Tuning a 12 string Guitar

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:53 AM

Just a thought... part of the character of a 12-string is the slight imperfections in tuning that give it the 'jangly' sound.

Gordon Giltrap recorded 'Ive's Horizon' ('Contemporary Guitar Sampler' compilation) back in 1968 (engineered by Bill Leader) on a Harmony 12 string. He recently re-recorded it on his new, very odd looking Fylde 12-string with fan fretting... the recording ('Shining Morn' CD) is perfectly in tune, and I'm afraid that, for me, it has lost all the drive and excitement of the original recording...

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM

Some-one may have said this earlier but I solved 90% of my tuning problems when I bought a Freshman 12 string. As part of the electric pick-up it has a built in tuner with the usual flashing lights and with a needle/display which tells you all the notes (#s included). I can't understand why they don't build this into all guitars with electrics fitted.

So tuning is easy - it's the playing I still have to figure out.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:18 AM

The correct way to fit strings in a pin bridge is to gently push the ball-end into the pin hole using the pin, keeping a little tension on the string.

When you feel the pin slip past the ball-end, push the pin the rest of the way but without any extra pressure. You will find the string will not pull the pin out, because the pin is doing its job - to deflect the ball-end so that it is pulling against the undeside of the belly, not the pin.

You should also find that the next time you change the strings, the pins should come out easily without the need for a tool. Simply push the string down the hole a little, and the pin should come out without any effort.

My Yamaha FG260 (circa 1970) has been at concert pitch for its entire life, and is showing no signs of fatigue.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Brian May
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM

With an electronic tuner, putting new strings (Newtones 10-47) on my Guild G212 takes about 30 minutes from start to finish.

I find I tune it up to just ABOVE concert (wind the octave G SLOoowly) and let it settle for about an hour on its stand.

Go back and tune to concert, you'll often find that it's settled below concert pitch as the guitar and strings get to know each other.

After that, I'm fat, dumb and happy.

I used to finger pick my EKO Ranger in the 60s, but can't get a sound I like out of the Guild, so I use a soft flatpick.

The nut width is the same as my Martins and feels a bit crowded down there - however, persevere and it'll get sorted.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: morning wood
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

"I put new strings on my 12 string Tanglewood two days before Rochester Sweeps and could not get it too tune 'I couldn't get a note out of It?"

Perhaps you should stop stringing your guitar like this then Pierre!!

Novel stringing

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,Guest (Mark Bluemel)
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

Q: How long does it take to tune a 12-string guitar?
A: It's too soon to tell, but research is continuing....

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Mark Ross
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM

Lead Belly used to tune his 12 string down to B or Bflat. He had a unison 3rd course and a double octave on the 6th.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM

Hi Uncle Rumpo
Firstly I dont moan?
Well I have been known" when in bed"

You clearly did not read my thread.
I was at Sweeps not a bloody AC/DC Concert.
I Have done more then a few of them in me time,
I remember when...................................." Angus had real Hair?

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:37 PM

Someone upthread suggested pairing the 3d string, instead of using an octave. Gibson used to do that, and Gibson strings had no octave 3d, but most other makers of strings and guitars use an octave 3d string. If you want to pair it, you'll need to get a single G string of the same gauge, and you may run into problems with the nut slot being too narrow, since it was cut for a thin octave string.

Other'n that, you're good to go.

Bob

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:02 PM

.. or the Coral electic Sitar and its modern day budget priced derivatives..

or the effing autharp..

now start moaning about tuning up under pub rock gig conditions..

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:55 PM

To those who are concerned with tuning the twelve string:

It could be worse.

You could have The Worst Thing in the Whole World.

Peter

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Tangledwood
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

It was showing in tune on the tuner but it clearly was not in tune" so i missed out on a lot of playing' The strings just kept stretching but showing in tune. also the pegs kept popping up out the holes which didnt help?

There are two separate issues there - you won't have much luck tuning if the strings aren't installed securely. Next time you have a string off have a thorough inspection of just how the string sits in the bridge and how the peg holds it.

