Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,GUEST, Wee Pat
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM

just a filling piece as I have lived in the area......

the mcerlanes are still plentiful in the Ballyscullion area where Roddy was supposedly betrayed by both the mcerlanes and the duffins. There is an old story in the area of the widow mcerlane stirring the pot of porridge saying it wasn't warm enough - biding her time until the militia came for Roddy. The Mcerlanes still get chided for their part even to this day - its like an unwanted stain on their character.

As to whether Roddy was catholic or protestant - I always heard he was a protestant but from a mixed marriage. His father owned a mill in the Duneane townland (at lismacloskey or milltown) both of which are right beside the COI church he his buried at. Incidentally, I know numerous people who claim to be related to him and all are catholic as are the Mcerlanes and duffins from ballyscullion.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:10 PM

Never heard the story - and suspect it would be well known if true or even likely. Any sources?

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:25 AM

I do not post this thread in order to cause any kind of political controversy nor is it because I have any preconceived ideas about rebels and rebellions. I would like just to know if the IRA leader in Belfast in 1920s named Roger McCorley was , in fact, the descendant of the Roddy McCorley being discussed in this thread ? I believe that Roger subsequently joined the Free State Army with a commission after the signing of the Anglo -Irish Treaty Agreement ? Can anyone verify or otherwise ?

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 07:33 PM

Have just read the whole of this thread.
Two comments:--Anent Roddys father having been transported to Van Demians Land, surely the time scale precludes this.
Erland was/is a good Norse name in Shetland. Easy to see how it would become McErlan/d on its journey down the west coast of Scotland and over to Ulster.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 02:52 PM

Greetings Jerome! Thomas Archer seems to have gone by various forenames. I believe "Thomas" was his proper given name, but he is often referred to colloquially as "Tam" ( a Scots abbreviation of Thomas/Tom); "Tom" and even "Willie/Wullie". The latter name may have been simply a case of an outlaw using an alias. Alternatively, maybe his given name was "Thomas William Archer" from which all the others mentioned here could have been legitimately derived. In one song Ive heard he was described as "Dark Tam" a man of "medium height, but extremely powerful build, like a bull".

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: meself
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:01 AM

Hmmm - just caught GUEST,GUEST,Roy McLean's last post, from two years ago - not sure what he was on about - but then, checked my post on the Carrickfergus thread, and not sure what I was on about -

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Jerome Colburn
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:02 AM

Thanks, all, for the interesting posts. From this thread I first learned of the Archer gang. Roy's mention (on 7/16/2009) of Tommy Archer being called "Wullie" in a song raises the question of a relationship to Willie Archer (The Banks of the Bann). Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,GUEST, Roy McLean
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

To "meself",
What an old fraud you are!! I just saw your post on the "Carrickfergus" thread. You really got stuck into that "Aisling" fella!(last June) Talk about "smouldering wrath"! Still he deserved it. Better get out off here before Marty gives me a bollicking! Keep well.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:22 PM

I agree both McCorley and McErlane seem to be of Irish Gaelic(IG) origin. However McErlean(Roddy's mum's name)as opposed to McErlane, seems to be of Scots Gaelic(SG)origin to me. The "lean" ending is a give away. The fact is, as I'm sure you realise, its difficult to be dogmatic about these things because if you go back far enough they were probably all Irish as we are told that it was ancient Irish tribes who first brought the Gaelic language with them to Scotland. In this way all Gaelic can be seen to have basically Irish origins.

Leaving aside the question of nationality, religious affiliation is a different matter again. Religion depends on various factors, such as time scale, ie. did emmigration occur before or after the "Scottish Reformation". For example if we take the name Maginess if the name holder's ancestors emmigrated from Scotland before the 1500s he will probably be catholic, but if they arrived after the 1500s he will probably be protestant. The other main factors were the Penal Laws and intermarriage(according to some researchers, this was much more common that many people today believe, especially between catholics and presbyterians - Oh for the good old times!!). The point I'm trying to make is that surnames in Ulster, whether they they be of IG,SG or whatever orgin are not always a sound indication of religion. I personally know of many protestants with names like: Murphy, O'Boyle, O'Neil, Kelly, Ennis, McIlwaine, Donnan, Feeney, Healey, Conor, Quinn etc, etc.(particularly on the Shankill Road and North Down). Moreover, I know of many catholics with names like: Adams, Hume, Bell, White, Smith, Hastings, Jones, Fitt, Carson, Stephens, Williams, Johnson etc. Its all a bit of a minefield. I find it fascinating. This name "crossover" thing is so common that I feel that we do not really understand the real nature of it. Its true origins are probably buried under centuries of bigotry and propaganda. (to "meself", surely there are more pleasant and fulfilling ways to test your testosterone than going to the quack!)

