What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 07:33 PM

If there were no singer/songwriters, y'all'd have to find something else to do with your lives...I mean, songs have to be WRITTEN to be SUNG!

Think about it!

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:03 AM

Not easy to guess what makes the difference between a S/S I enjoy to listen to and a S/S I run away from. In my experience, a good S/S is able to (and mostly does) write about experiences and feelings of others, that have been told to him/her that s/he has read about and not only about personal feelings. The basic ability is being able to listen and to feel with someone else. In a pair of words it's the difference between passion and compassion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 10:36 AM

Barry, you write wonderful songs, with nary a navel in sight. (Barry is likely to sing one of his compositions with no explanation of where it came from. And, at least in the case of Ida Lewis - they can sound darned traditional.

One thing that burns my butt (along with a flame about 3 feet high) is a 20-something giving a musical account of the hard times they've seen, the trouble they've known as viewed by someone who has been granted insight above and beyond that of mere mortals. Other than 'preachy songs,' this never bothered me when I was 20-something. Even now, these songs wouldn't be so bad if the songwriters wrote about their experiences rather than their feelings. There's room in my heart for songs by anyone about interesting people and events.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 10:22 AM

I have to agree with the complaint of 'abodhranplayer' who says.
"they've made it possible to attend a folk music event without hearing any actual folk music."

It's very annoying to attend a folk concert and find it's only a couple of Dylanclones singing their own, very forgettable songs.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 07:58 AM

Dear Grandpa Fogey,

I was OK with my basically benign post on this thread until Brother Fielding brought up "Omphaloscopy." At that point I began having some concern. When you brought up the possibility of contagion, I began to worry excessively. Even worse, I began to fear that treatment might somehow involve an asssortment of of probes and hoses and lying butts-out on an uncomfortable table, much like a lower G.I. Having experienced two of those on the same day, I would like to withdraw my initial post. Thank you for bringing these facts to my attention.

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Stewie
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 07:23 AM

I did not intend to contribute to this thread, but I am impelled by the throwaway idiocy of the last posting. I am not a singer, nor a songwriter, nor a musician, but I am a record collector of long standing and a lover of good music. In my collection, I have dozens and dozens of albums by fine songwriters who sing their own material and who have given me endless pleasure. In addition to the Stan Rogers, Archie Fishers, Gordon Boks and others mentioned above, these include John Gorka, Richard Shindell, Leonard Cohen, John Prine, Nanci Griffith, Fred Neil, Billy Joe Shaver, Terry Allen, Butch Hancock, Jimmy Dale Gilmore, Kate Wolf, Jim Ringer, James McMurtry, David Massengill, John Tams, Tom Russell, Ian Tyson, Mark Germino, Bob Neuwirth, Dick Feller, Mary McCaslin, Tom Rush, James Talley, Steve Young, Steve Earle, Jesse Winchester, Phil Ochs, Claire Lynch etc etc. As Frank said above, what matters is the quality of the music.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: dwditty
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 05:41 AM

I have nothing against S/Ss, I just don't want to hear them. As someone once stated in a thread about the Indigo Girls, "It sounds like they're singing their diaries." Usually the topic just doesn't grab me. Couple this with the fact the the seemingly random words are sung to seemingly random notes accompanied by seemingly random chords, and you get a song that is totally forgettable.

Other than that, ther is just no groove.

DWditty

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 04:16 AM

Two pathologists were in a mortuary in a hospital one day.
On the slab lay a naked man.
The first pathologist is examining the body "...light contusions to the left side of...." etc., when all of a sudden he sees this plug shoved up yer man's arse.
Said pathologist (that's good training for the fingers. pathologist, pathologist, path...), ah what the heck, where was I.
Yes, said pathologist (did ye like that), pulls said plug out of said arse.
"On the road again.... I'm so glad I'm on the road again....."
The second he puts the plug into yer man's bum again, the music stops.
C'mere, says yer man and listen to this.
Enter pathologist number two. Stage right. See him over there?
"Wha'" Plug, hand, bum, pull, ".....on the road again.....I'm so glad I'm on the roadd agai...."
"So what," says pathologist number two, "any asshole can sing country"

Love Ya...
Brendy, in one of his strange moods

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 12:21 AM

Well, gawddam, Barry! Smart kids ya got there, when are ya gonna share wid da resta us? Love your turns of phrase!

