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BS: IRAQ: Bloody Sunday (American Style, 2003)
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:57 PM Two hundred in a crowd. Seventeen dead. Seventy-five wounded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: gnu Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM I think you should be in charge of the next platoon to come under fire in such a situation so that you could run into the crowd and wrestle down the trigger without firing a shot. Are the coalition suppose to retreat and leave the looters and criminals to return ? Well... are they ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM So why did "the good guys" mow down half the crowd? There was an army guy on the news saying "It was like the Alamo". Sounded more like Wounded Knee to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: gnu Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM "The bad guys" are the guys with the AK's, Lepur Rex. The good guys are the ones who risked their lives to liberate the Iraqi civilians. You remember the "good men" ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:05 PM blowing up Ziggurats I don't think the Iranians ever got round to blowing up pre-Islamic monuments and all that. The Taliban were a pretty different mob, with a very different ideology. If Iraq did go for an ultra-religious government, it seems generally agreed that it would pretty definitely be more like their neighbours and fellow Shi'ites in Iran, which is a lot closer to being a democracy than most places around the region. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: GUEST,Steve Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM "leave the Iraq people to settle their own affairs" unless, of course they decide to elect another dictator who insists on one-party rule, or an ultra-religious government intent on 'Islamifying' the country and blowing up Ziggurats etc that is...whither democracy then? This is from Reuters: "Lieutenant Colonel Eric Nantz, speaking at the school, said his men had been on the lookout for trouble from diehard Saddam supporters as Monday was the vanished dictator's 66th birthday. What Nantz described as "celebratory firing" accompanied a crowd which was first dispersed from outside a U.S. base in the centre of town by an American show of force. When the crowd reformed at the school, however, shots were aimed at the troops. "There were a lot of people who were armed and who were throwing rocks. How is a U.S. soldier to tell the difference between a rock and a grenade?" Nantz said. - doesn't one go bang? - arguing about whoever shot the first round is really irrelevant - a return to playground politics "well he started it" - it would seem that the American troops were disproportionate in their response in an already volotile region. The sooner they're withdrawn, and some semblance of order is established the better for all involved. Failing that I can only foresee more incidents like this. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: ard mhacha Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:06 PM I find it amazing that the words of an invading army can be held as truth. I seen enough of the lying scum here in the sick six, the truth eventually comes out, but with the time elapsed, no one gives a damm. The US troops in Vietnam murdered civilans, but who the hell cares now. Get your brain-washed trigger happy scum out of this mess of their making and leave the Iraq people to settle their own affairs, oh, how bloody stupid of me, the oil, I forgot about the oil. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM Just got back and to answer the Iraqi leader question......Even now there are individuals and religious leaders coming to the fore. Although they are not the classic leadership, they are filling that role to a lot of Iraqi citizens who would prefer their own people to the Americans. I am not saying they are responsible for this or that they are or will be a part of whatever Iraq is to become, but simply that they are at the present looked upon as some sort of leader by the Iraqis. It's only natural. for those in that position it would be wise not to twist the dragon's tail and work toward a peaceful settlement and establishment of a real leadership to get the Americans out asap. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: beadie Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:53 PM This sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Boston Massacre (paranoid occupying troops in a hostile environment surrounded by angry locals and no one knows for sure who fired first). Of course, in the original, the British submitted to having their troops tried for crimes arising from the incident in an American Colonial court. Defended by a Boston brewer and sometimes lawyer (and cousin of the second President) named John Adams, the troops were acquitted of the most serious of the charges brought and none were imprisoned. I wonder if that would happen in this case? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:30 PM "If" There were plenty of reports along those lines on Bloody Sunday. Naturally. Other reports say that the shooting started when someone chucked a stone at the school the soldiers were using as a barracks. And the reason why thgere'd have been children in the crowd or so, as mexican asked, would have been because the protest was calling for the soldiers to give back the school building. Whether or not Bloody Sunday was a deliberate massacre or not, that was a reasonable suspicion, Ringer. I doubt if that particulalr explanation of what hapened on Monday would be very plausible, that's what IO meant. Reports put the crowd involved at about 200. Nearly eighty wounded, 13-17 dead. And not one of the dead or wounded from among teh soliers it seems. That is a rather comprehensive shoot-out. It doesn't sound like professionals carefully shoopting at a handful of armed opponents. It sound like people with automatic weapons just blazing away. But maybe there are facts we don't know yet.That's why a proper investigation by independent investigators is needed, and needed fast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: GUEST, heric Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:22 PM >>"Why do people bring their children to these protests? " Perhaps because it didn't occur to them that a "liberating army" was going to fire on an unarmed crowd. << I hope I am not viewed as impolite for saying that I admire this as impressive doublespeak. (Bringing their children to protest a liberating army.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Amos Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:12 PM "The BBC also reported a witness saying a man on a motorbike had opened fire on the U.S. soldiers. A total of 13 people were killed and at least 75 wounded, Reuters reported, citing Falluja hospital director Ahmed Ghanim. Some local people gave higher estimates, Reuters said. International Committee of the Red Cross spokeswoman Tamara Alrifai in Geneva said 15 had died. The Red Cross has sent relief supplies to hospitals for the wounded, whose exact number isn't known, Alrifai said. " Given all the confusion, the man-on-the-motorbike report seems to make a lot of sense. The fog of war is not like an academic analysis. If there was a jerk on a moped using an AK47 on troops and they fired back, not knowing immediately where he was, it could have started the whole ruckus. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM Just hope those damned anti-second-amendment liberals won't use this incident to argue that Iraqi civilians should be denied free access to firearms. Or am I confused? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Ringer Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM Why spend £200M on a Saville enquiry when McGrath of Harlow knows that what really happened was "a deliberate massacre to give the protestors a lesson"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM "The bad guys" - according to this report the dead included Isix children aged seven or eight - U.S. Command Confirms Firefight in the Iraqi Town of Falluja The thirteen dead is provisional - the Red Cross puts it higher, and with all those wounded it seems unlikely there won't be more deaths. It seems more likely to be a panicky cock-up, rather than a deliberate massacre to give the protestors a lesson - that's one difference from Bloody Sunday. The other difference being the killing of little children this time. There should an investigation into what happened, not just carried out by the army. But there won't be, any more than there will be for the shootings at checkpoints and road blocks. Maybe it'll be included in the movies they make about all this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Amos Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:48 PM Iraqis with AK47s, interested in applying them to others, are the bad guys du jour. The claims that the crowd was unarmed is kind of incompatible with the claim that a firefight went on for some time. You think these troops were duckshooting, or fighting with themselves? Not. But the whole story is not known, for certain. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Lepus Rex Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:29 PM "The bad guys," Doug? So Iraqi civilians are "bad guys," now? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: DougR Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:20 PM Right. Believe the bad guys instead of our troops. So typical of so many of you. Oh well. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:12 PM "Why do people bring their children to these protests? " Perhaps because it didn't occur to them that a "liberating army" was going to fire on an unarmed crowd. I hope that there were television crews there filming, to help sort out what actually happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: mexican Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:05 PM Why do people bring their children to these protests? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:03 PM Which Iraqi leaders would those be? The ace of clubs? The jack of diamonds? The mayor of Baghdad? Troops can't be used as policemen, they're trained only to kill not to make value judgements. Value judgements in battle are often fatal. The troops must be replaced with well-trained civilian police very quickly if more such tragedy is to be avoided. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: GUEST,pdc Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:00 PM Spaw -- what Iraqi leaders? There is no leadership in Iraq right now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:53 AM Just awhile back there was a movie with Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson that dealt with a very similar scenario. There is plenty of blame to go round here. American troops at a high level of intensity, angry Iraqis wanting the Americans out....but the real blame here is for the ones who put both in the position they were in. And much as I'd like to blame Bush and his cronies, the Iraqi leaders are not without fault. They too need to keep their folks under a bit of control. Loud and angry rock throwing protests in the face of a nervous bunch of people with rifles is not a wise move either. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM Pedantic point - three children aged less than eleven. And 75 people injured. No news of any injuries to the soldiers. These guys in crowds who set these things off by firing at the army seem to be terrible shots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Greg F. Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:38 AM Dumbya and the BuShites don't 'overlook' it, Amos. They simply don't give a shit- not the same thing at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Amos Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:35 AM CNN's Karl Penhaul said he talked to a pair of U.S. soldiers who said protesters opened fire first, shooting at American forces with AK-47s. The soldiers said the troops fired back. In Washington, Pentagon officials also reported that soldiers took aim after shots were fired at them. The incident is under investigation, Pentagon officials said. U.S. Central Command said soldiers came under fire from Iraqis armed with AK-47 assault rifles. "The unit exercised its inherent right to self defense and returned fire," the Central Command statement said. Central Command denied the accuracy of reports from the Qatar-based, Arabic-language news network Al-Jazeera that U.S. soldiers fired unprovoked into a crowd. (from CNN's web page) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: Amos Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:12 AM As Spaw said, it was to be expected that some slice of awful violence would pop up somewhere. Lessons fron 'Nam: politicians can turn war on and off with the flick of a compromise. Those who have to wage it cannot flick a switch at a moment's notice and turn from adrenalin soaked warriors to diplomats. This is one of the grimy facts aboiut war that people like GWB overlook. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: ard mhacha Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:56 AM I know who to believe and it isn`t the trigger happy scum that fired into an unarmed crowd, three 11 year olds included, in this mass murder. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:20 AM Iraqis killed in anti-US protest"
There were angry scenes at the funerals of those killed in Falluja Thirteen Iraqis were reportedly killed when US forces opened fire on demonstrators on Monday night in the Iraqi town of Falluja. There are conflicting reports as to what happened in the town, which lies 50 kilometres (35 miles) west of Baghdad. US paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne Division started shooting after coming under fire from approximately 25 armed civilians mixed within a crowd of some 200 protesters outside a compound they were occupying in the town, a statement from US Central Command (CentCom) said. But Iraqi witnesses said the protesters were unarmed and that the soldiers opened fire without warning on a peaceful crowd, which was protesting against the US forces' use of a school as their barracks. How could anyone compare this to Bloody Sunday? After all, it happened on a Monday... And while I waas lookihg for the link to that, here's another one I found on the BBC site: Iraq's cancer children overlooked in war "With Iraq's hospitals in disarray, the long-term sick are being passed over in a frantic effort to treat emergency cases. For the thousands of young leukaemia victims, the outlook is bleaker than ever." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Apr 03 - 07:58 AM This of course was to be expected and is the flip side of Dumbya'a "cheering crowds." Soldiers justifiably paranoid in a strange land of suicide bombers and a native people feeling the pressures of a new control, this time by American troops. Who fired first? Does it matter? The blame falls at the top. It comes down on Iraqi leadrs unable to calm their people and on an American president who has put both groups in an untenable situation. Rest assured, it will happen again. Spaw |
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Subject: BS: Bloody Sunday (American Style) From: GUEST,Botticelli Date: 29 Apr 03 - 07:24 AM 13 dead, and who fired the first shot?
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