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Why are singer-songwriters called folksingers?
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: M.Ted Date: 23 Oct 01 - 03:51 PM I would have thrown my chair at the bastard that said"I hate traditional music", but only after giving him a piece of my mind. Not that it would have made much difference. Just curious, does the :Big Time" promoter still do "folk" concerts in your town, or has he moved on to bigger and better things? |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,swoopy Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM Not all s/s are ever going to be labelled folksingers e.g Randy newman, Noel coward,or Mick Jagger The ones that get labelled do so because their songs SOUND LIKE FOLKSONGS. This is particularly likely if you use a guitar. Also if you use the same old chords, song stucture, or singing styles. So if it really matters to you (why should it?)either pillage alternative musical traditions or invent your own personal genre go for it (ps reminds me of the early Dylan lyric "You sound like a hillbilly We only want folk singers here") |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:34 AM Some of my favorite Folksinger/songwriters... Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Leadbelly, Dave Van Ronk, and yes, my dear, dear friend, Art Thieme. Why aren't they called Folksinger/songwriters? |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:03 PM musicmic - A number of the songwriters you regard as "real songwriters" seem to have greatly admired Dylan's work (John Lennon and George Harrison sure did) and some (or most) of them have covered his songs from time to time, so where does that leave your point? Then there are those hosts of "equally unattractive non-singers grunting and baring their souls"...like Jackson Browne? Oh yeah, for sure, he can't sing! :-) A classic example of both singer-songwriter and Dylan devotee, baring his soul, but definitely not grunting. But are they "folksingers"? Does it matter? Not that there weren't loads of lousy Dylan-wannabe's in the wings...there certainly were...but that is no reflection on the quality of what Dylan himself has accomplished. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: 53 Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:01 PM pete seeger is dead and gone, and there's nothing wrong with using mics, and pickups. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Art Thieme Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM Tom (Curmudgeon), Good post. True points there. Having been there myself I think, shows me the truth of it. I guess I'm here too much though-----I see a post by a naive but nice person and I just cannot help myself; I leap in a thread and come on too strong (probably) for my own good or the good of the points I want to make. Just want to grab 'em and say, "Please, look to the real thing. There is so very much that is there. As a folksinger, you have the luxury of being a time traveler. Any truck driver can go from here to there---but we can go any place and any time." Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: toadfrog Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:56 PM As a prize example of what folk music can be I suggest anyone who hasn't hear it listen to Roscoe Holcomb's "Little Bessie," which was on the film and record, The High Lonesome Sound (Folkways FA 2368, 1965) and probably on a Smithsonian CD today. John Cohen writes in the liner notes: "During the singing Roscoe becamd very involved with the song, so much so that his mood changed, and he didn't feel like singing at all for several days afterward." Not exactly a trouper. Could never have made it on the stage that way. Couldn't have competed with Bob Dylan. But being "involved with the song" is one of the things that makes folk music worth while. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:43 PM Just a comment... I ran a folk concert series booking people who sang traditional folk music for 27 years. After I stopped, a "big time" entrepreneur started offering a folk concert series in my town. I was invited to a meeting of folk presenters, and we were asked to introduce ourselves and give a little of our background. I said that I had run a folk concert series for 27 years, presenting traditional folk music, and that I'd be happy to do whatever I could to help any other series. The guy who runs the "folk" concert series turned to me in response and said, "I hate traditional folk music." I am reminded of a comment made by Peter LaFarge one night at the now defunct Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village. He said, start writing songs. Nobody is going to be interested in anyone who doesn't write songs anymore. Prophetic. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: curmudgeon Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:34 PM i had hoped to get into this thread sooner. Having just waded through the whole thing, I should rather offer some random thoughts rather than resopnd to any previous posts.. . i entered the world of folksong performance during the Great Folk scare of the '60s. There were a lot of fine folksingers out there singing traditional songs. once in a while, they'd sing a "new" song that took their fancy. Some of these caught on, some didn't.. . Some of them wrote their own songs as well,. both good and bad. sometimes the good ones were forgoten but the bad lived on, for a while.. . As being a folksinger came to be seen as a viable career (big bucks and babes) more youngsters took a stab at it.. . When I was cook, stickman,manager, auditioner at at coffee house in those times, I often asked the youngsters what kind of songs they did and was met with such responses as "I do Joanie's songs," or "We do Peter Paul and mary." I knew then that the age of folksong popularity was coming to an end.. . "Never ascribe to malice that which can be more easily explained by stupidity.". . This, in my opinion sums up the distinction between singer/songwriters and folksingers. It is, to a large extent the fault of the promoters, record producers and radio "personalities.".,none of whom have the slightest clue as to what constitutes folk music. . We have here a weekly "Folk Show" the host of which wouldn't recognise a traditional song if it bit her on the *. We also have another "Folk Show" which presents a wonderful panoply of tradtional songs intermingled with a few conteporary offerings. This is what its all about.. . Essentially, iy all has to mixed together. That which is taken up by the traditional purveyors of folk song and/or the "people," will be the folksongs of the future. Sadly though, there;s an awful lot of crap that will make it through. (I still cannot abide the singing of what must be the most universal "folksong," Happy Birthday). . I fear that I'm beginning to ramble. i might just come back when I've had more sleep.. . Curmudgeonly yours -- Tom |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:24 PM Nude Morris Dancing...The mind boggles.
