Falsetto

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 04:10 PM

What a great discussion. I've always wanted to yodel and can't. I've wondered why some singers are able to "break" into falsetto and some, (for me in spite of 55 years or so of trying), can't. My normal speaking voice is quite low-pitched but my singing voice is in the soprano range. I can sing in the lower range of my speaking voice but it doesn't sound as good so I usually don't. (Unless I'm trying to yodel). Why can't I yodel?

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:10 PM

Uncle Dave is restricting "artificial" to just one of its meanings when it has several (see OED).
Applicable here are the definitions "not natural in manner," "displaying special art or skill (allied with the word artifice)," etc.

Perhaps a better word is forced (vide OED):Falsetto- "A forced voice of a range or register above the natural."

In any case, the definition is subjective; what is natural for one may be forced or artificial in another.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:29 PM

I don't understand and tend to disagree with the definition of falsetto as "an artificial extension of the tenor range".

How, "artificial"? What, is there surgery? Medications? Do they use special mechanical appliances? Or is it done in the electronics after recording?

Of course not. It's a vocal technique, using what the singer has naturally. Just because not everyone is able to do it or doesn't bother to learn it doesn't make it artificial. It would be just as meaningful to call ordinary singing artificial, or to call hand-clapping artificial. Yes, of course it's man-made, but so are those things.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:04 PM

As has been mentioned already, most counter-tenors (eg James Bowman) have bass or bass/baritone natural ranges, which have a range to but an octave lower than a normal female contralto voice (similar to the Tenor - Soprano comparison). On one of his records the famous Afred Deller sang several songs in his bass voice and I can remember a wonderful rendition of "In Cellar Drear" where he gets all the way down the D-R-I-N-K-I-N-G octave to an incredible bottom note (I don't mean the sort that Spaw's famous for).

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:34 AM

High, Becky: Double Decker was one of the groups I thought of that uses a falsetto on occasion... but the only time I remember them using it is in novelty songs, or immitating a woman's voice. I don't think they use falsetto on a regular basis, just for harmony... or that the slide up into falsetto, singing lead.

Old-time music did occasionally use falsetto for humor.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:14 AM

My first cousin once removed, Miss Katherine Caldwell, was a good friend of Mr. John Jacob Niles. I had the pleasure of meeting him more than once. His speaking voice was just as high as his singing voice, and I do not think it was an affectation.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 11:31 PM

What about that one guy in the Double Decker Stringband (sorry, don't know which voice goes with which name)? Does that qualify?

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:51 PM

Then you know what I'm talking about, Gargoyle. My quartet is two baritones, a bass and a second tenor. We don't have a high tenor, and on some songs, depending on the key and when the tenor is singing the lead, we can't find enough space for three harmonies below him, and no one can naturally sing a harmony above him. When that happens, our other baritone, Frankie, sings falsetto. It's a great blend, with the falsetto counter-balancing the bass and I just fill in the middle.

Nothing un-cahones about it.

And Margaret, down under... I'm glad to see that someone knows who Claude Jeter is. Forget Caruso, or Pavrotti. The most amazing human voice I've heard is Claude Jeter's.. (just kidding, before anyone rises to the defense of Caruso or Pavrotti.) But, for falsetto, I don't believe there has ever been anyone who sang with such strength and emotion, taking the voice up to such a stratospheric level.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:07 PM

Interesting thread Mr. R....

confusing falsetto with that high "mountain" tenor you hear in bluegrass and the old folk.....

Baratone to Irish Tenor?

I am NOT a vocalist...I am key-boardist......however, recently finding myself thrown into a "group" that was filled (to the max) with the lower range males....and nothing separating them from the female sopranos......AND no need for a piano player (the two available surpass my pathetic skills.)

It...ain't "man-ly" but I have made a "cut in the cahones" to blend in with this amazing group of musicians.....


Delighted to not be faking my "real range" anymore....

