Origins: Fiddler's Green (John Conolly)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,John
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM

I am new here and not sure how all this works, but if the DT has the midi on file, could that mean that the song is recorded somewhere? I have been trying to find the Calavry version of Fiddler's Green for some time. Can anybody point me in the right direction to either downloading it or buying an album.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 02 - 02:11 PM

"Bugger is now commonly applied to the old" Well the bloke in the song is getting on a bit isn't he?

But I don't think in my experience there's any age implication. If a kid in a skateboard hared across the road in front of my car I'd certainly be quite likely to describe him as a silly bugger. Maybe there is a difference in usage.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 02 - 01:53 PM

A buff or buffer in the States is an enthusiast (follows fire engines and knows "more" about fire than the firefighters, etc.). Bugger is now commonly applied to the old, as in "that old bugger disses us." (i.e., an old disapproving codger) or, as pointed out in Webster's, used "affectionately". This may be a point of distinction from British usage.
"Bastard" is much more likely in practice but duffer was a word applied to Sad Sacks, pedlars and the useless (= old bugger or codger again) and would have been a possible substitute at the time in print.
Bugger was also used in the States for a rascal or a worthless person (and still is in some areas), often by those unaware of the application of the word to the Bulgars and sodomy, but, true, Sandburg and his editors with their knowledge of word meanings and history would have avoided it in the book.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 02 - 12:56 PM

I'd think "buffer" here is more likely to be a cautious substitute for "bugger". I understand that is stronger language in America than it is in some other places. (Even back in 1927 I doubt if it would have alarmed anyone this side of the ocean, going by a highly respectable relation aged 90.)

Subject: Lyr Add: TARPAULIN JACKET (Carl Sandburg)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 02 - 12:34 PM

TARPAULIN JACKET (Sandburg)

Wrap me up in my tarpaulin jacket
And say a poor buffer lies low, low, low;
And six stalwart lancers shall carry me
With steps mournful, solemn and slow.
I know I shan't get to heaven,
And I don't want to go below--ow--ow.
Oh, ain't there some place in between them
Where this poor buffer can go?

A brief variant of the one in the DT, from Sandburg, p. 436-437, The American Songbag, 1927. Frank Haworth, British Club, Havana.
Why this is included in Sandburg is open to question. Americans would be more likely to use "duffer" or "bastard."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 02 - 06:45 AM

Stan Hugill in his book Sailortown (1967) has a chapter "Fiddler's Green: a composite sailortown". He doesn't go into where the term comes from or how it got attached to the boozer and brothel and boarding-house area near the dicks around the world, he just uses it as a term to refer to it.

One such of course being the Holy Ground in Queenstown (Cork).

Stan's book is a sort of retrospective gazeteer of Sailortowns all round the world. Fleshes out what all the songs are about. Invaluable - and therefore naturally, out of print.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Hrothgar
Date: 26 May 02 - 02:00 AM

Where the beer is all gritty and the girls are all free.....

Subject: ZDTStudy: Fiddlers Green (DT Correction)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 02 - 10:38 PM

After listening to John Conolly's recording on the Trawlertown CD, I've added suggested corrections to the Digital Tradition transcription:

FIDDLER'S GREEN
(John Conolly)

As I roved by the dockside one evening so rare
To view the still waters and take the salt air,
I heard an old fisherman singing this song,
O take me away boys, my time is not long.

CHORUS
Dress me up in me oilskins and jumper,
No more on the docks I'll be seen,
Just tell me old shipmates
I'm taking a trip, mates,
And I'll see you someday in Fiddler's Green.

Now Fiddler's Green is a place I've heard tell
Where fishermen go if they don't go to Hell,
Where the weather is fair and the dolphins do play,
And the cold coast of Greenland is far, far away.

Now, the sky's always clear and there's never a gale,
And the fish jump on board with a flip of their tails;
You can lie at your leisure, there's no work to do,
And the skipper's below making tea for the crew.

And when you're in dock and the long trip is through,
Why, there's pubs and there's clubs, and there's lassies there, too;
Now the girls are all pretty and the beer is all free,
And there's bottles of rum growing on every tree.

I don't want a harp nor a halo, not me;
Just give me a breeze and a good rolling sea,
And I play me old squeeze box as we sail along
With the wind in the rigging to sing me this song.