A tuner is likely to be confused by harmonics from other strings and this will be worse the greater number of strings you have. Try muting all strings except the one that you are trying to tune.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

I put new strings on my 12 string Tanglewood two days before Rochester Sweeps and could not get it too tune 'I couldn't get a note out of It?

It was showing in tune on the tuner but it clearly was not in tune" so i missed out on a lot of playing' The strings just kept stretching but showing in tune. also the pegs kept popping up out the holes which didnt help?

I am a newbie to the 12 string and really did not know what to do. I was concerned there was some thing wrong with the neck and the guitar is only six months old.

Indeed several folk tried to tune it on my behalf and all handed it back with concerned looks on faces and worrying comments.

Anyways Richard Bridge heard my concern and credit where credits due he took the 12 string outside whereby he was gone for some 5 minutes.

What he done to it my 12 string I wouldn't know. but he then reappeared with my guitar sat down and tuned it and 'HEY PRESTO'
I now tune the 12 the same way Richard did and I find it much easier and all problems are now sorted and the guitar sounds stunning.
THANKS RICHARD.
Regards Pierre.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,dan grigor
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:03 AM

This post has been moved to here

http://barefootmusicnews.com/blog1.php/2010/02/04/how-to-tune-and-play-a-12-string-guitar

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM

For what it's worth, Route 66 no longer exists. It's been replaced by a string of multilane limited access highways, Interstate 40 being the main one. For some reason, no one sings about it--

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM

I get my kicks on the 286 ?
My local bus.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

Or, as we in North Kent say

"Get your kicks
On the A226"

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM

upton under severn.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

It's the Brit equivalent to Route 66...!

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:51 AM

A440 goes into Upton on Severn [Won't Severn be plaesed]

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:34 AM

A440 is the standard referent for tuning, not E or D, so I try and stay in tune with the rest of the world to such degree as I can.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,Abdul on laptop
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:37 AM

Aha, that's where you got it Richard.

Al

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:29 AM

M Ted, you will then (as always with equal temperament) have, if you tune the fretted A on the top E string to the second octave of the fat A string (or the octave of the thin A string) a top open E that is not a perfect harmonic of the open A. What goes around comes around. So many chords use the three-way-unison of the bottom E string, the top E string, and the D string 2 frets up that it makes sense to use the E as your referent not the A. If you are playing in any drop D or DADGAD then the D is a sensible referent.

Another part of the problem is that apart from the saddle that Brian Rodgers built for me with each string (I mean each string, not each course) separately intoned every time you fret an octave course end-effect will mean your strings in that course will be out of tune.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:10 AM

I also found, it easier to distort the strings a bit when holding down a chord, with the 12, when I started with it. With practice you learn how much weight/pressure to exert. Using a capo is the same, too tightm and it really distorts, too loose, and it buzzes.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:52 AM

In fact, the B is generally the one out of tune, owing to the peculiar fact that, if you start with a note, takes its fifth, and the fifth of that, by the time you make it back around to the original pitch, you will in fact reach a pitch some 24 cents off of where the actual octave is, which will not sound good--so the frets are fudged a bit(this is, technically called tempering) so that the high e sounds where it should.

Unfortunately, this means that the open strings can't actually be tuned to perfect intervals, because then, when you tune that B a pure third above the G, it is going to be too high, so the b-e interval is going to sound a little squeezed, and the b-g(third fret on the e string) is going to be really awful because the g will be out of tune with the open G string.

At this point, it's going to seem like the problem is the e string, and when you try to tune it so it fits with the b and g strings, it is going to sound out of tune with the E and A, and that problem is going to be amplified by the fact that the low strings have octaves sounding.

To get the guitar (any guitar) in proper tune, you have to tune the A string first, then make sure that the A's on all the other strings are in perfect unison. This is somewhat complex, because it requires the use of harmonics, but it eliminates the need for electronic tuners, and you'll be amazed by the sound of the guitar when you're done.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:39 PM

I have been shown a pattern that stops that happening.
tune bottom E octave.first machine head. then thick E, and follow the machine heads down to the top Es.