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:06 PM

A person who naturally sings in the "falsetto" range would not be singing falsetto, but would be a male alto (a very unusual thing) or a castrato (which we might hope is even more rare). Falsetto is by definition a vocal technique producing an artificial and unnatural effect. Modern counter-tenors do not in the main sing naturally in that range, but are generally bass or baritones singing falsetto. Counter-tenor tends to show a greater warmth and tonal range because the natural voice on which it is based is larger to begin with. A chap I was at school with worked as a professional counter-tenor for some years (largely with Fritz Spiegl, I think, but we all have to do what we must to pay the rent) and his speaking voice was perfectly normal. A man singing naturally in the alto ("falsetto") range might be expected to have a speaking voice rather like Emlyn Hughes.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:05 PM

Dear old Mudcat... what an interesting and esoteric discussion. I'm really enjoying reading it. And thanks for correcting me on Claude Jeter. At least I didn't call him Derrick. As always, we get into definitions of music, and I might as well give mine. Or, at least what I consider falls under the umbrella of "folk" music. Bluegrass does, but straight country doesn't. Allison Krause I could comfortably include in "folk," although she has often strayed pretty far away from her roots. I wouldn't put Shania Twain under folk, because I don't hear many vestiges of folk in her music. When I make a statement that, not including bluegrass(although I consider it folk music) I don't remember hearing falsetto used in white southern gospel or white southern folk music. I ain't talking Southern France, or monks, or Mexicans... God love 'em all. My generalization is very specific. If that's possibile. It may not be 100% correct, and if someone can produce a recording with Mother Maybelle, or Charlie Poole, or more traditional American folk singers singing falsetto, I'll add an asterisk to my generalization.

The other area I've mentioned is some country music... Jimmie Rodgers immediately comes to mind for slipping up into falsetto. Yodelling is as falsetto as you can get.

As for rhythm and blues (Doo wop), listen to the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, or many other black gospel quartets and you won't have any problem figuring out where it came from. Same with the "Why is everrrbody always pickin' on me" bass line.... Straight out of black gospel.

Thanks for all the fascinating posts..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:49 PM

Greetings from Down Under, Jerry! Great discussion.
Just to be pedantic for a second, it's CLAUDE Jeter (your first posting), as I'm sure you actually know.
Re that dictionary definition - some of the most affecting falsetto comes from singers with naturally very low voices, eg Paul Robeson.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Padre
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:40 PM

Probably also need to differentiate between 'falsetto' and 'countertenor.'

The Harvard Dictionary of Music defines 'Falsetto' as "an artificial method of singing used by MALE singers, particularly tenors, to reach notes above their ordinary range."

'Countertenor' is defined as "Old name for male alto, derived from contratenor" - a third voice part added to the basic two voice system of descant and tenor in 14th and 15th century vocal compositions.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:26 PM

Hey, I hear the word falsetto and I think the Beach Boys and the Four Seasons. Are they folk?
There certainly is some fine falsetto singing in doo-wop music. Where'd that come from? Could it have traditional origins?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:52 PM

Yesterday I got the very fine cd by Willie K. (Kahalali'i), "Awihilima: Reflections." He carries some of his songs into a range which many call falsetto, but the high range is natural to traditional Hawai'ian music, and Willie K. is a fine performer of that music.

The dictionary defines falsetto as an artificial extending of the tenor range, but if it is natural and not artificial, is it falsetto?

I think the key is "artificial;" Willie K. is never artificial and I suspect some of the examples mentioned above are also not artificial. It also puts me in mind of some of the treble and countertenor singers required in renaissance choral works.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:05 PM

Listen to "New Freedom Bell", the early version from about 1960.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:59 PM

I'm not sure what is meant by "white gospel" or "falsetto" but there is a lot of what I call falsetto in white bluegrass gospel, especially in the early stuff. I took out a collection of Flatt & Scruggs (1948-1959) and the first cut of the first CD was "God Loves His Children" with Mac Wiseman (according to the liner notes) singing falsetto above Lester Flatt. It is most definitely not a high mountain tenor, although it probably doesn't qualify as white gospel.

Ralph Stanley often seems to go up from the high mountain tenor to falsetto. John Duffy sang very high, but it never seemed to be falsetto to my ear.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Joybell
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:20 PM

And Mexican male singers.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Joybell
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:19 PM

Joan Baez, The Girls of the Golden West and, in Australia The McKean Sisters all seem to be using falsetto at times.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:11 PM

You're right when you say it's sometimes hard to tell when someone slips into a couple of notes in falsetto. Some people glide in so smoothly, I can't hear the change. If someone just slips in occasionally for a note or two, it might well pass unnoticed. In black gospel, the singer is likely to do whole lines, or the whole song in falsetto. It's much more obvious, then..