Though actually they did have that at a Late Night Extra at a Folk Festival a few years ago. Well, nearly naked. There were a few balloons about. Not a pretty sight. Definitely not in The Tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:16 PM Just curious... I have no problem finding things in the folk bin at music stores that aren't traditional. There aren't any folk bins... an elastic definition has no impact on my shopping... I buy my CDs at folk festivals, or over the Internet.. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Bill D Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM if you started a thread about "nouvelle cusine" or "art deco" or "classic autos" you would get many similar arguments. (or even 'antiques', though there are certain standards adopted there,) The thing is, as I keep saying, a name or category needs to MEAN something. If it can be co-opted by anyone who wants a handy rack to hang his hat on, it soon means nothing...as has happened with 'folk'. We CANNOT ever have a precise, unchanging 'definition'.....but we sure can be aware when gratuitious changes are made to a song, or when a style is changed until earlier perfomers would barely recognize it.(This does automatically not make it 'bad',just different) I still maintain that there is a need to have a way to describe those songs & music styles that developed before, or away from...or in spite of, the music 'industry'....recognizing that there will ALWAYS be gray areas. There will, though, ALWAYS be stuff that seems to 'mostly' partake of the concepts that created the idea of folk/trad in the first place. If you are not willing to have categories that mean something, just imagine a radio station that advertises it plays 'music'...and expects it's listeners to absorb Druid Madrigals, Bob Dylan, Uncle Dave Macon, Yma Sumac, Yanni and Bing Crosby as a mix! You can argue philosophy all day, but I want to FIND my favorites. Having something I DON'T like mis-labeled is a durn nuisance......
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: M.Ted Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:14 PM They have entertainment of all kinds at the Malls--if you remember "Tiffany" she became a teen pop star overnight, by playing at malls-- As to the Public Entertainment lisense business--in the states, each state regulates certain aspects of the establishements that serve alcohol, but for the most part, lisensing and regulation fall completely under the jurisdiction of local authorities. For a lurid and titillating example: In New Jersey bars, Go-Go dancers in a must wear a bra, wheraeas across the river in Pennsylvania, the breasts may be completely exposed, as long as pasties are worn to cover the nipples. However, if no alcohol is served, the state has no authority, and performers may be completely nude, if it is permitted by city, county, or town authorities. I presumably, this extends to Morris Dancing, as well. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:55 PM They let people play guitars down at the Mall in your country M.Ted? If we could dump the Public Entertainment Licence requirementsw here in England, I'd happily put up with any number of Traditional Music Police. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: M.Ted Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM I like old music, old tradtionals, all that stuff, and, as we all do, I take from where I like, what I like--I am always curious as to where something has come from and how it got to be the way it is, and am always very interested in the characteristic elements of the musical genre-- However, I am sick to death of the "Traditional Music Police" mentality that seeks to include or exclude based on how closely someone corresponds to a label--and I am sick to death of people who try to pass themselves off as "Folkier than thou art", and I believe that they do nothing but harm to everybody who plays and listens to the music-- Case in point are the people who are critical of the "Oh, Brother Where Art Thou" soundtrack because the contemporary recordings by commercial artists are not "authentic"-- rather than appreciating, and trying to build, on what it has done to promote this kind of music, the every dwindling numbers of "traditional music" people are complaining about it-- Kids are hearing this music in unbelievable numbers--and when the listen to music, they want to play it, listen to more, learn more, write their own, and I am very excited about that prospect--What I am afraid of is that when these kids play"Man of Constant Sorrow" on their electric guitars, down at the Mall, one of the "Traditional Music Police" is going to collar them afterwards and give them Hell-- |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: LR Mole Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:19 AM "Oh, let me tell you of the story of a co-ed named Courtney Seemed to walk down the hall alone Was she memorizin'Poe? She was not musin',no, she Wouldn't get off the cellular phone! And will they ever shut up, no, they'll never shut up... (etc.) (new folk song by the Serfston Trio) |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:48 AM Great song there from Harvey there!
