BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

Slag: I think I know what you mean about Jimmy Carter - that he didn't stand up to Iran at the time. But I would say G.W Bush is one of the weakest US presidents ever. He does exactly what he is told by big business - the eminence grise(s) behind the White House. Rice and Cheney are by far the smarter and stronger characters (but, not, note nice caharcters by any means), but Bush makes the perfect mouthpiece - not too clever for his own good, a real 'yes' man.
By the way, if Iran had taken over the USA we'd all be rooting for the USA, and for it to have back its liberty. It's a good job they didn't succeed. But I suppose once they had secured their own country the way they wanted it, they left well alone. Having said that, the White House is like an elephant - never forgets - and it's a sore loser. So it bankrolled Saddam by billions of dollars on condition he punished Iran for them. Didn't matter what kind of undemocratic monster he was at home. He could pose as a champion of Islam all he wanted, but the White House knew that at heart he was a good old Mesopotamian Imperialist that spoke the same langauge as they.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:00 PM

Re Iran kicking America out (the 400 and some odd days of captivity): They sure knew how to time their move. Jimmie Carter, the weakest and worst American president of the twentieth century and perhaps of all time. If they had REALLY known how useless Carter was they might have taken over the US!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:31 PM

To: Slag,

Hi Slag, sorry I forgot to add my name to my reply to your post the last time. I couldn't agree with you more about disillusionment with many of the political parties. We Europeans jokingly refer to the US as the two-party country (where choice is limited) but we're not that much better, if at all. What we need are new political parties. In the USA it seems you have a choice between: killing Iraqis is wrong but killing unborn children is OK (Democrats) and killing unborn children is wrong but killing Iraqis is fine - just more Injuns really (Republicans). I say they're both wrong - Kill 'em all! No, only joking! Seriously, we need a political party that values human life full stop, and realises that any 'progress' built over mounds of dead corpses is no progress. I still reckon terrorism can be reduced to a pinpoint or practically eliminated by creating a just and fair world, allowing space for different populations to live their own way. The key to the problem goes way beyond national security, the army, military budgets, oil etc., What passes for government these days is in reality little more than political fronts for big business. Look at the ridiculous amounts that are spent on presidential campaigns! How can the little fellow get a look in that way? The big corporations see this money as money well spent. Once their favourite is elected he will ensure barriers to trade are removed in favour of the big corporations, the ones who really drive policy.
An interesting website you could check out in this regard is www.yesmen.org

By the way, I also agree with you about freedom. Logically, freedom cannot be limitless, or else, for instance I would have the freedom to kill anyone I wished. The counterbalance of freedom is responsibility (usually mentioned in much smaller print these days) to your society.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:24 PM

As all things they are not always what they seem. A bit more subtle and complex.

Just a short note to urge you to read today's NY TImes Magazine article re: the Hezbollah/Syrian/Lebanese/Israel confrontation---its origins and what it probably is really all about---and it is more Syrian power over Lebanon and Shite supremace of that sad place than what terrible events on the ground seem to indicate


Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

"Almost a million black Africans have been displaced from
Darfur through the violence of government-backed thugs who are animated by the same combination of Arabic and Islamic zealotry that made Sudan such a congenial host country for Usama bin Laden and a number of his fellow mujahadeen in the years following their overthrow, with US backing, of the Soviet puppet regime in Afghanistan. The quest to expand the realm of Arabic supremacy into the Aboriginal territory of black Africans is going forward in Sudan through a concerted campaign involving the mass slaughter of civilians, systemic gang rapes, and the looting and burning of whole villages."

Tell us more about the friendliness of Islam and its various factions, hugo.

That quote is from

http://people.uleth.ca/~hall/genocide.htm

However, I suppose the garbage bastards doing that stuff in Africa are displaced Muslims, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:11 PM

"The Un resolution will not work because it does not deal with the reality of Israel's invasion of Lebanon and in the background is the blatent oppression of the Palestinians .That is the key issue that could lead to a resolution of the conflicts in the Middle East.
hugo"

Off yer meds aGAIN?

