BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

And apparently, there are now 400,000 people who've signed the Facebook page calling for this march to be banned, so instead of carrying on your campaign against me, may I politely suggest you get your arse over to Facebook and deal with 400,000 people who you'd obviously deem racist as well, I presume.

Guess what? The discussion part of thread has been closed because people have been making racist comments on it!

You couldn't make it up really.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

I have very different memories of England, of Britain, than you do, purely because I've lived here one helluva lot longer, which is not racist, merely a common sense observation, whether it irks you or not...and I recall a time very different from now, when TRUE democracy abounded, and with that democracy went respect.

Well, funnily enough, I have lived here 57 years now and I don't remember any chocolate box cottages with roses in the garden either. I remember lots of joy, fun and freedom. I remember hot summers and cold winters. I remember a time very different from now and one very similar in some ways. I also remember miners strikes. The demonisation of trade unions. The institutionalised racism in all walks of life.

Is it any better now? No better or worse for me. Then I had my youth, now I have my family. Then I had to put up with being a 'Fucking Polak'. Now I don't. Then I had the Beano to make me laugh. Now I have Mudcat:-)

Just a common sense observation...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:10 AM

"Can you please not tell the same old lies about me harrassing the BBC staff, even though, again, you do it to paint me in the worst light. The BBC accused me of that, when it didn't actually happen at all..."

Well, given it's your word against theirs (and you did once post the message they sent), and given your track record, I know who I'm inclined to believe. Others, of course, can make up their own minds.

"Strange how three little letters reveal so much about a person."

Well, 'Liz', I for one am rather inspired by an incident a few months ago. A 15 year old girl posted on Mudcat to counter some of your more hysterical claims about "the youth of today" by talking about the experiences of herself and her friends. You insisted on putting quote marks around her name to imply that you didn't believe that she was who she said she was, even though she asked you repeatedly to stop doing it (and she was quite upset by it, because she put a lot of consideration into her very well-articulated posts). If you would not acknowledge her right to be addressed with respect (and several Mudcatters called you on your bullying, patronising behaviour at the time), why should you be treated any differently? Oh that's right - it's one rule for 'Liz', another for anyone else.

Besides, as D el G pointed out earlier, Lizzie isn't even your real name, which makes the situation all the more ridiculous.

"As I said, you and you're gang have repeatedly tried to ban me from here, let alone succeeding with the BBC."

This is patently not true - you have only ever been banned for your own behaviour. And you WERE banned from Mudcat on a couple of occasions because you managed to piss Joe Offer off through doing things like creating multiple identities so that you could agree with yourself.


"Freedom for all, apart from those you don't like..."

Irony...like silvery and goldy, innit, 'Liz'? Isn't that exactly your approach to free speech? See, the thing you need to understand is that your right to express your opinion is fine; but if other people respond, disagree with you, and disassemble your arguments with logic and evidence, they are not removing your right to free speech; they are simply disagreeing with you. You appear to believe that free speech includes the freedom not to be challenged in your (utterly wrong-headed) beliefs. I'm afraid you are mistaken.



Ooh, another jewel - "political correctness gone mad"! And I missed this one earlier: "people who loathe this country, living here, taking advantage of all they can" - would that be "coming over here and taking all our jobs", or is this a reference to your bog-standard benefit scroungers? Which right-wing, Norman Tebbit-esque cliche were you actually employing in this instance? just for clarification, you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

I haven't read every single post on this thread but it would have been a disgrace for this protest to take place in this country full stop, but to decide to do it in Wootton Bassett is particularly insensitive. If anyone wishes to highlight the plight of Muslims in Afghanistan globally then there are plenty of places in the world that they can go!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:48 AM

And apparently, there are now 400,000 people who've signed the Facebook page calling for this march to be banned, so instead of carrying on your campaign against me, may I politely suggest you get your arse over to Facebook and deal with 400,000 people who you'd obviously deem racist as well, I presume.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM

You know, the 'Liz' thing is a really interesting 'mind' one.

There is only one person on here who calls me that...and calls me that out of a deep friendship, too...and that person has been on this thread, but all the others on here who've used it have used it purely to be malicious.

Strange how three little letters reveal so much about a person.

Can you please not tell the same old lies about me harrassing the BBC staff, even though, again, you do it to paint me in the worst light. The BBC accused me of that, when it didn't actually happen at all, because at no time did I address any of my emails to anyone in particular, merely replied to theirs. Again, I realise this irks you, and it's far better, from your point of view, with your vision of how you want others to view me, to paint that picture, but I have told you, over and again about this, yet still you choose to tell a complete lie.

