Mediation and its definition in folk music

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 09:33 AM

"As it is, unless songs were learned orally a singer took a tune that fitted - fact"

Anybody who has spent an afternoon looking at the history of printed songs will be able to spot the flaw in this so-called assertion of fact.

Still, we need a bit of a laugh nowadays; stuff like this brightens up a dull afternoon.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 09:22 AM

" have been interested in tunes."
Tunes have always been a moveable feast difficult to attach to one particular song or ballad
This would be much acceelerated if the literary origins therory were true
As it is, unless songs were learned orally a singer took a tune that fitted - fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 09:11 AM

"There will be those who know more than I do, but is it not suspected that Mrs Anna Gordon may have played a part in 'creating' some of the ballads that she reported and which were published by Child?"

To answer my own question: yes this has been suspected.

For those who have not heard of her, Mrs Gordon (1747-1810) was a Scottish woman, married to a professor of humanity/army chaplain/minister.   

She wrote down a lot of ballads. Some were published by Scott and Jamieson. Wiki says that 27 of the A texts in Child's EWSPB came from her.

I have come across several pieces referring to her. For example, there is a whole chapter in Fowler's Literary History of the Popular Ballad.

Controversy over how to position her has existed for a very long time, as far back as Scott and Ritson. Attempts to argue that questioning this demonstrate something contagious emanating from the 20th century work of Dave Harker would, for me, serve merely to undermine the credibility of those advancing such a view.   

However, it could be argued that she was not so much a singer as a collector. On that basis maybe a better example could be found. But on the other hand, people do refer to her 'repertoire' so it seems that she is sometimes regarded as a 'singer'.

Another problem here is that often what singers have said is presented to us in a mediated form, and sometimes by mediators who strongly hold particular ideological viewpoints about folk in general. So we get double layers of 'mediation', or, if you prefer it, 'interpretation'.

Another is that not all those seeking the views of singers have been interested in tunes. Indeed, some downplay the importance of the musical side altogether. I think this is a shame.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:28 AM

Anna Gordon was quit specific when she said that she heard her ballads as child and sang them fro memory much later
Questioning the word of a woman who has been dead for as long as she has is utterly pointless as there is no way of knowing the truth of the matter
Her ballads have accepted and sung as genuine since and nothing is served by hanging a question mark over them now - what on earth is the point of changing that now ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 02:29 AM

"How did they mediate what they chose to sing and what they actually performed and recalled and passed on to the collectors. Part of this will be their families, communities, and audiences if any."

Good question. Or maybe questions, for there is a lot in it.

Somebody told me to read Wilgus and somewhere he makes a point about collectors and researchers in the early days not being trained, which I took as implying that in the US where 'folklore' has been more of an academic subject, such training has taken place.

So maybe here we have a problem in terms of evidence, quality and quantity? Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but it is an honest point of view.

Jack's point about stuff not being 'real' outside particular contexts is a good one.

I think there may also be issues about informants actually creating stuff because somebody wants to collect it. There will be those who know more than I do, but is it not suspected that Mrs Anna Gordon may have played a part in 'creating' some of the ballads that she reported and which were published by Child?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 06:27 AM

I suggested earlier that we look at the different types of mediation and pointed out how writers mediate. The next step in the chain, leaving aside for now the printers, is perhaps the singers. How did they mediate what they chose to sing and what they actually performed and recalled and passed on to the collectors. Part of this will be their families, communities, and audiences if any.

One example: shapenote singing in Protestant America. The recordings made in traditional settings have note names in place of real words. The idea being that sacred texts should not be performed in secular contexts like a collector's recording session. The Alevi of Anatolia and the Yarsani of a bit further east have similar restrictions - psalm/hymn tunes may be performed instrumentally outside a ceremony but the texts are only performed for real.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 05:58 AM

Jim asks: "What "violent imagery" by the way?"

I honestly believe that Jim cannot even recognise it when he has written it.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 05:41 AM

"That's all it is an opinion of someone who has done the studying, research and the number crunching"

This sort of thing is why it is possible to have a discussion with Steve Gardham. I may not always agree with everything he says, but I do respect the work he has done and the spirit in which he shares his ideas with other Mudcatters.