Tell me, hugo, are the Israelis responsible for this?

Genocide in Africa and the So-Called War on Terror: The Mounting Crisis in the Darfur region of Sudan in Light of the Failure of Intervention in Rwanda

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

It was the rest of Southeast Asia would fall to communism, not the whole world, and that pretty much happened, with most disasterous results in Cambodia.

First of all the theory was also applied to Central and South America and the Caribbean not just S.E Asia. Secondly it was used to justify interventionist policies.

As for it happening - well the fact is there are two countries in S.E. Asia that would regard themselves as communist. They are Laos and Vietnam. How come you are not intervening in these two countries to save Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia etc.etc. from communism or do you no longer believe in the theory?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:02 PM

If Soviet Communism had the religious ferver of the Islamo-Fascists and if they hadn't run up against a hardballer like Regean we might still be playing dominos. The Lenin-Marx doctrine had the same imperative by the same means as Islam, i.e. conquer (convert) all and the ends justify the means.

Re history: On an individual basis each one of us is the sum total of our remembered experiences. History teaches us everything if we will only allow it. Instead, foliedave, some of us want to overlay it with our idealism. I remember a news story where some animal lovers decided to interrupt a bull fight in Spain. They entered the arena and sat down in protest. They were El Toro's freind so they knew the bull would not hurt them. WRONG! They did not believe their history. They paid the price. You need to study history a little closer, especially the history of warfare, as distasteful as that maybe.

As for not being a pork-eater? Explain that to them. Ever hear of guilt by association? Did you watch the fair trial of Mr. Berg just befor he was beheaded? Good luck. Or, hey! You are probably a clever fellow. Maybe you could convert now and get on the winning side (believe me, lines HAVE been drawn). I'm sure they will welcome you. They can probably find you some small jobs to do, maybe even send you on a mission. Did you ever get in a fight at school? Did you just stand there and get the shit beat out of you? Or did you fight back, regardless of the provocation? If you were a good little boy you probably just took it. Yeah, the bully may have "got in trouble" but you still got clobbered nonetheless. Having said all that I cannot really judge you. If your convictions say that you cannot condone violence then one of the protected you must be, or be a martyr. Christ asked His followers at one point if they were armed, that a time would come when they must fight but not He. He came on a mission of sacrifice. So be it. By the by, folkiedave, whoever made you a target, your government, radical Islam or Adam and Eve doesn't matter. You are still a target.

Black Tom, we have gone out to meet our enemies. We need to defeat them THERE, not HERE. Support your troops!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:43 PM

Hey, two million dead Cambodians should not bother him- After all, the papers here did not give us daily pictures, so it was ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:29 PM

Was the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip "blatent oppression of the Palestinians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:11 AM

Folkdavie, you overstate your case. It was the rest of Southeast Asia would fall to communism, not the whole world, and that pretty much happened, with most disasterous results in Cambodia.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:18 AM

But of course Hugo, there are too many that do not want the violence to stop - how can they sell munitions in a 'Time of Peace'?

Hezbollah has already said that they will continue to attack Israeli Military who are engaging their fighters (not retreating I suppose!), and are on 'Lebanese Land' - I suppose that includes the disputed lands...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:31 AM

The Un resolution will not work because it does not deal with the reality of Israel's invasion of Lebanon and in the background is the blatent oppression of the Palestinians .That is the key issue that could lead to a resolution of the conflicts in the Middle East.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:10 AM

they ARE coming after you when they get the chance.

"The only thing that history teaches is that history teaches nothing".

Remember the domino theory? If Vietnam fell to the communists then the rest of the world would follow.

Well so far, wrong.

They are after those who invade and bomb their country and you would do the same. The fact that my government is in it almost as deep as yours I find absolutely appalling. That's what makes me a target.