Copyright 1970 for the World, March Music Ltd.
@sailor @death @chorus
filename[ FIDGREEN
Tune file : FIDGREEN

CLICK TO PLAY
SOF

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Any further comments, corrections, etc? The Traditional Ballad Index has no entry for this song, but note this:

Wrap Me Up in My Tarpaulin Jacket

DESCRIPTION: A dying sailor [lumberjack, stockman] bids his comrades farewell, asking them to "wrap me up" in his work clothing and make other arrangements for his funeral. (He recalls his early life and hopes to sleep undisturbed)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: before 1826 (broadside, Bodleian Harding B 25(1594))
KEYWORDS: dying death funeral burial sailor logger shepherd
FOUND IN: Britain Canada(Newf) US Australia
REFERENCES (15 citations):
Friedman, p. 439, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text)
Meredith/Anderson, pp. 90-91, 226, "The Dying Stockman"; pp. 118-119, "The Dying Bagman" (3 texts, 3 tunes); also probably pp. 264-265, "Cant-Hook and Wedges" (2 texts)
Fahey-Eureka, pp. 170-171, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text, 1 tune)
Paterson/Fahey/Seal, pp. 221-223, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text)
AndersonStory, pp. 232-233, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text, 1 tune, plus another "Dying Stockman" poem from about the same time)
Sandburg, pp. 436-437, "Wrap Me Up in My Tarpaulin Jacket and The Handsome Young Airman" (2 short texts, 1 tune, with the "A" text going here and the "B" text being "The Dying Aviator")
Thorp/Fife XIII, pp. 148-190 (29-30), "Cow Boy's Lament" (22 texts, 7 tunes, the "K" text being in fact a version of "The Old Stable Jacket")
Manifold-PASB, pp. 82-83, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text, 2 tunes)
Meredith/Covell/Brown, pp. 281-282, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text, 1 tune)
Greenleaf/Mansfield 47, "Tarpaulin Jacket" (2 texts)
Leach-Labrador 98, "Jolly Best Lad" (1 text, 1 tune)
Peacock, pp. 880-881, "A Rambling Young Fellow" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT TARPJCKT*
ADDITIONAL: Kenneth Lodewick, "'The Unfortunate Rake" and His Descendants,'" article published 1955 in _Western Folklore_; republished on pp. 87-98 of Norm Cohen, editor, _All This for a Song_, Southern Folklife Collection, 2009
A. K. MacDougall, _An Anthology of Classic Australian Lore_ (earlier published as _The Big Treasury of Australian Foiklore_), The Five Mile Press, 1990, 2002, p. 237, "The Dying Stockman" (1 text)
Roud #829
RECORDINGS:
Frank Crumit, "Wrap Me Up in My Tarpaulin Jacket" (HMV [UK] B-8032, c. 1933)
John Greenway, "The Dying Stockman" (on JGreenway01)
Tex Morton, "Wrap Me Up With My Stockwhip and Blanket" (Regal Zonophone [Australia] G22904, n.d.)

BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Harding B 25(1594)[some illegible words], "The Rakish Young Fellow," Angus (Newcastle), 1774-1825 ; also Harding B 11(3215), Harding B 16(218b), Harding B 25(1595)[some illegible words], Harding B 16(219a), Harding B 11(1211), Harding B 11(3216), Firth c.22(67)[almost entirely illegible but what is legible is recognizable as this song], Harding B 11(680), "[The] Rakish Young Fellow"
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Dying Aviator"
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Old Stable (Sable) Jacket
Derrydown Fair
NOTES: Compare the modern song "Fiddler's Green," which may have been inspired by this piece.
The number of parodies of this piece ("The Dying Stockman," "The Dying Lumberman") is astonishing, but most seem to have evolved rather than being deliberate rewrites. The Australian version known as "Cant-Hook and Wedges" claims to be an exception; the informants claim to have written it. Certainly the piece has modern elements (e.g. a reference to the Model T Ford), but one is still inclined to doubt that it was created deliberately.
On the other hand, Gwenda Beed Davey and Graham Seal, A Guide to Australian Folklore, Kangaroo Press, 2003, p. 94, claim that "The Dying Stockman" was "Probaby adapted by Horace Flower in the 1890s from any number of similar songs in English-language tradition," but they identify it as being from the "Unfortunate Rake" family, mentioning "Tarpaulin Jacker" only secondarily. - RBW
The contemplator.com Songs of England site has a version beginning "A tall stalwart lancer lay dying" with a note that "This appears in the Scottish Student's Handbook. The words were written by G. J. Whyte-Melville (1821-1878). The air was written by Charles Coote."
It is too easy to get hung up on the "wrap me up" line as a unique marker. In Peacock the line is just to "dress up in blue jacket and trousers," but that is the only substantial difference between Peacock and the broadsides. - BS
Last updated in version 4.1
File: FR439

