BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:47 PM

I was intending to contribute to this discussion, but then it turned into the usual Cornish swearfest and I thought "Why Bother"?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

Lizzie, just as a matter of interest I thought you said (with some pride I thought) your daughter was studying for an Open University Degree on her own about the History of Art?

Now have you told her Most degrees are no longer worth the paper they're written on, but those who print the paper don't want you to know this.

Have you given your daughter the benefit if your theories? No need to answer this - I suspect we all know. No contradiction there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:34 PM

This from the Royal College of Nursing (aka nurses' union):

It is possible to take either a diploma or degree course to qualify as a nurse. Education is provided by universities, with placements in local hospital and community settings. The course is 50 per cent theory and 50 per cent practical. The first year is a Common Foundation Programme, which will introduce you to the basic principles of nursing. You will then specialise in either adult, children's, mental health or learning disability nursing. Full time diploma courses last three years. Degree courses last three or four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

"Suppose that a person has had or needs traumatic back surgery. You do not want an untrained - even if well-meaning - person coming in and rolling the petient around as she or he might everyone else."


Excuse me, but er....like....er...Nurses are properly TRAINED to deal with all situations such as these. You can't just walk in off the street and be a nurse, you have to er...like..er...have 'training'...yer know...like...

The Royal College of Nursing should be up in arms about this, and should be telling Patronising Politicians who have their fingers stuck inside Degree Developing HoneyMoneyPots that they are completely up their own arses!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

:However the bulk of the work in a ward is related to changing beds, helping patients etc. Does that work need a degree?
Is ther a level in Uk hospitals for this and are they exempt from having to get a degree?" The Villan

The bulk of the physical work, perhaps, but even that is subject to the supervision of a higher classification.

Suppose that a person has had or needs traumatic back surgery. You do not want an untrained - even if well-meaning - person coming in and rolling the petient around as she or he might everyone else.

"The buck stops here." Right at the degreed nurse's desk, NOT on the back of the person with a certificate, valuable as that person is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

Most degrees are no longer worth the paper they're written on, but those who print the paper don't want you to know this.

So...shhhhhhhhh....don't let on...else The Degree Industry may start to lose money...and then those who run it will all be having heart attacks and may have to end up being nursed by an ANWAD (A Nurse Without A Degree) who should of course, refuse to take care of them, because 'they' don't believe any Nurse can possibly nurse without their piece of official paper....but Nurses ain't like that so 'they' will still get Incredible Care and Attention, and who knows, they may just find their heart attacks have changed their hearts for the better...


To Degree or not to Degree?
That is the question.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:02 PM

"Let me see the hands of everyone who wants their medications administed by a "nurse" without a degree....

I thought so."

Er...sorry sunshine, but most of us have been having **exactly** that for as long as we can remember.....and they have always done an excellent job!


"While we're at it - why should brain surgeons have a silly degree?? I would think three months in a technical school of some sort would teach them everything they need to know....."

Oh, purleeeze...!

Neuro surgeons fix brains.
Cardiac surgeons fix hearts.

Nurses.......fix PEOPLE!

This is insanity, total mind boggling, mind controlling insanity....and yes, Greg is spot on, because soon, none of us will be able to do anything without the 'correct' examination papers!

Yeesh!

I recall Phil Beer, a very long time back, marvelling at how these days you even need to have a degree to be a lighting engineer/sound engineer/roadie etc....saying that in his day, you simply learnt this as you went along and everyone got on just fine...

WE are The New Industry, just in case folks haven't realised it yet...and it starts from when we are children, tests, exams, results, tests, exams, results...

Well, nurses have been getting those 'results' for centuries, without any bloody bits of 'official' paper..

GeeZ!


Soon, you will need a degree to be a butcher, a baker, a candlestick maker and the whole of humanity will become so stressed out and so judgemental of one another, sniffing down their noses at those who do NOT have a degree as if they are something that's crawled out from under a stone.

I have a friend who was a nurse..and boy, was she damn bloody wonderful at it. No degree, but a full Nurse's training...You know guys, that 'stuff' where nurses get to go to Nursing College and they er..um..get to learn about people, about biology, about medicine, about what makes a heart tick, inside and out...and not just the bits labelled aortic and mitral valves, but the parts labelled souls too...

How disgustingly insulting to all nurses to insinuate that they have no idea what the f*ck they're doing because they don't have a Damn Degree after their name! When did we all lose the plot so badly that apparently we can no longer function without a degree after our names, because without that we are no longer whole???????????