I'm not sure that it is possible to draw a clear line between a song that tells a story that illuminates or explains our lives, and one that talks about the troubles in the life of the person making the song. That could imply that in order to make a song about trouble, and to do it in a way that was in the tradition, you couldn't have experienced it yourself, and that is clearly absurd.
As a rule of thumb, I think that the traditional way to respond to public troubles has been to produce new songs, but when it comes to finding ways of dealing with personal troubles the tendency has been more to rework existing songs and reassemble fragments of songs.
But when it comes to rules of thumb I'm all fingers. The crucial thing with any song is, is it a good song, and is the singer singing it in a way that does it justice. And of course there is no reason or why anybody should feel that they should only sing or listen to "folk songs". There are plenty of great songs that aren't "folk songs" For example, Harvey's song there.
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,harvey andrews Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:16 AM I'll crack this typing lark one day! Amended lyric follows; ANON "There's no name on the stone I sleep under today There's no book that can tell of my time But you know me so well when you sing roundelay For you're singing my tune and my rhyme I am "Anon", you know me that way I had something to say about life in my day So I made a song, and somewhere the sound of it Goes round and round, to be lost and then found And that it is the way that life is That is the way it is with songs
It was in the alehouse I would sing with the rest
So they learned every word and they sang every note
It was twenty years gone when our Parson came home
So I planted and ploughed'till my bones bowed and bent
There's no names on the stones we sleep under today Harvey Andrews. Haska Music. 2000
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,harvey andrews Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:03 AM As a great generalisation I've always felt that the songwriters who tell stories that illuminate or explain our lives, work, community etc are in a direct line from the songs of the past that we call folk music. The songwriters who sing about their own inner angst and relationship problems aren't.
"ANON" There's no name on the stone I sleep under today
It was in the alehouse I would sing with the rest
So they learned every word and they sang every note
It was twenty years gone when our Parson came home
So I planted and ploughed'till my bones bowed and bent
There's no names on the stones we sleep under today
Harvey Andrews. Haska Music. 2000 |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: SeanM Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:35 AM Au contraire, MudWeasel!
The White Collar Holler THERE is your tech shanty! M |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: musicmick Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:58 AM I think that singer/songwriters should be called what they are, poets with guitars. This whole flood of s/s's is a reaction to Dylan. When he became successful, millions of equaly unattractive non-singers grabbed flattop Gibsons and started grunting, baring their souls and waiting for lightning to strike them too. Real singer/songwriters dont call themselves folksingers. Jobim, Brel, Lehrer,Matt Dennis, Carol King,Jimmy Webb are called songwriters because they write real songs, finely crafted songs. Mac Davis and Willie Nelson dont have the need or the desire to cloak their work as "folk". Wasn't Hoagie Carmichael a singer/songwriter? You bet he was. We just dont call him a s/s because his songs were commercialy successful and well written. Come to think of it, I never heard Lennon or Mc Cartney called singer/songwriters either. Do I detect a pattern? |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM Ferrara, (Good to see you back here.) Great post !!! Art |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: M.Ted Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:06 PM Ferrara, I am not at all sure about this: "That's because they are memorable, authentic sounding and heartfelt, very singable (by more people than just Craig!) and evoke wonderful images of traditional activities and themes. These are what Mary Cliff calls "Music In The Tradition." I think that none of this qualifies it as folk music, or traditional music, even if it is very good music, and very enjoyable music--In order to be really traditional, it has to be a part of the tradition, and not just sound like what is thought of as part of the tradition. As to the "folksong" deal, well, it has to be accepted by the "folk"--there is another thread, , which is "What did you sing as a kid?" and these songs are really much more folksongs than about anything else, and they are neither heartfelt or any of those "wonderful" things that you talk about--they are memorable, though--
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:18 PM You still have people singing songs in coffee-houses in the States? Of course I suppose you maybe don't have the Public Entertainment Licence problem that'd make that illegal in coffee-houses in England. Or tea-rooms for that matter.