As for eating pork, I am a vegetarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Black Tom
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:52 AM

Hezbollah has won the hearts and minds of the American press, as have all other Islamic terrorists. The news media reports their actions in the most politically correct maner possible. Why is it that they have no problem with the term, "The Religous Right", but can't seem to use the term, "Islamic Terrorist"? Common sence tells you that not all followers of Islam are terrorists.I have known a number of muslims who are more than happy to live and let live. The terrorist, on the other hand, will not stop until there is only one religion left in the world. If these wack jobs are not destroyed,we will either be converted, or killed. Then, there will be no politicly correctness. Women will be "put in their place". Gays will be killed. Not for anything they do, but just for who they are. There will be no freedom of speach, the press, or any of the other freedoms we take for granted. This is our future if we fail to win. I've heard many people say that war is never the answer, but when someone is trying to kill you, you either fight, or you die.
Personally, I'm going to sharpen up my Fairbain, grease it with lard, and wait for the Holy War to come to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:08 AM

If the new UN resoultion becomes reality, Hezbollah will loose their stranglehod on Lebanon at least for a while.

China Backs Up Lebanon Resolution

Beijing, Aug 12 (Prensa Latina) China on Saturday called on all parties to respect the ceasefire in the Middle East, adopted by the United Nations Security Council on Friday.

The official spokesperson for the Chinese Foreign Ministry welcomed the document, titled Resolution 1701, adding that he expects its content "be implemented by all parties in a tangible way, to resume peace and stability in the region".

Support for Lebanon and condemnation of Israel s attacks has spread to other Asian countries.

In Malaysia, more than 20,000 students staged peaceful protests at six universities to condemn Tel Aviv s atrocities in Lebanon and Palestine, the news agency BERMANA reported.

The students also raised funds to send humanitarian aid to victims of Israel s aggressions, while the secretary of the Aman Palestin Bhd bank, Awang Suffian Awang, urged Malaysians to make donations to palliate the hardship and suffering of the Lebanese and the Palestinian peoples.

Meanwhile, Indonesia donated more than one million dollars to the victims of the bloody conflict in Palestine and is preparing another one-million-dollar package to assist the victims of Israel s attacks on Lebanon.

Indonesia also decided to send a 900-strong military contingent to join the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon, while neighboring Malaysia and Brunei made a similar decision.

The 15,000-strong multinational peacekeeping force will be deployed in southern Lebanon in compliance with Resolution 1701 of the UN Security Council, approved on Friday by all 15 member countries of that international body.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:31 PM

Guest! Yes! Governments do get away with murder: all the time, ours, theirs, all of them. The relation between government and the people is always a struggle for power and control. And I'll grant you too, that our inconsistent and heavy handed foreign policies have been a main contributor to the political environment and the discontent that has shaped a lot of what goes on today. Anecdotally I had a friend, among several friends who spent three seasons at least on a dig in Israel, tel El Hesi. They had much better relations with the Arab community than the Israeli community and especially Israeli officialdom. They were all quite sympathetic to the Arabs' plight. As a country, were not very good evangelists when it comes to promoting democracy. I don't have THE answer to the situation. It's very complex and I'm a rather simple person. I believe in fair play and the Golden Rule. My government reads that as "Here's a sucker we can easily manipulate. We've got his game book and we can use it against him" (they're wrong). The enemies of this state see my statement as weakness and lack of will. They are wrong.

That genius, Lewis Carroll covered the English cum USA's approach to foreign affairs in his poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter". It really says it all. How are we going to "win the hearts and minds" with that approach?

On our own political scene every election is rigged in some way by both parties and the one that out cheats the other usually wins. I'm really tired of a NO CHOICE choice. Who runs? Millionaires, multimillionaires. Millionaires back by millionaires and by OPM, suckers all. And who is it we are electing? People rich enough and powerful enough to hide all their wrong doing. Why doesn't you neighbor whom you know run for office? Why won't you vote for him or her? "Well, since they aren't a big success they aren't capabable of helping to run the country." Or they have made some mistakes along the way and don't want to go through the public scrutinty of the propaganda machine, the press. I'd much rather vote for someone who can say "Yeah, I've screwed up a few times in my life. I inhaled.
And I've learned from my mistakes. I have some ideas I believe to be pretty good for the country and I'd like to see you get on board with me and see if we can get this mess turned around."