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,big tim
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM

According to the two standard works on the subject, 'The Surnames of Ireland' by Edward MacLysaght (1957), and 'The Surnames of Scotland' by Robert F. Black (1946), both McCorley and McErlane are surnames of Irish Gaelic origin.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: meself
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:44 PM

Better have the doc check your testosterone levels ... !

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:01 PM

Re my post above(5 up)which touches on the subject of catholic burials in protestant church graveyards, I have just received further information from one of the clergymen who I initially consulted and who told me he thought it highly unusual. This gentleman tells me that after our conversation he did some further digging and has since found out certain things which have caused him to revise his opinion. It appears that while it is extremely unusual in living memory, catholics were, in fact, sometimes buried in prod churchyards in earlier times. He gives examples of three catholic burials from the 1700s in Lambeg Church of Ireland(COI)(can drums waken the dead?). It seems that this was as a result of the Penal Laws which curtailed the construction of religious buildings/sites for denominations other than the established church, ie. COI. This led to catholics along with dissenters sometimes, if not often, being buried in COI churh yards as they were the only ones available at the time. It seems that this practice continued up to the beginning of the 1800s when the Penal Laws started to be relaxed. It must be remembered that Roddy was not buried in Duneane COI until around 1860, so maybe his burial in a COI churchyard at this relatively late date could still be seen as an indication of prod religion.

As a matter of interest, many years ago I remember asking my own grandfather, a presbyterian, about family burials. He told me that his own grandfather had told him that long ago the family members were all buried in a corner of a particular field on the family farm rather than in any churchyard. There was no marker, but everybody knew where the corner was. He told me the name they gave to this burial corner. It was an ancient sounding word, but sadly I can not remember it now. Can anybody help? He said that this was the common practice among presbyterians at the time.

---

The above post about catholic burials in prod churchyards is from me. Sorry, I forgot to add my name. Regards ROY McLEAN (you see "meself", my wrath is postively mouldering now, not even smouldering. What a pussy I've become!)

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM

"Then tell me William Wilson, tell me why you hurry so
Has Tammy Archer called you and the other boys to go
A riding roun the country from the Port up to Coleraine
Searching for your comrades whom they say have died in vain

By the waning a the moon, by the waning a the moon
We ride wi Tammy Archer by the waning a the moon

We search not for our comrades whose names we mind wi pride
Who fell outside ould Antrim town or by Bann water side
Our quest is for fair booty to maintain our noble cause
An crush the hands would slave us under foreign foeman's laws

We ride out on the darkest night, no moonbeams light our way
No bridle glint or flickered flint our presence doth betray
And when dawn streaks the eastern sky at peeping o the day
By mountain glen or wooded height ye'll find us far away

Death to all informers, those men who're bought and sold
Base cattle in the market place, so shameful to behold
Ye know we hai no pity, our hand we will not stay
Wi your liver and your inards inards the price ye'll surely pay"

... with respect to the folk at Bonnie Before, Carrickfergus

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:09 PM

An error has been pointed out to me concerning my most recent post above which I should like to correct. The last line of point two should of course have started with the words, "passed to Roddy's DA'S brother" rather than "passed to Roddy's brother". Sorry for any confusion caused and also for the various spelling mistakes. I wrote in great hurry, in the middle of the night, in 35 degree heat minus air conditioning while the marimba dance music drifted up from the bar below. However, its not the Marimba, but another song that enters my mind -
               
      "Then tell me Willie Wilson, tell me why you hurry so
       Has Tommy Archer called you and the other boys to go
       A riding round the country from the Port up to Coleraine
       A searching not for gold, but blood for those lay slain"

No prizes for guessing the tune!

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:01 AM

Thanks for that, GUESTRoy

I'm heading off for a fortnight well away from the Internet and will look forward to a good look at your post when I get back.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: meself
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 12:37 AM

Thanks for that post; it is very interesting, indeed.