Given the amount of provocation he is on the receiving end of, much of which I am sure is deliberate trouble-making, I feel that Steve shows admirable restraint.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 05:21 AM

What "violent imagery" by the way ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 05:19 AM

Violence is part of the history that made our songs
There can be nothing more 'violent than the unnecessary starvation of a million people and the forced emigration of a million more, but the Irish Famine produced many hundreds of Ireland's more important and long lasting songs - as a scream of protest and and a carrier of its history
Wars, being forced to resort to criminality, leading to public executions and transportation, first to America, later to Australia, is as 'violent' as it gets, yet again, they fed our song-making traditions for several centuries
Hardship, wars, mass hunger... all inspired songs - people who undergo such experiences have always felt the need to express them publicly - to record them and, if possible to change them   
That it what takes our folk songs way beyond the froth of commercially produced songs intended to divert and pacify the masses
All important art has a significance beyond entertainment - even the socially-coddled Beethoven felt the need to dedicate his Third Symphony to Napoleon because he believed his 'Rvolution' would make the world a better place - he changed his mind when the 'saviour' crowned himself 'tyrant'
You need to lift the corner of all creative art to see if there's anything underneath - there invariably is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 04:04 AM

even more important is that we sing them and pass them on.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 03:48 AM

"Twist as much as you like, Jim, but the facts remain. And the opinions."
The fact remains that we haven't a clue who made our folk songs and we probably never shall
You choose not to dispute my pointing out that not only have you attempted to claim as 'truth' that historical equivalents of today's tabloid press made them rather than the people they have always represented and have been assumed were the makers, but you have extended that claim to folk tales
Fine by me - that's a pretty strong confirmation that this is your view of the creative abilities of the rural poor - non existent both on the song and story-making front
We slug it out o that basis now we know where we stand

I choose to believe that there is enough evidence that to show that the songs were maade by land and factory workers, sailors, soldiers, transportees, recruits for wars, victims of millennia of Enclosures, forced marriages.... all covered to one degree ot another by songs that were once considered so important by those who sang them to be claimed as their own

It's often that while literacy may have been a factor, possibly in the decline of our song traditions, recreational literacy was a late-comer on the scene -
The oral learning and transmission of our songs has been recorded as existing among 'the common people' far back as the early 700s - one thousand, three hundred years ago
As I said, unless you are prepared to claim that 'ordinary' people were incapable of having made our folk songs, you have no possible grounds for claiming that they didn't - if they didn't, why didn't they - the Irish and the Scots were busy making songs for the last few centuries, at least, - why where the English so backward in coming forward on the creative front ?

I don't think you'll find too much "twisting" in that - I await your response
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 06:00 PM

Off the main topic, but possibly there are some facts involved - what is known about the 'supply chains' for the broadsides? Both on the content (songs) and distribution side. Who took what financial risks?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 05:32 PM

Twist as much as you like, Jim, but the facts remain. And the opinions.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 04:25 PM

Sorry Tim - not me
Who made our folk songs is essential to how we regard them beyond simple entertainment - if at all
As often as they are discussed, where they came from and what they represent
will remain in the forefront
We've tended to make the definition of folk song a taboo subject with, in my opinion, disastrous consequences - it's not going to happen with this one I'm afraid
I wernt to a local history class today and the subject of using local songs and old photographs - both annotated - came up as a subject for a future local exhibition - when we get our lives back (after the Dreaded Lugi Scare is over)
I'm really looking forward to moving on to that stage of our researches
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 04:17 PM

"Napoleonic songs,"
Beneath you Steve - or maybe not !
The argument has always been that the creation of these songs was a mixture of their having been made by the people and also of the professional rhymesters - and you know it - I've quoted this far more than I should have needed to

Final Song Carriers statement
"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island.
We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries."
More ducking and diving I'm afraid

When I first put that up you wrote it off as "starry-eyed naivety _ I really thought we'd moved on from there
We don't even know who wrote the Napoleonic ballads, but we know that ath the time of the Chartist protests later, industrial workers were scribbling songs by the hundreds and sending them off to the radical papers of the day, like 'Morning Star, and 'Red Dwarf' - I went through many dozens of them once   at the cost of my eyesight
, which makes it highly likely (not possible) that the hacks were borrowing stuff from people who were living the lives described so vividly

When this argument saturated, you not only presented your theory as fact - somewhat disdainfully, but you also threw in later versions for good measure with folk tales having originated in print for seasoning
This leaves the English working people as totally reliant on their 'betters' for their creative culture
That sounds like a man on a mission to me

You dismissed local poets as retired people scribbling away to fill in the empty hours till the man with the scythe comes knocking on the door - the younger ones were too busy feeding their families, according to one of your more than several excuses
You have totally ignored the FACT that the hardships of the Irish people acted as a spur to the creative song making by the rural poor, leavings as the English looking like a pretty sorry lot in comparison
I've saved a good deal of your gems but all are still searchable for those who have the time and interest
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 04:10 PM

Fine by me, Tim!

I suggested earlier that we look at the different types of mediation and pointed out how writers mediate. The next step in the chain, leaving aside for now the printers, is perhaps the singers. How did they mediate what they chose to sing and what they actually performed and recalled and passed on to the collectors. Part of this will be their families, communities, and audiences if any.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: RTim
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 03:52 PM

Some people have ALWAYS voted Labour, many others have ALWAYS voted Tory...they will Never Agree......
The subject of the origin of the songs we love is as diverse...two different schools of thought that will Never agree!
This has been discussed and abused over and over again on these pages....same old arguments by the same people are trotted out until there is a stream of abuse between normally sane people and the Mediator has to step in and stop the discussion.