I believe wholeheartedly upon the ideals this nation was founded upon. Founded? Foundation? Fundamentalism? Yep. The Declaration of Independence is one of the greatest and nobelest documents that mankind has ever produced. Let's not subvert it or it's intent. Our constitution with it's clear common sense Bill of Rights, written in the common English of the common people and understandable by all honest people (not just slick lawyers and double-tongued politicos)with a modicum of intelligence is a triumph for freedom. It recognizes that the power of the government lies in the people. It derives it's power from those whom it governs. And yet the jackals we keep electing work tirelessly trying to come up with ways to minimizes and limit that power. They came up with Income Tax (it will never be more than 1% of your income, trust us!). They keep trying to come up with a way to disarm us because, as Chairman Mao stated so eloquently, "All political power flows from the end of a gun barrel." or words to that effect. You may be anti-gun, and that's your choice, but if they ever get the citizen's means of defense, we are all goners. In a totalitarian state the police have little to fear from the public but the public has much to fear from the police. There's the knock on the door at midnight and the "disappeared ones". In a free state the police have it harder because the free citizenry is "on it's honor"and unfortunately not all are honorable. And that is still, by far, the most of us. We obey the laws. The few irresponsible ones, whom we call "criminals" are the only one's who should fear the police (idealy). Freedom isn't free. Government is a necessary evil that needs to be guarded and watched constantly and we as a people have really fallen down on the job. We are in danger because we've grown complacent. We want the Government to do it all for us. That's not American!

As long as I have a breeze up and I'm preaching let me add one more thing. Freedom is not the right or the ability to do anything you want. That is a pernicious idea born of selfishnes and it's name is "license", as in licentous, a blatant disregard for the rules or the norms. Freedom is the ability to do the RIGHT thing, to do one's duty to his neighbor and countryman and to protect our valuable freedoms and rights, to be responsible.

I don't know the answer to all our specific problems but I know the correct answer lies in the heart of those great documents and in the great freedom loving hearts of all honest Americans who believe the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:47 PM

Re: Slag

" I gotta tell ya folkiedave, they ARE coming after you when they get the chance. Are you going to lay down and die for them? Have you ever eaten pork? You're a goner. Lines have been drawn and if you choose to ignore them, that's at your own peril. Have mistakes been made? Of course. Do they have legitimate issues? I know they do. But you have to know that their main concern is not addressing those issues in a civilized manner. They are bent upon the destruction of Israel and the USA and that, my friend, includes you".

Slag: I wouldn't like to live under the Taliban etc., either. I like my freedoms, such as they are (and our so-called democratic governments are using the war on 'terror' to make as many inroads into these as they can). But look at it another way: for well over the last 50 years the West has been interfering with the middle east and Islamic way of life. Who installed the Shah of Iran, who turned into sucha corrupt little despot he ended up being overthrown by the Iranian revolution? The Iranians were so pissed off at the US interference thye ended up closing the US embassy and kicking the Americans out (and the White House is a sore loser). Who armed and helped Saddam terrorise his own people? He was allowed to get away literally with murder until he got too big for his boots and invaded Kuwait. It didn't matter then that he tortured and killed thousands of his own people, that he gassed the Kurds etc., When they rose up against him after the 1st Gulf War, they were promised help by the US, but then hung out to dry (by Bush snr, it runs in the family). It was the same the world over - Chile (Pinochet) Panama (where the US even had the nerve to install a CIA agent - Noriega - as president) and so on in a long, long list. None of these puppet leaders were likeable men, and none had any respect for democratic norms. It didn't matter a damn as long as they followed orders from the White House. Now, they find US and British troops on their soil, laying waste to their country and telling them - at gunpoint - that they must live according to a different model of society, one th West happens to value, but in a modified form for export, where big business is the real government (actually, come to think of it, western 'democracy' is no different, just more sugar-coated). If I were an Arab I would probably conclude that my country would be far better off without these heavily-armed philanthrophists and do my best to see them to the door. Trouble is, the West doesn't just want Muslims to fit in with our particular way of life while they are living in the west, we expect them to live according to our way of life even when they happen to be living in their own countries.

