Trad. players show signs of boredom ?

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 04:30 AM

"The singer should sing it where they are best able, it's up to others >to adjust for accompaniment"

That's almost exactly the reason I sing in Eb and a half, so people DON'T accompany me! If I want to be accompanied it will be to the bar where they can buy me a pint.

LTS

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM

Godsake Declan Snail, I thought it was Americans who were supposed to be short changed by the ironymongers.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: martin ellison
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:19 PM

In my experience only:
Many people can play a tune (it's usually only two 8 bar phrases repeated). Fewer people can sing a song (often similar in structure tunewise but ALL those words!). Therefore singers are outnumbered. We're talking about sessions here and everybody wants to do their bit. It's fairly easy to learn 2 or 3 tunes a week but much more difficult to learn a song.
It's just a matter of percentages - more can play tunes (and want to at the drop of a hat) than can sing songs.
Of course if the singer/song is interesting/well performed etc. then we (yes, I'm amongst 'em) wouldn't be bored.
Now we need to address those who play tunes which make others look bored.
Martin

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 06:35 PM

Hi Greg
You know my voice, if a song's beyond my abilities I won't bother to learn it much less sing it.

It's a matter if you want accompaniment or not. Personnally when I sing I usually don't care, there are some/few exceptions. I don't ask for accompaniment but I don't frown on it either. So if I sing in a session anyone's welcome to play alog or not but I'll sing it in the key that I've learned it in because I put a lot of time, effort, energy & pratice in finding where I want to sing it & over time that key is where I'll start it (usually) & I'll stay with unless I'm off. If I need to stretch my vocal cords because I'm to low or to highThat's not doing me or the song any justice nor is it fair to the listener not to put it in the best place possible.

If you want accompaniment & you can ajust the songs' key & it fit for the musicians that's fine & that's a different matter, but the song should come first, always.

Barry

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 06:11 PM

To Barry Finn:

I appreciate what you are saying and I agree that there are circumstances where the range of the song is just within that of your voice, so the key you sing in on such occasions is critical. I have had the same experience you describe of starting too high on such a song.

However I remain a little sceptical in the particular case mentioned for the reason I gave originally. I would much rather people just came out and said from the outset that they would prefer others not to accompany them instead of resorting to such subterfuges.

To Jack Campin:

As it happens, I don't have a 415 recorder and given the price they are, even second hand, I doubt I will get one now. I don't think I would play it enough to justify the expenditure to myself let alone to a certain other in the house. It would be a neat way to subvert the intention behind the choice of key, though :-) Come to think of it, someone with a B/C box should be able to accompany OK and subvert the choice of key. Just play up and down the B row getting the E# (as Fnat) from the C row.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:32 PM

Well, poppagator and tootler, I use a partial capo quite a lot. I like the sound. It sounds a bit like DADGAD. If I put an ordinary capo at the second fret and the partial capo is then on the fourth, the "B" type chord (F shaped) is now at the 9th fret. But to get the "open chord" sound it means I need to fret the top E string (at C#) with my first finger, let the B string ring, and fret the G and D with my second and ring fingers. Then the A string is left to ring, and I need to get my thumb over the top to fret the fat string.

That leaves my wrist bent back and touching the heel. Shift it up a semitone and it's very very difficult.

Likewise I can more or less hit an F sharp, vocally (not necessarily prettily). But a G is really really hard work, and if it comes round every verse in a 6 verse song, I know by the end of the song that I have pounded my voice more than a bit.

If you don't believe me PM the Barden of England, or Growler, or Kev the Clogs, or Melodeonboy, or TDL, or Woodsie, or Kenneth Ingham, who see me do it regularly. Breton Cap saw it happen at Tenterden last weekend, likewise the rest of Travelling Folk in attendance (and Synbyn).

If I'm jamming in and am the instrumental accompaniment to a singer-guitarist, I'll usually use the mandolin and capo to play in D, G, or C or F, for preference.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:29 PM

>The singer should sing it where they are best able, it's up to others >to adjust for accompaniment

Spoken like a bodhran player

To some extent, that's true. However, if the singer actually
wants accompaniment, then it behooves him or her to pick
a realistic key for the instruments likely to be accompanying. I'd
maintain that if you can only sing a given song in some esoteric
key, it's quite likely that the song may be beyond your abilities.

Similarly, there's a question of choice of material--- pick a song
with a chorus, or one where other session musicians can enjoy
contributing, versus a ballad with 3,972 verses.

You don't generally hear fiddlers taking off in the key of G-flat,
even if they're one of the ones who can, or playing some tune that
nobody knows or can play along with, time after time. Why should
the singers do that, in what's supposed to be a social collaboration
of musicians?