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Subject: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 May 02 - 09:37 PM

Re. Horace Beck: any 20th century writer who uses the self-conscious archaism faery has to be pretty suspect as an authority, and his credulous acceptance of Shoals of Herring as a traditional song (presumably he believed it to be Irish, and never listened to the radio) suggests considerable ignorance, given that his book was first published in 1973.

That said, his general observation (if we ignore his irrelevant references to fairies and "pre-Christian" beliefs) seems reasonable. Roy Palmer (Oxford Book of Sea Songs, reprinted 2001 as Boxing the Compass) comments:

"Fiddler's Green was the generic term for sailortown, the district in large ports which catered for the sailor's needs by providing boarding houses, dance halls, public houses, brothels, and seamen's homes. By extension it was the sailor's ideal world, Eden, Utopia, Paradise."

Unfortunately, he doesn't give references.

Further to my earlier quote from English Dance and Song, the following letter, from Phil Barker, appeared in vol.61 no.4 (Winter 1999). I quote it, very slightly edited, without comment:

"...the place has evolved a little since ... [Locus Fidelis in Gremio]... The first extension was that there were other professions that needed a similar place, since the habits of even upright practitioners rendered them unsuitable companions for the Godly. Chief of these undesirable habits was habitual swearing, but others included excessive drinking, songs and dances of questionable taste and refusing to part from favourite animals. The people particularly singled out were working sailors, itinerant musicians (so we are all in with a chance) and cavalrymen (but not, surprisingly, other soldiers).
Back in the early '60s there was a traditional song in the United States armoured cavalry regiments which stated that Fiddler's Green was an oasis on the road to Hell (and apparently quite close since the dance hall gals from West Hell were allowed to come over on Saturday nights) which had acquired the last wet canteen in the U.S. Army when that force went officially non-alcoholic. Occasionally, some hardened hell-bent trooper would fill up his water bottle with booze and ride off down the road, but he always ran out of liquor before he got there and had to turn back.
Note that like the sailor's version in the article, this version places Fiddler's Green well inland. However, while the ideal retirement venue for an old sailor was traditionally to walk inland with an oar over his shoulder until someone asked him what it was, I feel a sailor's heaven really needs some sea so he can gaze on it and know that he never, never has to go on it again."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 02 - 08:24 PM

"Fresh blows the wind, a western wind,
And from the shores of Erin.
Across the wave, a rover brave,
To Binnorie was steering,...Wordsworth
From "The Seven Sisters"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: curmudgeon
Date: 25 May 02 - 08:11 PM

MacColl did write the Shoals of Herring, but it slipped rapidly into the folk process. Not long after its first radio broadcast, a collector had the tune from an Irish Tinker who gave the title as The Shores of Erin.

Many fair and pleasant days -- Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:57 PM

Didn't Ewan McColl write Shoals of Herring?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:50 PM

Beat me by one minute.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:48 PM

Nice discovery, Crane Driver. It immediately struck fire in my poor little brain and I looked in the Oxford English Dictionary. The definition is "the sailors' Elyseum, in which wine, women and song figure prominently."
The first quote is from 1805: "My grannan....used to tell me that animals, when they departed this life, were destined to be fixed in Fiddlers Green." 1836: "It is believed that tailors and musicians after death were cantonned in a place called Fiddler's Green." 1837: "We shape a course for Fiddler's Green" (Marryat). 1883, Kelly: "The pilotless narrows, which lead to Fiddler's Green, where all good sailors go."
The origin would have to be at least 18th C. Not only sailors, but animals, tailors and musicians (just Mudcat musicians or all? Rappers and Heavy Metal as well?) go there. Members of the US Cavalry go there.
It must be a crowded place.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:47 PM

"Fiddler's Green had its origins in 18th century sailing lore. Common seamen, who repaired their lines with a splicing tool called a fid, dreamed of a sailor's heaven, where after the long voyage their every desire would be fulfilled." Whether that's true, I've no idea, but it's an interesting suggestion as to where the actual word comes from. (That comes from here

And according to this site, there's an entry in the Oxford English Dictionary with the first referance to (as the sailor's paradise) dating to 1825.