(By the way, I know that the Soviet Union had an appalling record of interfering in democracies too, and had a terrible human rights record, and still does as Russia in Chechnya; as does China re.Tianamen Sqaure and Tibet , etc., etc., )

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:02 AM

No one is winning. Everyone is losing...Israel, US, Palestinians, Hezbollah.....

It's crazy.


Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM

It may be a a bit late for that now - but if he hadn't found Allah while being tortured in a Mideastern Jail, maybe....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:32 AM

So if we just stop all this dancing and music everything will be alright?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:24 AM

"this madness all started when a young Muslim student in the USA went to a dance"

That's when the main recent thrust of fundamentalist nutters got rolling...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:34 AM

"The leaflets listed some 100 guerrillas who it said had been killed by Israeli troops
[snip]
Israeli reports said more than 300 guerrillas had been killed."


I guess they only had IDs for 1/3 of the bodies....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:51 AM

Foolestroupe, You must realize this all started about 5000 years ago when Abraham sent Ishmael and his Mom packing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:18 AM

You do realise, don't you, that this madness all started when a young Muslim student in the USA went to a dance, and watched partially unclothed young men & women sinfully cavorting themselves to music...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:10 AM

Such is the nature of guerilla warfare folkiedave. It is difficult trying to fight a brave group of assassins who hide behind women and children, murder indiscriminately in any direction, wear no uniform. I gotta tell ya folkiedave, they ARE coming after you when they get the chance. Are you going to lay down and die for them? Have you ever eaten pork? You're a goner. Lines have been drawn and if you choose to ignore them, that's at your own peril. Have mistakes been made? Of course. Do they have legitimate issues? I know they do. But you have to know that their main concern is not addressing those issues in a civilized manner. They are bent upon the destruction of Israel and the USA and that, my friend, includes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:17 AM

Hmmmm....

The leaflets listed some 100 guerrillas who it said had been killed by Israeli troops
[snip]
Hezbollah so far has said that only 58 of its guerrillas died in clashes since Israel began its onslaught on Lebanon on July 12
[snip]
Israeli reports said more than 300 guerrillas had been killed.


"Numbers have a funny way of being changed in wars. Depends on who's doing the reporting I guess. "

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:23 PM

"Hezbollah so far has said that only 58 of its guerrillas died"

The press also reported that 58 people died at Cana. Turns out there were 28 dead at Cana. Numbers have a funny way of being changed in wars. Depends on who's doing the reporting I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

http://www.cjp.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=191974

Israeli leaflets list dead Hezbollah fighters

Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa)
08/11/2006


Beirut (dpa) - Israeli jets on Friday dropped leaflets over parts of the Lebanese capital Beirut listing the names of 100 Hezbollah guerrillas who it claimed had been killed in fighting with Israeli troops.

The leaflets fell on areas loyal to the militant Hezbollah movement, including the southern suburbs and areas where Shiite refugees from the south of the country are staying.

"(Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan) Nasrallah is killing your children for nothing," the leaflets read.

Most of the leaflets fell on parks across the capital, where refugees are staying.

"This is part of the psychological war the enemy is using on us. We tell them we will not bow," said a Hezbollah follower.

The leaflets listed some 100 guerrillas who it said had been killed by Israeli troops in southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah so far has said that only 58 of its guerrillas died in clashes since Israel began its onslaught on Lebanon on July 12 in response to a cross-border raid by the Shiite militia.

Israeli reports said more than 300 guerrillas had been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:33 AM

Vietnam/USA = Iraq/USA
Not Israel - Hizbollah

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 03:45 AM

So let me get this straight.