Strict instruction given to me was follow this pattern do not start tuning any where.
So far som good.
Thanks Folks.

The G string is a sod but that because of the high tension.
regards Pierre.
I have not experience it yet but I bet when that G string snaps it can whip you.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:47 PM

Well, no, it's usually the G octave or D octave that starts it, but otherwise that is very fair as a summary.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM

The problem comes when you notice that a chord seems a bit off, so you find the B course is out, and tune the offending string back to pitch, then discover that, though the pair now match pitch, they are off from the E pitch above, but in tune to the G course below, so you retune E the course above, and when you've got it right, you strum a chord, only to find that
the e's are of from the octave of the low E string--so you check and make sure that the D G B are in tune, then check the Gs on the high E string, and decide that it is the octave of the low E that is out, so you retune it and match the lowest E string, then you play a G chord and discover that the B notes on the A course are out of tune with the open B course, and when you fix that, you notice that the high G string in the G course is a tad off, and when you tighten it, it breaks and when you put the spare on, it breaks, as well, and now you are playing an 11-string that is still out of tune. About this time, you decide the tune would reall sound better on your six string;-)

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Tangledwood
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:29 PM

Thanks KP, that an interesting link.
I'm pleased that you're finding no tuning problems Pierre. Have fun!

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 12:06 PM

Glad to hear its going well Pierre. You might be interested in this video lesson on the Acoustic Guitar website. Little bits of Leo Kottke (the great 12 string guitarist) analyzed, played slowly on a six string, and then quicker on a six and finally a 12. Great to hear the difference the 12 string makes!
Happy picking!

Acoustic Guitar Icons: Leo Kottke

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:22 PM

So far My Tanglewood is holding tuning very well indeed,Im surprised in regards to some of the posting on here that seemingly use that very thing has a warning. I have had no problems at all in regards to tuning, staying in tune ,Muddies the waters really?
Regards Pierre

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Tangledwood
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:38 PM

Well there you go. My Hohner 12 string holds its tuning much more reliably than my six string or mandolin. It is twenty five years older than them if that means anything.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: GUEST,Fossil at work
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:35 PM

Speaking as the owner, at various times and in various places of 10 an Eko Ranger 12; 2) an Ovation Celebrity 12 and now, (at last a good one!) - 3) a 29-year old Japanese-made Sigma 12 I can confidently say that tuning a 12 is neither easy nor pleasant.

The Sigma sounds great and doesn't go off-tune very easily, except if it is subjected to significant temperature changes. So I don't gig with it and it lives - on a stand - in the room I play it in the most.

Both the others would go out of tune if you looked at them sideways. The Ovation was the worst, possibly due to neck flexion, but if you played it long enough and tuned it between every song, it would eventually settle down. The Eko was good from the tuning point of view but was terribly heavy to play and not a very inspiring sound.

I very nearly gave up playing 12's altogether, but was tempted by the Sigma and I'm glad I fell! I think that a good-quality guitar should maintain tune. As to getting it there, I use a tuner for the lower four strings (D through bottom E) of the lower courses and then tune the octaves and the top four by ear. At least the Sigma holds the tune on the lowers no matter what you do on the octave strings, so it is fairly easy to get it all sounding nice.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:29 PM

50 Posts.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:00 PM

It appears Tanglewood knock out there 12 strings with Elixir string attached which is helpful because thats what my Guitar tech suggested I brought with me for the set up..

There is a issue Im fighting with Tanglewood over the flight case but I am confident all we be has ok ?

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM

having just been woken up by the cat and some what half asleep I post again.

I find finger picking the 12 string example /first finger route note and any of the strings underneath sounds good.
And all the Hammer on.s ring out much better then the six string.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:44 PM

Thank you for you advice.
I find picking with route not and any of the strings below sounds good and the hummer on really ring out?
Regards Pierre

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Tangledwood
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:06 PM

Should I keep a 12 string on a guitar stand in a central heated room or should I keep it in a coffin (Flight case) in a cool room ?

