Hi Max: Personal edit button?

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM

ROFLMAO...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM

Dunno about "just jokin'", John. I really should see an optician. I'm OK on this computer but reading a book is another matter, especially in poor light. I've taken to using a discarded pair or reading glasses for some things, eg. I was trying to solder a couple of components on some 0.1" strip board. I couldn't see what I was doing without them... I'm guessing it could just be the standard "old age deteriation" but I'm a bit worried that light seems to play such a part and my night vision driving a car with headlamps coming towards me is noy as good as it was - have been wondering what a cateract would cause...

-----
Onto the use of terms, I have seen the other end of the scale where we just used single letters for the action required. Not too bad until you find one programmer has decided D stands for Display and another on the same system that D stands for Delete...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:39 AM

Jon -

why (at least) I miss so much ...

Its spelled O.p.t.o.m.e.t.r.i.s.t.?

I just tell people "I'm old, I'm entitled, get over it."

Just jokin' of course.

The preview screen here is truly just a preview. You can't change anything in what pops up so you can't logically call it an "Edit" place - you have to go back to your "Submit Message" box to make any changes, so it would appear that "Preview" is the proper name as currently implemented. The suggestion for a rename might well apply where it's implemented a little differently.

Wanting it to be something else is sort of a personal problem? For some, a label like "what it's gonna look like if you post it like it you typed it" might be more meaningful maybe, but that seems a little much.

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:47 PM

You would have to change 'preview' to 'display and edit' to have the same logical meaning - as the write is not 'committed' at that stage, i.e. it is not yet part of the database, and exiting at that stage would lose the post.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

hmmm, her logic is certainly interesting. Changing "preview" (what you are about to post) to read "edit" (what you have already posted) eh? ;-)

-----
One thing I don't understand with preview is why (at least) I miss so much. As an example, I "always" use preview if I use more than one (eg a phrase in italics) bit of HTML. On the Annexe code in the preview page I print a line between two "HRs" that says something like:

"If all HTML codes are off, this line will appear in plain text"

And I can still fail to notice that line is in bold or whatever.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:47 PM

I do love watching that woman work.

Mick

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM

If you're answering my question Max, "would it be hard to do up?" then glad to hear it! I didn't ask if you would do it. I know better than that. I do think changing the "preview" button to read "edit" would probably encourage more frequent usage but I would NEVER presume to suggest that you do something like that. l,h

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:08 AM

What the heck. If Max is offended by the ongoing of this thread he can, you know, edit it. *grin*

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:47 PM

I've not seen that one either Clinton although I did find something similar when I looked at phpbb yesterday. That one allows the admins to decide whether deletions are allowed as well as edits. The built in rule for a deletion by a user is just that - it is dissallowed if the post has been replied to.

I've not looked at which way they implement it. Probably they take advantage of a post having a sequentially allocated unique ID or use the date/time stamp, either of wich could work but when thinking about that approach, it did lead me to wonder what you do in this scenario...

Lets say a post was replied to and that reply was then deleted (and there are no other replies). Would you say that the earlier post no longer classes as being replied to as the reply no longer exists or would you take the historical view and say it was once replied to?

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:58 PM

"seems like an implied criticism OF Max .... "
"seem like arse-kicking Max..."
Well it's not... so get over it... I'm sure if MAX felt he was being kicked, he'da said something... your indignation on his behalf is unnecessary... He's a big boy... he can speak for himself... His silence says more than your whining and sucking ever will

" Please people just be satisfied with what you've got"
What a wanker way to live ones life....

"edit option on your own posts only until somebody responds"
That's neat... I've never seen a site like that, but I have seen edit option that don't get NOTED until someone replies to your post... after that you get the tag note as I mentioned above...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:01 PM

CH, why not start a new thread to discuss edit features in general? Continuing this thread, titled the way it is, does seem like arse-kicking Max when he's down enough as it is.

kat

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: nutty
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

I agree with you Susan. Keeping the discussion going seems like an implied criticism OF Max .... but then some of the people posting here are always very ready to criticise Max.


The grass may always seem greener but as we know that is rarely the case.

Please people just be satisfied with what you've got.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

Why?

We're not discussing This Place... we're discussing Edit Post features in general...

Get over yourself Wysiwyg...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:05 AM

I think it's really insulting to keep this discussion going, when Max has already said NO.

