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BS: Senate Seat for Sale
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: GUEST, heric Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM We are being treated like fuckin idiots. However, I think the problem is more that we are growing lazier while still wealthy, as opposed to collectively idiotic. In about twenty years, people may take to heart what Akenaton is saying now - But as it is, Obama gives us hope and pablum. Ake is an inspiration, and it would be nice to get him a forged birth certificate, but it's too soon for the message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: akenaton Date: 13 Dec 08 - 04:35 PM Genie....As my friend Bobert has already noted, there is no sign of even the toenail clippings of a progressive polititian in Mr Obama's administration. With the financial edifices crumbling around us and the spectre of the worst depression in living memory looming over us,I will repeat what I said months ago. "The US doesn't need a mealy mouthed Harvard lawyer as leader.....they need a "rabble rouser" to unite the people who will bear the brunt of the crimes committed by previous administrations, both Republican and Democrat....Fuck the politicians, they were instrumental in creating this corrupt mess. Its patently obvious who our real enemies are, so let the people unite against them....not fight and argue amongst themselves. Over here in Scotland we have a saying in the old Scots tongue, "Ye need smeddum tae be richt coorse....or richt kind" "smeddum" is bravery, guts, the ability to be inspired to go on, when the obstacles seem insurmountable....spirited. The American people at this juncture need smeddum to rid themselves of the parasites who have preyed on them for decades and made their country a pariah to the rest of the world.....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM "What your country could do with, is a large measure of fury about being treated like fuckin' idiots." Collectively, we are idiots, and it's not going to get any better until something is done to improve public education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 08 - 08:28 AM Well, folks... Seems as if the Republican Party is in such disarray that the only thing they know is to run the same play over and over hoping it will work so expect more of the 90's Republicans with very rich people ponying up to pay for Obama investigations and crate conspiracy theories... But here's the wrinkle in their play book... Not only will they attack, attack, attack Obama but now are perfectly willing to do Boss Hog's biddin' by trying to lay the fault of the econimic meltdown at the feet of unions??? I personally think this ios ill-thought-out on the Repubs part because the working class has had enough of their bullsh*t about just how much ***they*** (Boss Hog) pays in taxes... The Repubs will lose this argument under these econimic circumstances... The working class will not allow the Repubs to put the load on them... It might play well with the Republican Base put the Republican base cannot sustain the Party anymore... But let them flail... I love seeing this... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:06 AM OK, gotta five our sun-god-worshipper pharaoh a bit more of a response. Akenaton: "What your country could do with, is a large measure of fury about being treated like fuckin' idiots. The very worst part is that you all seem to know that the political system is rotten, yet after being comprehensively fucked, you follow your leader Mr Obama, roll over and invite them to fuck you again! I'm beginning to think that the "right" in America are the ones with the balls......and I include Sarah Palin in that. When will it ever dawn on you that change never has been and never will be served up to you by the US Corporate political system? They will use any trick in the book to convince you otherwise....race....gender....finance....terrorism, but as proved by the Anti Vietnam and the Civil Rights Movements, the initiative has to be taken by the American people themselves." Funny, but we're arguing yet we don't really disagree. Except maybe on tactics. I may be wrong, but I think - and I hope - that Barack Obama's tactical disagreements with me (and you?) reflect more his astute grasp of political realities than disagreements with progressive ideals. The Democrats do not have a filibuster-proof majority in the US Senate. And there are a few "blue dog Democrats" who will usually side with the Republicans/conservatives on many voes. It's not like the Democratic/Progressive wing can just push through major policy changes without convincing large portions of the Republican/conservatives to come aboard, without convincing the majority of the voting public to agree. One of the main points repeated by Thom Hartmann in his book, "Cracking The Code: The Art and Science Of Political Persuasion," is that when you want to win someone over to your side, it's important to start by finding common ground. What's too often been lost in US (and maybe other) politics is that search for common ground. Back to the thread topic, specifically. I'd say both (all) parties can agree that Senate seats and other public offices should not be up for the highest bidder. We'd probably probably all agree, too, that flagrant wrongdoers need to be removed from office and probably prosecuted beyond that. Like you, I'm pissed that the Democrats - for reasons I have yet to comprehend, much less endorse - seem to lack the spine to thoroughly investigate/prosecute Republican party wrongdoing. (Does someone have serious "art" on Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid?) Still, I hope and have some faith that Barack Obama is a very shrewd, yet basically clean, politician, who has a firm grasp of how to accomplish needed reforms. That probably doesn't mean being always totally above suspicion. I don't know how anyone who was could possibly be elected dogcather. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 13 Dec 08 - 04:48 AM Akenaton, I'm not sure I fully understand where yer comin' from, but let me throw this out: Yeah, I know the neocons have screwed us (the country) over for - well, at least since the "Reagan revolution" - but, like it or not, this country is so divided (has been for at least 20 years) that nobody's gonna bring about major reforms (salvation) without at least SOME bipartisan backing. As long as we're stuck in the "gotcha!" politics mode, we'll waste the public's attention span and the media's and Congress's resources slapping each other in the face like Curly, Moe, and Larry instead of plugging the growing holes in the dike. To quote our President elect, "ENOUGH!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: akenaton Date: 13 Dec 08 - 03:27 AM "at a time when our nation could really use some healing and bipartisan cooperation" I hope that's just another of your little political jokes Genie!! What your country could do with, is a large measure of fury about being treated like fuckin' idiots. The very worst part is that you all seem to know that the political system is rotten, yet after being comprehensively fucked, you follow your leader Mr Obama, roll over and invite them to fuck you again! I'm beginning to think that the "right" in America are the ones with the balls......and I include Sarah Palin in that. When will it ever dawn on you that change never has been and never will be served up to you by the US Corporate political system? They will use any trick in the book to convince you otherwise....race....gender....finance....terrorism, but as proved by the Anti Vietnam and the Civil Rights Movements, the initiative has to be taken by the American people themselves. Forget token black men or token women listen, to what the bastards say, watch what they do......always remember what they are and where they came from.......You want change?.....break the fuckin' mould!.....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 13 Dec 08 - 02:33 AM Riginslinger - "They're getting closer to Jesse Jackson Jr., and starting to look at Obama." "They?" Maybe Fitzgerald is "getting closer to Jesse Jackson Jr" but the only "they" who are starting to look at Obama - any more than at anyone else who may have any connection to Illinois politics - seem to be the same Republican crowd that set out to dig up some dirt on Bill Clinton before he even took office. There's been nothing revealed by news sources that in any way implicated Obama other than wild-assed speculation, mostly by those who have ulterior motives. Sad to say, at a time when our nation could really use some healing and bipartisan cooperation - after a disastrous 8 years and a solid victory by the Democrats - too many of those who opposed Obama seem more interested in hobbling him right out of the gate than in doing anything to help the country survive the crises we're in. Fitzgerald has lots of taped conversations and other evidence. Why don't we let his office do its job before we go off on witch hunts? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Dec 08 - 10:04 PM "Jackson didn't necessarily know about that proposal but certainly one of his staff people did." Doesn't matter. Jackson Jr. is toast. That's the way American politics work. They're trying desperately to splash some of it on Obama. Time will tell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Rapparee Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:53 PM Bobert, please don't bring Cheney back. Man, I just ate! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:31 PM No, Beezer... Nobody has... Awwww, jus' funnin'... Okay, I'll leave Cheny alone, fir now, but hold the rights to bring him back into the discussion whould need arise... Okay, so back to the seriously messes up Illinois Governor who thought that he was gonna get a call from Obama to speak at the Dem convention, who thought it was okay to get something in return for a Senate appointment, who really didn't get anything at all... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:05 PM If you guys wanna discuss Cheney, Haliburton, and no-bid contracts, how about starting a separate thread for that purpose? Some of us would like to discuss and/or read about something vaguely resembling what the thread title indicates. Has nobody ever explained the meaning of the term "hijack" to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:04 PM Why, Charlie??? This discussion about Cheney is the leader for things to come... We need to figure out why a governor thought it was okay to say stuff like "pay-to-play", why he thought is was pefectly okay to do some of the completely dumbass stuff that he has done... We have a sheriff here in Page County who alot like the governor... Young, handsome, etc. who got busted on 22 felony counts and like them governor didn't have a clue that what he had done was, ahhhhhhh, wrong??? Google "Danny Presgraves" for details... Cheney is a central digure in alot of folks lives and misdeeds... He was the guy who broke all the rules and said it was "Okay"... We can't really discuss the governor of Illinios without discussing Dick Cheney... There is a culture of corruption where people really have no idea that they are doing stuff that is wrong... To discuss this without keeping the role model in mind ain't discussing it at all... These youngin's really don't have a clue that they are committing crimes... That is the real story here... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:41 PM Let's get back to the thread topic, please. So Jessie Jackson, Jr, is somehow implicated? From news reports that I've read it's possible that one of his financial supporters was indeed willing to raise $500,000 or so to have him made senator. Jackson didn't necessarily know about that proposal but certainly one of his staff people did. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM Yeah, right, T 'n pdq... That is so much bull it is barely worth (yet again) responding to but here are the facts... Blind trust or not, the Cheney's showed ****income**** from Halliburton at a time that Halliburten was being awarded no-bid contracts!!! This is a fact!!! It is public information!!! Okay, maybe you two don't care about this but it is a fact... (But, Boerdz, this was perfectly legal...) Well, let me put this another way... If Bill Clinton had donme something like this he would have been ***fried***... If Obam ever come close to this he will be ***fried***... You guys just don't get corruption, do you??? I mean, really... Geeze Louise... Exactly what would Chaney have to do for either of you shills to say, "The boy done messed up"??? I mean, last I heard is that Cheney's approval ratings were around 10%... There is a reason, unbeknownst to either of you Cheney cheerleaders, for that... He is a repulsive crook and I resent my tax dollars being ***handed over*** to his company!!! And 90% of Americans feel exactly like me... I want transparancy in how my tax dollars are spent and that has never occured with Halliburton other than when they tried to scam $6B outta the Treasury... Scammers... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Teribus Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:01 PM Hells teeth pdq, don't whatever you do confuse Bobert with facts that can be clearly established as being the truth - Everybody knows Bobert just can handle the TRUTH!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: pdq Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:57 AM Athough this thread is not about Dick Cheney, and all the possible questions about his estate have been awswered, it looks like we need to go back and look again. All of the assets of Mr. Cheney and his wife were put in a very complex blind trust with at least three compartments.The stock options from Haliburton were a major part of his compensation as it's CEO and my have be their largest asset. Any increase in value of these options was to be given to charities. Any loss in value would be borne by the Cheney's. Three charities were chosen and are as follows: "The charities chosen by the Cheneys are Capital Partners for Education, which provides educational assistance to low-income highschool-age children in the Washington, D.C. area, George Washington University Medical Faculty Associates, also in Washington, D.C., and the University of Wyoming in their home state." Cash, property and deferred salary are seperated treated but also in the blind trust. The only people who could possibly benefit from and increase in value were in the charities. Anybody from the general public who thought that having Haliburton's former CEO as VP could have bought stock in the company. Perhaps the only two people in the world who could not were the Cheney's. About the contracts mentioned, involving driving trucks and feeding troops in Iraq, Haliburton took them because the government asked them to. They are more dangerous for employees and pay less than the company receives for their specialized oil field developement in the oil-rich regions of the world. Also, Haliburton was ranked at about 105 on the top corporations list when Cheney took office. Last time I checked it was at about 155. Some benefit from having "their man" as VP, eh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Teribus Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:53 AM Hey Bobert don't try to convince me, try to convince those who gave the man a clean bill of health to run as V-P. The truth to this day is that nobody has proven any conflict of interest. By the bye Bobert you were asked to provide details of any contract awarded to Halliburton by Dick Cheney. How much out of the public purse is Obama getting to run his "Transition" Office?? In 2000 after the election the Bush-Cheney team were given nothing, the costs were borne privately by Dick Cheney. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 08 - 10:25 AM Exactly who "thoroughly investigated" the Cheney conflict of interest, T??? No, don't hurt yer head on that one 'cause i'm gonna tell you... The Republican dominated governemnt led by George Bush and, ahhhhhh, Dick Cheneym that's who... You still don't get it, do you, T... The worst 8 years of American history since maybe Nixon or maybe the Civil War or maybe the worst ever and here you are with these proclamations od inocence by everyone involved... (It was Bill Clinton's fault, Boberdz... Slick Willie is completely responsible for everything bad that has happened since 2000!!!) I don't buy that bull... And I don't buy your proclamations, T... They are not one bit credible... And, BTW, you may not be aware of American tax codes but every dollar that is donated to charity come off one's "taxable income" which mean's that the US Treasury subsidized Cheney's donations... So that money that came from Halliburton wasn't exactly donated in that Cheney did not financially beneift because he did benefit from the GHallinburton money... That is a fact, T... Check out out tax codes before making any more proclamations that Cheney did not benefit from the money he recieved from Halliburton and after you have all the facts maybe it's you who should just accept that there was conflict of interest and get over your denials... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:22 AM They're getting closer to Jesse Jackson Jr., and starting to look at Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Teribus Date: 12 Dec 08 - 01:41 AM In which case Genie suggest to Obama that the US Government do away with Frame Agreement Contracts and award all work on a competitive bid basis. It will provide great opportunities, increase the risks and probabilities of complete screw ups, delay the completion of the work required to be done and dramatically increase the costs of government in evaluating all those bids and awarding the work. It was precisely to avoid all these pitfalls that Frame Agreement Contracts were thought of. Any conflict of interest issues with regard to Dick Cheney's former employment and him running as VP of the USA were thoroughly investigated and gone into prior to the 2000 Presidential election campaign Bobert. You might not have liked the outcome, but those responsible for doing the checking were quite content with what they found. As to his "pay" Bobert, are you referring to all that money he declared, as he had to, and all that money he donated to charity. Yes Bobert you did go into all of this at the time - the dog didn't hunt then, it isn't hunting now - no case to answer, move on, get over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Rapparee Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:05 PM Don't forget in all this talk about the Senate Seat that Roddy B. also withheld Medicaid funds from a Children's Hospital until the doctors there could come up with an $800,000 "contribution".... My youngest brother called and asked me "Who's going to get the longest jail time -- your Senator or my Governor?" (Idaho Senator Larry Craig just had his guilty plea upheld in Minnesota.) Bro also said that Roddy is probably the loneliest man in Illinois right now, because the Chicago Machine has cut him lose. Of course, his FIL, a rather powerful Chicago Alderman, hasn't seen his grandkids in two years -- and Roddy hasn't talked to his Lt. Governor in 18 months. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM Oh, and, Teribus ("Now all those facets of the job are cost items that have to factored into the bids - You tell me which contractor is best placed to put in the most attractive bid in terms of cost; effectiveness; degree of comfort to the Client. My money would be on Contractor A."), you're still talking about BIDS. Choosing which bid to accept could involve all the factors you mentioned (and more). My quarrel is with the idea of NO-bid contracts. Seems to me the Bush administration has handed out quite a few of those. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:08 PM Teribus, you're right - a number of factors must be weighed in deciding who should get a govt. contract. However: - not all contracts are for military projects and - when competitive bids are submitted for one project a number of companies probably get vetted. It's probably not necessary to start from scratch for everyone when a new project comes up. - it would probably be a good idea for the govt. to keep (current) records on a number of potential contractors, both in terms of competence and in terms of security, just so no one company can take advantage of lack of competition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:34 PM And further more... ...100... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM I think when it was discovered that Halliburton was trying to cheat US that that should have been grounds, if for no other reason, to demote them from no-bid to bid... Also, T, I disagree that "legal" and "above board" are one of the same... Presenting contracts to the Dick Cheney's company, which BTW was still paying him at the timwe the contracts were *given*, might have techincally been legal but above board??? Hardly... It reeked of corruption... I brought this up at the tinme and got purdy much the same "proclamations" from you then as we are getting now... There are more than one reason why Dick Cheney';s approval ratings are even worse than Bush's and this little ball-game that has going with Halliburton is a big factor in his low approval ratings... I realy don't see that this Governor is in the same league with either Dick Cheney or George Bush when it comes to corruption... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Teribus Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM "And even if a policy is fully legal and above board, it doesn't necessarily mean it's sensible, just, or effective. Say a company submits the best bid for rebuilding a bridge and even does a decent job on that project. Automatically handing over all other such projects (not to mention totally different kinds of projects) to that company for several more years on a no-bid basis is an unwise practice and one wildly open to abuse." - Genie Now the Government Departments requiring this work to be done takes your advice Genie and puts the next job for the US Military out in Iraq or Afghanistan out for Competitive Tender. You have say four bidders: Contractor A - Did the last bit of work there, already has all security vetting of personnel and clearances in place, has plant and personnel on site, or at least in the area, are fully familiar with operating routines and systems. Contractors B; C & D - Fully capable of doing the work, all personnel have to go through security vetting to get required clearances, all their plant and equipment must be hired locally or transported to site, once on site they must allow time for aclimatisation and familiarisation with operating routines and systems. Now all those facets of the job are cost items that have to factored into the bids - You tell me which contractor is best placed to put in the most attractive bid in terms of cost; effectiveness; degree of comfort to the Client. My money would be on Contractor A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Rapparee Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM Gee, and here I've been thinking about the Vatican and the Reformation.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: SINSULL Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:26 PM GFS - it was a momentary lapse. I spent the evening reviewing Watergate and Abscam and assorted horrors and came to my senses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM But, Teribus, our feds do continue to hand out no-bid contracts. Not all the work given to Halliburton (etc.) is just an extension of already-existing contracts. And even if a policy is fully legal and above board, it doesn't necessarily mean it's sensible, just, or effective. Say a company submits the best bid for rebuilding a bridge and even does a decent job on that project. Automatically handing over all other such projects (not to mention totally different kinds of projects) to that company for several more years on a no-bid basis is an unwise practice and one wildly open to abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Teribus Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM "Teribus would have us bvelieve that those contracts could only be preformed by Halliburton" - Bobert Now just when did I ever say that Bobert. What I have said is that in 1998 Halliburton put in a Tender/Bid for a five year Service Contract in competition against others. Halliburton won that Contract against its main rivals, within the 5 year period, when work came up that fell into the scope of the services contract it automatically went to the company who had won the services contract in 1998. Not rocket science at all Bobert, and what's more all perfectly legal and above board. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:34 AM From: SINSULL Date: 09 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM I can honestly say that I never suspected that such corruption is possible. How do these people sleep at night? You didn't????!!!!!???!!..(Happens all the time)..just a little slicker! I'm wondering how anyone sleeps at night, knowing such naivete, abounds in such large groups of people..who didn't think our government ON ALL LEVELS, is 'less than corrupt'!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:22 PM No, Genie, I don't condone what the Blagman did but, hey, I think if folks would listen to the LBJ tapes, or even the Nixon tapes, that this is politics in America... Is it corrupt???... Well, heck yeah, it is... But this is the way stuff is done... I'm sure the Givernor was absolutely dumbfounded when he was arrested becuase he was just doin' in American style... I hate to see sacrifical lambs... Either kill 'um all or nuthin'... Every governor in this country has had conversations that if wiretaped wouldn't llok too good... Like I say, I ain't condonin' Blagster's behavior but given the levl of corruption in governemnt I think it pales in comparision to the crap we've seen for the last 8 years... BTW, most of that crap will never be investigated... Never... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM I agree, Bobert. Aren't no-bid contracts and jobs in the federal govt. handed out to your campaign contributors and supporters also bribery, even if it's not strictly illegal? The Bush administration has handed out all sorts of favors involving big money to lots of people just for helping him get elected and get his agenda through. This hardly excuses a jerk like Blagojevich, but our system of campaign finance is an open invitation to tainted politics and corruption. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM Well then, Rap, then let's have at it... I mean, if yer brother-in-law knows stuff then you can bet that lotta folks know stuff and if that's the case then the stuff outta come oozing thru the cracks any minute noe 'cause that is the way human nature is... People love to talk and leak stuff so tell bro to give it up here in Mudville... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM That last post by Rapaire makes it sound like an urban legend... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Rapparee Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:31 PM Bobert, believe me: they have stuff on this guy going back 3 years and 11 months. I know this because my brother told me -- I can't tell you WHY or HOW he knows but he does and it will all be coming out soon. Let's just say that he's in a position to know what's been going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM I think the liberal talk show should re-examine their stance... Hey, not that this guy needs defending, mind you but no one is pointing out the 3 year, 11 month long empty investigation... The linerals are just content to move on... I'm not... If we can dig emepty hole after empty hole on an Illinios governor why can'r we so much as scratch the ground over how Halliburton got those billions and billions without having to bid... Teribus would have us bvelieve that those contracts could only be preformed by Halliburton but that is just not true... Anyone can build a school or cook or drive a truck... Ain't rocket science... None of it was rocket science... Yeah, the liberals are playing way to nice... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: pdq Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM "Candidate #5" is Jesse Jackson, Jr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: JedMarum Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM Candidate #5 is fool for playing along - but I don't suppose he/she is anywhere near as guilty as the scum-bag offering to sell the Senate seat. This is really and truly abhorrent to me, as I am sure it is all of us. Neither party has a lock on bad actors - and this is truly one of the most egregious of transgressions, it seems to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:42 PM I don't think anything's really been confirmed about "Candidate #5." I think all they have on that is Blago's allegation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM Bobert could be right. It could be that all the Democratic governors were under investigation so that uncovered information could be made public when it would do the most damage. Also, I thought it had been confirmed that candidate #5 offered half-a-million for the seat, but that Blagojevich had countered with a million. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:15 PM I guess that no one else finds it the slight bit curious that this guy has been under investigation for, what, 4 years and it's only stuff that he's done very recently that brought charges against him??? Seems very possible to me that the wheels of the gods were grinding slowly, but along came this, and they had to move quickly, lest he got a price he liked and appointed whoever bribed him. Another thought: I understand that it's only recently that they had probable cause to plant a bug in his headquarters and tape his home phone. Those operations brought this forward, in an unmistakable way that gelled the overall investigation and made it ready for indictment. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:40 PM I agree, Donuel. Let's hope nobody gets permanently tainted just by insinuation or accusation (as the Republicans tried so hard to do to Obama throughout the Presidential campaign). Here's an interesting NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/us/politics/10chicago.html?