One of the world's fiercest and well-equipped armies with total control of the air and able to bomb at will - which they are virtually doing - with an unlimited supply of arms and other resources, thousands of troops and tanks in the field, are being held back by a number of guerillas and so-called "terrorists". I say so-called because the Israeli army is terrorising a population just as much and frankly I don't see the difference.

Bit like Vietnam really. Now - who "won" that one?

I happen to think that no-one did, but one thing for certain, the Americans (read Israelis)lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:38 AM

"Is Hezbollah Winning?"

In short, no!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:07 AM

Do you have the coordinates for that position?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0608100186aug10,1,5460126.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

Lebanon's Druze leader says militants' agenda will lead to disaster

By Liz Sly
Tribune foreign correspondent
Published August 10, 2006

MUKHTARA, Lebanon -- Ensconced in his ancestral castle, perched high in the mountains above Beirut, Druze leader Walid Jumblatt is articulating some boldly unorthodox views on the conflict engulfing his country.

As a fierce critic of Hezbollah and its role in provoking a war with Israel, Jumblatt has emerged as a lone voice of dissent amid the clamor of pro-Hezbollah cheerleading that has gripped much of Lebanon and turned Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah into a national hero.

"If I were opportunistic, I would tell you now, `Long live Nasrallah.' I am not going to tell you that," he says in an interview at the 300-year-old castle. "I know my position is not popular, in the Arab world or in Lebanon. But I will stick to my position."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

Nick thanks for the rational viewpoint. I think there is no 'winning' side yet. I think the leadership of Hezbollah, and Hamas, and the other myriad terror org's out there is very cynical and very based within their own culture. They must 'keep up appearances' at ALL COST. Therefore, they will make up whatever motivations seem most opportune to the time. They must claim victory no matter what. No matter how many Lebanese they get killed in the process.

As far as the sympathy vote goes for, it counts for little. I think Israel discounted it entirely. The terrorists have attacked schools and killed Israeli children for generations now. The world says wot a pity. This time the world can say 'wot a pity' for some Lebanese by-catch (collateral damage). What the Lebanese will remember is that the Israelis have acted this way before, are likely to act this way again, it really hurts, and maybe the Hezbollah should be less venturous with people who do not want to be shaheeds.

I think the Israelis are fed up with the terrorists, fed up with the Lebanese, and fed up with the UN. I don't blame them, but I fear they are at a 'us against the world' point which will do them no good even if it is true. The terror/suicide/homicide/fascists are also in their own little world. They will try to go on unless stopped on their own side of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: AggieD
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

I would like to ask a few of questions at this point:

1) If Israel is getting it's arms/rockets or whatever from the US, where does Hezbollah get their's from? Or are they all home-made in someones garage?

2)How do the press know that Hezbollah are using underground tunnels to run back to like rats, leaving the innocents above ground to be targeted by Israeli rockets at the points from where Hezbollah launch their attacks?

3)If Hezbollah are a genuine army of fighters that are backed by other Arab/Muslim countries, why don't we see them ever depicted as such, as we see the Israeli army? Does that make them terrorists by default as thier fighting is always clandestine?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM

GUEST Nick makes by far the most convincing argument and prognosis. As some South African (white) politician once said to an American politician, re. the racial problems in the then Rhodesia, "we should have done with our indigenous peoples as you did with yours....".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:12 AM

GUEST,

EASTERN Catholics have NO conncetion to the Vatican...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