(As for "wrath" - well, you must admit you did seem a little, um, "touchy" in your earlier response to Martin Ryan. My own wrath is on smoulder at the moment, thank you.)

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 08:32 PM

Regarding whether Roddy McCorley was a protestant or not I would like to offer the following. I have relatives from the same area Roddy McCorley was from and over the years I have heard many stories about the 98 rebellion and characters involved in it. Here are some of the things I have heard and also discovered about Roddy and people he associated with. I will include personal "thoughts" where appropriate.

[1] He was a protestant rebel from Duneane. His mum was documented as being a presbyterian (parish record). However, the McCorley Family seem to have had a burial plot in the local Church of Ireland (COI)churchyard. This was later destroyed by vandals, but records of it still exist and I believe someone even has photos of various McCorley headstones. One of the last burials in the plot was a certain Rodger McCorley who was buried in 1760. This would appear to be Roddy's grandfather. Apparently the name "Rodger" ran in the McCorley family. Someone in the thread above mentions that catholics often used to be buried in prod church yards. I have consulted clergymen from both sides of the divide over this and they all regard it as being extremely unusual. The general consensus is that the catholic clergy in particular would have done their best to prevent it. Moreover, the idea that catholics could have held a family plot in a prod church yard was though to be basically impossible.

[2] Roddy's da is a rather vague figure. He owned a mill, but he disappeared from the scene very suddenly. Some people say he was transported for sheep stealing or because of his political beliefs. However, no record of his trial or subsequent transportation has ever been found. Interestingly, amongst local people there is a persistant rumour that all was not well in Roddy's family and that is was divided by a bitter dispute over land or property or something. Some people have linked Roddy's da's sudden disappearance to this dispute and indeed even Roddy's own later betrayal and capture. Anyway, after the departure of his da the mill passed to his da's brother, ie. Roddy's uncle. His mum subsequently remarried a presbyterian guy from Randalstown, a United Irishman(UI) called Orr. It was this man who inducted Roddy into the UIs.
THOUGHT: If Roddy's da owned a mill, he was most unlikely to have been a catholic because the Penal Laws of the time would not have allowed it. Some people have attempted to explain this by saying his da was not a mill owner , but merely a mill worker. However, if this were the case the mill could not have "passed" to Roddy's brother as it would not have been Roddy's da's to pass, as it were.

[3] After the rebellion, a number of rebels formed themselves into various bands rather than surrender, eg. The Dickson Crew, The Steele Gang, etc. One of the best known of these bands was the "Tommy Archer Gang". An ancester of mine was a member of this gang and another member of it was a certain Roddy McCorley. The gang leader, Tommy Archer was an interesting person who has been much missrepresented, not least by the Roddy McCorley society of West Belfast who describe him as a member of the catholic Defenders, but sure wasn't Mother Theressa a good prod, God bless her! Archer was a protestant shoemaker from Ballymena. He was also a member of the local militia. However, he appears to have become greatly impressed by the cause of the United Irishmen and he eventually rallied to their banner. By all accounts, he fought very bravely during the rebellion particularly at Antrim. I have heard two good songs about him. One in Donaghadee & Belfast and the other in Carrickfergus. Bizarrely, in one he is referred to as "Wullie" Archer. Don't think the Dubliners or Wolfetones will be recording either of them, though! Anyway, Archer and his boys became outlaws in order to survive, take revenge on certain individuals and gain money to further their cause. Yes, there may have been some private pocket lining, but certainly in Archer's own case he seems to have been a true "patriot" and revolutionary who genuinely believed in his cause and was not interested in personal wealth. The Archer Gang, of which Roddy was a member, were described by the authorities as being a group of around 8-10 "desperados", all presbyterians. Tommy Archer himself was later tried and executed in Ballymena. Tommy and Roddy had together both succeeded in escaping from government forces prior to their executions.