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 11:32 PM

Funny, I went to Passim's 2 nights ago to see an old friend that does the recording there. 54 S/S signed up, some were just ok some just awful, most were fairly young , maybe the average around 20-25.Alot of what I heard was "this is for anyone whose had to make a tough choice, got their heart broken, wanted to get laid & couldn't make it happen in a women's prison with a fist full of pardons". A few seemed to be on their way to being pretty good but I think on the whole most were more important than the song. I felt that their experience was supposed to be unique & that it's their job to make you understand where they're coming from so that you can see that unbefore, unseen similar trait in one's own self. Puke! Now on the other there have been a couple of traveling performing S/S as well as some locals come to our local singers session ( Kat Egalston (sp?), Debra Cowen & Maggie Crystal are a few) & they were just great. They did traditional as well as their own stuff & knocked the socks off those listening. I can't begin to guess what makes the difference, being close to the type of music you write/sing, maybe their maturity maybe as alot of S/S get on they either find they've got it & keep going or they haven't got & drop it. In the end I find that for myself there are few that I'd consider to be a good few cuts above the rest. It's ironic, over 30 yrs ago I gave up writing poetry & was told I was pretty good (by my mother, does that count) & I recently had to join a 12 step program because I fell off the wagon picked that pen back up & now my kids wouldn't let me come home till I went to a meeting of my peirs (the other reason I went to Passim's) & spout my tale of woe. I have the luck to sing with 2 other guys that I consider to be great songwriters but you'd find that they sing other people's songs or the old songs far more often than they'd sing their own. Barry, who if any of you ever catch navel gazing feel free to shoot on sight.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:33 PM

More clarification: my bro's songs are NOT about him, which is a wonder! They are mostly love songs and a couple of ballad-like ones. Really quite beautiful.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:21 PM

C'mon, Rick. You should remember that I'm the guy who wrote "Sumer is icumen in." (And I can't even spell it!) I'd have written about Eve, too, but Adam was jealous back then.

Fogier than ever.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:17 PM

Right on, Paul! My thoughts exactly!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Paul G.
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:15 PM

Yikes...

I'm a singer. I'm a songwriter. Max and Bert have played me on Mudcat Radio and the response has been pretty good. I like some of the popular "contemorary folk" singer/songwriters (Dar Williams, David Wilcox, Richard Shindell, Lucy Kaplansky) for their energy and inventiveness. I love much of the traditional "old folk" and feel particularly connected to Celtic tunes. Bottom line for me is that I like what I like and I write what the muse blesses me with. What I refuse to do is reject ANY music because of a genre label...I'll reject some stuff because its just bad (bad rock, bad classical, bad country, bad hip hop, bad folk, bad singer/songwriters). And I'll be the first to admit there are a lot of bad SSW's...those trying to emulate their favorite pseudo acoustic rock teen star of the month on open mic nights and the diary whiners who play the no-pay gigs at Barnes and Noble. I just don't listen to what I don't like, but I don't condemn it either. God, that was a ramble....

Paul G.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From:
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 08:24 PM

Sorry about getting confused there in that message. I kept saying "people", not getting enough specific about which was which. Hope you can read though it and make sense of it all.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From:
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 08:21 PM

1 - I am NOT a singer OR a songwriter.
2 - I know a few of the "folk" singers who also write songs. AND sing their own material.

That being said, these people usually ARE of the type who KNOW and sing the traditional songs. They are also people who have been brought up ON the Folk Music Tradition. Learning the songs from earlier performers (whether at their knees or on recording is immaterial).
For instance, would they complain about people like Ewan McColl, Stan Rogers, Archie Fisher, Tom Lewis or Dougie MacLean? These people are all among those who have their reperitoire of traditional songs, as well as new material they wrote themselves.

In a case of two of the singer/songwriters I encounter in the Halifax area, they write great songs, don't get the recognition they deserve, yet sing and write them any way!

The singer/songwriter of today will be, if they are good, the anonymous and forgotten writer of the folk song of a hundred years from now. I think we NEED to be able to hear these people.
I understand that some of these people write dreck, but EVERYONE knows Sturgeon's Law!

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 07:47 PM

Sandy and Art, you've always been two of my favourite singer-songwriters. Now which one of you wrote "Eve Of Destruction"? and which one wrote "In the Year 2525"?
Rick (with stir-stick)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 07:13 PM

I'm going to join Art on the sidelines of this one. Omphaloscopy may be a contagious condition.