Just thought I'd add my tuppence. Someone above said the US won't be a superpower forever. That's certainly true, as history teaches. the Roman empire, the British empire, they've all disappeared in time. But I think we can safely say that it won't happen any time soon re. the USA (though China is gettin stronger by the day, and would have no qulams about taking on the USA if it thought it could - you'll see that some day soon it'll annex Taiwan and none of the 'democracy' exporting neo-cons in the White House will pip up a single word about it). The real problem for Israel is that it is still heavily dependent on US sponsorship, right down to the bombs it was delivered there the other week. US interest in the region is largely dictated by the presence of oil (there are lots of other places struggling under dictatorship, but not a US marine is to be found anywhere in Zimbabwe, for example). Once the oil finishes, the US will drop the region like a hot potato, and Israel will find itself rather isolated amongst extremely hostile Arab neighbours (especially if China vetos US action, as they are already making rumbling noises about in relation to Iran). It makes very good sense for Israel to strike some sort of deal with its Arab neighbours. Now I know they have not been the most accomodating, and indeed they invaded Isarel the day after the state was declared, but Israel has not been doing itself any favours either by ignoring UN resolutions, engaging in land grabs and so on. Its incursions into Lebanon and the West Bank were planned weeks before the kidnapping of their soldiers. Indeed, these very same soldiers they set out to rescue - the supposed pretext for their invasion of Lebanon etc., - are unfortunately probably lying dead under some of the buildings Israeli bombs have flattened, dropped by their IDF colleagues. So you see, it was never about the kidnapped soldiers, but like the WMD it provided a good excuse for another agenda. If they had really intended to rescue them it would have made more sense to send in a highly trained commando platoon acting on good intelligence. Meanwhile, hundreds of Lebanese civilians who have no connection with Hezbollah, are lying dead because US-made Israeli dropped 'smart' bombs turned out not to be so smart after all. Does the kidnapping of a few soldiers Knesset doesn't really give a hoot about justify killing whole families, children, funeral mourners? You might say Hezbollah have been using the civilian population as shields. It's seems a clever argument and has done the rounds. But when the Israelis advised the civilians to flee, they then bombed them almost as soon as they tried to escape! The situation in Israel is more complicated - since every adult Israeli (man or woman) is also a member of the IDF, in a sense they are as legitimate a target as a Hezbollah fighter is to the Israelis, if there is a state of war. Moreover, I remember seeing photos in Newsweek back in 2004 showing the IDF using a palestinian teenager as a human shield, tying him onto their jeep. So, no moral high ground in that instance. G.Bush and Rice (will the real president please stand up?) have muttered angrily about Iran sponsoring Hezbollah and how Syria and Iran must respect Lebanese sovereignty, without the slightest hint of a sense of irony, as they sponsor Israel and say nothing about its complete disregard for Lebanese soveriegnty.
The most logical explantion I have seen for Israel's invasion of southern Lebanon is to gain control of the Litani river, an important and strategic source of fresh water which Israel feels it badly needs. Indeed, it was interesting to note Knesset state that they will push on into Lebanon 'as far as the Litani river' on the news tonight.
But as someone said on this forum already - there will be no winners as such in this war. Even if Israel succeeds in its aims of grabbing southern Lebanon as far as the Litani river, the resentment caused will ensure Hizbollah etc., will have an endless stream of recruits, and so Israel will explain (after the fact, as usual) that it now needs to invade north of the Litani river to protect itself, and so on all the way up to the North Pole and off the planet. The problem is that, especially since George Bush came to power, the loudest voices on all sides - Iranian, Syrian, Israeli, US - have been the neo-con warmongers with their unshakeable belief in military might being the cure for all the world's ills. Unfortunately, the only military solution to terrorism - whether Hizbollah or Israeli - is genocide. You can't convince people to like and trust you and live peacefully by killing them and destroying everything they have, so the only other way is to wipe them all out so you don't have to live with their resentment. If the parties involved keep going the way they are, they may well end up dragging us all into World War Three. Maybe then they'll be happy with themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:49 PM

Doug:

You're twisting words again.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:35 PM

Hezbolla would love to invade Israel and wipe it out. No doubt.
Could they do it? Unlikely.

Israel does not want to invade Lebanon. Are they doing it? Yes for the second time.

Who is the biggest liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:15 PM

Amos: "Perceived?" Hezbollah is a "perceived" enemy of Israel? What part of Hezbollah's belief that Israel should be destroyed do you not understand?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM

Of course they're winning. No surprise, there. Israel has nothing to look forward to but endless rocket attacks and new Intifada-s for the forseeable future. Their enemies have time and numbers on their side(s), and Israel has... the US. Which won't be a superpower forever. They should've colonised a more laid back country, I guess. Nauru, maybe.