[4] It is worth noting that in the immediate aftermath of the rebellion quite a lot of the prod rebels had started to feel a certain resentment towards catholics. This was because of the following reasons: Firstly, they felt that the catholics had failed to really support them in the Ulster Rebellion; Secondly, the relatively few catholics (mainly Defenders)who had risen had either refused to fight, as at Ballinahinch or run away when things got tough, as at Antrim; Thirdly, catholics had acquired a growing reputation as informers. The catholic church had condemned the rebellion in no uncertain terms and ordinary catholics were being exhorted by their clergymen on a daily basis to betray the vile rebels; Lastly, the protestants were becoming increasingly turned off by the increasingly vicious sectarian flavour of "Catholic Irish Nationalism" as shown by the wholesale slaughter of prods by the Boys of Wexford and others. These feelings were a large part of what drove the prod descendents of the 98 rebels into the ranks of the Orange Order later on in the 1800s. THOUGHT: Anyway, back to the Archer Gang, I think the question must be asked - How likely is it that Roddy would have been welcomed into a closely knit gang of protestant exrebels if he had been a catholic, given the emotions of the time? Maybe he would have been. I am not sure.      

[5] After his capture Roddy is supposed to have said words to the effect, "If I had stayed among my own presbyterian folk I would never have been betrayed." Similar sentiments are attributed to him in the two poems, however, interestingly the word "own" has been ommitted in them. THOUGHT: If he did say the words, "my own presbyterian folk", this would be a strong indication that he considered himself a presbyterian.

{6} After Roddy's execution one of his buddies in the Archer Gang, a certain Sam Neill, is rumoured to have said perhaps in a foretaste of the great Jimmy Hendrix: "Twas a cruel shame what they did to Roddy, but ye can tell ma folk, didna worry there aint no hangman gonna put a tow rope around me." Interestingly, Neill was never caught. Some say he made it to America or France. Others that he lived out his days peacefully in another part of Ireland under an assumed name. I wish I knew.

[7] Regarding the Father Devlin business at Roddy's execution. I can find no mention of his presence at Roddy's execution either in newspapers or government reports. I feel his sudden appearance may have been an attempt by the catholic church or individual catholic romantics to "write themselves into" what was essentially in Ulster a "protestant rebellion". The catholic church, despite having forcefully condemned the rebellion, was very keen to exploit the rising tide of nationalist feeling that was growing among ordinary people. It did this by grossly exaggerating the role of catholic clergymen in the rebellion. Also, the asthetic, romantic catholic poets of the day would have felt much more "sexy" about themselves if they could have claimed to be part of 98. "Lets face it, its the sexiest show in town. All those lovely green jackets with gold trim. Why leave it to a lot of dour prods. Never mind that they did the fighting and dying."

[8]Of course, if Toome was as catholic then as it is today then there may not have been any prod clergy around and any self respecting catholic clergyman would probably have felt himself honour bound to attend to a dying fellow christian.

[9] Another point is that certain sections of the government would probably have been quite keen on portraying rebels as "mere catholics" in the hope that it would diminish them in the public eye. The prod rebellion had been a big shock to them. They had just lost America to the Scots-Irish and now they were about to lose Ireland or at least Ulster to them as well. They would rather pretend that it never happened. This was undoubtedly the reason behind the extension of the amnesty to most prod rebels after 98.

[10] Regarding the name "Roddy". This can be seen as a more informal version of Roderick, Roger or even Rodney. It can also be seen as an anglisation of the Gaelic name Ruaidhri particularly in Ireland or Scotland. Some people (Big Tim above)have also claimed it to be an informal version of Rory from Gaelic Ruairi. However, while it seems that names like Roddy, Rory, Roy, etc. share the same root in Gaelic of "red" something or other, it seems to me that Roddy(Ruaidhri) and Rory(Ruairi) are two distinct names. I only know of one Irish catholic called Roddy and that is Roddy Doyle, but I know quite a few Irish protestant Roddys. You would probably find that most catholic Roddys are named after Roddy McCorley rather than being called Roddy as a diminutive or informal rendering of Rory. I don't know any Rorys who are referred to as Roddy whatever religion they are. Roddy is much more common in Scotland than in Ireland. I think in relation to Roddy McCorley, the case for seeing the Roddy part of his name as standing for Rory(usually a catholic indicator in Ulster)is very weak, especially when he himself was officially named in government records as Rodger and that relatives of his were named Rodger on their tombstones.      

[11] I am well aware that most of the above is in the realm of folklore and hearsay and as such will be of little consolation to a man like Big Tim who craves hard facts. However, I have good news for Tim. Surely all this business about whether Roddy was a prod or not could be sorted by a quick look into the local church records under births, deaths and marriages. The catholic records do not go back very far, early 1800s if you are lucky, but the prod ones should go back much further. It should be very easy to work out what Roddy and his family's religous affiliation was. I would do it myself, but I happen to be far,far away across the foam at the moment.

