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What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?

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Richard Bridge 27 Jul 08 - 01:07 AM
Suffet 26 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM
Suffet 26 Jul 08 - 10:55 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 26 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM
Gene Burton 26 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 26 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM
Gene Burton 26 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Jul 08 - 09:02 AM
Azizi 26 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM
Barry Finn 26 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Jul 08 - 12:01 AM
M.Ted 25 Jul 08 - 10:46 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM
Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 08 - 07:27 PM
M.Ted 25 Jul 08 - 05:44 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM
Jack Blandiver 25 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM
Stringsinger 25 Jul 08 - 03:19 PM
Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM
Jack Blandiver 25 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 08 - 11:42 AM
mattkeen 25 Jul 08 - 11:03 AM
Barry Finn 25 Jul 08 - 11:02 AM
mattkeen 25 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM
Spleen Cringe 25 Jul 08 - 04:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jul 08 - 03:41 AM
M.Ted 25 Jul 08 - 12:06 AM
Barry Finn 24 Jul 08 - 11:53 PM
M.Ted 24 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM
Barry Finn 24 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 24 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM
Ebbie 24 Jul 08 - 09:15 PM
M.Ted 24 Jul 08 - 08:48 PM
Barry Finn 24 Jul 08 - 05:46 PM
Barry Finn 24 Jul 08 - 05:40 PM
Stringsinger 24 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM
Stringsinger 24 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM
Stringsinger 24 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM
Spleen Cringe 24 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Jul 08 - 05:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 24 Jul 08 - 05:05 AM
mattkeen 24 Jul 08 - 04:35 AM
M.Ted 24 Jul 08 - 12:50 AM
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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:07 AM

Ask your self Ron. Would JayZ perform a Snoop Dogg piece?

Would any emergent rapper re-perform a rap made popular by any pre-existing artist?

Surely the answer to that is "No" - isn't it?


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM

Greetings:

Hasn't the North American tradition contained many examples of lyrics set to non-melodic music? Among them are: Utah Phillips' long poetic recitation in the middle of Phoebe Snow. The rhythmic doggeral of cowboy poets. The jazz poets from the 1920s through the beatniks of the 1950s to Gil Scott-Heron's The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. The various and sundy talking blues. Peter LaFarge's The Ballad of Ira Hayes. Commercial country novelty songs such as Big Bad John, The Baron, and Convoy, to name just three well known examples. How are these any different from rap?

Just asking.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:55 PM


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

"In folk the community filters adn creates teh form of the song. In rap the community created the style adn each artist jealously guards his/her own form. "

Sorry Richard, for that sentence, I completely disagree.   The form is out there. There is a competition among rappers, but the same could be said about folk songs. There was a time when everyone had their "party piece" that was shared. That was part of a tradition. Same process, different times, different styles, same folk roots.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM

yeah, but 'PUNK' was post "Jack the Lad" provincial youth folk rock
with cheap Woolworth
electric guitars and amps


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

No. Folk is the new folk. With vocal melody.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM

i remember this same 'debate' here from at least 2 or 3 years ago.....


ask this question..




is FOLK the old RAP ?


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

what I can't understand is (Perry!)....

You always say it is future generations who decide what is entering the folk tradtion. Then immediately you say, But I bloody well know what folk music is, and you don't......

That question is irrelevant, incompetent and immaterial......counsel will aproach the bench.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM

It probably is folk- but it isn't folk music.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

""Oi, Don, hold your horses! I don't think Sedayne was in any way specifically refering to you. The last word for Sedayne is "troll" unless that's a specific reference to degree of hairiness...

So open your ears, and maybe your hearts and minds will follow. Or in the words of the great George Clinton free your mind and your ass will follow...""

In view of the fact that he used an out of context sentence from my post to introduce his diatribe against the folk community, who do YOU suppose he was referring to SPECIFICALLY?

In addition to that, what PRECISELY qualifies him to decide who IS entitled to express an opinion, and who is NOT?