Falsetto in country music or bluegrass would make more sense, as yodeling was taken in as part of western music. Guess there's another thread there... one on yodeling..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:06 PM

Female singers are tricky but Maggie Hammons Parker sounds to me as if she is singing falsetto on some of her selections in the Library of Congress Hammons Family set. Omie Wise for example.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:05 PM

John Duffy had a great deal of classical voice training and could go seemlessly from normal voice range to falsetto. His highest notes are still powerful but above his natural range. He recorded a lot of "bluegrass gospel" with the Country Gentlemen and with Seldom Scene.

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:47 PM

It's sometimes confusing to hear between head tones and falsetto. There is also a vocal style "voce finta" which resembles head tones and falsetto.

Frank

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:38 PM

Us Amuricans can eat Walnettos whilst singing Falsetto.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:29 PM

Falsetto: (a) A long-bladed thin dagger which is actually made of rubber rather than steel. (b)A padded brassiere in which an opening has been made for secreting such a weapon.

A

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM

Hi, Mark: You may be right.... I have a fair amount of Carl Story, and really like him. I'll have to go back and listen to see if the high tenor is really falsetto, or just a high tenor. If it is falsetto, it wouldn't suprise me, as I thought bluegrass might be the exception. I don't listen to a lot of bluegrass, although I've booked bluegrass bands at a festival I ran for many years, and I never heard anyone in their groups singing in falsetto. It might just be that the question hadn't occurred to me back then.

I'll have to go back and listen to what I have..

Thanks for the response..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Mark Clark
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 05:34 PM

Two words: Carl Story.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 05:34 PM

Now, I'm thinking of exceptions... what would a rule be without exceptions? On humorous southern Appalachian songs, sometimes a male singer would sing the woman's part in falsetto. I've heard that on Batchelor Boy and a couple other songs... old-time string bands occasionally used falsetto in that way.

(I'm not starting this thread to prove my statement is "right," by the way.... just interested in learning more.)

I think you may be right, M. Ted... like so many other characteristics of black gospel, you can usually trace the roots back to Africa.

I've heard many people speak in tongues, by the way... it's fairly common in the black church. From my experience, I've never heard someone speak in falsetto, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 05:06 PM

My understanding is that the falsetto(as well as the other altered vocal styles, such as that whispery bass, and that froggy voice) come to Black Gospel music by way of JuJu from the old African religions, where they occur in religious rituals when the singer is possessed by the spirit of a particular god--there are vestiges of this in white charismatic rituals as well, such as in "speaking in tongues", and I am pretty sure have heard falsetto singing in mixed charismatic services, but I think you're right--

Subject: RE: Falsetto
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 04:28 PM

my grandmother had a falsetto teeth.

Subject: Falsetto
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 04:11 PM

This should be a real short thread. At the Black and White Gospel workshop I did recently, I pointed out that falsetto is a common style of singing in black gospel (and rhythmn and blues.) Some singers, like Clyde Jeter of the Swan Silvertones, flowed so smoothly between his normal tenor voice and his falsetto that it was hard to hear where he switched. When I commented that I don't ever remember hearing falsetto in a group singing white gospel, several people protested, saying they know "hundreds" of white gospel recordings where someone sings falsetto. I've got a large collection of traditional folk music and white gospel, and I don't believe I have a single recording of either American traditional folk or white gospel with someone singing falsetto.

I asked the people to give me a f'rinstance, and nobody could. I wondered if they were just confusing falsetto with that high "mountain" tenor you hear in bluegrass and the old folk songs from Southern United States. Falsetto isn't deteremined by pitch. I don't even know how it happens, technically speaking (I'm sure someone here does..) I know singing falsetto is a gift, because mine is very unreliable.

Now, I do know that falsetto is used in yodeling, so it's not completely "foreign" to these shores. But falsetto in white gospel?
Anybody have a recording that you're SHURE is falsetto and not just that high "mountain tenor?

Jerry