And the same site gives the Cavalry prayer as first printed in 1923 - though said to date from soon after the Civio War. From the style of it I'd suspect it might be a good deal later, and written retrospectively, maybe on the basis of something from that earlier time. It reads to me like someone who's read his Kipling. (Though of course it could always have been the other way round - that last verse of the Kipling's Barrack Room Ballad always reads to me like it might have been based on a genuine soldier's rhyme.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:42 PM

Gareth,

I suspect that piece of advice (either Kipling's or the cavalry version) has been handed down throughout time.
I dare say there was some Reoman decurian muttering to some of his men words to the effect "If you're wounded and and can't get away and we can't get to you, better to open your own veins than be caught by the [insert local hostile tribe name here]".

Walrus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: curmudgeon
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:37 PM

From Horace Beck"s Folklore and the Sea:

Sailors when they die, especially if they die at sea, are said to go to Davy Jones' Locker, which is a euphemism for the devil and hell; but if they are decent chaps they are believed to end up in Fiddler's Green, and undersea paradise not unlike Faeryland ( the words "fiddler" and "green" both are associated with faeries). For that matter, it is not greatly different from the underwater home of the mer and seafolk, thus linking Christian and pre-Christian concerpts together through the picture of Paradise.

While I cannot vouch for Beck's scholarship, this is an interesting interpretation> in the section on songs he includes "The Bonny Shoals of Herring" as a traditional fisherman's song. He personally colleceted it in Dingle, but did not seem to know any more about it.

But I'll see you someday...

Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Gareth
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:14 PM

The late Patrick O'Brien - Author of the Aubry/Maturin novels makes mention of Fiddlers Green once or twice. Now this is not proof of it's historical accuracy, but O'Brien was noted for his usage of contemporary dialect, and historical records in his novels. I suggest this poses some indication to the Age of that saying.

The USA cavalry version has some, but only some, resemblance to the Last Verse of " The Young British Soldier"

Question. Is there a connection ?

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen

Or am I being a little cynical ?

Clicky to the Kipling Collection

Gareth

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Crane Driver
Date: 25 May 02 - 06:59 PM

I just found the following in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable :

Fiddler's Green. The land of the leal or "Dixie Land" of sailors; where there is perpetual mirth, a fiddle that never ceases to untiring dancers, plenty of grog, and unlimited tobacco.

Unfortunately my edition of Brewer is undated, but I believe the book was first published in the 1870s, although the work of compiling it must have begun much earlier. So the phrase must have been current at least by the first half of the 19th century.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 02 - 10:59 PM

Good story! Goes well with the one about "Taps" (current thread, Union officer finding dead Confederate son) and the memorable one by Catspaw about the true story behind Bobbie Gentry's "Ode to Billy Joe." There are others in Mudcat threads- someone should collect them.
I thought it might appear in an old seaman's or fisherman's song,, or possibly a novel. The oldest occurrence apparently is in the cavalry song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 May 02 - 10:10 PM

An article by W. Saunders in The Nautical Magazine of August 1929 apparently traced Fiddlers' Green back to a corruption of Locus Fidelis in Gremio; a place to which sailors who died at sea without the benefit of absolution might be assigned. The piece was reproduced in English Dance and Song (vol.61, no.2, Summer 1999), having been found and submitted by Cyril Tawney. It sounds like a wind-up to me, but nevertheless the following, "paraphrased" from an account given by "a boatswain of Leith", is quite evocative:

"When sailormen die they go to a place where there is one interminable stretch of green and undulating pasture-land upon which the sun never ceases to shine, and through which fish-laden brooks and rivers dance and sparkle on their way towards some infinite far horizon. Sheep, horses, cattle and other animals -for the deep-sea sailor clearly loves a beast- with their playful young, browse all around, and the atmosphere is redolent with the sweet scents of numberless flowers, and vibrant with the song of countless birds. But in this paradise no officer may ever dwell. In the midst of all this charm and beauty, there lies a mighty bottomless pit into which all officers are incontinently pitched. On the edge of the pit the sailor man may sit and contemplate, with unrestrained satisfaction, while he turns his quid or complacently puffs at his blackened clay, the seething mass of quarterdeck humanity being stirred about unceasingly by Davy Jones himself, who wields a gigantic trident specially adapted for the purpose of keeping them going. And the sailor man is not prohibited from casting an occasional pebble or jeering epithet upon any officer of his own particular acquaintance who may happen to come to the surface as the mass is stirred about.

And that, he concluded, is Davy Jones' Locker."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 02 - 04:02 PM

Relatives and friends in Georgia. They use Calvary for both the mount and mounted soldiers. I think this usage goes quite a ways back; how the confusion started, I don't know.
My feeling is like Dave Bryant's, I thought the term Fiddlers' Green is old, but I can't find any references.
Mention of Dana's "Two Years...." made me check his "Dictionary of Sea Terms" but all I found was "Fiddlehead," the carving at the prow of a ship if it bends in, in a curve like the head of a fiddle.
Not in Lever's "Dictionary of Sea Terms" either.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: IanC
Date: 24 May 02 - 11:38 AM

Lawks a'mussy ... and there's me thinking Jesus died on a hill, and all the time he rode to his death.

;-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 May 02 - 11:36 AM

"Cavalry baptists" ride into the baptismal pool on horseback!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 May 02 - 11:35 AM

Mmario: should that be "Cavalry version" (mounted soldiery), rather than "Calvary version" (The mount on which Christ was crucified) ?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Jacob B
Date: 24 May 02 - 11:30 AM

I've just tried searching the text of Two Years Before The Mast (at Bartleby.com) for the word "fiddler", and got no hits.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 02 - 10:44 AM

I'm sure that "Fiddler's Green" appeared in Dana's TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST but I can't find the citation now. That would date the term to the early 1800's.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 May 02 - 10:38 AM

Fiddler's Green has been used (rather in the way of Davey Jones' Locker) to denote heaven (or anyway the place after death) by sailors for a considerable time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Sir Roger at Work
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:38 AM

John Conolly is guesting at the People's Voice Folk Festival, Beverley over the weekend of 21st - 23rd June. As you all know by now, the festival is completely free including free camping(book that early to avoid disappointment - they are re-seeding part of the campsite and we only have about 40% of the usual space).

Check out the website on www.hammonda.fsnet.co.uk

R

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:22 AM

There's a pub in Clonakillty, County Cork called 'Fiddlers Green'. I'm sure the building predates 1923 but Idon't know if it had that name originally.

Cheers - Captain Swing

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:52 PM

The term Fiddlers' Green is widespread. What is the origin?

"Fiddlers' Green" first appeared in 1923 in the "Cavalry Journal." It is believed to have been composed and used by the soldiers of the 6th and 7th Cavalry and may date from the post-Civil war period in the west. No author is known.
The 11th Field Artillery Regiment has borrowed the song, and substituted "Souls of many departed Redlegs...." The second and last verses are omitted.

I would like to hear of any use of the song or words before the Cavalry song or the modern song by John Connolly from Grimsby, England.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:15 PM

John Connelly was at Folk at Frampton (Gloucs, Village Hall every Tues) bewtween gigs and entertaining us. He sang this of course and It was as you would expect though FWIW he sings "in Fiddlers Green" not "on Fiddlers Green". AND he admitted he changes things sometimes so Punch & Judy Man is different now and I still prefer the original. That's the way to do it, rooty tooty toot.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: DADGBE
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:54 PM

My all-time favorite lyrics balls-up happened when I inadvertantly sang, "...And the skipper's below making love to the crew." Now I can't sing it the original way any more. With a tip of the hat to Dr. Freud.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:55 AM

Unless you are looking for the mid 1800's one - Fiddlers Green - Cavalry version

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fiddlers Green
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:45 AM

Its in the DT here

Subject: Fiddlers Green
From: jimlad
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:44 AM