~S~

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:55 AM

Allowing self-edit until a response is posted, but not afterwards makes a lot of sense ~ moreso than having a time limit. That thought occurred to me when I first saw this thread.

I can certainly live without the self-edit, though, and learned from this thread that simply reposting a corrected posting (right away, I assume) can have the same desired effect.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:00 AM

"a few boards where you have a personal edit option on your own posts only until somebody responds"

Actually, that seems a sensible compromise - IF it could be implemented easily here.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM

"I did notice is that they maintain a "post edit" count."

So that they can put at the end of an edited post...

"This post was last edited by *User name* for a total of *number* times"

For what ever reason....

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:13 AM

FWIW, I've just looked through the code for the open source phpbb which is one of the most popular boards. They just replace the same as me. One difference in thier update funtion I did notice is that they maintain a "post edit" count.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:56 AM

I some could work that way if one felt there was a need to backtrack. The only ones I've coded are the ones on the Annexe and folkinfo and they simply replace the old message with the new one (UPDATE SQL clause).

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: mooman
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

I personally don't have any problem with it as it stands at the moment.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:42 AM

"Look out how you use proud words
They walk off proudly,
They wear long boots
They wear hard boots
They can't hear you calling
Look out how you use proud words." (Carl Sandberg)

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:29 AM

JiK described what I was told -- that deletions aren't actually deleted -- that every version of an edit is still ultimately saved, despite what may be accessible to the average BB reader.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Dave'swife
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:05 AM

I belong to a few boards where you have a personal edit option on your own posts only until somebody responds. Works for me

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM

There is a preview button where you can inspect your text before you post.
I don't always use it..., but its there.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:23 AM

Jon -

I wasn't intending to re-raise the issue, and I think we're more in agreement on the technicalities than I was able to make clear in my musings. My bad writing. Feel free to ignore.

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 04:38 AM

So it's not the (theoretical) feature that'd be the problem... it'd be the people...

I agree...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 04:35 AM

John (in K), I think we are talking entirely at cross purposes. Let me repharse what I was talking about as an "export to HTML" function. Perhaps you are with me now.

I'm not with you at all with your last paragraph. If you are referring to whether or not the feature should be added to Mudcat, please read my first post in this thread.

As I indicated in my previous post, as far as I'm concerned the decision of whether it should be added to Mudcat has been answered and that issue is dead. That said and now I think you are re-raising that issue at least as a principle with me, FWIW, I disagree with your reasoning.

Every system I use that allows editing has a preview and a means of getting assistance from a mod/clone. On these systems, it has been judged the extra facility is useful and it is used, even by careful posters who proof read. etc.

For the record, as it happens my own judgement call here would be not to have an edit button here but that would be based on the nature of certain threads and posters at Mudcat - I could only see it as becoming the basis of other rows - you changed it -it said that, no it said that, etc. followed by screeds of debate as to where or not somone should have the edit button removed, whther it was a good idea, etc.

In other words, it's not that the idea need be a bad one in principle as some suggest but that I believe it's value is very much dependant on the maturity of the board.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:26 PM

Jon -

I don't know where the info quoted came from, but many "edit" facilities, as used in Word processors for example, retain all of the information in the original, place any new text in a trailer, and place pointers within the text to say "where to go next." This can result in file sizes that are at least the sum of all the versions, and that can get pretty badly "twisted" - and hence slow - in playback.

In older versions of Word, at least, if you "allow fast saves" in your setup, what gets saved is the original document with an appended record of changes in the trailer (end of the file). It was not uncommon to see a "fast save" version 2 or 3 times the size of the actual current document - which you'd get if you did a normal full save so that the changes were actually inserted in place and all the pointers dropped out. This may still be the case in current Word versions, but I learned to prohibit fast saves several versions ago, so I haven't looked.

New versions of Word do allow extensive "change tracking" and if you turn it on, all prior versions are contained in the current document, along with identification of who made each change and when it was made. This is closer to what's done in most database information systems.

Since most web servers are set up using database information, it is most likely that an edit is a new record. The pointer to the data item that is a "post" can be switched from the original record to point to the new one that replaces it, but the old record is seldom actually removed. Deletion merely means that there's no longer a pointer to tell you to look at it - but it remains on the server, at least until some sort of "purge" is done. Even those who don't deal much with database files may see this in an email program, where you need to periodically "compact files" to get rid of the dead records.