Sandy (folk fogey)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: JR
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 07:00 PM

IMO theres nothing wrong with s/sw's. If a song happens you just really have to write it down, & how ya gonna know if it's any good till you sing it for a few folks. There will be a bunch of folks that don't like em, but that's just their opinion, and I refuse to give over my my enjoyment of music to someone else's opinion.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From:
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 06:36 PM

we have always had singer/songwriters....if we are going to have songs, we NEED someone to make songs. However, 100, 200, 300 years ago, they didn't have press agents, MP3s, demo CDs, TV programs, etc. They had to sing them, let them be RE-sung by others who liked them, and the good ones...and a 'few' of the bad ones were remembered and passed on. Almost NO one made a living writing & singing the songs that now make up a large part of the database.

Now, however, there are $$$$ to be made, or at least a bit of ego to be stroked by turning out volume and turning it over to the publicity machines! And why shouldn't theY? There is NO law against writing and singing songs you like...I only object to what they call it...*smile*...

I DO hope that the good songwriters get heard, whether or not they conform to my 'tastes'...and that the BAD ones learn as gently as possible that they perhaps don't have the muse.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: astupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybetter
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 05:50 PM

I think there are some great S/SWs out there who are S/SWs by choice, and there are some failed rock&rollers who picked up an acoustic guitar, and headed off to the local coffee shop. There are some who can make you remember places from their childhood, and make their experinces real to you. But not many. Loved the puppy joke! I guess if I had to put a definitive answer on "what's wrong with S/SWs", it would be that as a genre they've made it possible to attend a folk music event without hearing any actual folk music. Also, the label "folk music" has picked up such a stigma, that many will never get to experience some wonderful music, because they've heard "Puff the Magic Dragon" and they didn't like it. Sort of like what "Danny Boy" did to the label "Irish Music" but on a larger scale.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 05:13 PM

Mudjack, do you think as I do that the S/S has become a kind of cliche? An image rather than a viable musical or lyrical act? Perhaps the label should be thrown aside.

Some of the key elements of songwriting that I look for are: 1. Fresh images 2. A cohesive story line 3. Specific descriptions rather than generalized emotions with sophmoric exhortations and philsophical platitudes 4. A sense of style 5. A focus that doesn't stray from the origianl path of the song 6. Elements of good lyric writing such as the use of intelligent rhyme schemes, contrast (from verse to chorus) singable lyrics that don't sound forced or harsh unless intended for that purpose 7. A natural wedding between the lyric and the melody 8. An interesting tune..it doesn't have to be complicated.............And the thing I don't like in a song is one that tries to insult my intelligence by teaching me how to behave, believe or to feel or call me or any other person names. I also don't like egocentric songs that exalt the emotions of the songwriter who talks about themselves and what they think and believe as if it's the most important event that ever took place.

I think there are some great songwriters out there today. Many of them can sing their own songs well. In some cases, though, others who are great performers and not songwriters can sing them better.

Frank

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 04:56 PM

Many of you are, undoubtedly, quite glad that I, for a slew of reasons, motivations and incentives, none of which I wish to disclose here or elsewhere, would rather not post in this good thread. That said, see ya all later somewhere else.

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 04:56 PM

I'd say Stan Rogers was a singer songwriter in the folk tradition. He wrote and performed a lot of songs that people not only wanted to listen to, but sing. You're right that it's all a matter of taste. At the bottom of it all, there are songwriters who write songs I like, those who write songs I don't, and some who write both. And whether I like a song or not may just depend on what mood I'm in that day. True story - Michael Cooney once closed a festival with Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah." The lyrics are here, (But honestly, they aren't the way I remember them. I remember a verse with something about chord progression. Ach-maybe I have the wrong song entirely.) Anyhow, I remember thinking how someone had been very clever at writing silly convoluted lyrics that sounded so much like Cohen's style. I eventually learned the truth, and I like the song a lot, even if it's the perfect example of what I often don't like. Go figure...

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 04:47 PM

I used to try to write songs that "weren't" whiny, but since Aine has been collecting "Whiny titty babies" I'm thinking about changing my style.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 04:41 PM

I would probably consider myself a singer/songwriter. After all, I sing, and I write songs. I'm probably not a singer/songwriter in the commercial sense of the word. I don't write intentionally write music with commercial appeal--I write songs for myself. I'm writing as many as possible now, just stovkpiling them (I've got over 50) for that day in the future when I can get together with some people, and arrange them for a traditional band. Right now, my songs are mostly all chords and lyrics, but one day when I have time I'm going to create the fills, intros, bridges, and codas that I love so much, to the pieces. In the meantime, I sing traditional & contemporary Celtic, as well as popular music that appeals to me. As a result of this, my music has been influenced by commercially appealing music (Beatles, ELO, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Bad Examples, Jim Croce, America...) and so my music ends up being personal as well as appealing to the public. My friend, who is a traditional clairsach player from Scotland, says I have a good mind for writing catchy songs. I know I've written something good if I find it catchy, but usually have no care if anyone else does. I don't know...BTW I don't sing whiny songs about my personal life either. Almost all my music is either a love song, a war song, or a historical lament. So now!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rana
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 04:22 PM