You obviously know Sedayne in the real world. I do not, and I can only suggest that the best way to avoid being seen as a troll might be to stop acting like one, and show just a modicum of respect for others' rights to hold opinions.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Yes Ron, I said that - at least the first sentence. As to the second sentence, I disagree. In folk the community filters adn creates teh form of the song. In rap the community created the style adn each artist jealously guards his/her own form.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:02 AM

Richard - it is NOT a question of whether the song is good or not that makes it folk, it is the process in which a song is utilized and the community that creates it that makes it folk. Rap fits any definition that I've seen, including the sacred 1954 def.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM

Some people may be interested in reading this article:

Roots and Routes: The connections between dancehall and rap
By Hannah Appel   
http://www.jahworks.org/music/features/rap_dancehall.html


Here's a longish excerpt of that article:

"There are more similarities than not between dancehall and rap music. From shared musical and social histories going back to pre-Middle Passage Africa through today where rhythms and lyrics transmit at rapid speeds via modems, televisions, and the radio, the interconnectedness of these two musical forms is undeniable. DJs and rappers sample one another's material with reckless creativity, and look to one another for collaboration and inspiration...

Origins
Though many of the links between rap and dancehall are more abstract, like African retentions or similarities in language use, their most fundamental relationship is a perfectly tangible one: Jamaican immigrant Clive Campbell (a.k.a. DJ Kool Herc) brought his knowledge of Jamaica's budding dancehall tradition to the Bronx, and in 1974, he invented the break beat, widely understood to be the founding moment in hip-hop music. This celebrated moment, when hip-hop music (rap) was born out of Jamaican dancehall traditions, could use a little context of its own.

Though we have come to understand dancehall primarily as a contemporary form of Jamaican popular music in which DJs and singers perform and record over pre-recorded rhythms, dancehall as a culture and concept has a much longer history than that. Dancehall is also the space where dances are held and where sound systems and artists performed long before the technological innovations of the dancehall music we hear today. Moreover, like hip-hop, dancehall refers not only to a music and a space, but to a whole culture that encompasses music, language, dance, dress, and world views.

Hip-hop and Dancehall's Musical Similarities
In what other ways are dancehall and rap music related? For the sake of simplicity, let's divide these connections into two broad categories: musical links and socio-cultural links. Of course this is a gross over-simplification and it is impossible to truly separate music from the culture that generates it, but for purposes of introduction, we'll look at the formal musical traits that rap and dancehall share.

Certainly the innovations of Kool Herc provide the defining shared musical connection between rap and dancehall, but we have to look much farther back than Clive Campbell's immigration to see how these musical styles came to share so many of their formative elements. Rap and dancehall share two fundamental and definitively African elements: orality and rhythm, that date back to sub-Saharan Africa far before the forced migrations of slavery.

With their lyrical focus and ability to manipulate language for speed, affect, content, etc., rappers and DJs are the contemporary incarnations in a long line of orators, following the West African griot figure, or one who would spread news and stories in the community. Many writers and thinkers have also related the orality of dancehall and rap to the West African concept of "nommo," which understands the power of the word to be the power of life itself. To speak something or to "speak on" something is to generate it, or make it come into being. (See the work of Henry Louis Gates or Geneva Smitherman.)

The second definitively African element that both rap and dancehall share is their mutual reliance on rhythm. While the foundation of music that comes out of classical European traditions is with melody, music informed by classical African traditions relies almost solely on rhythmic creativity and layering. Rap and dancehall both share this reliance on rhythm, offering their lyrics over heavily laden bass tracks full of drum machine sound effects, handclaps, and even traditionally melodic instruments like the guitar or the horn used as rhythmic accompaniment. (Think of the "one drop" in reggae or the horn section in often sampled funk riffs.)

While it's important to acknowledge the African musical roots of these traditions, those roots are only one part of a much larger picture. That larger picture is a much more modern view in which rap and dancehall both rely extensively on newer technologies (microphones, turntables, amplification, keyboards, computers, etc.) and the extraction and recycling of old musical material into something new and exciting, a process known in hip-hop as sampling (and a habit so ingrained in dancehall it doesn't have a name.)