And not that any of us will be here to see it, but in one hundred years, I seriously doubt that there will be a state called "Israel" on the map. Inevitable, really. See, oh, the Kingdom of Jerusalem on the map these days? Or... the Principalitry of Antioch? Rhodesia, even? No? Why not?

OldGuy: Hey, nice to see you're quoting openly racist blogs like The Jawa Report. Makes you easier to ignore. So, since you're apparently incapable of articulating your views without a copy-and-paste, why don't you fuck off back to your little Jawa hole? That's, like, all those fuckers do. Copy-paste, nod, froth, etc.

Oh, and robomatic: You're still showing that idiotic "Arab land" map around? Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan, Armenia, etc.? Do you even know what an Arab is, dude? I mean... and I'm not even going to go after the "oh it's just a little postage stamp country" thing as depicted in the map, because I really couldn't care less about your opinions on the matter, and I have no desire to "convert" you... But about half of your map isn't "Arab." And it's not like this is obscure information, or difficult to find out. Look it up. Even Wikipedia, or some shit. I mean, you're online right now. How hard is it? Do your homework, or your opinion doesn't mean anything.

Well, it doesn't mean much, anyways. But do try harder, anyways.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 08:26 AM

Good for him. So what. The Vatican wasn't too sympathetic to the Jews during the 2nd World War.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:45 AM

A (Eastern) Catholic Churcj Leader has stated that he finds that people are becoming more sympathetic to Hezbollah as the carnage continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

about three all, with the prospect of extra time.

a couple of yellow cards issued, but both sides looking forward to the re-match.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:50 AM

There were many Jews living in "Palestine" before 1948 on land legally purchased by Jews. Many Arabs were delighted to sell "worthless sand" to the stupid Jews. Of course those "stupid" Jews made the land bloom and produce. They made way for their brethern fleeing from the anti-Semantism of Europe. The Prospect of a homeland was a welcome idea to those who had faced genocide and survived. Israel, a tiny, and I mean TINY country in the vast Middle East. The original state was less than it's current 8019 square miles. That's smaller than Rhode Island. That's smaller than San Bernardino County, CA by more than half. It's smaller than Inyo Co. CA. It is smaller than Kern Co. CA where I was born and raised. And this was THEIR homeland for over a thousand years excepting the Babylonian Captivity. It was the Roman Empire who forcibly and bloodily removed them and changed the name of the place to Palestine, their term for Phonecia. There are no Phonecians, no Palestinians. The hallmark of the Philistine was lack of circumcision, acrobysta in the Greek. Arabs are a circumcised people (peritoma). There are no Palestinians. So here are all these Arabic and Muslim states surrounding tiny Israel and they can't accomodate their brothers? They can't take them in with their HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of square miles? They can't help? They don't want to help. They want the status quo so that it will foment unrest and give them a flimsy pretext to destroy Israel, the Jewish State.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:12 AM

Q, you never did answer my question regarding how much of Lebanon you think Israel would 'absorb'. Or were you just writing hyperbolically?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:09 AM

Q, whom do you think you are kidding? Firstly, I do not mis-state history, but you certainly ignore it.
There could have been a Palestinean in 1948 before the war. There could have been a Palestinean state any time between 1948 and 1967, had Jordan and Egypt assisted Palestineans instead of de-facto annexing the West Bank and Gaza. So tell me if Arabs would not form a Palestinean country, why should Israel have done so, back then?
If tiny Israel could take in millions of Jews from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Ethiopia and Europe into an area about the size of New Jersey, it seems to me that Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other Arab countries, covering an area probably a hundred fold larger, could have accommodated the then Palestinean population (which I think was significantly less than 2 million in 1948, but I'll give you that number.)
Jack-the Sailor, that is what I was obliquely stating above, and I think you really know it.