There's good singer-songwriters, indifferent singer song-writers, bad singer-songwriters. Likewise, there's good folksingers, bad folksingers, boring folksingers. But then one person's meat (veggie?) is another person's poison. There have been some "folk" singers I've seen that most of the audience have loved but I've been bored stiff. There are singer-songwriters I really like that others won't give the time of day. Then again, there are SSWs who seem to also carry the "folk" label, while others don't - Is Stan Rogers a folkie or a singer-songwriter?

The bottom line is that it all depends on ones taste.

Rana

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Gary T
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 03:27 PM

I think some of the problems mentioned come from a distorted perspective of the song. We all have personal criteria for what songs we want to sing, and choose accordingly. I believe some singer/sonwriters short-circuit their normal criteria when it's a song they wrote themselves. In other words, if someone else had written a poor song, they would instantly know to let it die a natural death. But when they write one themselves, it may not be possible to "see with the same eyes" one normally uses to evaluate songs. "Oh would a gift the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us." (Or something like that--Robert Burns, I believe.)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Mudjack
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 02:10 PM

Thank you Frank....A good song will withstand the test of time.
I really like S/S's but their songs do wear me down fast and I tire easy at the emotional inner feelings they are always expressing.
But, still have to respect the artistic talent of anyone who can express anything with words and music.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 02:00 PM

I have a friend who said once that many good rock bands have foundered on the need to write their own material. There is some truth in that. There are good, even excellent, musicians who aren't great songwriters, and know it, but the market urge for novelty can leave them behind in favour of somebody who makes up in nerve what they lack in talent. Is that too cruel? Another friend also pointed out that although many singer/songwriters like to think that they are expanding the boundaries of song form they mostly fall into very similar patterns. I would go on from that and suggest, devil's advocate like, that the more knowledgable ones who can see the patterns are the ones who then change the patterns and create new forms. For every good songwriter there are hundreds of mediocre to lousy ones who are mimicking the good stuff. If it gives them pleasure that's fine, I'll just pay little attention until something catches my interest.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:34 PM

Fortunato, that's a beautiful distinction between the terms. I think that's the way I've viewed it without actually having put it into words.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Fortunato
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:19 PM

Well the truth is,IMHO, 'round our way if they could sing and play well enough to garner an audience then they'd be a performer who does original material. If they could write songs memorable enough to be performed by others then they'd be a songwriter. A singer/songwriter is usually someone who isn't either. now I KNOW that's black and white and leaves out the middle but that's the reason I cringe and go elsewhere when I hear "singer/songwriter.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:05 PM

Aw geez Rick...I'm sorry man. Its obvious you were handed an entire DECK, being so many things and all of them coming with a bullseye. Very tragic. Might be a song in it........

Not a folk song of course, but, well.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:01 PM

I may be a Limey, a Singer/Songwriter, a three chord wonder and a forgetful old fart but dont ever call me an "omphaloscopist"

Bert

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 12:07 PM

Everyone who emerges from the womb is handed a card reading "you are now a member of the human race and will probably be subjected to some form of harrassment before you croak". If you're lucky enough to be white and affluent enough not to starve, then the harrassment may take the form of sarcastic jibes at where you live, (red-necks, damn Yankees,herring chokers, Okies, Geordies etc.) what you believe (holy Rollers, bleeding hearts, penny pinchers, newage airheads etc.) and if you inhabit the (debatably) broad world of folk music, you're open to "folk Nazi, three chord wonder, no talent bum, academic elitist etc. Ever since folk festivals and clubs decided to try and make money rather than celebrate tradition, singer-songwriters have been getting it in spades. The term "omphaloscopists" was coined by a friend of mine to describe navel-gazing self-absorbed songwriters. Just as my lifestyle and behaviour in many areas makes me a perfect target for zingers, when hordes of 20 year old musical poets flood the open stages with epics describing their hard times and love lives...well,..sometimes it looks like they've got targets painted on their guitars.
I KNOW it's not nice to put folks down (even with humour) but those who claim NEVER to do it, probably are just as guilty..they just don't notice they're doing it.
Rick (who's slung out a few slings and arrows in his day..and been on the receiving end!)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 11:51 AM

Most of its been said by RiB, Steve, Vix, Frank and radriano....And Steve, what little I've heard from you sister, I just LOVE......its got that "sound." Beautiful voice. And I think that's the thing too. There are "sounds" I like and "sounds" I don't. I think that's where the term "folk-like" fits. It sounds traditional and folky or whatever and is true to the particular "sound" of that genre, be it Irish, Appalachian, Western, or whatever. Fortunately, at least to my ear, the whiners are easy to pick out and I avoid the "navel contemplation" types at all costs.