_r=1&nl=pol&emc=pola1&pagewanted=print. December 10, 2008 Obama's Effort on Ethics Bill Had Role in Governor's Fall By MIKE McINTIRE and JEFF ZELENY In a sequence of events that neatly captures the contradictions of Barack Obama's rise through Illinois politics, a phone call he made three months ago to urge passage of a state ethics bill indirectly contributed to the downfall of a fellow Democrat he twice supported, Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich. Mr. Obama placed the call to his political mentor, Emil Jones Jr., president of the Illinois Senate. Mr. Jones was a critic of the legislation, which sought to curb the influence of money in politics, as was Mr. Blagojevich, who had vetoed it. But after the call from Mr. Obama, the Senate overrode the veto, prompting the governor to press state contractors for campaign contributions before the law's restrictions could take effect on Jan. 1, prosecutors say. Tipped off to Mr. Blagojevich's efforts, federal agents obtained wiretaps for his phones and eventually overheard what they say was scheming by the governor to profit from his appointment of a successor to the United States Senate seat being vacated by President-elect Obama. One official whose name has long been mentioned in Chicago political circles as a potential successor is Mr. Jones, a machine politician who was viewed as a roadblock to ethics reform but is friendly with Mr. Obama. Beyond the irony of its outcome, Mr. Obama's unusual decision to inject himself into a statewide issue during the height of his presidential campaign was a reminder that despite his historic ascendancy to the White House, he has never quite escaped the murky and insular world of Illinois politics. It is a world he has long navigated, to the consternation of his critics, by engaging in a kind of realpolitik, Chicago-style, which allowed him to draw strength from his relationships with important players without becoming compromised by their many weaknesses. By the time Mr. Obama intervened on the ethics measure, his relationship with Mr. Blagojevich, always defined more by political proximity than by personal chemistry, had cooled as the governor became increasingly engulfed in legal troubles. There is nothing in the criminal complaint unsealed Tuesday to indicate that Mr. Obama knew anything about plans to seek money and favors in exchange for his Senate seat; he has never been implicated in any other "pay to play" cases that have emerged from the long-running investigation of the Blagojevich administration. But like those previous cases, this latest one features political characters who figure in various stages of Mr. Obama's climb from little-known state senator to presidential candidate, and who have since become politically radioactive because of corruption scandals. Some of those relationships posed a threat to Mr. Obama during the presidential campaign, forcing him to return tens of thousands of dollars in tainted campaign contributions and providing fodder for attack ads by rival candidates. Though extreme examples, they were emblematic of the path cut by Mr. Obama through Chicago politics, where he became known for making alliances of convenience with personalities that seemed antithetical to his self-image as a progressive reformer. His political roots were in the left-leaning neighborhood of Hyde Park, but at key moments in his career he did not hesitate to form relationships with politicians who were fixtures of the Democratic machine. When he ran for the United States Senate in 2004, he aggressively courted Mr. Jones, a sewer inspector turned legislator who had clawed his way up through ward politics and was viewed as something of a kingmaker in the Illinois Democratic Party. He also formed a good working relationship with Mayor Richard M. Daley of Chicago, a symbol of establishment politics with whom Mr. Obama had never been close. Mr. Obama was an adviser to Mr. Blagojevich's first campaign for governor, in 2002, and endorsed him again in 2006, even though by that time questions had been raised about the possible selling of state jobs. Mr. Obama has also credited one of Mr. Blagojevich's closest confidants, Antoin Rezko, a businessman who was convicted of corruption charges this year, with helping him get his own start in politics. Mr. Rezko was among the first to contribute to Mr. Obama's earliest State Senate race, in 1995, and later became a major fund-raiser for his campaign for the United States Senate. Mr. Rezko was known around Chicago as a collector of politicians, and he did not hesitate to make the most of his high-level contacts. The New York Times reported last year that when he was entertaining Middle Eastern financiers at a Four Seasons hotel in Chicago, he arranged for Mr. Blagojevich and Mr. Obama to drop by, separately and on different occasions, to impress his guests. Mr. Rezko derived his political influence mainly from his close relationship with Mr. Blagojevich, who relied on him to recommend loyal campaign contributors for state appointments to boards and commissions, according to the complaint unsealed on Tuesday. But as Mr. Rezko's legal troubles escalated, Illinois politicians who had previously found him useful, including Mr. Obama, disavowed him and started returning his campaign donations. Mr. Obama's relationship with Mr. Blagojevich was not much better when he made the decision to call Mr. Jones in September about the stalled ethics bill. For Mr. Obama, the move marked an unusual return to Illinois politics, turf from which he had studiously worked to distance himself throughout the presidential race. At the time, one week before the first presidential debate of the general election campaign, Republicans were trying to tarnish him in the eyes of voters by attempting to link