Just back from a trip to Italy where I learned that the Italian for Fire is "Fuoca". I think I'm going to talk about "Fuoca Music" in future instead. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Ferrara Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM To the songwriters amongst us: There are songs and songs. If you are writing/making up songs that have the style and "feel" of any form of traditional music, I don't think most people would have a quarrel with your calling yourself a folk musician. Craig Johnson, of Double Decker String Band, has written some of the finest songs around, as far as Bill and I are concerned. That's because they are memorable, authentic sounding and heartfelt, very singable (by more people than just Craig!) and evoke wonderful images of traditional activities and themes. These are what Mary Cliff calls "Music In The Tradition." There's another category of singer-songwriters, though. These are the people who make up long, rambling, relatively tuneless and complex songs about the lint in their navels; sing their diaries; or as one friend puts it, about "the People-ness of People." Peace, love, angst and brown rice are fine in their place but they often tend to lead to a sameness in the music. This type of musician is NOT writing songs "in the tradition." Songs that are too hard to comprehend and remember, or that don't have universal appeal, have seldom gotten into the tradition unless first, they were written down; and second, they were pretty spectacular. So, my point is: on the one hand, I feel that many singer/songwriters can genuinely be considered folk musicians. On the other hand, I don't think some "folk" singer-songwriters are writing music that has much in common with what we know as folk. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Larry124 Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:50 PM The Old Coot Lament: Used to be, there was city music and country music. The country music was folk. The Revival added city music and "community/movement" (whatever), to folk. Nowadays just about anyone can write a song. And does. And performs it publicly. And records it. And no one else ever plays a cover version. The guys in the coffeehouse audience wish they could play that way, or maybe just get laid. The gals in the audience wish they could play that way, or maybe at least be able to say that they didn't go out and view a Bruce Willis movie. There's still a little community though. It's in forums like this one, warts and all. I'm glad. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,MudWeasel Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM My rebuttal to Toadfrog, not a quote, my own words:
Of all deleterious influences on folk-song, the most corrosive and deadly are the people who think that a folk-song ahs a fixed and unchanging form. I've got more to rant about, but i think I'll let it slide for now, I'm supposedly at work here. (Nobody's ever written a Tech-Writer Chantey so far as I can tell.) -MudWeasel |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jim Krause Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM Lately I have been calling myself a floksinger out of convenience. It is a convenient label for audiences to hang on me since they are going to immediately come to that conclusion the instant I walk on stage toting my accousitc guitar. OK, fine with me. I'd say about half of my material is public domain, and the other half is original. Does that make some one like me a folk singer? I don't know, and I don't really care, since the whole point is the song not the label. If the promoter, the listener, or the radio DJ needs to label me folk so they'll have a place to file my record in the library, then I can live with the label, whether it is technically accurate, or not. Certainly the Smithsonian, or the Library of Congress, wouldn't consider me folk. That suits me fine, too. Meanwhile, back at the ol' Bar S, I have guitar to practice and another show to get ready for. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: M.Ted Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM Of course someone writes everything--writing is the process of conceiving, creating, and finishing--I would say that it is possible to conceive, create, and finish a song without paper ever having been involved--And these great ballad that have been transmitted, orally, perhaps,if they were not "written" exactly what were they? As to Bronson,just read this quote, "Of all deleterious influences on folk-song, the most corrosive and deadly is the consciousness of audience appeal" and remember that the word "audience" just means "people"--How could a "folk song" be a "folksong" if it did not appeal to audiences?-- Folk music, whatever it is, is something that is embraced by the masses, kept alive by the masses, and, probably created, if not by the masses, at least among the masses. That means that it isn't exclusive, pure, or noble--music has always performed by musicians, and, since time began, they have had a propensity for talking a buck where they could get it, playing a dance, singing a song, making a record--and that is what has kept these folksongs around--you can reuse, recycle, cut and paste--and, strangely enough, when you leave them to rest for a while, they get put back together again-- |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:53 AM Oops.. my computer cloned that message.. don't know how to erase one. You don't think that old-time folk singers didn't choose songs that Uncle Fred and Bert really liked, down at the General Store? |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:49 AM All Right, All Ready! Don't be so literal. I suppose that I am a singer/songwriter, myself and I don't literally "Write" songs. I don't even know how to write songs. Perhaps I am a singer/song-thinker-upper? Maybe my musical illiteracy makes me more authentic and pure? When I do a concert, do