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 11:29 AM

You most certainly did add to the discussion. Love the joke and I agree with a lot of what you say. Thanks.

Just a note of calrification re' my bro. He never sang his own songs; I did, as well as other singers. He did and does play his own classical piano works.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: radriano
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 11:21 AM

Ever heard the joke: What's the difference between a singer/songwriter and a puppy? Answer: The puppy eventually stops whining.

My take on the singer/songwriter issue is that it is not a simple black and white situation. Obviously there are excellent singer/songwriters out there but some of them are so wrapped up in themselves that it makes them uncomfortable to listen to. Some of them try hard to be unique but end up uniquely boring.

The reason traditional music is so good is the old folk process. Every song had an author at some point but as it passes from person to person and gets changed here and there the end result is the best of the best, the survival of the fittest, so to speak.

Of course, the other side of the coin is that we envy the singer/songwriter because we wish we could write songs too. And, I suppose, the process of learning to write music means that some of your creations will be less than perfect, if not downright awful.

I also feel that, especially here in the States, there is too much focus on the individual. Everyone wants to be uniquely different and there is sometimes little attention payed to tradition. I see that sometimes in Irish instrumental music, for example. Some Americans who compose Irish music use the wierdest progressions and note movements in an attempt to be different instead of writing within the tradition. I'm not saying that new is bad but there's a range of what works and what doesn't.

Oh, well, enough of my ramblings. I hope I've added something to this discussion.

Regards to all,
radriano

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 10:18 AM

I believe that Singer/Songwriter is a record company term. The music business (record companies) found out some time ago that they could make more money opening ancillary publishing houses and receiving royalties without having to pay other publishers who owned populzr songs. If the artist did in-house songs and put the material into their firm, recording companies could make enough money to keep them afloat. This spawned the Singer/Songwriter.

I believe that there is not really a Singer/Songwriter but a good song. The artist may or may not sing them. I don't care who wrote them, personally. If a song is good, it will live on (have legs) regardless of who wrote it. Todays writers are not much different than writers of yesterday in that there are many forgettable songs from the past as well as there are today. The image of the Singer/Songwriter is an outgrowth of the music business and it started in the sixties and seventies with the likes of Joni Mitchell, Dylan, Carly Simon, James Taylor and others. Some of their work will endure. My favorite songwriters could be called Singer/Songwriters by the music industry because they sang the songs they wrote professionally. Tom Lehrer, Woody Guthrie, Irving Berlin, Tom Paxton, Jean Ritchie, Jimmy Driftwood, Bob Miller, and all before Dylan was on the scene.

There is nothing wrong with Singer/Songwriters as an image or genre. But within it includes the writign of songs that will endure and those that won't.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 10:09 AM

Amen Bert, Amen. That's probably why I rarely turn on my radio these days.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 10:07 AM

You only have to turn on the radio to know that a S/Ser doesn't have to be good to make a living out of it. All that is needed is a good manager and a good agent or two.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:59 AM

Thanks, everyone. That does explain a lot. Vixen thanks for explaining VicTim's take on things and thanks to you, Roger, too.

Having been a bit isolated in the *classical* world while promoting my brother's works, I'd never heard such things. When we produced concerts with his songs included, I just expected people to love them, which they did. He wrote them to hopefully make a living from, which he hasn't for a lot of reasons, including, imho, like Roger said, needing more than just talent; there has to be some business acumen, too, and in our case, there needed to be more cash flow to produce things.

Since coming to the Cat, as I've explained elsewhere, I've learned a lot about the "folk" process and the free give and take of things. Now, I am going to put my foot in it. While I understand all of that, I still do not find fault with someone wanting to make a good living off of their music/songwriting, etc. as long as it is not the crap that many of you speak of. There, I feel better.:-)

Thanks, as always, Mudcatters, you are a great bunch!

kat

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:59 AM

Sorry, the post above was mine.