Regards ( to Martin Ryan: I am looking into the Carrickfergus thing. More later. To "meself": How's your wrath?)

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM

The guys I learned all of these from, Scottish celtic supporters, used more or less the same tune, maybe they did it to annoy protestants.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:30 PM

Can't say I see much resemblance between the tunes of Roddy and The Sash . As far as I know, the latter derived from "The Hat my Father Wore" the tune of which which in turn seems to derive from one of several songs called "Irish Molly". There's a long discussion of it around here somewhere...

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

Glad it was established, more than once above, that Roddy McCorley antedates Sean South. A similar tune is also used for ' The Sash my father wore' and also the Scottish Breakaway. The latter is cerainly later , as it mentions the second Liz, but what about the sash?

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 05:23 PM

Click here for the main thread on Carrickfergus

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: meself
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM

Now we'll see if a soft answer really does turneth away wrath ...

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 02:57 PM

Hi Roy

Nice to meet you! I've no intention of trying to have you deleted - on the contrary, my comment was made in the hope that you WOULD supply a name and not fall foul of the "no anonymous postings in threads" rule around here. This is pretty strictly applied in threads with political content and less strictly in those that stick to music. That's all.

So - back to the music. I have a particular interest in the Carrickfergus/Do bhí bean uasail song, the earliest evidence for which seems to be a 19C. broadsheet song called The Young Sick Lover. This has verses in English alternating with verses in (phonetically rendered) Irish. The verses are not translations of each other.

If you know of any evidence for the Carrickfergus set on its own, before, say, mid 19C. - I'd be very interested in seeing it. Equally, I'd love to see a set in Irish pre-dating the Young Sick Lover date. I've seen no trace of it. I have absolutely no idea which, if either, came first - and I doubt if anyone else does.

Like most singers, I also have met the sort of ignorant comments you encountered. My usual reaction is to wait for an opportunity to slip in a song that shifts their perspective on a familiar one.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Roy McLean
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Hi Martin Ryan,

So you're going to have me deleted, are you? I guess what I said makes you feel uncomfortable or maybe you just like deleting people.

My primary motive here is not to stir up political controversy, as you put it, but just a long overdue attempt to put the record straight and to warn people of a particularly pernicious trend which is being carefully nutured by various people with the aim of denigrating other people. Also, I have never liked cultural bodysnatchers! I might add that I dont like people who issue veiled threats to others either.

The Carrickfergus thing relates to the fact that some people claim the song to be a Munster one. As I recall, this is based on the fact that someone (i think it may have been one of the Clancy brothers)heard it being sung in Gaelic by a street musician near Cork in the 1950s. My point is that quite a few songs have been written in English and then translated/interpreted into Gaelic and vice versa. Consequently, the language of performance does not necessarily indicate the origin of the song.

However, more annoying was the reaction of one Ulster Catholic acquaintance of mine who said he didnt believe the song was from the "North of Ireland" (to use a Steinbeckism) because "it was too beautiful" to have been written by anyone there. I assume he includes his fellow co-religionists (40%approx of the NI population) among that band of incapable "anyones"!

For your information my name is ROY McLEAN. I trust this will help you in your noble, community spirited efforts to get me deleted.

PS. Please, no more advice about giving names and "sticking to things"

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

I have always loved this song, and sung it many times. This has been a really interesting read. The discussion reminds me of a point an old friend tried to make with me years ago. We were locked in one of those endless arguments about "folk" vs. "commercial" songs. He argued that, particularly with respect to Irish or other traditional music, you can see it from one of two perspectives.

First, the words of songs as they reflect history and belief, whether composed or handed down over time. There are passions connected to this that transcend melody or form. I studied folk music as a sort of vernacular literature in two college classes I truly enjoyed. I see and understand why following the evolution of a song such as Roddy McCorley occupies many of us.   

The other study is the musical one - certain songs become popular because they were friendly to the ear, lyrical, memorable or done by someone who helped make them so. In a few cases, you can have it both ways.

Sometimes, a song such as Roddy McCorley becomes widely known simply because of a popular recording by, in this case, The Kingston Trio in the 1960's. The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem gave The Risin' of the Moon and The Auld Orange Flute wide exposure, along with a lot of other Irish songs not widely known outside Ireland prior to their time.      