I tell you this, there's one helluva lot of people out there WITH degrees who don't seem to know what time of day it is! They can't add up, they can't write correctly, they can't even seem to form a proper sentence when they talk. I know this is because they have taken The Dumbed Down Degree where you only need to have around 40% to pass, but really....have we all become SO stupid as to believe that Nurses can't nurse without a degree?????????????????????


Beam me up, Scottie!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

There are degrees, certificates and licenses. They all mean different things although they are not all mutually exclusive.

Degrees are granted by degree-granting institutions. Certificates are usually granted by institutions other than universities although not always. Licenses are granted by licensing authorities which are usually not universities or colleges.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:20 PM

Changing sheets, etc., not done by registered nurses in Canada, but by a less-well trained level.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

In Oz, the training of nurses used to be by what seemed to be an extended apprenticeship system over 4 years; this allowed one to become a Registered Nurse and nurses always wore the badge of their training hospital. The most common types of further training were in the fields of Midwifery (a "Double Certificate" nurse usually took this route) and ICU (most of the "Triple Certificate" nurses I knew had these three) and these extra certifications each took two years' hospital training.

For the last two decades there has been a gradually increasing requirement that nurses undergo university education (towards a four year degree for the most basic requirements to become registered and the usual postgraduate system has provided the advanced training for specialist nurses; all training requires practicums. Those who only do a year's basic training are employed as State Enrolled Nurses (SENs) and perform all the basic tasks that keep the patients improving; any person now wishing to commence training for nursing is required to enrol in a university nursing degree course.

One of the advantages of a university education in an intensely vocational discipline is that it (usually but not universally) provides the graduate with an increased ability to learn, analyse, integrate, and generally make increasingly sophisticated judgements on matters relevant to the discipline. That isn't to say that those without a university education can't do such things, but you ought to be able to expect them, routinely, from those who have experienced a proper university education.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Don't forget that we are also dealing with insurance companies and bureaucracies. Among other things, they hate the moment in any negligence trial when one of the attorneys turns to the witness and asks, "Do you have a professional license?" or "Have you taken the mandated ongoing educational courses to maintain your license on subject X?"

Questions like these strike fear into the hearts of hospital administrators because they can make an institution more vulnerable in liability cases. If a person has these qualifications, they and the institution are less vulnerable to lawsuit judgements based upon the question of whether the worker is qualified to do the job. They have the documentation

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:41 PM

"Nurses have always known 'as much if not more than the doctor'....and to be honest, I'd feel safer in a nurse's hands than a doctor's, because all day long they are dealing with patients at ground level, having far more experience and expertise to deal with a thousand different problems."

Yes, Lizzie and they got that knowledge while obtaining their degrees...

As for "changing beds, helping patients, etc" that work hasn't been done by nurses in a long time, at least where I am from. That is the work of CNAs (Certified Nurse's Assistants) or MAs (Medical Assistants) which are still generally 2 year programs and require a "degree" or "certificate".

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM

There are, of course, people who now think folk singers should have degrees. There will soon be very little in the way of employment opportunities for people without a load of bits of paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:24 PM

By the sounds of it, it all comes down to classification.

If we are saying that a nurse is the highest level and must know how to administer drugs, monitor and do things that a doctor or consultant would do, then yes they do need a very good training. Should that be academic or practical or both.

However the bulk of the work in a ward is related to changing beds, helping patients etc. Does that work need a degree?
Is ther a level in Uk hospitals for this and are they exempt from having to get a degree?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

Back rubs- In WW2, at the Army hospital I served with, I remember the young women who went around the wards and private rooms giving back rubs and other services that the patient couldn't do himself. Called nursing assistants, they wore pinkish garb rather than the whites or military drab that other workers wore.

A much appreciated service!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

There some other two year program in there, art, I am not sure what they call if, but my daughter in CT is takign the courses and will be allowed to administer shots when she is done. I though it would make her a nurse, but she says she'll be a "medical technician." When I trained as a nurses aid which took a full school year, nine months, there were Licensed Practical Nurses, LPNs, who had two year degrees and could give meds. They were just a cut above we NAs.

What I have seen, as a patient, and heard from nurses, is there are no NAs any more to do the work I used to do; that nurses must change sheets, bath, wipe bottoms, empty bedpans, etc. But, the one most important thing, imo, they don't do that we NAs did was give back rubs, just a simple back rub...if they'd implement them, again, as part of the evening ritual in hospital, I am sure many patients would be much comforted and sleep better. I had a head nurse who was a real stickler about that; she recognised the importance of healing touch, esp. when a person is scared and not feeling well. Medicine has really done a number on patients. After my heart surgery, they insisted I wear the CPAP at night. I need my hair braided in order to do so. Not one nurse would help me with my hair. I could not reach up as it hurt so badly. My daughter was at work and busy with her baby, Rog doesn't know how to braid. I finally asked a friend to come up and do it, then kept it in that same braid for the rest of the time I was there. It was such a simple thing and made me feel so dismayed and hurt when each one of them refused to help me, saying it wasn't their job. My hair was not dirty, in a nasty snarl or anything.