Steve

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From:
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:57 AM

I have some pretty strong opinions on the general dismissal of Singer/Songwriters as my sister is one. This being the case she often appears on bills with others. I think my sister is very good, but then again, I would.

Some of the others I've seen drive me crazy and I must say that it is primarily the females. They seem to be the ones most prone to singing their diaries, and quite frankly, I'm not all that interested in hearing this accompanied by the same 2 or three chords in the same tempo. (Didn't may dad used to say the same thing about Rock and Roll?)

But there are some very nice exceptions. Susan appeared on a bill with a fellow named Scott Wicken the other night. A quick visit to his Website prepared me for the worst, a singer/songwriter AND a spoken word performer. I had visions of Bongo drums, incense and finger snapping. How completety wrong you can be. His music and lyrics were extremely well crafted, he was a very good and diverse player and had a fine voice. Poetry usually sends me scrambling to the men's room, but the one he did was witty, fast paced and had excellent meter. Susan also played a festival a few years back and Norm Hacking was on the bill. I had never heard him prior to this and was very impressed.

I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't paint them all with the same brush. Let's keep our ears open, we may find something worth listening to.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:51 AM

You must admit that they are a bloody miserable crowd.

Come on S/Sers, you ARE allowed to write happy or silly or frivolous or even plain bawdy songs 'occasionally'. There isn't a law against it, it won't kill you and your listeners will actually LIKE them.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Vixen
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 08:22 AM

Dear Kat--

Wow! You asked the question in a way that didn't get everybody riled into the "what is folk?" issue! Well Done! I've gotten some answers to the questions I've had about s/s in this thread. It helps to know what specifically I should look out for. Tim and I have been using the "audience response" criterion, which seems to be the one folks advocate here. I figure if the crowd is singing along by the second chorus, the song is ok. VicTim makes "traditional, contemporary, and original music," in order not to mislead anyone. The Mudcat threads on the topic have played a very large role in developing this definition!

V

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 07:23 AM

Kat,

The label singer/songwriter covers a large coterie of performers. There are some excellent, inspiring writers who also happen to sing the songs they write. Some of them are listed above.

There is another group often described as young people singing their diary. The content of much of their writing is from personal experience. That is not so bad if the song is able to expand it to a general experience. This is where many fall short. The songs sound like the writer believes you are desparately interested in their everyday life.

U. Utah Phillips (the golden voice of the great Southwest) described these songs in this manner: The generic words say: "I am a poor boy (pain, pain, pain), travelling this wide world (pain, pain, pain), facing the world on my own (agony, agony, agony), just me and my guitar (pain, pain, pain), and I want to get laid."

The recent folk boom has led to more quantity than quality. The unfortunate fact is that talent does not necessarily insure success and, also, is not required for success. Success as a performer requires other business and planning skills that many performers do not possess or develop.

The end result is some true "no talents" amongst the crew and they are invariably the singer/songwriters not the interpreters of the "old" music.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 06:02 AM

That's probably why I stick to writing parodies and singing other people's songs... I know when I'm beat.

LTS

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 06:01 AM

Most of the ones I knew well, doing the folk circuit years ago, were all egotistical gits, some of whom couldn't actually carry a tune in a bucket, let alone write lyrics that stuck in your head.

A singer/songwriter is a person who only tells you they wrote the song after they have sung it, and then maybe only if you ask them. Sing the song, get a reaction. If it is a favourable one, admit to the song, if it is not received well, then you've chosen the wrong audience to sing it to, or it is just plain crap. Bin there, dun that.

LTS

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:50 AM

I don't listen to a lot of pop music. I don't hate it, but I like folk better. A lot of singer/songwriters are doing accoustic pop. I also think there's some resentment in regards to the term "folk" coming to mean anyone with an accoustic guitar. This isn't necessarily the fault of songwriters, but they end up taking the blame for it.

I like songs that mean something to me, and a lot of people who are called "singer/songwriters" write music that only has meaning for them. Some of it's wonderful poetry, some of it is self-indulgent navel gazing.

If we want to get picky, the list of singer/songwriters includes Pete Seeger, Ewan McColl, Woody Guthrie, Jean Ritchie, and lots of other folk heroes, even though they did/do other people's and traditional songs, too. But I've met too many people recently with an attitude of "I've written this amazingly sensitive song about ME and MY life, and I'm going to record it, make a truck load of money, and then you will all worship me." And there are far too many good songwriters we never get to hear because they aren't young or "cool" enough to be a decent commodity. I don't have anything against singer/songwriters - just the selling of them.