There doesn't seem to be much discussion on this subject relating to guitars, but on a mandolin forum it generates a great number of posts. The issue usually discussed isn't so much temperature as humidity. Consensus seems to be that allowing a wooden instrument to get too dry is a bad thing. A heated room can have very low humidity so mandolin players in that situation apparently place a humidifier in their instrument case.

Not specific to instruments, but generally speaking and not getting to the extremes of temperature - it's not the change from hot to cold or vice versa that is a problem; it's the rate of change that may cause damage. If accurate tuning is important, at a performance for example, allow adequate time for the instrument's temperature to stablise e.g. coming from a cool room to a hot stage.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM

I've never owned a 12, but over the years have had plenty of opportunities to play several of them.

"Easy to fingerpick"? I don't think so. For truly "clean" picking, you need to develop a touch that will sound both strings of each pair without touching either string of either adjacent pair.

I'm sure this can be accomplished, eventually, assuming that as the owner you will be playing/practicing regularly; for an occasional player like myself, picking up a different 12-string, belonging to a different friend, only on rare occasions, it's tricky.

Also, as noted above, on the four lower pairs of strings ("courses"?), where the two strings are tuned an octave apart, it makes a considerable difference in the sound whether the pair is played with an upstroke or downstroke. Standard fingerpicking technique would have you play your bass strings (3 of the 4, if not all 4, of the "octave-apart" courses) downstroking with the thumb. Conversely, you generally play your treble strings (the top two "unison" courses, plus the G/g octave pair) upstroking with your finger(s).

Admittedly, this is a pretty subtle distinction, and one you may not be able to do much about ~ but it's an interesting observation, and there may be songs/passages where you'll want to play certain notes on the middle courses (D/d and G/g) a certain way, either down with the thumb or up with a finger.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:40 PM

Keep it at the temperature you are going to use it at.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:18 PM

Should I keep a 12 string on a guitar stand in a central heated room or should I keep it in a coffin (Flight case) in a cool room ?

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:12 AM

My 12 string arrived yesterday
Tuning is easy start on the first machine head E octave and work your way down.
My clip on tuner tunes the main strings and the octave strings it sound great but the string are a bit high further up the neck so it will need a Rogering,

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:56 PM

The problem with tuning a 12-string is that you can lose track of where you started, and end up tuning a string that is on pitch to match one that is out of pitch, rather than the other way around. This can increase tuning time exponentially.

The easy way to avoid this is to simply tune it like a conventional six string first, then go back and match up the octave/unison strings. (which would generally mean tuning the 2nd string in each course first.

Not only is the 12-string a significantly different instrument from the 6-string, 12-strings from different makers often seem like different instruments entirely, requiring significantly different playing techniques, and offering different musical possibilities.

I had an old Harmony Sovereign that played like a regular six, and have played a good Mexican 12 that had to be fingered more like an acoustic bass. I once ran across a luthier-made half-size instrument that was   more like a melody instrument--

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:36 AM

Thank goodness. Unfortunately I know 3 idiots :)

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM

If you want the tuning FX Pete, I'll show you how to use my silly capos. But as with all "open tunings" you really have to be spot on in tune to get the right drone sounds.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM

Hi Nick
I brought the 12 string Nick not to drown other people out "that would be the actions of a idiot to spend good money solely for that reason.
I have brought a 12 string simply because Im intrerested in playing guitar and wish to broaden that interest.
Regards Pierre.

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Nick
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM

I meant to say - instruments change - habits don't

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Nick
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM

The one thing I hope, Pierre, is that you didn't buy it for the reason the other 3 people I know who bought them did.

WHICH WAS TO BE LOUDER THAN EVERYONE ELSE...

...rather than to see it as a different guitar option.

They just play them the same as a six string but just drown out more people than they used to do when they only played a six string.

:)

Subject: RE: Tuning a 12 string Guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:30 PM

There is one BIG difference about playing a 12. The direction of picking determines which string in a course dominates, so a chord played upswept sounds really quite like the same chord on a 6 string, whereas downswept it sounds more like a 6 in Nashville tuning. The same applies to picks of single strings apart of course from the B and top E which are in unison.