I alternate between being a folk singer on those songs that I have learned through the RECORDED tradition (forget aural tradition for most of us, unless you considerate it the aural tradition when you learn the song from someone who learned it off a record)and then become a singer/song-thinker-upper on the songs that I've written? If you think that most song-thinker uppers who play the folk circuit are in it for the money, you are crazy. Money?, where is that? Do people who are primarily traditional folk singers who write songs too have split personalities? This whole discussions seems to center around singer/songwriters who may love folk music, but have other creative desires within them, and then are considered impure. Music is to lift the spirit. Paul McCartney is no less of a man than Clarence Ashley was... |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:48 AM All Right, All Ready! Don't be so literal. I suppose that I am a singer/songwriter, myself and I don't literally "Write" songs. I don't even know how to write songs. Perhaps I am a singer/song-thinker-upper? Maybe my musical illiteracy makes me more authentic and pure? When I do a concert, do I alternate between being a folk singer on those songs that I have learned through the RECORDED tradition (forget aural tradition for most of us, unless you considerate it the aural tradition when you learn the song from someone who learned it off a record)and then become a singer/song-thinker-upper on the songs that I've written? If you think that most song-thinker uppers who play the folk circuit are in it for the money, you are crazy. Money?, where is that? Do people who are primarily traditional folk singers who write songs too have split personalities? This whole discussions seems to center around singer/songwriters who may love folk music, but have other creative desires within them, and then are considered impure. Music is to lift the spirit. Paul McCartney is no less of a man than Clarence Ashley was... |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Ferrara Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:18 AM Thanks to so many people for your well expressed ideas. I usually avoid these discussions because if I want to discuss any variation of the question "What is the REAL folk music," I have my excellent husband, Bill D, right here to give me the true and final answer.... ;-) Anyway of all the fine things said in this thread, the one I liked most and am most in sympathy with, is the one from Bronson, that toadfrog quoted. I almost never go to folk concerts. A major reason (aside from being broke all the time...), is that they usually consist of folk music "presented" by performers, rather than music sung by folks. For me the music that means the most is where the musician is totally connected to the song. Hard to describe. Well this has nothing to do with singer-songwriters ... except that often they tend to sing music that is personal, but not authentic in the above sense. I think BatGoddess had a good point: most of their music will never become folk songs because no one but the author can sing them. To offer my answer to the basic question of "why ss/s call themselves folksingers", I suspect that a lot of them started out playing folk-style music, and so still think of themselves as folksingers. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: musicmick Date: 15 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM Ah Kitty, it's years since I heard the name, Dave Calderhead. He was called the Singing Toby Jug. What a sweet and gentle soul he was. I always stayed with Dave at his flat on the Potabello Road, whenever I worked in London. There are many professional folksingers by anyone's definition. Shantymen on ships were folksingers, a cantor in a synagogue is a folksinger (he even gets tenured), music therapists, campfire leaders, choir directers, labor union singers ("songs to fan the flame of discontent") My work is, primarily, as a folksinger. I do classroom programs to illustrate history through song and I can promise you that the students sing as much as I do. I led the campfires at the Philadelphia Folk Festival for thirty years and I never did a solo. I do play-parties for pre-schoolers and they do all the work.(I think that Barney qualifies as a professional folksinger even though I am older than four and a half) |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: toadfrog Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:55 PM 1. It is certainly not correct to say that "all folk songs were written by somebody." Many of them were composed by complete illiterates, and were very old by the time they got written down. 2. As an amateur folk singer, who does not do gigs, I respectfully submit that there is a problem, not only with people who compose songs and call them "folksongs," but with the whole concept of singing "folk songs" to make money or please a crowd. I submit that some of the best were essentially amateurs until "discovered" quite late in life, e.g. Mance Lipscom, Hobart Smith, Roscoe Holcomb, John Hurt, and Jesse Fuller. And it seems to me the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem sounded a whole lot better back in the 1950's, when they were discovered, than later when they sang concerts for thousands. Finally, once again I quote Bronson, who wrote:Bronson, Bertrand Harris, "Words and Music in "Child" Ballads," reprinted in The Ballad as Song 112, 128 (U.C. Press, 1969). So many today are becoming aware of folk-song through the medium of stage, screen, radio or phonograph that it is well to insist again and again that most of what they hear is at least as far from genuine folk-singing as the broadsides are from traditional ballads. In strict truth, there is and can be no such thing as a professional folk-singer. A singer who has his livelihood to gain through that medium can never consider the song as an end He must attract and hold