The actual amount of excess disk space required for edits is probably insignificant relative to the traffic in new posts, but allowing large numbers of gratuitous edits can significantly increase the number of "dead records." As in the case of the recent mudcat data server troubles, if you need to reconstruct things and/or correct link errors, the presence of even a few such unlinked records can horribly complicate recovery, since you have to determine whether there's no pointer to a record because it was deleted (edited) or because the pointer wasn't recovered in the reconstruction.

I'm not sure I'd agree specifically with the statement that editing makes the files a lot larger, but it certainly can make them a lot more complex and a lot more trouble to maintain.

Maybe John Hardly can provide more information, but I don't have any problem putting "no edits" on the "good side" and "edits" on the "not so good side" for what look to me like sound technical reasons. Just because you can write a simple program to add a feature doesn't enter too strongly in the argument about whether you should add a feature.

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM

"you seem to be saying that you speak for everyone else"

Oh no no no!   Wouldn't DARE to do that... It's more that I'm speaking in terms of general concepts and such...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:04 PM

John (Hardly), The thread question is dead as far as I'm concerned but I've just another read and was wondering where you got this from:

I was once told that an edited post is a MUCH bigger file than would seem proportionate to the size of the post.

I suspect you are confusing it with editing a post using an external editor such as MS Word to produce HTML (as opposed to just straight copy/ paste your text from one to another) to use in a post or for a web page for that matter.

The amount of junk created in that process can be quite horrendous.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:51 PM

I've occasionally used the "Edit Post" button on the Tweedboard to correct an inadvertant typo ~ never to substantially change what I said. It's a nice feature but not by any means a deal-breaker; I can live without it well enough, and I certainly accept Max's desire not to get bogged down in an effort to provide such a minor nicety.

After all, he's got more important things to do, like restoring the correct chronological order (and hence the stream-of-consciousness "logic") to all those messages in the "You Must Leave Now!" thread...

;^)

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:38 PM

"wrong again"? how can that be, when I haven't yet been wrong for the first time? ;>) (I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken...)

ah...perhaps it was my use of 'triple'....quadruple? Please, do prove me wrong for the first time!

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM

We already have a workable and working method for correcting blunders. If you simply re-post your message with appropriate correction of errors, you will produce a "duplicate post." Duplicates are cleared when and if they are found, just as a matter of keeping the threads reasonable free of redundancy.

You can also, and should, go to the help page, provide an address for the post and request "I did a boo-boo so I reposted a corrected version. Please delete the first post." I have found that the requested deletions will generally be promptly made.

Anyone having problems with wanting to change what they said should perhaps rethink their "SOM" (Shooting Off Mouth) syndrome. If you said something you shouldn't have, an apology is in order. If you said something that was factually incorrect, then a correction is in order. Common courtesy demands that your apology/correction should cite the error and that the error itself should remain where others can assess how guilty you should feel and whether your apology is sincere enough to be accepted.

If you're saying things that make you feel so guilty that they need to be hidden by deletion, there is a simple process that will solve your problem - it's called "growing up."

John

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM

Ain't you guys got day jobs? Holy Moly!


A

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:25 PM

Careful, Clinton, you seem to be saying that you speak for everyone else. Kevin was very clear he was speaking from his perspective.

Into the corner with you, lad, and don't come out until Mum calls for dinner.

Mick

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM

"which for my purpooses is in the same league as the Mudcat"

I'm not talking in terms of YOUR purposes... I'm speaking of a more general, objective attitude... That Mudcat gets your meat movin' is all well and good for you... but that doesn't make it mean anything to anyone else...

Nor should it...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

When everything is special, everything is special. Special in a different kind of way.

I'm still waiting for a pointer to any forum/website/bulletin board, call-it-what-you-will, which for my purpooses is in the same league as the Mudcat. They may exist, but any time I've asked and Clinton (for example) came up with suggestions - well, I think I could see why he preferred them and I could definitely see why I didn't.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:49 PM

" seems to me "No" is all that is necessary"
Fortunately BillD, Max didn't feel the same way...

"the bickering and 2nd guessing from guys like Clinton triple..."
Well, you're wrong again BillD...