These changes took place in urban points in the African Diaspora [in]Kingston, New York, etc. The technological innovations of the second half of the twentieth century are really the musical heart of rap and dancehall. These technological advances include allowing the sampling of recorded material, and transporting an entire sound system not only across countries but also across oceans. Certainly the earlier innovations, like record players and microphones, were central to the musical forms, but it is the more recent developments in information technology that are speeding up the relationship between rap and dancehall music and the cultures out of which they come...

The music industries in both Jamaica and the U.S. are deeply affected by this informal economy in all kinds of ways, from bootlegs, to artists' individual connections to organized crime. (If you don't believe me, just listen closely to the musicÉ Which brings us to another shared lyrical tendency: boasting and posing as a "bad man" when you may or may not have done all the things you say you have. Although suffice it to say, many of the connections and claims are true.)

This has been a bare and decidedly incomplete introduction to some of the relationships and connections between rap and dancehall music and culture. More exploration can be done on topics like language, or the relationship of music to money and the market.

For examples of musical cross-breeding, it is fair to say that any dancehall album you listen to will have clear hip-hop influences, if not several guest rappers. Hip-hop albums similarly co-opt Jamaican traditions and artists for cameos. Beenie Man's recent spate of appearances with everyone from Lil' Kim (Straight from Yard) to Janet Jackson is one example, as is the Wu Tang Clan on the recent Capleton single "Judgement Morning."

eend of article

Here's the information presented on that website about the author of the article:

Hannah Appel is a San Francisco native who has spent the last two years in Kingston, Jamaica on a Fulbright grant, studying language and music. She has a B.A. in anthropology from Yale University, with a Caribbean studies focus. She makes a mean red peas soup and can "log on" and "zip it up" with the best of them.


-snip-

In my opinion, this entire well written article is well worth the read.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Yes M Ted, I know the 1954 definition, thank you, but one might also consider the parameters applied by Cecil Sharp one of which was that the song be anonymous.

Ron, the question of whether one likes or oneself adopts to play or sing a particular song may well depend on whether it is "good" (or, rather, to one's taste) or not, but that is not the same as whether it is "folk".

There is an argument that the 1954 definition needs to evolve, and of course as we have been told (although no-one has taken us to the detailed sequence) the Council, as well as changing its name, has amended the definition it uses. But that emphasises that in order to ask whether rap is the new folk one has to be able to define "folk". It's another reason why we need a definition for "folk" but it does not inform what that definition should be.

If one takes the 1954 definition, however, although the form of rap msic may have started in the community, and although that form may have evolved or been corrupted by crass commercialism, each individual song remains the same, and no or virtually no songs pass into general public performance by persons other than the original recording artis, and even when performed by ordinary peole (as distingushed from recording artists) the songs remain slavishly the same because the performer is seeking to emulate the original recording.

As to the concerns of the OP, I am advised that if you are kept awake by the late night rap music of the neighbours, a good loud burst (a couple of kilowatts should do it) of a recording traditional "top line only" music played on the crumhorn (which has a very penetrating sound perhaps nearly as carrying as kick drum or bass guitar) should make the point early the following morning. It was the remedy applied by Growler (or so he said) to those having "street" type music played loudly from recording at their barbecues in his street so he told me, but it might help that he is aout 6 foot 6 and burly with it.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:59 AM

Hi Frank, I did not try to seperate Rap from the Arfo-American culture, reread my statement "it was their art form from the beginning & the music only came after in started going commerical". I stopped writting poetry before the age of 20 when I also stopped rapping. Yes I could rap as well as any kid growing up in the inner city that came from a racialy mixed community. I was in that community that embraced Rap Browns speaches & they embraced his rapping style. there was no music in it. Take the musical back up away & you still have rap in it's original style (almost). The music was used to elevate it to commerical sucess & freedom. Funny how the musical side of this art was used to catapult it into the arena of capital mass productioan where a white boy could get there mouth & hands into the act, sound familar, think the blues