I am often fascinated by the history of a song, the tradition from which it comes and so on. Selfishly, though, most performers need songs that make a connection with the listener. In that quest, the musical side usually wins out. Audiences, especially now, don't have the patience to endure a history lesson. They want to be entertained.
I guess that is why "traditional" folk music is, and has been, mostly done in more intimate venues and not for larger commercial audiences.
I don't think that's at all a bad thing.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:34 AM

Hi GUEST

Carrickfergus translated into Gaelic? Love to know where you came across that - not in Henry anyway. There is a macaronic song which contains verses in Irish and in English - but it's definitely NOT a translation in either direction.

Regards

p.s. If you want to stir up political controversy here - better attach a name to GUEST and stick to it. Otherwise you're likely to be deleted.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM

Around Toome in Ulster Roddy McCorley was always known as a protestant rebel and member of the United Irishmen. His mother was recorded as being a Presbyterian. The fact that her name was gaelic is neither here nor there. Many, if not most Ulster Presbyterians have gaelic names, though they are usually of Scots gaelic origin, eg. Craig, Neil, McLean, etc. In fact his mother's name, McErlean, is almost certainly Scots rather than Irish in origin. the details about his da are not so clear.

One thing you have to watch out for over this sort of topic in Ireland is that there is a definite move by some people of a catholic background to claim certain people and songs which they admire for their own rather than acknowledge than they originated in the "protestant" community. This movement has grown in strength in recent years. Songs affected are, "Sam Hall", "Henry Joy", "Roddy McCorley", "Love is pleasing", "Peggy Gordon", "Carrickfergus",(yes, it may have been translated into Irish gaelic, but this doesnt mean it was from Munster)and many others. The origins of Irish folk songs can be checked in Henry's authorative, "Songs of the People". When a good prod song can not be "nicked" then they sing it badly as a sort of joke, eg. "The ould orange flute" as performed by the Dubliners. This is all part of a demonization process. An attempt at cultural emasculation to prepare the ground for the widespread dismissal of a whole group of people. Its biggest exponents in recent years in Ireland have been the PIRA, but we all know were it was born - Nuremberg! Watch out!

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

There is a McErlean grave in Ballyscullion, CO. Antrim, not far from Toome. And members of the family still live there.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Jamieson
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:12 PM

I am told I am a great great (add as many as you like) nephew of Roddy McCorley. This from my uncle James Jamieson's geneological research. He was admittedly prone to hyperbole at times. His mother was Mary Flynn.

Does anyone know the geneology of Roddy's siblings?

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM

Years ago there was a Irish woman, named Maura I believe, who worked at the front desk at the Griswold Inn in Essex,Ct.USA. Whenever anyone sang Roddy McCorley, she'd come into the bar and tell the story of her Great Great ... ? Grandfather or Uncle or someone being the hangman who hung him. I'm suprised I don't recall all the details of the story I'v certainly heard it enough times.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,McErlean
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:16 PM

does anybody know what roddy mccorley's mothers first name was? it would be really really helpful if someone could help me

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: emjay
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:42 PM

Off the subject of Roddy McCorley, but since MacPherson has also been mentioned in this thread, with some suggestion that he was not a fiddler, I will. I remember seeing in the National Geographic several years ago, a picture of a broken fiddle supposedly MacPherson's. The caption said it was in a (or the) MacPherson museum in Scotland. I don't remember the date but if I come across it in my collection of Geographics, I'll post that information.
Martie

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:27 PM

My mistake, a disadvantage of posting from memory.

It was first published in 1902: in the Carberry (Anna Isabella Johnston MacManus) poetry collection 'The Four Winds of Eirinn'.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Gulliver
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

Big Tim wrote: Roddy was written in 1904. Sean South was born in 1928.

But the author, Ethna Carberry, died in 1902.

I think it was already mentioned here that she wrote the song at the time of the '98 commemoration, which would have been 1898.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:35 AM

Jim, I am actually the author of 'One Green Hill', which is why Martin is chuckling. 'Lightweight' - never! Thanks for the compliment tho - all copies of the book have now gone.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:29 AM

I lived in Toomebridge for nearly 6 years as a boy. The story we heard was that Roddy's mother was a McErlean from Bellaghy and that Roddy was betrayed by a cousin, over a feud about some land. WE never heard anything about his father although he may or may not have ended up in Van Diemens Land. We heard he was a bit of a highwayman and was in trouble with the authrities before and after the 98 insurrection. WE always assumed he was a non-catholic, not that it matters. Most of the rebels were in fact Presbyterians with a good numbers of catholics, the story is that many of the catholics ran away home when the fighting got rough around Randalstown and Antrim. I have been to the memorial many times. I will be there again this September and may get to visit Duneane.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

BigTim

OK, OK!
Click here for the earlier thread!