Sorry for the venting, but it did really bother me as I knew, as an aide, it would have been my duty and pleasure to help a patient with such a task, esp. the night after their chest had been cracked open!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM

In the US there are:

Nurse Practitioners, who have Masters degrees and generally function as a independent practitioner, doing much the same as a GP physician. Nurse Midwives are a subset of the Nurse Prac.

Masters Degree Registered Nurses who function as specialists in such fields as infection control, nursing education and case management.

Registered Nurses with bachelors degrees (4-5 years) (most common), who perform the full range of nursing duties, including emergency room, operating room and critical care.

Registered Nurses with Associate Degrees (2 years), who do general nursing duties.

Registered Nurses with Diplomas who basically did an apprenticeship in a hospital. This program no longer exists, and diploma nurses are (literally) a dying breed.

Licensed Practical Nurses (Vocational Nurses in California and Texas) who go through a one-year program. Their scope of practice is limited; for example, most can issue medication in a hospital, but cannot start an IV.

Certified and Registered Nursing Assistants, who go through a 3-4 month program. They do most personal care duties, and are the ones who are most often seen in nursing homes.

Nursing Aids, who have very limited training.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Let me see the hands of everyone who wants their medications administed by a "nurse" without a degree....

I thought so.

While we're at it - why should brain surgeons have a silly degree?? I would think three months in a technical school of some sort would teach them everything they need to know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

I have a friend who is studying to be a psychiatric nurse.

He needs to understand what different disorders there are and how those who suffer from them behave and need to be cared for.

Just marching in with sleeves rolled up and "common" sense would potentially be very damaging.

To explain why I would have to teach you about different disorders and how they have to be treated.

That's what my friend is learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:38 PM

I *am* keeping to the point, Villan, if you don't mind.

I read that article in the paper today and it incensed me!

"Nurses need to have a degree because they need to know as much if not more than the doctor in order to provide safe, quality patient care. They need to know what symptoms indicate and administered medications and such and for that you need education. "

Nurses have always known 'as much if not more than the doctor'....and to be honest, I'd feel safer in a nurse's hands than a doctor's, because all day long they are dealing with patients at ground level, having far more experience and expertise to deal with a thousand different problems.

To make nurses take degrees is an insult...and it is one more dangerous step to total control in an already deeply controlling society.

Florence Nightingale and Edith Cavell must be turning over in their graves!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:02 PM

Yes I understand that Becca.

So long as there are openings for many people who want to care and look after people who are ill, which doesn't need a degree, but does need common sense and rolling the sleeves up and getting on with it.

There are many people acting as carers for their beloved ones, who probably don't have any skills in the nursing side, but look after them with loving care and get a pittance. We need more of those sort otherwise we will end up with a top heavy organisation. The pen pushers and the doers.

I wonder wether we should make all carers get a degree before they can care for their beloved.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:00 PM

Whether a nurse needs a degree is predicated on the hospital or doctor's office policy.   It is also--in the U S --predicated on the various state rules. They all, however, do have to have a license to be an RN.

When you get down to it---leaving aside personality and character---the work is a technical thing in need of tech expertise and not the cultural and more esoteric matters a college degree would offer.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:49 PM

I think the qualities described in the opening post are more related to 'caregiver' than nurse. Nurses need to have a degree because they need to know as much if not more than the doctor in order to provide safe, quality patient care. They need to know what symptoms indicate and administered medications and such and for that you need education.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: mg
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

I think it is good for nurses to have 4 year degrees and advanced master's etc...nurse practitioners etc.

I also believe there should be many more opportuniities for those with a two year degree or even less to have important jobs in health care and we will need every one we will get ..with the nurses being the ones running the clinics etc. and others doing much of the patient care..as it is done now but more so. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

Why do all nurses need to have a degree? .....









......... To get to the other side ........


                                           .... I'll get my coat .....

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

My two cents... nurse... toughest job there is short of soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

sigh... That is the way it is going, I am afraid.

I have a university degree and license to teach in the US. I could take some courses and get qualified in UK, but as I am not well enough to fight off the germs the little darlings spawn, I cannot teach.