If you take a poem & set it to words it becomes a song or a poem set to music, take away the music & it is no longer a song unless you sing it, if you don't sing it goes back to being a poem & only a poem. So if a rapper isn't singing but he's being backed up by music you may say it's a song, I don't feel quite that strong about that but you take away the music & the rapping is rhyming & not singing then it's just a plain poem without all the glitter & attraction, it's no longer a song
I didn't say it wasn't a folk form or art. Have you people no standards at all to hold you what you'll except & expect as an art form or as a musical form. Go throw a bucket of paint on a canvas wall & come up with a good reason why it should be hung in a museum gallery.

Don, I do think that with my backgroud I qualify to comment on this thread I came out of the inner city very tough & very poor & at a time when rap was sowing it's seeds.

"I instinctively flinch at That's not music! type statements. Call it a reflex reaction. Nothing personal, Barry"

That's ok Spleen, next time try not to knee jerk.

Frank, when I 1st heard Gil Scott-Heron's "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" & the Last Poets material (without any musical backup I add) I didn't see them as a line going back to West Africa. I did see them as a new breed of protest in an art form. The blues & the prison work songs before them & the songs of slavery before that in not part of that same line. Those were songs to get through life & in no way were they even attempting a political statment that's a US bron thing not something that's a direct line to West Africa.
You may have to do a lot of footwork & fancy dancing to make those connections, at least by my standards.

Matt; "For myself< I just think your wrong"

Then we agree that we won't come to any sort of agreement soon, deal.

Richard & Ted
I'm fine with or with your 1954 guidelines though I wasn't asked my opinion back then I was really to young to contribute.
So I'll leve here with this the 1st time I was exposed to rap within it's own community there was no tradition (and no music I'll again add, it was all verbal back then, that was in the late 60's early 70's nearly 40 yrs ago.
Why don't we meet here in another 40 yrs & see where it's gone to & then we might have a better handle on how it has or hasn't entered into some sort of tradition.

G'day, G'nite
Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 12:01 AM

Of course the arguement is going to be made based on the last sentence - that rap is "composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged", but the true story is that is is music that was made by a community and taken over by popular music.

I just opened Pete Seeger's book "The Incompleat Folksinger" to get his take on the "folk process". He described a statment made by Dr. Duncan Emrich, formerly in charge of the Archive of American Folk Song. Emrich stated that there would soon be no more folk singers, and he based his statement on similar definitions.

But Pete wrote: "What Emrich didn't figure was that new traditions of folk music will emerge, even though the old ones will have faded. All definitions change with the centuries. What is called a "play" nowadays is far different from what was called a "play" in Shakespeare's time. The definition of folk songs and folk singers are liable to change also.

Folks will insist on it.

In the 1960's there was a flood of good new American songs written by young people who are singers and guitar pickedrs, who try out their new songs every week on small, informal audiences. They know right away how their song is being received, and if it needs amending.

Are these songs folk songs? They might fit one definition, but certainly would not fit another. The important thing is: are they good songs? Do they sing well? Is the poetry so good you can't get it out of your head? Are the words true, and do they need saying? Does the music move you?

It's worth pointing out obvious differences between these songs and what we usually call "pop" songs:
1) They're often concerned with controversial subjects.
2) They may be short or long, or ignore the Big Beat and other time-honored jukebox requirements.

On the other hand, I'd guess that most of these songwriters are very glad if their songs make the top forty and are sung by all kinds of singers, as long as the songs are not massacred in the process. Whether or not the songs have this brief flash of lucrative notoriety, some of them are picked up by some of the millions of guitar pickers in our country, and the best will be handed on to future generations.

Then some professor can come along and collect them. He can call 'em folk songs then, if he wants. The dust will not object."