Indeed, in Cajun sessions, the fiddler often tunes down a step
to accommodate the box players, who in Cajun tradition are most often
(though not always) playing one-row C boxes.

So--- I don't think that the 'rules' or 'etiquette' is really
all that different. If people are sitting around looking bored,
well then, they ARE bored and if you're the one who's boring them,
well then, try not to in future!

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:15 PM

Cross posted

Tooler, Greg B & Poppa, if the songs can be sung easily enough with a change up or down a half step or so fine but some songs, st least that I sing, are right where it's best for my voice & a half step change is to me at least for me can be a noticable change in it delivery & in it's diffculty in singing it. So to change it here, I'd perfere not to sing it instead. Just think on how many times a singer starts a song & has to change the key because they've started to high or to low. Give the singer the break when they want to sing it in the range that's best for them & sit it out if need be.

Barry

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:07 PM

Some songs for some singers are pitched in the exact range that's preferred for their voice. The range of the song may be extreme & just a half step up or down does make a difference to the voice when sung at it's lowest or highest range. The singer should sing it where they are best able, it's up to others to adjust for accompaniment & to know wither or not accompaniment is productive or not. Sometimes a slight nod of the head & a look in a musician's direction will give a hint.

Most sessions have their own personal dynamics & I've usually found that most are temperamental & have their own personalities & there own unwritten rules & guidelines & those sometimes changes depending who's there attending & whose leading it. But all should have respect for each other. We've been through session etiquette before. IMHO the best sessions have a mix of dancing, singing playing & maybe even a recitation here & there. If some musicians want to use a song as a break & go off to have a chat or a smoke so be it as long as they as discreet about it & the same for the singers respecting the musicians, seldom do I see any dancing or hear a recitation anymore I I hear less singing at sessions than I did 20-25 years ago, much less. Which I believe's the reason for the recent (past 20 yrs) singer's only sessions. The session I attend in Portsmouth (US) at the Press Room there always seems to be a internal twisting to find a balance between song & tune & depending on whose there it's never the same but form some reason it always finds it's level balance, sometimes being 40/60% or 60/40% but most times it's pretty close to 50/50% & most enjoy it that way without getting bored or impatient.

Barry

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:31 PM

Right on, Greg B and Tootler. It's difficult to give any credulity to the assertion that a half-step change in key would make a meaningful difference in one's ability to vocally "reach" the notes of a song.

Furthermore, the argument that F# is an easier key than G in which to play anything ~ on the guitar ~ is even harder to swallow.

The only way I'd even attempt to play my guitar in F# ~ especially to "jam" or play unfamiliar material in an improvisational situation ~ would be to capo at the second fret and play in E. (Key of F is tough enough; F#? Fuggeddabouttit!!!)

I'd prefer to play in the key of G, if I could only capo down a half-step, but I haven't yet perfected that technique...

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:26 PM

I suspect Tootler has an A=415 recorder in a drawer somewhere. I have.

I also have a C clarinet pitched at A=460, which is equally useful for playing in concert F#, and I'm learning the chromatic button accordion, where all keys are equal.

Maybe we should pay a visit to Richard's session sometime.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:14 PM

Richard Bridge has made it clear in several threads that he does not like tune sessions.

Given that I find the reason he gives for choosing F# in such circumstances a just teeny bit unconvincing.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:02 PM

...still trying to get my head 'round the idea that the
shift from F# to G is a 'vocal strain'

I mean, don't most people find that their range goes up and
down by more than a half step just depending on how many pints
or how much sleep they've had?

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM

I'm sure that Shores of Erin was a mistake for Shoals of Herring just there - but see here The Soft Shores of Erin

To the soft shores of Erin I escaped one autumn day,
to ask her patient rocks and ancient hills to soothe my tired dismay.
And while the sun that had warmed the heroes
lit my lone and winding way,
among her cities, towns and people I did stray....

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Declan
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 02:27 PM

PMB,

In case you don't understand TheSnails post above two of the three songs you mention as Irish above were written by Ewan McColl an Englishman of Scottish descent. I might be wrong but I don't know of a song called the Shores of Erin - McColl's song is called "The Shoals of Herring"

Shaneo,

It depends on lots of things - the song, the singer, the session the musicians etc. I know many musicians who love singing and are delighted when someone sings in a session. I know others who hate singing and are likely to pack up as soon as a song starts. Most are between these extremes. It can also depend on the quality of the singing, the style of song chosen and how frequently the singer sings during the session. Or it can simply be a matter that the musician is tired. I often yawn involuntarily during a session, particularly if its late at night. No insult is intended.