So I work for County Council in non-challenging admin post, seriously under employed. This council is downsizing in a big way. Out sourcing non front line staff, and they are offering "back office" staff a government funded NVQL 2 training package, to ease the blow of having to apply for our own jobs with new "partner" (in this case IBM). At first I thought, "What and insult!" I have a degree, decade of business admin experience and am proficient in all software apps, including building complex databases and learning and using bespoke applications. Then I found out that I cannot apply because the funding is specifically for upskilling the workforce. I am overqualified for the training.

So here I am, with no viable accreditation to my name, age and health working against me and my work experience means diddly to the big corporation who will potentially be my manager. Am I afraid? Yes.   

I know someone who's daughter has severe dyslexia. She has been a nursery nurse (children's day care worker) for several years. Now she has to get a degree to continue in this job. She cannot do formal education as she has emotional scars from poor educational experience and still struggles with the disability.

Nursery nurses do not earn very much. Something on a par with retail floor staff, I guess. But the government expects her and others to take a degree and pay for it to boot? World's gone mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

It is going to be tough to have a rational transatlantic discussion of this issue, since the medical systems in the US and UK are so radically different. In the US, we have registered nurses and vocational nurses (licensed practical nurses). Vocational nurses usually have two years of training past high school, and generally complete an Associate of Arts degree in the process. There is a two-year registered nursing program, in California and some other states, but almost a year of prerequisite courses are required. And 2-year RNs find themselves restricted after graduation, and are usually not allowed to serve in management positions without a four-year degree. And many registered nurses have master's degrees or doctorates, or other advanced certifications like nurse-midwife or nurse-practitioner.
If you're in the hospital in the United States, it's most likely that it will be a nurse who heals you - you'll be lucky to see a doctor for more than a few minutes a day.

I don't know what the situation is in the UK and Europe. I get the impression that both doctors and nurses have had a lower level of education. US physicians finish high school at age 18, and then attend a four-year undergraduate degree program before entering a four-year medical school. After completing a doctorate, there is a one-year internship and then "residency" for two or more years of specialty training.

And then they get fantastic salaries so they can pay off their student loans and liability insurance (and BMW payments). US Nurses get pretty good salaries, too - but it's hard to get wealthy on a nurse's salary.

There are non-degree nursing assistants and medical assistants in the US system, but there is debate about how much they should be used. Handling bed baths and bed pans may seem like good work for a nursing assistant, but bed baths and bed pans provide an excellent opportunity for assessment of a patient's health and potential problems.

-Joe, who supported an ex-wife through nursing school and is now married to a chiropractor-

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

OK

I understand and agree that if there are nursing assistants, so long as they do not need to get a degree and they are the doers and the academics are the chiefs.

Makes sense and answers my query.

Lizzie, keep to the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:54 PM

Nursing assistants, as guest stated, do much of the practical ward work. Registered nurses must know much about medical, drug and operating room techniques; many are specialized; they are in short supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Why do they need a degree?

Why, to send yet more money into the pockets of those who have deliberately created a society where no-one can get a job without the latest 'must have' requirement, be it a degree or an NVQ or an Apprenticeship.....

Clever, huh?

Just like the GCSEs, AS and A Levels, that now fill the minds of young people, who think that without them they are not REAL people...

Total Corporate Crap..


And.....I wonder how many politicians have a finger in the Examination/Edukashon Pie?   Probably quite a few.

Nurses have been nurses for centuries.   It is highly insulting to every single nurse in the land to say that they don't come up to standard without a bloody degree.

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

For one thing it is the nature of our society. My mother and aunt became teachers with one year of college and high school respectively. Over the years as the number of qualified applicants increased they were forced to get degrees or quit.

Another thing is that Nurses are required to have more responsibilities than they once did.

Another thing is that Nursing assistants are now doing the work that you refer to. If someone wants that work without a degree they can be Nursing assistants. Why should the employer pay the wages of a nurse without getting the resume?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:39 PM

It seems you pose the question as if one can have a degree or be practical and loving and caring, but not both.

Nurses need to be able to have the knowledge to meet standards of certification so we know they can handle the job. Their personality and character is going to be individual to them, just as in any other occupation.

Subject: BS: Why do all nurses need to have a degree?
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:35 PM

I know there will be many academics, who think that having a degree will solve the problems of the world, but I fail to understand why all nurses need to have a degree.

Nurses need IMHO to be practical, loving and caring and understand what patients are going through. They also need to be able to deal with emergencies in the flash of a second. They also need to be able to roll their sleeves up and get on with the job. Mucking out springs to mind.

I would agree that maybe senior ward nurses should have a degree, but the best nurses IMHO are the doers who don't have degrees. They have the basic skills to deal with people who are ill.

We are in danger of losing soem very fine nurses, who are not academics.

What say yee.

No flaming or being offensive to anybody please. This is a very emeotional subject. Stick to nursing.