That was published in 1972. I think Pete's definition fits the definition of "folk music" that includes the catagory of "rap". As far as I'm concerned, it says it all.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:46 PM

As one who practices the law, Richard, you know that one needs to begin with the statute.
Submitted for your consideration, the "official" definition of folk music laid out in 1954 by the International Folk Music Council:

Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives … The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community … The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.



You may proceed.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM

I only just caught up with this thread, and that because of comments on another thread about how bad it was here. I'm not usre it is taht bad here. Some overblown irrational raving, but equally some very insightful statements.

Ther are two questions in the thread title, and the second can logically only be answered after the first. Since the vast preponderance of 'catters do not seem to want to reach any understanding of the first any sustained rational attempt to answer the second is unlikely.

If one applies the 1954 definition and related views, there are going to be two problems attached to categorising "rap" as "folk". THe first is that many folk historians and academics seem to see anonymity as an essential for folk music or song, whereas the insistence of modern rap on commoditisation makes anonymity anathema.

Secondly, the pride of authorship means that although some standard phrases in rap get recycled, most modern rap is not recycled in retelling so there canbe no "folk process" in its descent. The form seems to arise from the community, but it is not folkloric.

I would also comment that I don't see "straghtedge" used in the UK music world in the sense that Wikipedia suggests.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 07:27 PM

Well said, M. Ted. With you 100% on this.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:44 PM

Chant and percussion are fundamental elements of African music, and are fundamental elements in the African diasporatic cultures of America,The Caribbean, South America, and Europe.

When some of you make statements to the effect that Rap/Hip-Hop, and by extension, all African music "is not music", you dismiss the validity of their musical culture because it doesn't conform to the aesthetics of your own musical culture.

This is serious, because it denies the validity and legitimacy of cultures that are not your own, and simply on the basis of the fact that they are not like your own.

None of you have presented any credible reasoning as to why chant should not be considered music, and no credible reasoning as to why very narrowly defined western style "folk melody" is necessary for something to be considered music. In fact, there is no credible justification for these ideas.

Basically, this position is chauvinistic, and without much trouble, can be interpreted as racist.

It may surprise you to know this--but generally when someone says "Rap isn't music", people of the relevant culture take is as a racist, chauvinistic dismissal--and tend to respond to it as such.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM

here is a Nick Toczek track that apparently is currently the subject of a legal wrangle with BabyShambles.

What a folksong!
http://www.myspace.com/nick_toczek


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM

Right on, Frank. Respect. I wonder - any Fela Kuti on you Tube? Let's have a look...

Oh yes! Oh yes! Check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4AA6EuZe-k

And more. Watch this - LOUD! Saw him at Glastonbury in 84 & I'm still dancing!

*

Yo, Spleen-o - reckon I need a haircut then? In this heat I'm inclined to agree. This one's just for you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq8eb74nIKc


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:19 PM

Barry, I respectfully disagree. You can't separate Rap from the rest of African-American
culture. It did not sprout up out of the ground but remains a form of expression that
emanates from a rhythmic and lyrical tradition. To try to confine it the way you suggest
is to deny its roots.

Rap is very much alive because it is changing (as folkmusic does) and I was privileged
to hear Naz do his rap about Fox News and I applaud this direction that Rap is taking.

Rap does have the quality of other forms of expression such as chain gang songs or
blues because it conveys history and storytelling that is not a part of the Anglo-American
experience. It is an eclectic expression that borrows from many sources and is not confined to a rigid form except when it is commercialized for a specific market.

African-Americans have been expressing views that are unique to their culture for years.
In a sense, Rap reminds me of the revolution in jazz through be-bop and the beginnings of rock and roll. Both forms were rejected by a proper white community who considered
them violent and "immoral". Eventually these musical expressions were accepted and understood by a larger audience. The same will happen with Rap.

I think that Fela Kouti has had an influence on Rap. His mode of expression was to take
current political events that occurred in his country, not unlike the Calypso tradition in
Trinidad. Rap has elements of this expression particularly when it takes a political bent.