Interesting.

I guess some use their free speech to spin, lie and put others down as much as they can..

And you feel that's what democracy is for, huh?

As I said, you and you're gang have repeatedly tried to ban me from here, let alone succeeding with the BBC.

May I suggest you go back to you FAF page, and your buddies' page, where you are free to put down whatever lies and terrible comments about me that you want to...for after all, that's what your Folk Against Facism page is about, right...? Freedom for all, apart from those you don't like...

You carry on and use your freedom of speech to wound, Joan, it's obviously where you get your enjoyment from...but please, don't tell me that I have to accept people preaching hatred and putting my country down, because I don't.

I have very different memories of England, of Britain, than you do, purely because I've lived here one helluva lot longer, which is not racist, merely a common sense observation, whether it irks you or not...and I recall a time very different from now, when TRUE democracy abounded, and with that democracy went respect. And if something was terribly wrong, then society, as a majority, spoke out against it. We no longer do that..and in becoming apathtic due to the stress of political correctness gone mad, we have lost something very dear to the shores of this land.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

"If you let the rest of the world see you as a soft touch, then you will be treated like one."

So we've got Soft Touch Britain and "If you don't like how we do things here, leave." Not to mention yesterday's classic "How can we tuen Islam BACK to peace?" Any more right-wing, knee-jerk, reactionary drivel you'd like to post before lunch?


"Stupid ideas like yours"

Stupid ideas like the free speech which you constantly advocate and defend - for yourself? I know this is a difficult concept for you, 'Liz', but I will try and spell it out once more: when you curtail the civil liberties of the many to punish the few, the terrorists and extremists are winning. Before you go on about the unwritten rules in our democracy, I suggest you do a bit of reading and find out what they actually are. How are you getting on with that Billy Bragg book, by the way? Or is it still gathering dust on your shelf?


Now, I have tried to stick to the actual issues being debated here, but as you've chosen (as usual) to make it personal, let's make something perfectly clear: I never did anything to have you banned from the BBC messageboards, or any of the other myriad places from which you have been banned on the internet (including this one, on more than one occasion). The BBC banned you for persistently harassing its staff, as we know because you actually made the messages public. Remember the bit where they said action would be taken if you didn't leave them alone? You have no one but yourself and your antisocial behaviour to blame, but it's clear you're not good at accepting the truth of these situations, and it serves you better to believe that other people have done something to "get you banned". Sorry, 'Liz', but the fault lies with you and you alone.

Now, if the BBC choose to ban you from being antagonistic and disruptive on their messageboards and from harassing their staff, I guess that's their right. But if you wanted to conduct a protest about their decision to ban you outside Broadcasting House, I would fully support your right to do so, even if I thought that you were completely bonkers. That's free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:10 AM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

...you're angry that Joe HAS allowed me freedom of speech on here, against the wishes of you and your pals.

This is absolutely priceless and getting better by the minute. Keep it up Betty.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:43 AM

I reckon this is building up to one of those threads where Lizzie leaves and never returns.

Subject: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 08:46 PM

This is my final thread on Mudcat, after being told that I don't see music in the same way as you 'musicians'...and being kind of lambasted for daring to say I thought Eddi Reader had the most beautiful voice..

Sometimes Lizzie changes her mind in the space of twenty minutes.

Sometimes it takes a little longer.

One thing is for certain. She has left Mudcat never to return more times than anyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:35 AM

"Except that I have made this point repeatedly: Britain DOES stand for tolerance. And free speech. And it defends the right to dissent. So when some (rather reactionary) people try and "protect" British culture by suggesting that anyone with "unacceptable" views should leave the country, there is a deep irony in their failure to grasp even the fundamental structures on which their democracy is founded."


Britain does NOT stand for Bloody Stupidity though...and for too long, we have.

We have put up with way too much shit for way too long, and you can only push the British so far before we explode.

'Tolerant' means that we put with way more shite than other countries, because of our kind and welcoming nature, but when that tolerance is abused....when our kindness and welcome are spat on with hatred, then sorry, but....the door is over there....

Stupid ideas like yours, where we should tolerate ANYONE and ANYTHING have led us to the state we are now in, where you have people who loathe this country, living here, taking advantage of all they can, whilst secretly preaching hatred and abuse to young men and undermining our society....or gangs from Eastern Europe who bring their tribal wars over here, their prostitutio rackets, etc.....

It stinks.

And if it had been stopped a long while back, things would be far better now.

If you let the rest of the world see you as a soft touch, then you will be treated like one.