"you caught me being grumpy"
As opposed to what Mick?

:-P

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:46 PM

"Cause "just because" hasn't cut it with me since I was about 4 years old..."

it's either a technical reason, or it isn't...if it IS a technical reason, it can't be done easily anyway, but since Joe and some others can do it, that's not likely.....

If it's NOT a technical reason, it must be a judgement, and once you explain your judgements, the bickering and 2nd guessing from guys like Shambles and Clinton triple..."WHAT, that's no decent reason...why, it could be done just like..."....etc...

When you were 4, Clinton, your mother knew better than to try to explain to someone who just doesn't like the answer.

seems to me "No" is all that is necessary.

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:46 PM

" As to it being just a message board, I beg to differ."

Differ all you want mate... Won't make it mean any more... Every single message board I visit, frequent, or even just ghost says the exact same as you do... "Oh... we're different... OUR group is special"... Well, when everything is special, then NOTHING is special...   

"And all because of this place"
If there had never been a Mudcat, you'd be singing the exact same song about whatever other message board you chose to frequent, through which you met some people and their kids...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM

Allright, you caught me being grumpy. But I stand by my posts.

Mick

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:39 PM

That helps... thanks Max!

See Mick... That didn't hurt even a little bit, did it?   A plain and simple answer to a plain and simple question... (It's like a breath of fresh air around here really)

Though, I'd like to see someone try to define "unreasonable" in any way that could even PRETEND to apply to everyone in every situation!

LOL

Ya know... like "Folk Music"

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:38 PM

The mechanism is already in place to review posts before sending them. I thought that was a huge improvement when it was added and I've been happy with how it works. Getting into the habit of using it would solve a number of problems people have described encountering.

SRS

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:36 PM

Clinton, as much as I like you, you are off the mark on this issue. You present the issue from a very self centered perspective. It doesn't matter what works for you, me, harpgirl, or anyone else. This man keeps this going based on what works for him. Instead of all the bitching and carping about how it could be, just accept it for what it is.

As to it being just a message board, I beg to differ. I have travelled all over this country, and another. I have met folks from around the world. I have made music with some of the greats. And all because of this place. Most importantly, I HAVE MET MORGAN because of this place. I have met folks that were isolated and without contacts in our folk music world, until Mudcat came along.

Enjoy, and stuff your piehole.

Mick

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Max
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

No. Like life, there are no take backs. I cannot allow yall to go back and edit your messages later. We have enough trouble as it is. Be thoughtful, be careful, use Word to spell check and don't be unreasonable, don't be mean, don't be discourteous...

I will not exert effort so that you can be more careless.

That better?

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:28 PM

"So you can bitch about how this place doesn't measure up to all the other sites you inhabit?"

Don't have to... that's common enough knowledge... I'm not here for the software... I'm here for some of the people... But that doesn't mean we can't discuss the software and it's shortcomings...

Try not to take it so personally BM... It's just a web site... and it's just a question... Can we have an 'edit posts' feature like other sites? No... o.k... why not? Cause "just because" hasn't cut it with me since I was about 4 years old...

"He has told you that he had to take time off work to resolve problems."
There have been PLENTY of suggestions of PLENTY of things that could be done to help Mudcat... If the place was half as important to some as you'd like me to believe, I'd imagine that maybe,, just maybe.. some of the very good advice that's been shared here might have been implemented...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From:
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:23 PM

Thanks, Big Mick. I couldn't have said it better!

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:18 PM

Why would he? So you can bitch about how this place doesn't measure up to all the other sites you inhabit? I honestly don't know why you waste your precious time here with all the other great sites about.

This man has tried to tell you folks that he has all he can do to keep a site going as it is. He has told you that he had to take time off work to resolve problems. Get it people? He could have been making money to do things like support his family. Now there is a concept.

Mudcat has become very important in some folks lives. Out of respect for that, I believe Max keeps this thing going at great cost to his life and income.

Just enjoy the place while you have it, and be grateful you have had it this long. And, fer chrissakes, don't ask this man to sink more into it.

Rant off,

Mick

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

The reasons behind it, if any...

Subject: RE: Hi Max: Personal edit button?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson's Mind But Not Body
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Hey, he said NO moron.

what part of NO don't you understand?