Barry, I have sung be-bop at some gatherings and the songs of Hendricks,Lambert and Ross were accepted. In some circles, ears have opened to new ideas and not imprisoned
by labels or cliques of musical personalities. As we become exposed to more new and interesting ideas in music, the acceptance rate for innovation and change becomes more apparent.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Oi, Don, hold your horses! I don't think Sedayne was in any way specifically refering to you. The last word for Sedayne is "troll" unless that's a specific reference to degree of hairiness...

So open your ears, and maybe your hearts and minds will follow. Or in the words of the great George Clinton free your mind and your ass will follow...


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

""Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:28 AM

I guess I'd say that, in its best forms, it is arguably a variety of folk art.

They would definitely have to introduce a melody before I would use the word "music" in relation to it, and I would need a serious amount of time to consider whether "folk music" would ever apply. About fifty years or so.

It's not my style, but I have nothing against it either.

Don T.""

RESPONSE BELOW!


""Why is this subject under discussion anyway? What is with folkies that they have to turn on something they have no appreciation or understanding of? What qualifies them to pass any sort of judgement at all or even think they're worthy of holding an opinion in the first place? Ignorance writ large, folky fuckwits - you give folk a very bad name indeed. FYI - Hip-Hop is the antithesis of everything wrong with folk music - it's alive, vibrant, traditional, relevant, happening, universal, youthful, respectful, dynamic, creative, experimental; it is the ingenuity of humanity at its most ruthlessly inventive. Oh, and it actually knows what it's talking about, first hand.


I make possibly the mildest, and least offensive, comment on this thread, and the above is the response to that. Who is this poster, anyway, who believes he alone has a right to hold an opinion. I don't intend to defer to this ignorant, foul mouthed troll. I am as entitled as any here to express my opinion.

If you have a problem with that, Sedayne, maybe it's YOU that's on the wrong forum, as this one IS about the folk music YOU neither appreciate nor understand.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM

Best appreciate that music is music even if you hate it; I hate tripe & trotters but I would never say they weren't food or yet deny anyone the right to enjoy them as such. All music is a manifestation of creative human genius on an individual & collective level; it emerges out of absolute necessity. I don't think it's essential to like all music - I actually find Bob Dylan physically painful to listen to (but I love the unfaltering eclecticism of his radio show) and would personally ponder if much of the slick young trendy things that inhabit sessions these days are actually playing music, but that's just my personal bugbear, as undeserving of a thread as olddude's uncalled for bitching that started off this little lot.

Like art, not everything is music, but everything can be music if that's the way one chooses to define it. So open your ears, and maybe your hearts and minds will follow.

In the Ocean of World Music, genre folk is just a stagnant little puddle slowly drying up for the want of some rain; the drought is on, but the rest of us are out there, swimming in the cool blue depths. Come on in! The water's lovely!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uRnvMwD6jM


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

No Barry, I don't know you. I'm inferring slightly from your posts and using facetiousness as a rhetorical device... bad Spleen!

I instinctively flinch at That's not music! type statements. Call it a reflex reaction. Nothing personal, Barry.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:42 AM

Go Matt! Go Matt!


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:03 AM

He knows what you said Barry, and so do I .

For myself< I just think your wrong


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:02 AM

Spleen read again, I didn't say it is or is not folk I said it's not music. Therefore how can it be "Folk Music", maybe a folk art, but that's a strech too.

You don't know me well enough to know what I think of folk but I have tried to explain what I think is this type of poetry.

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Spleenoo! Spleenoo!

(PS you will only understand this if you know English footie chants or you are Spleen himself)


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:06 AM

I think Barry and Co are still hung up on this strange idea that "folk" is a type of music rather than a process.

I struggle with the idea that "folk" is the property of a narrow band of white, English-speaking people - probably strummers of acoustic guitars, probably disgustingly "mellow"... every culture has its folk music(s) and few of them sound how the "folkies" would like them to. Good, I say.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:41 AM

In England, a rant poet like Nic Toczek used to perform in folk clubs. And damn good he was too.