Regards

p.s. Re the last post:   He, he!

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM

'One Green Hill', by John McLaughlin, published by B.T.P. Publications Ltd in 2003, is an interesting book which delves into the background of Roddy McCorley and a number of other Irish songs.
The songs tend to be a little lightweight, but the author seems to have done his work well and it's very readable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

Right enough Martin, but has anyone read it!

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM

BigTim

Some kind JoeClone has put a link to that thread at the top of this one!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

Much of this has already been discussed on a previous thread. This should really be read, rather than repeating everthing on this thread.

Just search under Roddy McCorley and the thread will come up, it's called 'Roddy McCorley: date of origin'. Perhaps someone better at tech than me could provide a link?

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM

From: GUEST,mj near toomebridge
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:27 AM

hi again i am here at present with a man well versed in his history and veery well versed in roddys history
roddy was a catholic his father was caught skinning a sheep belonging to colonel bruce a bellaghy land lord and was transported to van diamens land where he died some years later
roddys mother married a republican orrs a blacksmith by trade and was engaged in making pikes for 1798 ( i am going to be shown one of these pikes yes he has them)
and this was how roddy became involved with the battle
rumour had it among the country men that {mc erlain was angry with roddy and helped in his capture} because the young miss mc erlane was pregnant to roddy remember this was only a rumour and cant be proven

From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM

Yes, Henry Joy was a Protestant, as were most of the United Irishmen in the north.

McCorley and {McErlane (Roddy's mother's maiden name)} are Irish names, not Scottish.


    Assuming that mj(Roddy's betrayer) and Big Tim(Roddy's mothers maiden name) are both correct, is it possible that Roddy was betrayed by a kinsman.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: trevek
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:55 AM

which one, ard? Roddy or sean?

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

Right Tim, I was almost there at its birth.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

Roddy was written in 1904. Sean South was born in 1928.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Reiver 2
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

I forgot to add that the song as we sang it bore no relation or resemblance to MacPherson's Lament (Rant or Farewell). It would appear that the only thing they have in common is that the subject of both songs died by hanging.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Reiver 2
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

"Roddy McCorley" was a favorite song of The Reivers and is a very stirring tune. I've not tried to research it, and can only relate what we heard about it from a variety of sources. We understood that Roddy was involved in the '98 Rising, that he was a protestant and that many of that persuasion were involved, especially in Antrim, in that Rising. I always understood that "Sean South of Garryowen" was sung to the tune of "Roddy McCorley" and not the other way around. Does anyone know for sure which came first? We also were informed that Roddy was not hanged from a gallows, as some in this thread suggest, but that the method used was to fasten a rope to the bridge, secure it around his neck and push him off. In the song he's a very heroic figure, and the information in the thread to the contrary, while interesting and probably true, sort of spoils the effect. Another of many "heroes" who turn out to have had feet of clay?

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

The important point is Catholics/Nationalists in the north of Ireland couldn`t care less about his religion, in fact I have never heard it mentioned.
McCracken, Tone, Samuel Orr and all of the other freedom fighters were held in such high esteem by the Nationalists that even to-day GAA teams and Nationalists clubs bear the names of those Protestant heroes.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM

Yes, Henry Joy was a Protestant, as were most of the United Irishmen in the north.

McCorley and McErlane (Roddy's mother's maiden name) are Irish names, not Scottish. In Toome, I was assured that McCorley is a VERY Catholic name. Obviously this does not guarantee that R was a Catholic but it seems more probably.

The older Roddy ballad says Roddy was a Defender, an almost exclusively Catholic organisation. Very few Catholics rebelled in the north but Defenders did take part in the Battle of Antrim.

Subject: RE: Origins: facts behind 'Roddy McCorley'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

Catholic Schmatholic, Gaelic Schmaelic, Scottish, umm, Schottishe. Irish and Planter were mixed, whether officially or unofficially, in many families.