Unconditional Love is not what democracy is about, because with that always come those who will abuse the love. Respect is what democracy is about, and with respect goes never preaching hatred or choosing to blow people up, hurt them, steal from them, or bring terror to people. That is unacceptable.

Democracy carries Responsibility with it.

And that goes for all people, of all colours, backgrounds and religions, no matter if they've lived here for generations or have just arrived on our shores.

We have long forgotten the respect part, in our rush to claim democracy as an open free for all, for all to behave as they so choose.

There have always been unwritten rules within our democracy, covering respect for others...Those rules have been thrown away by people who ain't interested in them. They are only interested in themselves and their visions.

And Lox, I do not defend 'wrong', no matter who the friend may be.

I will always tell someone when they are wrong. But I will be there to mop up the tears and give hugs to, when they're needed.

Tough Love
Tough Democrary


AND....as you believe so much in free speech, as does your pal Ralph, I'm sure you'll both now be writing to the BBC to ask them to restore MY freedom of speech on there...and to stop kicking up such a spiteful hullabaloo on here purely because you're angry that Joe HAS allowed me freedom of speech on here, against the wishes of you and your pals.

Once again, it staggers me that someone with your outlook, who seeks to stop people from having an opinion, having a voice, is running FAF, but...Wonders Never Cease...as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

I won my pound or penny - whichever way it works anyway:-)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:46 AM

GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won."

Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread.<<<



Thank you. x

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 AM

It's been reported in todays papers that it's now been cancelled.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:43 AM

It is usual to deny permission for demonstrations likely to lead to disorder. Marches in NI are a good example.
The WB demo was sure to have counter demos and had to be banned, IMO.
As for Lizzie, she does not seem at all racist or bigotted to me, but I too have been falsely accused of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

"Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread."

How? Has anyone prevented her from saying exactly what she likes? No, they've simply disagreed with her and demonstrated that her arguments are inflammatory and prejudicial, founded on misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Anybody able to do something good for society and help this Charity.

thread.cfm?threadid=126422&messages=5

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"Anybody going to stop bickering and state clearly whether they support the protest or not."

I did earlier too, in my words.

Then the discussion evolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won."

Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:15 PM

So thats a YES then Ruth.

No problem with that. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM

Villan, it's academic at this stage, but I stated toward the beginning of the thread that, much as I might disagree with what Choudary has to say, I support his right to protest peacefully. I also supported the BBC in their decision to put Nick Griffin on Question Time. You can't change the rules just because you don't like what somebody has to say. When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM

Anybody going to stop bickering and state clearly whether they support the protest or not.

I doubt it as you are all too insensed trying to blame each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:59 PM

I know Lizzie doesn't support the BNP.

I am joining the ranks of thse catters who wish she would stop and think before she posts.

Lizzie would be a great friend if you were in trouble. She'd fight for you whether you were right or wrong.

But sometimes you need to pause and reflect on which battles you want to fight that way.

Sometimes it takes strength to acknowledge you have made a mistake and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

Except that I have made this point repeatedly: Britain DOES stand for tolerance. And free speech. And it defends the right to dissent. So when some (rather reactionary) people try and "protect" British culture by suggesting that anyone with "unacceptable" views should leave the country, there is a deep irony in their failure to grasp even the fundamental structures on which their democracy is founded.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:51 PM

When people are quoted out of context, they can be made to look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:43 PM

'Liz' said:

"bugger off and leave my country alone, because my country stands for fairness, tolerance..."


Oh the irony. Just like silvery and goldy, dontcha know.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:39 PM

Tell me this then, clever clogs...if you think that I think as the BNP do, then why am I one of the people they've targetted in Facebook and in Myspace?

Geez, Lox, lately you take my breath away with your insulting posts. Take a look at my posts about the BNP in other threads before you start making accusations.

And I did not say 'they' as in 'Muslims' so don't misrepresent what I said. I said if *anyone* hates my country, then *they* can bugger off out of it. That means anyone of any colour or religion or creed. If you love this country, then fine...absolutely wonderful, welcome with open arms, but if you come to spread hatred, to take revenge, then no, bugger off and leave my country alone, because my country stands for fairness, tolerance, kindness and compassion, and I am fair fed up to my back teeth of people who constantly want to talk us down and make out we've nowt but bad history in our history, be they from thousands of miles away, or the bloke next door who's lived here for ten generations.

Do NOT spin what I say.

Now please, take your 'I know everyone's a secret BNP supporter except me, 'cos I am so damn smart and smug!' values and shove them where the sun wouldn't even want to shine, even if it could, because you are beginning to really hack me off....