His words always seemed more urbane than most rappers you hear nowadays. In fact several of the punk bands used to have rant poets like Nic and Seething Wells as support acts.

I think it was a worthy contribution to the tradition of English folksong, and in time because it was there and people heard it - it will flower again. Its there in the common tongue.

I'm not sure about 'rap' as we know it. It seems very bound up with the new music technology. And that in a way provides the context, rather in the way that classical music provides its own context - neither of which 'feel' like folk to me.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 12:06 AM

Anything that you want to do is cool by me dude, but it don't make you right.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:53 PM

So I start recanting the "Wreck of the Hesperus", give it a little back beat, it has a rhyming structure, I could read it or recite it fast put some anger into it, then all I need is a back up band & I got a folk song?? Add a little dance to my moves make a vwith my fingers, I'm on the road to "Folkdom" glory hell-a-lu,lu.
Give me a break!!
For all that I could sing "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere" is that all it takes to make a folk song??
Again, give me a break!!
The Blacksmith's fair daughter gets a poem for dying at midnight but it's doesn't get "folk song status" even when it's backed up by a single acoustic gitar & gets her head blown off by a shotgun??
And these rapper guys do??
Go ahead now argue weither or not that's a folk song!!
So is BeBop/DoWop gonna be the next folk style?????
Some sing that at gatherings.

"Rap" Brown was a rapper, he practically brought on the genre. He was no singer, he was no musician, he was a political activist & civil rights advocate & a rapper. He got his nickname from rapping not as a folk singer.

To bad, "Rap" could've been showcased at Mystic along with Stan Hugill,
or at Newport when they presented the ex-cons doing prison work songs during the 'Vanguard' era. Seems a bit far from folk when you stand them along side other genres.

Take the instruments away from a folk song & it's still a song, take the instruments away from Rap & it's poetry, it's no longer a song!!!!


Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I've heard rappers on programs of folk music, and the crowd invariably loved them. Check the Dolomite and Oscar Brown, Jr. links above--It's the kind of thing that folkies love-I think that they'd have gone over like gangbusters with most folk audiences--In fact, it seems to me that Oscar Brown, Jr. used to perform in folk clubs--

At any rate, surprising for folks here, perhaps, the question of whether it is music or not, if it ever was a question, was resolved long ago, in it's favor.

As to whether the sounds that the birds make are music, ain't you never heard, "Let's all sing like the birdies sing"?


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM

So "Peter and the Wolf" is now folk music?

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

"I would no more book a rapper into a folk club than I would book an opera singer. I like opera, as it happens, and I can appreciate the muscle of a rap rendition but they ain't folk music. "

It just doesn't seem to sink in - folk music has more than one style and more than one audience. Folk music is also more than a style - it is a process that can be found in modern times.

A rapper would be nuts to accept a booking at a folk club, and a folk club would be nuts to booker a rapper - IF the audience is used to a certain brand of what THEY consider "FOLK MUSIC".


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:15 PM

"I will grant people the fact that Rap is a Folk Art, but so is graffiti.

"What Rap is not is Folk Music, and anyone who goes to a Folk Music Festival and has to listen to a rapper between Irish folk bands and bluegrass is being abused." pdq

That's my thought too. How can it be music if it can't be sung? Can you imagine sittng around the library table teaching your children the songs?

"I don't get quite why you think it isn't music--why isn't it music? or do we have to get down to "what is music?" M.Ted

My question: Is everything that has a beat music? Is the hooting of a grouse or a distant hammer tapping tacks into a board or a neighing herd of horses or the screaming of a crowd greeting a rock star music?

I would no more book a rapper into a folk club than I would book an opera singer. I like opera, as it happens, and I can appreciate the muscle of a rap rendition but they ain't folk music. Like pdq, I contend it is folk art, pure and simple.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:48 PM

It is fairly ridiculous to assert that a part of a musical piece is not music, Barry--I'd be curious to see if you could find you either musicologist or ethnomusicologist that would accept that--there is are many musical pieces that have spoke elements, and I don't recall ever having heard anyone say that "Peter and the Wolf" is not music.