the attention of many people, and inevitably he must become aware of those particular aspects of his song and of his performance that arouse the liveliest and most immediate response in the majority of his listeners. Inevitably, he will come to emphasize these elements of repertory and of style: so that, the longer he sings, and the greater his success as an entertainer, the further from genuine folk-singing will be his performance. Of all deleterious influences on folk-song, the most corrosive and deadly is the consciousness of audience appeal. This is by no means to say that genuine folk-singers do not often bring to their singing a high degree of individuality. But this personal contribution is properly involuntary, inescapable , and below the level of conscious intention. It is an attribute of the song, as in their singing the song exists. A recent collector in Alabama, Byron Arnold, has significantly registered his impressions in this regard. "These songs," he writes, "were sung quietly, naturally, never dramatically, and entirely without the mannerisms and cliches of the concert soloist. It was as if each song, as I heard it, was a creation by the singer for the satisfaction of an inner compulsion. Here is a touchstone of genuineness for our native tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:09 PM And that, song is it by Dave Calderhead? If it's not and noone knows who it's by, I've got a feeling it might be one of Sydney Carter's. It's good enough to be anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:06 PM I like it, Kitty!
Of course since the mobiles came in I can sing with my hand to my ear and phone home at the same time. Has anyone written any songs for singing into a mobile phone? I mean the kind of songs a self-respecting finger-in-the-ear folkie would care to sing?
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Herga Kitty Date: 15 Oct 01 - 08:49 PM Of all the cons in England the folking is the best And I've got a flat in Chelsea where I'll lay me down to rest And a-folking I will go, and a-folking I will go. Though I work in the city boys, and in the town was raised There's country airs round Regent's Park, may Cecil Sharp be praised, And a-folking I will go... Though I'm seasick on the Serpentine and it hurts my arms to row When I sing a shanty boys, you can hear the whalefish blow I'll buy me a melodeon, some whistles and some spoons, And I'll go round with morris men sight reading all the tunes We'll morris dance on every green and ale in every bar, And then drive round from site to site in a little Morris car Now where I get such tunes as this you may not understand, I've always got [hand over ear!] a Japanese transistor in me hand... Learned by osmosis from the singing of Dave Calderhead, Hammersmith Morris, a very long time ago (ie before microchips took over from transistors). Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: ddw Date: 15 Oct 01 - 08:37 PM MCFat —— went to hear Eric Bogle Saturday night and he passed along one his wife had told him. What's the difference between a singer/songwriter and an insurance policy. Sooner or later the insurance policy matures and starts earning money. cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,Wave Date: 15 Oct 01 - 06:44 PM If the only folk songs are those written in ancient times then the music cannot be fully 'of the people'. None of the people I know who sing mining songs or sea shanties have ever been down a mine or had to earn a living by fishing. Most people I know who go to folk sessions are teachers, parents, computer geeks, community workers, carers, partners (and some combinations of the above!). Why should we not accept into the fold songs that express the value or otherwise of these people's lives? The folk who are writing songs about these experiences are doing so because NO-ONE ELSE IS GOING TO WRITE THE SONGS FOR THEM, NOR ARE THEY GOING TO EMERGE THROUGH THE MISTS OF TIME. And in fact, the same goes for women's songs, songs of migrants, and the experiences of young people, to name but a few 'subsets' of our society. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Mike Regenstreif Date: 15 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM Frank, With very rare exceptions, most record companies do all they can to avoid labelling singer-songwriters as "folksingers." Commercially, the "folksinger" label does not sell records. Your theory about copyrights also doesn't hold up. Most traditional songs are recopyrighted each time they're recorded. Run a traditional song through the BMI or ASCAP data bases and you'll find that some have been "written" dozens and dozens of times. As others have pointed out, there are many songwriters whose work is deeply rooted in traditional music. Other singer-songwriters are often called "folksingers" when their performing careers are on what is known as the "folk" circuit: clubs, coffeehouses, festivals, etc.; or because they play and perform in an acoustic vein that has been identified, over the past 40+ years, as "folk." Mike Regenstreif |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,Frank Date: 15 Oct 01 - 05:58 PM Here's my theory. Record companies traditionally have operated in the "red". They needed money from ancillary publishing firms. Folk songs are not copyrightable, They are in the public domain, therefore don't bring in any money. Original songs do. They can be published and promoted. Many folksongs were copyrighted by publishers but there's only so many that can be done without problems. With songwriters, original material can be exploited easier. Hence, we have the singer-songwriter. Artists have a dual value to a record company. The record company calls the singer-songwriter a folksinger so they can sell 'em. True with all labels that have singer-songwriters on them. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 01 - 05:29 PM "Of course all songs are written by someone."
