Song Ownership-Tommy Makem

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Big Tim
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM

If Tommy Makem didn't write "Four Green Fields", who did?

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

it's a common error in spelling

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 10:06 AM

Just curious...isn't copyright and not copywright .Wouldn't a "copywright" be an artisan who workes with copies, sich as a playwright writes plays and so on ? Just have never seen it written that way .

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM

Pat,

Thanks. I am always aware or at least try to be of who wrote what and want to give credit where it belongs. Which begs the next question. If I do one of your songs, do I send you the check (How much?) or do I send it to a clearing house and hopefully you get it or a cut of it.

I want to do whats right here. But I won't give a dime to anyone who clains rights to anysong I know is in the public domain.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey.
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:23 PM

If you check out the Clancy Brothers website you will find many
traditional songs the Clancy Brothers claim copywright on.
Long before Irish music was as popular as it is now the Clancy's
were huge in the USA and they quickly became aware that few if
any of the songs they were singing were in copywight, and through
their publishing company in New York, Tiparm Music, they creamed
off substantial amounts of money from these songs, either in full,
or by arrangement.
My own personal gripe with the Clancy Brothers including the
cousin Robbie O'Connell is that having learned one of my songs
THE SICK NOTE in Waterford, Ireland, personally from me, they
performed and recorded this song in the USA under the title
DEAR BOSS , with writer credits TRA/Arranged ROBBIE O'CONNELL.
In the 60's The Clancy's could not have forseen the internet
and there was no way some eejit in Ireland could ever know this
especially if you change the title of the song.
This song word for word and note for note, is, and has allways
been my song, registered with PRS in 1973.
The collection agencies in the USA have the song registered as follows
BMI. DEAR BOSS. Mike Cross.
Harry Fox. DEAR BOSS. Trad. Arranged by Robbie O' Connell.
ASCAP. DEAR BOSS. Robbie O' Connell, and the Irish Rovers.
None of the above had any input whatsoever into this song but
royalties are paid to them to this day.
The trend of changing the title began with Noel Murphy in
England, MURPHY AND THE BRICKS, who I also personally gave
the song to still claims to have had some part in it's
composition, although he was at one stage obliged to remove
his name from the writers credits.
Regular Mudcatters will know the sordid story of my entanglement
with CELTIC MUSIC/ DAVE BULMER, fool that I was, but very soon
the above copywright infringers will be brought to account.
Whatever about Bulmer, I am Pissed Off, please forgive me, at
the way my songs, and there is more than one, are ripped of in
the USA, and elsewhere.
I have always written my songs for the pleasure they give me
and my audience, money matters little to me, but the wide world
of folk music seems to think differently.
In answer to the original question I do not know of any song
which was truly written by Tommy Makem/ The Clancy Brothers, and
I include FOUR GREEN FIELDS.
I should mention one truly honourabe exeption, SEAMUS KENNEDY,
who I don't know personally but whose singing I admire.
Seamus has both credited me as the author of his recording of DEAR BOSS, and has also sent me a royalty cheque, thanks Seamus.
I feel a few beers coming on,
Cheers,
Pat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

Andy,

Send me address and I'll send you the CD's my little Irish rebel band has. Understand that I am the only member of the band with any Scots ancestory. Sort of the fox in the musical henhouse.

I make no bones of the fact that had not the Scots invented the wheelbarrow the Irish might never have learned to walk on their hind feet.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Strupag
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM

I love Woodies attitude and can't believe that someone who has influenced so many generations can become greedy and basically unhonest about the genuine authorship of a song. I think I learned the song in primary school in Ballacheulish, Argyle.
My advice to you DonMex is to sing the song, record it and rightly categorise it as traditional. Remember that, if the Foxes want to take up any court action it is going to cost them money and it's a case that they just can't win. I doubt if you will hear a word; after all, the Corries have done it.
Maybe we all should not forget the power of a huge international family like Mudcatters has as a pressure group.
Just one thing though; When the song mentions "over the borders" it's not Mexico that they are talking about!

ps I'll be involved in Cuillin FM, a local Skye radio station when it starts up aroung August/Sept. If you send a copy I'll certainly give it a load of blasts. PM me.

Andy

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:19 PM

By god he holds his age well!

Rick

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM

1642!, definitely Makem. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:28 AM

One of the tunes for 'Jock o' Hazeldean' goes back to Playford in 1642!