I am not racist, not do I believe in 'class' which, if my memory serves me correctly, you do. I see people's souls, not their colours or backgrounds..and I respect their voices rather than their silences...I also fully support the new Fatwa against terrorists who are using Allah's name...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:15 PM

"Lox...who has views like the BNP in here? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for 'foreigners'? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for folks with different colour skin?"

Actually, the BNP deny that they hate foreigners and they also deny hating people with different coloured skin.

They do misrepresent moslems and express the view that "if they don't lke it here they should leave".

So far that sounds pretty similar to what you've written in this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:16 PM

I like to think so, Les, but the argument was not about should it or should it not happen, it was about the bigotry behind some assertions that a lot of innocent people ought to carry the shame and guilt of those cranks. That was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM

Well thank goodness for that Roysten.

I bet if we stopped having a go at each other, most people would vote NO

Or am I wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:28 PM

Well the decision is taken out of our hands - it is not going ahead.

But if there were a referendum I would vote "NO". I have never advocated unbridled free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM

GUEST
You are not allowed to vote. So not counted.

So its still one NO

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:03 PM

I agree Villan, It's time to close this thread. It has become sad and sore. I vote NO. Regarding Lizzie Cornish, I vote YES. She took a stand and fought her corner well. I agree with everything she said. Why should people have to explain themselves for being British and proud ?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 03:57 PM

This is all so childish. Get a knicker grip folks.

Maybe there should be a vote to say Yes that the protest should go ahead versus No it shouldn't.

And when thats done shut the thread down.

Whats the point of Mudcatters slagging each other off. I thought we were meant to be friends. :-)

So My vote is NO

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM

If a certain name is out of bounds, how about Beth ? Betty ?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

I seem to remember a couple of things I posted earlier

1. That Lizzie would predictably accuse me of following her around. In fact anyone who reads what I have said will see that my first post was nothing whatsoever to do with Lizzie and later I only posted in response to a story about muslim churches and a mosque that she posted that was patently untrue.

2. That she had a history of contradicting herself. However 20 minutes is a new record.

Well done Lizzie!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:58 PM

But Liz - Lizzie is not even your real name is it? Why would the diminutive bit of a made up name upset you? And a pound to a penny you will be back!

DeG

Who is a David but the el Gnomo bit is made up. Everyne who matters knows it was originaly Polakow, is now Polshaw and I don't get the least bit up upset at any variation:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

"We have had sensible discussions, Liz, so I do know that you are capable of rational thought and some very kind thoughts. What happens? Is it a disorder of some sort? Medication? What is the trigger? I would love to know."

Seems I am capable of far kinder thoughts than you.


No, I just felt that this thread spiralling into Israel and Palestine would be pretty pointless, but you're right...keep it open and then you, Dave...and folks like you, can use the name you know upsets me, so you can get your spiteful kicks out of it.

All you need to know is the one person who is allowed to call me that is a person who would never dream of hurting me, ridiculing me, verbally abusing me, or calling me a racist.

You carry on with your spite though, don't let me stop your enjoyment.

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

So you can then go off on one about how the Mudcat censors your threads? Were you not, only a few posts back, telling Joe to take no notice of the ones who were suggesting that he should take some sort of action? Now you are doing exactly the same thing.

You realy deserve a prize, Liz, and don't you wish you hadn't told someone not to call you that now? Start a thread. Loose the point. Go off on a tangent. loose that point. Realise you were wrong in the first place. Go off on a rant about how everyone is against you. Change the subject seventeen times. Rant about how the Mudcat and everyone else in the world is wrong. Attempt to prove the point by getting yourself censured. And so it goes in every single bloody thread!

We have had sensible discussions, Liz, so I do know that you are capable of rational thought and some very kind thoughts. What happens? Is it a disorder of some sort? Medication? What is the trigger? I would love to know.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

"When challenged to provide three examples of deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults......................... "

There's no need. Folks can just click on your name and read post after post after post of obsessiveness, Dave. It's that simple.


You know something, Carol....I ain't getting into yet more obsessiveness..Really, it's OK, you go ahead and say whatever you want about me. It'll be far easier than "You said, I said, you said' all the time...and as you, and a few others have it in your dear little heads that I'm racist, and are determined to prove it, I'll leave you all to it.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread should now be closed..and as I started this thread, I think I'm at liberty to request that.

The topic for which it was started has had the approriate ending and the march at Wootton Bassett has now been stopped, the people behind it being investigated for terrorist propaganda on their site and in other things they have written...and most importantly, the people of Wootton Bassett and the families of the soldiers concerned have been spared yet more grief.