Beyond that, there is a huge body of collected folk music that consists of percussion and chanting, and an awful lot of chanting alone.

Bomba and plena can be amazingly like rap, for instance, and, in fact, both of these traditions existed in the New York communities where rap/hip-hop originated--and both have roots West African musical traditions, such as the griot traditions that are often mentioned in connection with the genesis of rap.


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:46 PM

Was "Rap" Brown a musician or a singer??
He certinally could "Rap"!

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:40 PM

That's not the point Frank. Rap is the now poetry of the getto, of the streets, of the poor inner city with a strong beat & a strong rhyming structure & a fast flow & with a musical back up behind it that fits well with the emotion. They aren't singing, they really aren't singing to the back up musicals, that back up just reinforces the original beat of the poetry. Back in the late 60's & 70's you wouldn't have heard even the performers claim this as a music. I remember people dancing to it but it was the back up they were dancing to not the poet.

Rap is more a mastering & mixing of a rhythm & rhyme sceme. Take away the back up music & you still have rap, it was very common in the poor inner cities sections & no one toted a band around to do it, there was no need for a band unless you wanted to market it but that wasn't how it started. It was a shamefull thing back then if a white boy out rapped a blackm, it was their art form from the beginning & the music only came after in started going commerical. 'It only became international because it sold & was capitolized on otherwise it would've been happy saying in the inner city & possibly dying.

BTW, Rap doesn't come close to Prison Work songs, no connection at all unless it's just because the skin color of the singers. That's like saying shanties are related to jump rope rhymes, exercising the leg muscles

Barry


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Rap is international. Much folkmusic (songs from Appalachia and Blues) are violent,
and speaking about terrible things. A lot of rap you don't hear because the radio only
plays the commercial kind, (the kind that sells to white kids). There is political rap which I happen to like from Chuck D and others that will never make radio stations. Rap is folk
because it is transmitted culturally and emanates from the street corner and not from the pens of paid songwriters necessarily. Maybe some of you would like to be listening to Pretty Polly and think that's different. Or Fair Ellender staving off the Brown Girl's head and throwing it against the wall. It's all relative.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

I remember Ira and Inman, Art. Worked on a record session, the only one I ever walked out
on. They had this A and R fat man with a cigar from Columbia who wanted to crap up
their record with a sax section and other stuff that didn't belong. They were doing an
a cappella chain gang song. I hated to see it being destroyed. Frank Fried never did forgive me for that I guess. I couldn't sit by and see their career ruined by a stupid A and R guy.
Well, chain gang is close to rap.

Frank


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM

Alice, I'm into it! Straight-Edge sounds good to me since I write songs also that
are "on the edge" but I like the trend that Wiki mentions. Why not have folk as a clean
life style?

Frank


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

Thanks for that, Sean. What a phenomenal clip


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:48 AM

And for those truly initiated into the mythos of Sun Ra, here's something a bit special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Un6pmJK_ZE


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:05 AM

I don't think it is fair to claim Sun Ra's work was Rap when the man is not here to defend himself.

Nuclear War notwithstanding (already linked to in my post of 22 Jul 08 - 08:36 AM!), as anyone with even the most casual acquaintance with his work will know, Sun Ra rapped every word he uttered. And he rapped a length at every show right up to his first stroke. Any amount of this on You Tube of course, but here's one to get you up and dancing:

Sun Ra : Face the Music

Sun Ra's acquaintance with the celebratory colloquialisms of the street is perfectly illustrated by his story of a black youth being beaten up by some white kids; out of the sky comes the voice of God: Leave the mother-fucker alone!


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:35 AM

Thanks for all youe intelligent fair minded points Ron


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Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:50 AM

I don't get quite why you think it isn't music--why isn't it music? or do we have to get down to "what is music?"


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