Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Joybell Date: 13 Feb 04 - 05:11 PM Pete Seeger recorded a good version of this ballad. He got the title wrong, calling it "The False Knight Upon the Road", however so you need to look for it under that title if you want to hear him sing it. I learned it from his recording and have been singing it for about 40 years. Can't be? Yes I believe it is!! Joy |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: LadyJean Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:35 AM You will find "The Outlandish Knight" in my friend Sarah Zettel's book "Camelot's Shadow" which will be in the stores this May. Sarah did some of the research for this book on the mudcat, so I thought I'd give her book a shameless plug. I've read a proof and it is good! It's calling itself a romance, but it is NOT a bodice ripper. |
Subject: Lyr Add: THE OUTLANDISH KNIGHT From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Feb 04 - 04:25 PM There's also this version (click) posted by Hesperis: Thread #24700 Message #284828 Posted By: hesperis 25-Aug-00 - 02:44 AM Thread Name: Ballads with Plot Twists? Subject: Lyr Add: THE OUTLANDISH KNIGHT leenia - for you. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:34 AM GUEST,padgett said, in part: I reached the conclusion that the parrot was really her own conscience telling her not to have any qualms about her drowning the knight taking his money and his horses, Padgett, I don't question your right to interpret a portion of this or any other song however you wish in your own mind. But when you suggest that the parrot was "really" the voice of her conscience, I wonder if you are suggesting that this was the meaning traditionally assigned in the singing and passing down of the song. If we were talking about what I'll call "an authored song", then speculation as to the author's meaning is entirely proper (although your suggested meaning is rather unlikely in this particular case, in my opinion). But for a song which has come together through gradual accumulation and alteration, through the contributions of many singers over a long period of time, for one today to suggest that the surface meaning covers a hidden moralistic meaning is unwarranted. And even if it were an authored song, there is nothing in the parrot incident that suggests the voice of her conscience salving her feelings. The English and Scottish traditional ballads, in my opinion and understanding, are pretty up-front, telling a story of events and leaving the listener to his/her own interpretation. They don't tell you something like, "Oh, wasn't she terrible to kill that poor baby that she'd had out of wedlock?" And I don't think of any of the ballads that deal with a character's inner feelings, either. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Joybell Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:46 PM Pagett, That's a lovely bit. Thanks. It's the alliteration that's missing from modern "tradition style" songs I've always thought. The story is taken to be more important than the telling. I never tell a talking animal what to do actually. It's the deep love of these old ballads that makes me comment on their quirks. When I sing them I find myself caught up in the sadness and suddenly crying at the vivid imagery. The desperate bargain that Polly makes with her parrot doesn't seem at all strange when you sing the ballad. Joybelle |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,padgett Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:10 AM I reached the conclusion that the parrot was really her own conscience telling her not to have any qualms about her drowning the knight taking his money and his horses, lovely alliteration in my version don't prittle or prattle my pretty polly don't tell any tales upon me for your cage shall be built of the glitters in gold and the door of the best ivory |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:33 PM The names seem to have become a bit mixed up in some forms of the song, but I wouldn't pay too much attention to that really. You don't tell a talking animal to mind its own business, though; you always have to bribe it, or else make it an offer it can't refuse; as in the Saki story about the talking cat that blackmailed everybody until they brought up the subject of vets. Meanwhile, here's a link to a Heer Halewijn text with a translation into English. It seems pretty good on the whole, though there are some odd word-choices in one or two places. Best ignore the accompanying notes, though, as they make some rather dubious assumptions which need a good bit of salt to go with them. Heer Halewijn |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Joybell Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:32 PM The parrot bit does rather raise some questions. Of course ballads are seldom logical but - Why did she tell the parrot ANYTHING? Why didn't she say, "Mind your own business, you snoopy parrot!" and leave it at that. At least the bird in the ballad "Young Hunting/Henry Lee" witnessed the murder. You'd want to offer a nice golden cage to that bird. The whole thing makes more sense in that story. Also why did Polly call her pet parrot after herself? Was Polly - the girl, named after the pet parrot? I do so enjoy these discussions. Where are they leading us? Is this the path to true enlightenment? If it is - can I keep up? Joy |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:49 AM This is quite an old thread now (just recently brought back from the mists of time by that parrot fellow) and I think that we may have gone further into that somewhere or other; can't recall at this time of night whether it was here or in another thread. Could well be worth revisiting some points and tying up some loose ends, though, and I at least know a fair bit more than I did four years ago when the question was first asked. Tomorrow, maybe. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,visitor (Kirsty) Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:35 AM This is my first visit and I'm really enjoying reading the discussions. Please excuse me if these have already been suggested and I missed it: 1)"Ba-ba and a lily-ba" Maybe it's (meaningless here, but) transferred over from something like Ewan MacColl's version of The Elfin Knight, "blaw, blaw, blaw winds blaw" ? 2)"Oh (ought oh ought)?? would give to me rest And* that young knight lay here on my breast." Possibly "aught" ("anything") ? |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:17 AM Not directly, at the moment; but a few general comments for now: Child has plenty to say on the subject (his notes to Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight are detailed and extensive), but the best general study is probably still Holger Nygard's The Ballad of 'Heer Halewijn', Its Forms and Variations in Western Europe: A Study of the History and Nature of a Ballad Tradition (Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1958) also published as F[olklore] Fellows] Communications, No. 169 (Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia/Academia Scientiarum Fennica, 1958). Nygard explores ballad forms of the story found throughout Western Europe, reaching the general conclusion that the oldest elements seem to belong to the Netherlands, which he is inclined to consider to be the centre from which it spread; roughly, through Germany into Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, through Denmark into Scandinavia, and through France into Britain. The diagrams get quite complicated, and I certainly can get no more than the very roughest gist of some of the examples quoted, which are deconstructed and without music. Nevertheless, it's an enormously interesting book, but far too extensive for me to attempt any proper sort of summary here. More recently (1967), Lajos Vargyas has suggested a line of descent reaching back to Central Asia, but that seems to have been based on iconography rather than any direct evidence. I haven't had the opportunity of reading that book so far, though, so I have only Bert Lloyd's comments to go on: he was quite keen on that sort of idea, but doesn't commit himself. There have been a good few further studies too, of course, taken from various different viewpoints but mainly concentrating on detail (such as the parrot episode) rather than distribution. Plenty I haven't read yet, so my comments shouldn't be taken as in any way definitive. So far as Scandinavian forms are concerned, you can see some 28 Norwegian texts at the Norwegian Universities Documentation Project: Kvinnemordaren, but you do need some knowledge of the language -more than I have, at any rate- to get a great deal from them. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Feb 04 - 10:19 PM Can you tell us more about the Scandinavian form, Malcolm? SRS |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:22 PM Not in English-language forms, no; the song is a relatively late arrival in Britain and most of its supernatural elements were lost before it got here. In earlier forms (Netherlands and Scandinavia) there are occasionally talking birds, if I recall correctly; but these are of the distant, generic kind -common in folktales- that call veiled warnings to the heroine as she rides deeper into the wood where her lover has hung the bodies of his earlier victims. It is most likely that the ballad came to Britain via France, where the drowning element came to the fore; there are, I think, no talking birds in French forms. Sad as it may seem, the whole motif is probably just a coincidence, or an element incorporated by analogy from other narratives where the dead do sometimes return in the form of birds; there is no internal evidence, though, that that is the case here. That said, there are studies of the parrot business that I haven't had the chance to look at yet, and doubtless they go into all this in greater depth and may reach very different conclusions. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Joybell Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:36 PM Or is the bird a remnant from an earlier belief that souls of the dead were borne away by them? The bird would be able to tell all in this event. Joy |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:25 PM What does the parrot bit mean? Nothing more than it says. Girl comes home, and the parrot asks her where she's been all night. She says to be quiet, and she'll give the parrot various goodies. Daddy hears the parrot talking, and asks what's up, at that hour. Parrot says, "There came an old cat on top of my cage, for to take my sweet life away. I was just callin' out to my young mistress, to drive that old cat away." What's to mean? The parrot has been bribed to be part of the conspiracy to keep the girl's secret from her father. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:02 PM what does the parrot bit mean? |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 08 Feb 04 - 09:25 PM Guest, 8:10 p.m> A good thought: Succinct, and well phrased! |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,what does the bit about the parrot mean? Date: 08 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Nerd Date: 09 Oct 02 - 03:14 PM I just went over to the Buda site, and you can indeed order the CDs directly from Buda. They have some cute Franglais descriptions there, like: "The stories of the pretty daughter of the jailer, of fairy crews, of parricides and of crossed love make us discover all the imaginary of Ancient France." |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Nerd Date: 09 Oct 02 - 03:00 PM Roberto, The CD features Dutertre singing and playing epinette des Vosges (a French relative of the mountain dulcimer) and hurdy-gurdy. He's joined by guest musicians like Jean-Loup Baly on bowed psaltery, Michel sikiotakis on guitar, flute and tin whistle, and Jean Francois Vrod on violin. So it's a disc of tasteful acoustic arrangements of French ballads. The songs are: Les Tristes Noces La Porcheronne La Blanche Biche Le Maure-Sarrasin Le Prince Eugene La Fille du Roi Loys Jean Renaud Les Anneaux de Marianson Le Tueur Des Femmes La Pernette. Ballades Francaises Volume 2 features the same musicians plus Yvon Guilcher, meaning Dutertre's whole band Melusine is along for the ride. The Songs are: L'Amante du Dauphin Les Trois Princesses Le Deuil D'Amour Le Breuvage Empoisonne La Belle Qui Fait La Morte Le Chevalier a la Claire Epee La Barbiere La Mie Qui Meurt En Mal D'enfant La Jolie Fille du Geolier Le Flambeau D'Amour Bella Louison La Fille Parricide Le Navire Merveilleux Germine The CDs are on the Musique Du Monde label, distributed by Buda Musique, and the discs have a website address: www.budamusique.com good luck, they're great! |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 09 Oct 02 - 12:15 PM Yes, Abby, Dyer-Bennett recorded a version of this. I'm too lazy to go dig out the LP at the moment, but the words were very close to The Lonely Willow Tree in the DT. See: The Lonely Willow Tree Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,Roberto Date: 09 Oct 02 - 11:52 AM I'm interested in the CD Ballades Francaises by JF Dutertre, but I can't find using Google who sells it. Can somebody tell me something about? Thank you. Roberto Campo |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Abby Sale Date: 08 Oct 02 - 10:40 PM Amos: I have a feeling you're thinking of "Eggs and Marrowbone." Also a good song but the woman's the baddy there. I don't think RDB ever recorded any "Outlandish" version. But if he did, it must have been early on. I'd like to hear it. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:14 PM I don't see mentioned here Richard Dyer-Bennett's recording of "The Cruel Youth" (IIRC), the same story in short but featuring a cruel youth, and a damsel who persuades him to turn around while she takes off her gown, and throws him into the sea the moment he does so. The rest of the tale is a very close parallel to the Outlandish Knight. A |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Nerd Date: 07 Oct 02 - 04:31 PM This is a great song, and an indication that the modern fascination with serial killers goes back many years (just saw Red Dragon this weekend)! For those who care, JF Dutertre's version of Tueur Des Femmes (inserted above by Malcolm) is also on his CD Ballades Francaises, which is available on the Musique Du Monde label. This means it actually turns up at US record shops like Tower and HMV. Dutertre does sometimes record multiple versions of the same song, so this may not be the exact text Malcolm contributed, but it's a great CD, as is the sequel Ballades Francaises Volume 2. I'm not sure if the Epinette des Vosges album is out on CD, but I think it was and is now deleted. Nic Jones recorded two different versions of this song, one on each of his first two albums. The first was a standard one beginning "An Outlandish Knight from the Northlands came, and he came courting of me), while the second plunged you into the action with "He's followed her up, and he's followed her down, and it's into the room where she lay." I always liked the second, with its brisk tune. Frankie Armstrong's strong unaccompanied version of this is always stirring as well. When I get home, I'll give a listen to Carthy's and see if I can figure out what the chorus is... |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,roberto Date: 07 Oct 02 - 01:47 PM Thanks to Abby Sale. That is what I was looking for, trying to get the text as sung by Norma Waterson. Thank you. Roberto |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: robinia Date: 07 Oct 02 - 05:53 AM I'm fond of an Appalachian version of the ballad and particularly like the climactic line (from Jean Ritchie's singing of "False Sir John"), "she made a dash with her tender little arms and pushed him into the sea" -- so feminine!! |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Oct 02 - 07:27 PM Ralph Vaughan Williams didn't actually note a text from Mr. Hilton at all, so far as can be told; just the tune. The Penguin text is mainly that noted by C. S. Parsonson from a Mr. Lugg of Launceston, Cornwall, in 1905, with additional verses from other, unspecified, sources (probably broadsides). Mr. Lugg's set was published in The Journal of the Folk Song Society vol.IV (issue 15) 1910; pp.116-117. RVW was inclined to go for tunes only; "Hey, we can always get the words off a broadside". He missed a lot of good stuff that way, and occasionally -though not often enough- regretted it. While it's perfectly true that most sets of this song collected in the early 20th century are clearly derived from broadsides, it's disappointing that we don't have the details. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Abby Sale Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:05 PM Malcolm: As it happens, the "Penguin" version from which both derive wasn't exactly what it was made out to be; but that's another story. Ok. What's the story? Overall, versions are much the same but I guess it could easily be a collated text. Say beginning with the "sickle" verse - it only occurs in "F." Got some good folk-gossip for us? |
Subject: Lyr Add: OUTLANDISH KNIGHT (from Norma Waterson) From: Abby Sale Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:54 PM Roberto: Sorry for the delay - had to get around to it. I tend to agree with the others that it doesn't much matter but wotthehell - you wanted to know what the damn words were... From Norma on the new Wart/Cart CD, Dark Light, best as I hear it. Outlandish Knight Well, an outlandish knight from the northern lands came Go fetch me some of your father's gold She's fetched him some of her father's gold Then she's mounted on her milk-white steed Light down, light down my pretty fair maid Pull off, pull off your silken gown Go get me a sickle to crop off the thistle Child "F" 'Go fetch the sickle, to crop the nettle He's got the sickle to crop off the thistle Sometimes he sank, sometimes he swam Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man She's mounted on her milk-white steed But the parrot was up in his window so high Don't prittle, don't prattle, my pretty Polly But her father was up in the bedroom so high Oh, there came an old cat in my window high |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:43 PM The texts you quote are nearly identical. Hardly surprising; as Lloyd, too, recorded the version published in the Penguin Book (of which he was an editor). Doubtless there are a few differences of wording in some places due to deliberate or inadvertent modification in both his and Norma's arrangements of the song, but they do seem to be very minor ones. At present I don't have either recording, so I'm afraid I can't be more specific about the fine detail. As it happens, the "Penguin" version from which both derive wasn't exactly what it was made out to be; but that's another story. |
Subject: Lyr Add: OUTLANDISH KNIGHT From: GUEST,Roberto Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:09 PM The Penguin Book version is quite near to what Norma Waterson sings, but it isn't the very same. Where I can't get the exact words, the Penguin Book version doesn't help me. The only thing to do would be to listen to the record and try to write down the words. I still hope somebody who has the CD will do that. Another version very similar to the Penguin Book's is the one by A.L.Lloyd: An outlandish knight from the north land came And he came wooing of me And he told me he'd take me to that northern land And there he would marry me Well, she mounted on her lily-white horse And he upon the grey And away they did ride to the fair riverside Three hours before it was day He says, unlight, unlight my little Polly Unlight, unlight, cries he For six pretty maids I've drowned before And the seventh thou art to be She says, go get a sickle to crop the thistle That grows beside the brim That it may not mingle with me curly locks Nor harm my lily-white skin So he got a sickle to crop the thistle That grow beside the brim And she catched him around the middle so small And tumbled him into the stream Then she mounted on her lily-white horse And she did ride away And she arrived at her father's door Three hours before it was day Now the parrot being in the windy so high A-hearing the lady, he did say I'm afraid that some ruffians have led you astray That you've tarried so long away Don't prittle, don't prattle, my pretty Polly Nor tell no tales of me And your cage shall be of the glittering gold And your perch of the best ivory Now the master being in the bedroom so high A-hearing the parrot, he did say What's the matter with you, my pretty Polly You're prattling so long before day There came an old cat on the top of me cage To take me sweet life away I was just calling on my young mistress To drive that old pussy away
|
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:54 PM As stated earlier in this thread, Norma sings the set from The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, though she has modified the rhythm. The text from that book can be seen in an earlier discussion here: |
