Commercial popular music

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Ernest
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:40 PM

GSS,

you still haven`t convinced me: I believe Ewan McColl knew that Peggy Seeger wanted a song for the play that she was appearing in - so maybe he had no intention to make money with the song, but help her to make money with the play. Once somebody is making music as part of making a living, money is at least an issue on the side.

In my point of view the difference between a good and a bad song is not about the money, but about the understanding/feelings one has about the topic of the song - plus of course some "technical" knowledge about composing, instrumentation etc. and putting it together with the lyrics.

As to the songwriters you mentioned I am afraid I don`t know any of these names - can you name some of their songs that might be known?

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM

No 2. As I asked Dick, and he declined to answer.....Colin, what is it about terrace songs that excludes them from being folk in your opinion? Most academics would classify them as 'folk'.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,colin holt
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:06 AM

Can we go back to the original questions... as so often, they get lost in the mix
1.will commercially popular song,[eg songs written purely to make money] ever erase songs written by people who write purely for fun.

How can they be erased... question makes no sense at all. Something written just to make money does not automatically become popular, and therefore not commercially successful. A Song has to be liked by a lot of people before it becomes popular.... it has to be purchased by a lot of people to be commercially successful..
2.do commercially popular songs songs become folk music if they are sung on football terraces and adapted by singing sports fans.
No to that one ....
.Surely.. Most professional writers do so with the notion that they will be commercially popular. (earn a living ).. The best of them make the songs they write sound as though they are heart felt !!!!!They make a connection....and its seamless seamless Nothing wrong in that Dick !!. So cleverly done you would never know !!..

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

... forgot to sign; sorry.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

May I add that what really worries me about the entertainment industry is the shows on TV and other media, in which presenters sell songs and other items as if they were the real world. Faked song contests and casting shows, news that are either blatant lies or amount to that by their selectiveness, etc.

Compared to that, all songs and novels etc. are completely honest, since they are openly declared fictional.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:58 AM

yes we are i have named song writers who wrote commercial recordings for the sole intent of making money, their wotk may be popular but that does not make it good. nobody else as yet has given an example of 20 or 21st century popular music that was written with the sole intent of making money , that was any good. There is no proof that Gershwin wrote solely for money, the guys i mentioned did and their songs are ephemeral

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:57 AM

The phenomenon meant by the OP undoubtedly exists, but the phrase "purely to make money" does not describe it properly. I suggest "Successful songs in whose message the writer did not believe". Evidence can be either the song itself, in which case it is a bad song, or knowledge about the writer's convictions or lifestyle.

For example, the hippie movement was shamelessly exploited by writers whose lifestyle was definitely bourgeois. Nevertheless, they may have had fun and artistic satisfaction from disguising as hippies.

We must face it: entertainment business, including serious art and literature, will always look for trends in society to exploit. We may call that cynicism, but what really counts is the results.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:54 AM

Even bad music can be well written. We're not there yet, are we, Dick?

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM

well written songs can undoubtedly be defined that is not a matter of taste

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM

joe, the following
Steve mac, wayne hector,David Krueger, Jorgen Elofsson, Per Magnusson Anders Bagge, Laila Bagge, H. Sommerdah, S. Diamond         Karl Twigg, Lance Ellington, Mark Topham,ned albright, red baldwin jeff allbright roger atkins.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:34 AM

Indeed, Joe. And the other variable in the equation is one's definition of "good quality songs" - one man's meat, etc.

I've heard excellent songs in the genres of folk, jazz, pop, opera, blues, and so on - and I've heard utterly crap songs in all those same genres. So...?

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM

I think, Dick, that people are asking that you give some examples of successful songwriters who write "with the sole intention of making money." There are very few people who do anything well, if they do it "with the sole intention of making money."

I think you're arguing against something that really doesn't exist.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:12 AM

I'm with SteveS

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:28 PM

"If you want to believe that writing songs with the sole intention of making money is the best criteria for producing good quality songs then you are welcome."

Nobody said that. 'Cept you.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:08 PM

If you want to believe that writing songs with the sole intention of making money is the best criteria for producing good quality songs then you are welcome.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:31 PM

Cole Porter wrote "Miss Otis Regrets" for a bet.

He was in a New York restaurant one lunchtime with a circle of friends, one of whom bet him that he couldn't write a song based on the next thing they heard spoken near their table (so the story goes). A waiter appeared at the next table and said, "Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today, madame."

And so was born one of the shortest and most poignant ballads ever written - in my view - encapsulating a seduction, a betrayal, a murder and a lynching in just 3 simple verses. How's that for a murder ballad? I think it's one of the greatest popular song ever written, along with "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime?"

It was originally supposed to be sung by a black female singer (whose name escapes me), but was actually performed on the stage for the first time by the brilliant female impersonator, cabaret artist and pantomine dame Douglas Byng. Dougie - whose punchline was "Bawdy, but British" lived his last days in Brighton - and it was he who told me the story of how the song came to be written.