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:07 AM

Thank you all for the good advice. I appreciate the effort of so many. I am still concerned of one thing tho'. If a young performer decideds to record and follows the "Correct" procedure for the recording licensed stuff through Harry Fox, that person may end up paying royalties to someone for a song that is labeled as owned by a particular author when it is clearly public domain. The license agreement doesn't state that it is an arrangement and the song is otherwise clear. Does Harry Fox or the faultily identified author return the money?

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: AKS
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:57 AM

And remember, 'copyright' on a printed matter (which might the case here?) is not the same thing as 'creator's right' to the original piece of art is.
Imagine: one collects all the traditional ballads (lyrics & notation) of the world and publishes them as a book, which of course would be copyright as a product of intellect, and should not be "reproduced" without permission.
Yet, it would NOT prevent anybody, anywhere to sing, record or arrange those ballads - even learned from that very book - at will, because the original copyright on them has expired!!

AKS

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:57 AM

Well, Don, at least you should check here and see what we can come up with. In the Origins and DTStudy threads, we do what we can to trace the history of songs, and I think we've had pretty good results. I get a kick out of reasearching the stories of songs, and I think I'm getting pretty good at it.
If there's an existing thread on a song, add your question there. If not, start a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:02 AM

Well when I go to the license form it turns up they want $ 80.00
a 1000.   Personally, I'd rather send the check to the author than give it to Harry Fox. Thanks for the advice you all. I'll let you know when the CD comes out. Probably in March.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST,Cookieless Rick
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:48 PM

Just record the damn song Don, and credit it "Trad" or "Trad..arrangement your band")

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has ME listed as the composer for "John Henry"! I've written them twice, but they must be convinced that I'm black, 200 years old, and American.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM

All the songs you mention are a great deal older than Tommy Makem. Just do a little research, and make sure that you don't copy his personal (copyrighted) versions of them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:42 PM

It saves a lot of hassle to just send them their cut. After all, it is small (6 cents per song per recording) and it is deductable. Both Eric Bogle and Utah Phillips were quite surprised to get my check for their songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:45 PM

When Woody Guthrie was sending out booklets of his own songs to people who requested the words he added a footnote which said something like ' under US law this song is copyrighted for 28 years
and if you sing it or give it to someone else you will instantly become a friend of our'n ', this is the right attitude to folk music.
Dave

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: nutty
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:36 PM

I think that is what you must do Don ...as long as you have evidence to the song being traditional.
In the case of Jock o Hazeldean This Bodleian Broadside printed by J.Moore of Belfast between 1852 and 1868 should be all the evidence you need.

Jock O'Hazeldean

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:19 PM

OK Dick, I believe that is true as well. Are you suggesting I just record what I want and wait until they come after me?

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM

Hey folks-

Anyone can copyright anything. It's only staking out a claim, and it's only binding when there's a lawsuit and court decision.

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM

Nutty, I'm sure that is true regarding arrangements. And I have no problem with getting paid for an arrangement. My concern now is this. Tommy Makem is listed as the author of clearly traditional songs that exist in Public Domain. He is not listed as "Author of the arrangement in the applied for license."

I know the story of Pete Seegar and Paul Campbell or Clayton and those arrangements. This is a little different to me some how. If Tommy Makem wants to come after me for doing Four Green Fields and paying the royalties thats fine. I played, I pay. But I better not hear from his attorney regarding any of the others unless I am playing his arrangement.

Actually I blame the Fox agency and not Tommy Makem at all. He deserves his royalties. But the Fox people should be accurate with their licenses when we are talking Public Domain.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: nutty
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:03 PM

Lots of artists do this Don but what they are copyrighting is their arrangement of the song/tune.
This was particularly common in the 60's/70's hence the Carthy court action re ownership of Scarborough Fair.

Subject: RE: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM

JOCK O' HAZELDEAN is a Child ballad (#293) and is in the DT.

~Masato

Subject: Origins: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:39 PM

My band is finishing up a new CD and it seemed prudent to check out The Fox agency for license rights. One of the many chestnuts we've decided to record is a Tommy Makem tune. Since Tommy's litigious nature is well known when it comes to his songs I checked the listing of his songs to see what he had written.

Imagine my surprise when Fox informs me that Tommy Makem is listed as the author of "Jock 'O'Hazeldean", "Tell My Ma", "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye", Killie Burn Brae,", "The Sailor Cut Down In His Prime", and many others.

When I pulled up the license listing for "Jock 'O' Hazeldean" Tommy Makem is clearly listed as the author of the song.

What gives here? Is this correct or am I not nuts and "Jock" is truly a very old song.

Or has Tommy rights to authorship of an arrangement and thats what is listed in the license agreement.

Don