him to Chicago's history of corrupt politics. Mr. Obama used leverage that he had seldom employed — publicly, anyway — and strongly urged Mr. Jones to bypass Mr. Blagojevich and approve the ethics bill, banning the so-called pay-for-play system of influence peddling in Illinois. When asked at the time how Mr. Obama had come to be involved, Mr. Jones replied, "He's a friend." When the Illinois Senate passed the measure by 55 to 0 on Sept. 22, with Mr. Jones reversing his position, Mr. Obama praised the move as one creating "a tougher ethics law that will reduce the influence of money over our state's political process." Mr. Obama's intervention deepened a rift between him and Mr. Blagojevich that had been growing for some time. When Mr. Blagojevich left Congress in 2002, he talked openly about the notion of running for president one day. After he was elected governor, and after Senator John Kerry lost the presidential race in 2004, he began eyeing a potential run in 2008. It was short-lived. The federal corruption investigation that eventually led to Mr. Rezko's indictment, and Tuesday's charges against Mr. Blagojevich, had already begun to taint the governor's administration. And by 2006, Mr. Obama had eclipsed the governor as a plausible national candidate, dashing his presidential aspirations. The criminal complaint unsealed Tuesday underscored the acrimony between the two men. Recorded telephone calls showed Mr. Blagojevich being far less than respectful when discussing the president-elect and voicing frustration at his inability to advance beyond the governor's office. "If I don't get what I want and I'm not satisfied with it, then I'll just take the Senate seat myself," the governor said, according to the criminal complaint. Later, he said the Senate seat was a "valuable thing — you just don't give it away for nothing." Meanwhile, Mr. Blagojevich was busily trying to shake loose up to $2.5 million in campaign donations, much of it from contributors with business before the state, according to federal prosecutors. The governor's goal was to bring in the money before the end of the year, the complaint said, "before a new state ethics law goes into effect on Jan. 1, 2009." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Donuel Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:33 PM Govenor Blagojevich whose head inspired the animated TV cartoon 'Jimmy Neutron' and whose political rise to power inspired 'Omen III', is going to be prevented from legally selecting himself for the Senate Seat by a new law to be passed by the Illinois Legislature. Obama will be relieved to have Blago not sully his administration with Chicago political machine shenanigans. Too bad Jesse Jackson Jr. is being connected to Blago as the secret candidate #5. Lets hope this doesn't become a witch trial by insinuation that destroys good people by rumor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Rapparee Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:31 PM There's also the matter of conspiracy...remember that Roddy isn't along in the warrant. Roddy is taking all the heat, but John (I think it's John) Harris is also named. I'm pretty sure it's not BOB Harris.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:24 PM I'm not sure he's off the hook. If there's clear evidence that he solicited bribes (e.g., asked for an offer of money or goods in exchange for an appointment or a government contract), I believe that in itself is a crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: pdq Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM "First of all, where I in Fitzgerald's place I'd do exactly what he did: arrest Roddy and try to stop him from selling a seat..." Actually, by arresting him immediatly, before he could "sell" the Senate seat, Fitzgerald prevented gov. Blagojevich from committing a crime. Now, it can be said that he "just thinking about it", which is not a crime. This allows the governor to step down and say he is sorry and go home a free man. Much less damage to the party that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: SINSULL Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM The timing looks right to me. He was about to sell off a seat in the Senate and going public was the only way to stop it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Senate Seat for Sale From: Genie Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:13 PM You're right, Ron, and that's an important factor. Blagojevich did rev up his efforts to line his pockets before the new reforms went into effect on Jan. 1, and that in itself probably hastened is being exposed for corruption. I actually think Blagojevich is not just extremely corrupt but also mentally unstable - perhaps even delusional. Not unlike Nixon. Somehow he convinced himself that he could not only shake down contract bidders, current office holders and would-be office holders in exchange for designated funds, appointments, etc., but that he could talk openly about this stuff on the phone while inviting both legal and illegal eavesdropping and wire taps. Pretty crazy, IMO. Did he, like Nixon, think that because he was acting as a chief executive whatever he did was legal? |