So - what's the motive for writing the song here? A bet, amusement, performance, money? Who gives a toss - it's a great song. Full stop.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:26 PM

Now guys. Dick has painted himself into a corner here. The merciful thing to do would be to commence a period of silence. Only if you're the merciful type, mind. :-)

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:26 PM

Dick I'm really surprised that you have not taken the opportunity to present yet another of your sad blue clickies to make a pointless thread even more pointless

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:57 PM

'and ridicuously pedantic comments from S Gardham,'

Could you remind us which ones on this thread you thought were ridiculously pedantic, Dick? Just interested.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:26 PM

'songs written by poeople who write purely for fun.'

Can you give us some examples, Dick?

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:24 PM

I listen and and then make judgements on everything.
I applaud anyone who has a go at anything creative, particularly if their love of making music for the sake of it is evident, if they ask me for advice,i will try and help as best that i can.
if someone gets up and says I have written this song, because i want to be a star,and appear on x factor, my attitude would be different, do you understand where i am coming from?

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:25 PM

yes 50 years ago - the Monkees were a manufactured band - no big surprise or secret.

Guess what.. rumour has it so were The Archies..


What is widely acknowledged is that the songs written for them
were produced by the best and brightest professional songwriting teams and session musicians of that era.

Many of their records are established respected and cherished classics.

You don't approve, and dismiss then and their ilk as banal...

ok - well.. we've all known or been amateur songwriters, those who write only for fun & self expression,
who's entire output of songs have been dismal shite...

To call some of them banal would be a great compliment...


.. no big deal.. the world keeps turning...

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:10 PM

This thread makes me realise why I hear folkies snigger when Mudcat is mentioned.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:04 PM

now if i wanted to be rude i would tell you to fuck off, but i have not despite silly provocation, and ridicuously pedantic comments from S Gardham,
yes of course broadsheets were written for pennies so in a pedantic sense he is correct, but broadsheets being sold for pennies is vastly different from manufactured groups like the monkees and later boy bands performing rehashed banalites, which Provided financial benefit to the record producers and management of these musical simpletons

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:34 PM

... & further re Richard Rodgers, the songs he wrote with lyrics by Lorenz Hart, before he teamed up with Hammerstein after Hart's death, are well worth considering. Are there many songs better than "Lady is a Tramp"? And Hammerstein had plenty of fine form to cite, from his earlier collaboration with Kern on Show Boat, for instance. Ole Man River not too PC these days perhaps; but Paul Robeson sang it without demur, it would seem.


≈M≈

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:19 PM

seriously Dick - while you are googling dictionary definitions - check out 'spurious' & 'irrelevant'...


and errrr.... perhaps maybe 'irreverence' & 'truce'... 😜

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:59 PM

😇

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:57 PM

From: Ernest - PM
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:58 PM

As MGM Lion quoted in the "Actors who play/sing folk music" thread:

"Many of MacColl's best-known songs were written for the theatre. For example, he wrote "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" very quickly at the request of Peggy Seeger, who needed it for use in a play she was appearing in..."

I presume one had to pay an admission fee to see the play - so it seems to be written for commercial reasons too.

Now how does that change the value of the song, GSS?
dont be ridiculous
as far as I am aware the song was written after a telephone
conversation between MacColl and Seeger, she requesting a song, Ewan wrote it for her. MacColl did not write it for the purpose of making money, he wrote it because he was expressing how he felt for peggy seeger.
to say that something is a facile comment, is not rude, please look it up in the dictionary
superciliious means disdainful, my comments were statements of fact, the rudeness came later from punkfolk rocker

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:18 PM

I am curious as to why you would start a thread and then be so rude and disrespectful to so many who have responded to your post. If you don't want people to disagree with you, don't post. This is a forum, not a soapbox.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:58 PM

As MGM Lion quoted in the "Actors who play/sing folk music" thread:

"Many of MacColl's best-known songs were written for the theatre. For example, he wrote "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" very quickly at the request of Peggy Seeger, who needed it for use in a play she was appearing in..."

I presume one had to pay an admission fee to see the play - so it seems to be written for commercial reasons too.

Now how does that change the value of the song, GSS?

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,gillymorg4
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:55 PM

Your man McColl wrote some excellent songs but he never wrote a lyric that rivaled the best of Ira Gershwin, Lorenz Hart, Cole Porter or the other great lyricists from the golden age of song

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:44 PM

... and another thing, I see absolutely no reason to stop me enjoying Dick's youtube videos
of him fingering his squeebox and interpreting good old trad songs
as much as I can can find pleasure in some obscure Herman's Hermits B sides and LP tracks...


..depends on the mood I'm in...