Also, the Far Right has been denied an opportunity which I am sure will have upset them a great deal.

So, all in all, a good result all round.



Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:26 PM

I remind you of your original comment bringing Jews into the equation:

And I have posted many links to wonderful things said by Israeli Jews and groups made up of Muslims AND Jews who are all working for peace in Israel, so I'm sorry, but I take umbridge at your remarks there because you ignored those posts, as you have a very different view of Israel to me.

It's not about Jews, and never has been. Not only have I never framed the issue as being about Jews, I have consistently maintained that it is not about Jews. It is about governments. In the case of Israel, it is about an imperialist, colonialist, largely European government that is committing crimes against an indigenous population. Whether or not that government is Jewish is totally irrelevant. And that's also how it should be with Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:18 PM

I am very, very surprised that you would conflate the use of the term "government of Israel" with "Jew", Lizzie. There is a vast difference between the government of Israel and Jews, just as there is a vast difference between al Qaeda and Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:17 PM

All richly deserved, actually, after many deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults from you.

When challenged to provide three examples of deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults.........................

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:06 PM

Eh?

but when we used to stand up for Israel, you said they were committing genocide on Palestine...

There are reams of posts from you about that, Carol...masses of heated arguments too.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:38 PM

...and I have on numerous occasions, said that the Jews who are doing this work (and I have said that they are working very hard and making enormous sacrifices), have my, and deserve our, eternal gratitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM

No, Carol, you didn't criticise me, you simply ignored the facts and carried on posting about how wrong Israel was/is and how terrible the Palestinian problems were/are.

Lizzie, I am beginning to come to the conclusion that you can't tell the difference between the truth and a lie. The vast majority of my posts on the subject of Palestine/Israel are either about the wonderful things Jews and Israeli Jews are doing to help promote freedom for Palestinians, or they are written by Jews who are trying to help promote freedom for Palestinians. The fact that you have chosen to ignore this also, shows that you are eager to paint me in the worst possible light, and you are willing to lie to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM

Carol, that letter, and idea, from Canada's Imam Soharwardy is something wildly different...and wonderful.

You know it, I know it.

No, Lizzie. You are entirely wrong about that. It is not different or new. Muslim leaders have been doing things like that for a very long time. I have provided many links to them doing it. If you choose to ignore what they've been doing for a long time, that is proof of your need paint Muslims in the worst possible light.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM

No, Carol, you didn't criticise me, you simply ignored the facts and carried on posting about how wrong Israel was/is and how terrible the Palestinian problems were/are.

There are two sides to everything...and just as Dave now gets short shrift from me, because of his obsessive undermining of nearly all that I say, so Palestine is suffering the consequences of years of Israel suffering at the hands of terrorists...

Excuse me now, but I'm off to post Imam Soharwardy's letter to a few people and do my bit to help him spread the word..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Carol, that letter, and idea, from Canada's Imam Soharwardy is something wildly different...and wonderful.

You know it, I know it.



Lox...who has views like the BNP in here? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for 'foreigners'? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for folks with different colour skin?

Nope, I've merely said love us or leave us...over and over...and that goes for anyone who wants to cause trouble in my country, or blow up any of my fellow countrymen (of any colour or religion) or those around the world. Evil people can bugger off...and that is NOT racist, for heaven's sake.

May I politely suggest you grow up and stop throwing the racist word around willynilly.

I loathed the IRA scum who caused such terrible suffering with their intense, obsessive hatreds...and I deeply admired the Irish who went on marches for Peace...particularly the Irish women who tried so hard to stop the bombers and the hatred.

No-one has the right to bring terror to the world in the way that is now happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM

And I have posted many links to wonderful things said by Israeli Jews and groups made up of Muslims AND Jews who are all working for peace in Israel, so I'm sorry, but I take umbridge at your remarks there because you ignored those posts, as you have a very different view of Israel to me.


What are you suggesting here, Lizzie? Are you saying that I have cricized you for not acknowledging the good things that are being done by many Israeli Jews to help bring about peace in Israel? If that is what you are suggesting, please provide some evidence of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:56 AM

"The good voices have not been quiet."

Their leaders have, Carol...and it is the leaders who will be heard the loudest..

No, their leaders have not, Lizzie. But you and most of the rest of the people who are so eager to paint Muslims in the worst possible light have totally ignored them when they have spoken out, many, many, many times in the past. As I said before, I have for years been posting links here in the Mudcat to Muslims, most especially Muslim leaders, speaking out against Muslim extremism.