Having said that I've often seen singers behave really rudely while tunes are being played at sessions - talking loudly, shouting to their friends at the other side of the room. There are some singers (by no means all) who think that if there are no words to a tune its not worth any respect or being listened to. Some of these are the first to demand absolute silence for singers.

Usually a bit of give and take can sort these things out. If you would like the musicians to back you when you sing, let them know that. Many people still bear the scars (phyhsical and emotional) of daring to try to back a singer who wanted to sing unaccompanied.

If the musicians choose not to that is their choice. As others have said they may be doing you a favour.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 01:16 PM

For a bunch of musicians to accompany a singer and not mess things up is much harder than to do the same for other musical instruments. Much better - and much politer too - to take a rest and listen.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 01:11 PM

GUEST,PMB

Irish (Shores of Erin, Fields of Athenry, Dirty Old Town etc.)

Wonderful. That snippet relates to several current threads.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 12:50 PM

Yes.

I do several songs in F# - they suit (insofar as anything does) my voice and the guitar there, and I frequently get asked if I can't do them in "G" which is a vocal strain and results in a particular repeated chord getting missed a lot because the heel of the guitar is in the way.

But of course usually they wait until you are starting the song or the intro to it and go off hell for leather on the banjo in G (or D it it's a tenor) whatever key you are in.

I (mostly) don't care how loud they play so long as they play it with me and not against me. I'd rather they joined in, I'm not a prima donna (much)

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 12:41 PM

And it never happens the other way round ? Singers don't look bored when the diddly diddle is going on? The real problem is the mixed session, where everybody wants it to concentrate on their favourite type of music, and can't wait for any other type to finish. Most players I know would prefer a playing only session, without spoons and drums of all sorts by special invitation only. Most singers I know specialise into English and Scottish trad (hand on ear), Irish (Shores of Erin, Fields of Athenry, Dirty Old Town etc.), American folk, or blues (there are a couple of other sorts too). None of them can wait for any of the others to finish, though they are united in their dislike of the tunemakers. OK I'm exaggerating, but not a lot.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:51 AM

Even if the singer wants the accompaniment, it may not always be easy. If the song is something a bit unfamiliar, an accompanist will have to edge their way into it slowly until they get the hang of it and have an accompaniment idea that will work. Easy to do on a guitar, not so easy if your instrument can only take a dominant role (e.g. tin whistle, which will be out of tune if played quietly).

Staying in the background to add subtle touches of sound here and there is possible on an accordion, but the only players I've known who could do it well were *very* experienced.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:46 AM

Some of that has to do with stage manners. I was on stage with a fellow at an 'open mike'; he'd asked to 'back' me. Anyway, he decided it would be a good time to show off his facial expressions and some guitar work that had lotsa flash but didn't really complement the song I was singing. Long story short, when we finished the song I leaned over to him (and he to me). I whispered, "Get the fu#k off my stage or I'll punch your lites out." He left and we haven't spoken since. Been 35 years.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Bernard
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

Some people like to play tunes, but don't have the same enthusiasm for songs, just as others like to sing but don't have the same enthusiasm for playing tunes.

Some of us are equally at home with both... each to their own!

Perhaps 'bored' isn't the right word... they just aren't interested and want to get back to playing tunes. It's nothing to do with feeling it's 'beneath them'... it just doesn't float their boat.

'Accompaniment' is a skill, and melodic instrument players do not necessarily have that skill because they often don't need it. It is more normal for a guitarist to be comfortable as an accompanist, but there are exceptions.

It would be very boring if we all liked the same thing...

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

LOOK bored? There was a club (now defunct) in one of the pit villages of Yakkerland where, upon the start of a song, I have seen all the musicians get up and go into the next bar until they judged it was time for more music.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

Looking bored is OK it's when they decide to talk among themselves while the singer is trying to be heard. Particularly noticeable with five string banjo players when the singer isn't singing in the key that they have decided to play in all night long. "Oh, can't you sing it in D?"

Hoot

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:48 AM

The problem from where I am sat at sessions , is that so often , the singer does NOT want any accompaniment at all ! And IF they are singing unnaccompanied , that is perfectly reasonable !

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: stallion
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:46 AM

no

Subject: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:45 AM

I attend many sessions , there is usually a good mixture of traditional tunes and some folk songs.
The guitar players, who are normally singers anyway will back up the fiddle and banjo players or whatever instrument is doing the lead and will not show any sign of being bored[for want of a better word], But I have noticed on many occasions when the guitar player sings a song that the traditional instrument players, be it banjo, fiddle, accordion shows sings of agitation or bored or not really wanting to back up the singer, as if it's beneath them.
Has anybody noticed this ?