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:30 PM

.. I meant Richard as in Dick there, of course.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:29 PM

I wouldn't say that of some of the Hammerstein lyrics in such as Oklahoma & S Pacific, Richard.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:24 PM

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:34 AM

Masters of War is a rip off of Nottamun Town.
another facile comment, it is a use of a traditional tune that was only found in the richie family, the words are original, nothing unusual about that songwriters in ireland use tradtional tunes all the time, the words are original and powerful.
"The Gershwins, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin et al wrote thousands of beautiful, heartfelt songs for Broadway musicals with the intention of "packing them in" and in the process produced many of the greatest songs ever written."
a matter of opinion, they may be melodically interesting, lyric wise its the same old rehashed pap

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,gillymorg4
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

The Gershwins, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin et al wrote thousands of beautiful, heartfelt songs for Broadway musicals with the intention of "packing them in" and in the process produced many of the greatest songs ever written.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:39 AM

Dick - with all due disrespect - you cannot sit up there in your damp dusty shrine of self-righteous superiority
pronouncing all you dislike as 'facile' 'banal' childish', or 'unworthy' of your wise sagelike consideration...


From down here you do make yourself look somewhat pompous, ignorant and silly...😐

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:34 AM

Masters of War is a rip off of Nottamun Town.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:21 AM

Basically, none of us and the vast majority of music lovers need to justify or apologize our enjoyment of all kinds of music
to a useless minority of dead in the ears & heart & heart old dogmatic fundamentalists..
a very offensive statement,
Iam not asking anyone to apologise for anything.
my belief is that the best commercial songs were not written with the intention of being a commercial success, and that all the best written songs were written because the writer felt strongly about his subject and his motive was not solely to make money, I would classify three songs immediately in this category, masters of war, imagine, first time ever.
now i do not know, about the first two, but i think its unlikely, it has been recorded, why MacColl wrote the last song and it was not to be a number one hit. now punk folk rocker reead my posts and stop making childish and offensive comments

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:13 AM

Basically, none of us and the vast majority of music lovers need to justify or apologize our enjoyment of all kinds of music
to a useless minority of dead in the ears & heart & heart old dogmatic fundamentalists... 😣

If they don't get it - f@ck 'em... it's their loss... 😜

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:55 AM

How nice to see "wireless" and "lie down", the latter as distinct from "lay down" which might be more fun although less restful.

How about Billy Idol's "White Wedding" - that really gets them yelling along on the dance floor, and "Hi Ho Silver Lining"?

And some of Pink's stuff is damned fine too.

Christina Aquilera is fun but "Horny" is not great literature.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:42 AM

Well done, Steve: "wireless" not "radio". Jolly U! Nancy Mitford would have been proud of you!

≈M≈

Now, back to my nice lie-down -- nothing if not obedient to my masters!...

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:30 AM

Lyrics are for singing and not every lyric needs to have meaning, they can just be fun. 'The Young Ones" (as has been mentioned) is a great singalong, as is 'Highway to Hell' by AC/DC or 'When Jones' Ale was New'.

There's heaps of really good music being made now, by talented young musicians who write wonderful songs. Spend a couple of days listening to BBC 6 Music and revel in the diversity and joy of all genres modern, old, folk, rock, pop and everything else.

Why close your mind off? Life's too short!

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:27 AM

Anyone who wants less of it simply needs to turn the wireless off!

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:24 AM

An interesting book review, Joe_F, though it didn't really explain to me why you want less of it. The more that's out there, the bigger the choice. It might take more effort to sort the wheat from the chaff but it should be possible to find something that suits.

The first thing it shows, for me, is how subjective the appreciation of music can be. The reviewer sets out his own stall by the comment:

"Briefly, in my book popular music peaked about 1900 and became vile about 1940."

but, for me, the period between the two world wars was the Golden Age. Others, of course, will have their own views.

DC

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:58 AM

Just watched the Steve Coogan/Rob Bryden film The Trip, in which they sing the Abba song "The Winner Takes it All", and had to admit to myself that that is actually a very well-written song. It certainly seems heart-felt, the way "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" does.

No one here can claim to know what was motivating a songwriter at the moment of creation (although reams of speculation have been published analyzing, say, Bob Dylan's work). All that counts is whether the song speaks to you, engages you on some level. If it engages many, it becomes a commercial success; if it engages few, it may still be an artistic success. The two are not the same; neither are they mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:02 AM

thankyou for that book review,at last a post worthy of reading.
the young ones is an example of banal lyrics Smedley.

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:03 PM

Why I wish there were less of it:
Book review

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:45 PM

I think that the idea of songs written "purely for commercial purposes" is, for the most part, a myth I used to believe in. But as I study a wider variety of music, I find genius in all genres. Sure, there are lots of flops, but the flops are not all commercial.

I've been following Taylor Swift's recordings lately. Her "Mean" is a classic. I think she's an extraordinary songwriter, and very clever and insightful. When I researched songs for the "Millennials" chapter of the Rise Again songbook, I was amazed at the intelligence of lyrics of songs that were popular when my kids were teenagers.

Here's a very commercial song, Feist's 1, 2, 3, 4, released in 2007. And here's the Sesame Street version.

Oh, and here's Sons and Daughters, recorded by the Decemberists.

There's still a lot of very good music being written - some of it for profit.

-Joe-

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:07 PM

Oops, sorry about that. I was about to say that the listening to any music is an entirely voluntary pastime. You're entitled to your opinion, but, get all heavy about it and, well, you'll look like a bit of a twit, frankly.