Subject: Lyr Add: OUTLANDISH KNIGHT From: GUEST,Roberto Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:17 PM These are the lyrics I could write down.I've put the brackets when I'm not sure of the words. There can be more mistakes I'm not aware of, English being not my mother language. Can you please help me correct and complete this text? Thank you. Roberto Well, an outlandish knight from the northern lands came He came wooing of me He told me he'd take me up to the north lands There he would marry me Go fetch me some of your father's gold Some of your mother's fee And two of the best of your father's horses (There stands) thirty and three She's fetched him some of her father's gold Some of her mother's fee And two of the best of her father's horses There stands thirty and three Then she's mounted on her milk-white steed He's rode the dapple grey They rode till they came to the broad riverside Three hours before it was day Light down, light down my pretty fair maid Light down, light down, cried he Six pretty maidens I've drowned here And the seventh one you shall be Pull off, pull off your silken gown Deliver it over to me For it is too fine and much too fair To rotten (in) salt water sea Go get me a sickle to crop off the thistle That grows beneath the brim It will not mingle with my curly locks Or (…) skin He's got the sickle to crop off the thistle That grows beneath the brim She's caught him round by the middle so small Tumbled him into the stream Sometimes he sank, sometimes he swam Down to the bank came he Oh help me, oh help me, my pretty fair maid Or drowned I shall be Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man Lie there instead of me Six pretty maidens you've drowned there And the seventh one has drowned thee She's mounted on her milk-white steed And led the dapple grey She rode till she came to her father's door An hour before it was day But the parrot was up in his window so high On hearing the lady, he did say I was afraid that a ruffian had done you harm You've tarried so long before day Don't prittle, don't prattle, my pretty Polly Don't tell no tales of me Your cage shall be made of the glistening gold And your perch of the best ivory But her father was up in the bedroom so high Hearing the parrot, did say What is the matter, my pretty Polly You've cried so long before day? Oh, there came an old cat in my window high To take my life away And I was just calling my young mistress To scare that old pussy away |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:38 PM Refresh: anybody have the lyrics Norma Waterson sings? Gary Gillard's watersons lyrics site has at least one version (click), but I'm not sure it's the one you seek. I didn't see anything about curly locks. -Joe Offer- |
Subject: outlandish knight From: GUEST,Roberto Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:33 AM The Outlandish Knight as sung by Norma Waterson, in Dark Luight. In the seventh stanza, she sings: Go get me a sickle to crop off the thistle That grows beneath the brim It will not mingle with my curly locks ............ skin. I can't get the words before the final "skin". Can somebody please help me? Thank you. Roberto Hi, Roberto - I'm going to move you to the ongoing discussion in another thread. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 08 May 02 - 11:04 PM Bye lily wean, or Ba lily wain is just to say (go to sleep?) pretty baby. Nothing nonsense about that. But talking about nonsense lines, I was referring to such verses as: A farmer was plowing his field one day Now those nonsense lines ARE nonsense, or that's the only way I can read them, and their function is to present a vocal musical passage purposely without sense, as I referred to earlier, to stretch out the story over a larger piece of music. They are, as I see it, the equivalent of an instrumental break. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: michaelr Date: 08 May 02 - 09:15 PM I think it may be more than just nonsense. Those syllables remind me of the beginning of "The Great Silkie", where "an earthly norris (nursing mother) sits and sings; and aye she sings BY LILY WEAN" (this is the DT version). Maddy Prior, in the notes from her Ravenchild CD, gives it as BA LILY WAIN. And the other song in the DT, "The Grey Silkie of Sule Skerry", has the words BALOO MY BABE. So this appears to be representative of the sound of a mother cooing to her baby. Of course there's no mention of a baby in "The Outlandish Knight", but still... Cheers, Michael |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 08 May 02 - 09:34 AM Seems to me nonsense filler lines or nonsense choruses are best understood as an "instrumental break" of sorts. The pure story, unrelieved, would be "here and gone" too quickly, so to speak, and the sung nonsense lines give a kind of punctuation, stretching the story content into a slower passage through the mind of the hearer. Besides that, many if not most (I hate to say all) of these songs were originally dance songs. Note the etymological link between "ballad" and "ballet". The nonsense lines and choruses were intended to be chimed in with and sung by the audience. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,Souter Date: 07 May 02 - 07:24 PM Why does it have to have any meaning? Maybe someone way back when couldn't think of the words that fit, so substituted nonsense syllables instead. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Anglo Date: 07 May 02 - 12:55 AM Norma said it's the version from the Penguin Book but she changed the tune a bit. The sleeve notes say "Similarly, [referring to her modal changes to the 'Death & The Lady' tune] but this time rhythmically, she also tweaked (ever so slightly) the tune of 'The Outlandish Knight' as found in [Penguin]." What was a 4/4 tune has become 3/4 (or 6/4 if you want to retain the original barring) but there are melodic changes too. It's a long way from Martin's Shearwater version. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Garry Gillard Date: 06 May 02 - 01:41 AM This song is on Waterson:Carthy's CD A Dark Light, which has not yet been released (but advance copies have been sold in the US). Is is the same song that Martin Carthy sings on Shearwater? Garry |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:05 PM Certainly not impossible, but nevertheless extremely unlikely in this case. Speculation is often interesting, but we really do need a more specific proposal (original language? possible meaning?) in order to consider something of the sort as a possiblity. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: pavane Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:39 PM There has been some suggestion that 'nonsense' lyrics or chorus may be a hangover from a previous language. For example, is 'hey derry down' related to the Welsh for Oak, which I think is deri. Hickory Dickory Dock is thought by some to be Celtic (?Druidic) counting for 8,9,10. An old shepherds song from ?Lincolnshire used 'yan tan tethera pethera' for counting, obviously derived from a Celtic language. So perhaps we are looking in the wrong place for sense in these words. It is not so far-fethced, because there have been recorded instances of songs in the Welsh language being collected from non-Welsh speakers. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:01 PM It probably means nothing at all; Carthy sang ba, not va, as I mentioned earlier (the sound is the result of a vocal mannerism). I suppose I could quote the following, which I didn't have at the time the question was originally asked. In a discussion of The Elfin Knight (Child #2), Bronson said, with reference to a blackletter broadside of c.1670, The Wind hath blown my Plaid away, or, A Discourse betwixt a young [wo]man and the Elphin Knight:
"..Without the testimony of the tune, however, we do not know how to read the first refrain-line. The other (second) refrain-line gives a norm, tetrameter iambic. But the first, "Ba, ba, ba, lilli ba," has only six, instead of eight syllables, and the accents are uncertain. The scansion would be settled instantly by the tune, but not the meaning of the line, if it had a meaning. Supposing it were meant to suggest the horns of elfland (whence the knight fetched his instrument), we should then know how they sounded. By the merest chance, a traditional version of this ballad was sung in West Newton, Massachusetts, about 1870, to a pentatonic tune with a hornlike second phrase containing the same number of syllables, thus:
Blow blow blow ye winds blow
It may be only a coincidence; but since the version is traditional, it is at least a curious coincidence. When we find in Scottish tradition, in the first decade of the present century, a form of the ballad to another tune but with twelve stanzas of the earliest text still recognizable, and with refrain-lines almost identical, we begin to suspect a persistent continuity, viz.:
Bo ba ba lee-lie ba
But the sense remains obscure... mere common sense prompts the conviction that originally neither refrain nor burden had anything to do with this ballad. No one, making a song on the riddling theme, could have thought up the refrain on rational grounds, or have supposed it appropriate."
-B.H. Bronson (The "Child" Ballads: Fractures in Tradition, paper of 1966)
Bronson goes on to suggest that the lines derive from an earlier, quite different song of the same title, which is not identified. He also quotes a number of variants of Child #2 found in the United States, which have taken nonsense refrains to a whole new level, Keedle up a keedle up a turp turp tay, Tum a lum a do, castle on my nay being one! |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: pavane Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:40 AM I will listen to Martin Carthy's version again and see if I can hear anything more - or can we ASK Martin what he actually sang/sings? |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:32 AM Come on, everybody. Nobody has answered the important question "What is "baba and the lily va' really supposed to be?" Last year I, a Yank, took a cruise on an English boat, and most of my dinner-table companions talked like this all week. If English is to remain a medium of communication around the world, we have to help each other out in matters like this. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: pavane Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:50 AM DO they all have the twist in the tale? That was the whole point of the song. So many people lose the meaning when they retell stories. I remember one longish joke about the origin of the yodel. It ended with the punch line 'And your old Lady' (supposed to sound like a yodel, of course). I once heard some end it with 'And your old woman too'. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: Snuffy Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:35 AM Pavane, Royal Forester is a version of Child #110. There are 5 versions in the DT database (Knight & Shepherd's Daughter), and many more in the forum. |
Subject: RE: question on Outlandish Knight From: pavane Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:13 AM I suppose so - and I never DID understand where he just happened to find a sickle handy, ' to cut down the nettles that grow so close to the brim'! |
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