Not strictly true. All songs get written down by someone, except the ones that don't. The people who made the songs didn't always write them down. Sometimes they couldn't.
As for records, I buy records (and that includes CDs and tapes - I call them all records) three ways. I buy them of guest at folk clubs who have impressed me. I buy them at folk festivals from specialised dealers. And I look through the mixed up boxes of vinyl in charity shops and boot fairs and jumble sales. I tend to steer clear of the kind of record shops here they have records in categories like easy listening and country and comedy and so forth.
I don't think I've sung a song in years except ones that I have heard someone else sing first. Apart from the ones I've made myself, and I'd never presume to call them folksongs. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: musicmick Date: 15 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM Nice point about Cyril Tawney and Peter Belamy who write what I call "folk" songs (note the quotation marks). To their number, we can add Ewen MacCal, John Connerly, Bruce Phillips, Stan Rogers and a host of others. Their songs are written in traditional styles and with respect for the cultures they represent. I have sung with all of them, and I cann attest to their love of traditional music. Cyril, who is a truly great songwriter, is a student of British folklore. I hope and expect that some of his songs pass into tradition as has Ewen's "Shoals of Herring" and Woodie's "This Land is Your Land". That determination will be made by the folk, not by us in discussion. I should add that folksongs can be written. When students concoct a parody lampooning their teachers ("Joy to the World, the Teacher's Dead" is a good example), when political activists adapt a song to express their positions ("Woke Up This Morning With my Mind on Freedom"), when kids make up an anti-Barney song ("I Love You, You Love Me, Barney gave me HIV") they are writing their own folksongs, but only because they are presenting a communal view. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Tyke Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:29 PM What do you call a singer songwriter with out a girlfriend? HOMELESS! Give them a home call them folkies! Oh I forgot about Cyril Tawney and Peter Bellamy and well you name them there are lots. Oh don't you go forgetting Cecil Sharp re writing Folk songs to clean them up a bit. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Genie Date: 15 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM Good one, MC Fat! |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,deskjet Date: 15 Oct 01 - 01:32 PM The good songs become folk songs |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: GUEST,MC Fat Date: 15 Oct 01 - 10:21 AM Whats the difference between a singer/songwriter and a puppy ? After so long the puppy stops whining !! |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Tedham Porterhouse Date: 15 Oct 01 - 10:09 AM Rick, For what it's worth, Pete Seeger says that if you use microphones, not to mention pickups, you're no longer an "acoustic" musician. |
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Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi From: Genie Date: 15 Oct 01 - 06:06 AM What I want to know is why people who play the guitar or piano, etc. (perhaps brilliantly) and sing (perhaps wonderfully) and write some (not all or even the best) of the songs they record and sing -- why are these people usually called "singer/songwriters?" Why not "guitarist/singers" or "pianist/singer/songwriters?" In the 1930's through 50's, many singers or instrumentalists did write some of their own songs, but they were seldom called "songwriters," if they were mainly singers or instrumental musicians. I still wonder about how this strange label came to be and why it is so often applied to people for whom songwriting is one of their lesser accomplishments. Genie |
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