It seems to me - that the time has come to agree to dis-agree and move on!
Keep performing and or writing about the music...but be civil to each other.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 03:12 PM

Yes of course, I see, all of those Napoleonic songs, they date back to Tudor times. Silly me! :)

I am well aware that the broadside writers and indeed many others were taking material from earlier versions. I have plenty of evidence that that happened and have stated so above, but the FACT still stands 90%. Yes it's possible that some of these had even earlier manifestations, but when you have studied many thousands of versions as I have looking in detail at style, phraseology, historical content, etc., well I stand by my opinion. That's all it is an opinion of someone who has done the studying, research and the number crunching. Take it or leave it! It's of little import to me. I'm happy to concur with those who have done similar research.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 02:06 PM

Every possibility Guest - in fact, given the the pressure under which the broadside hacks were forced to work in order to make a living, it's highly likely
Far quicker and easier to adapt something already in existence than burn the midnight paraffin lamps thinking up new songs to sell
The audiences weren't necessarily 'genteel' they just had to be adapted for the city dwellers
I agree Dave - I've always believed some of our best historians are local ones not working to please either publisher or general publishers
In this case, we are talking about opinions and logic - you can only talk historians if you have solid facts to deal with, otherwise you are left with snippets and common sense
The only historian, L. van Sittert I can find is an expert of prickly Pears in South Africa - don't know many songs about them
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM

Isn't it possible that those old songs were past down orally through generations and then refined, and supposedly improved, by publishers to make them more palatable to genteel folks. This new bottles for old wine approach was certainly used to kick off the post war folk boom here in the states.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM

whatever little known historians have to say on the matter

I seem to remember someone else using the argument that little known historians can be discounted. I await the claim that only eminent historians who have books on sale in mainstream bookshops should be quoted. Then I will believe that Jim has been possessed by the spirit of Hertford past...

:D

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 01:29 PM

"what seem to have originally been three separate ballads "
As we don't know when this song first emerged in Ireland we don't even know that
The crowing cock, as a symbol of the dead returning to their graves, dates back as least as far as ancient India and as we don't know which came first, the whole song or the fragments that are claimed to have been brought together, we can't even be certain of that - chicken or egg (pun intended)
There are many examples of bits of songs which took on lives of their own - Lord Gregory/'Who's going to shoe....' for instance
The folk really were a clever lot when you examine their skills close up

It seems to me sometimes that some people don't want the folk to have made our folk songs
God only knows, we have been told that they were incapable of making ballads for long enough, sespite the incaluable party played by the unlettered Travellers in keeping them alive - sans literary skills
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 01:22 PM

Fact - it is highly unlikely that.....
Fact - It is also unlikely....

If there is a degree of uncertainty or likelihood then, by definition, it is not a fact. It is an informed opinion.
This seems to reach to the core of the dilemma that I was pointing out in my previous post.

Cambridge Dictionary
Fact - something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 01:02 PM

Fact
Their first mainfestations IN Print are in now way proof that they
A were't taken from oral sources and printed
B The they hadn't existed and be remade for centuries earlier
The rest is your opinion alone and has no proof to back it up
Until we can establish that they hadn't come from the oral tradition, we will never know who made them - simple as that
As our knowledge of the oral tradition extends no further than the end of the 19th century that will probably never be established (without a time machine)
Fact - it is highly unlikely that people who could remake and sing our songs for as long as they have been doing could not have also made them
Fact - It is also unlikely that poets as inept as the broadside hacks were could possibly have made folk songs that dealt with the lives and experiences of 'ordinary'people

Once you agree that the ordinary people were skilful enough to have been capable of making our folk songs, you have to concede that they aare the most likely candidates for having don so - for a whole number of reasons - whatever little known historians have to say on the matter
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 12:52 PM

Steve quotes his "own personal belief" that The Grey Cock "was put together by a quite sophisticated hand.

Jim says this "shows a distinct lack of understanding of the creative abilities of the non sophisticated".

I think we can all agree that whoever combined what seem to have originally been three separate ballads into a single coherent whole did an excellent job.

So I can only conclude that Steve and Jim (both of whom I respect for their knowledge) have different interpretations of "sophisticated".

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 12:41 PM

In distinguishing between FACT and OPINION, Steve is demonstrating the prevailing thinking in all branches of history teaching and research. In the 1990s a number of important historians started to challenge the use of history as a nationalist tool.
Two quotes from the influential South African historian, L. van Sittert, written in 1991 demonstrate the change of thinking that the subject was undergoing. In a section of his essay called What is history? he writes:-

The tension between the elite histories of the literate professionals and the popular histories of the masses reveals “history” in all its many guises as ideology rather than fact, and always requiring critical engagement rather than mute acceptance of its claims, assertions and demands.

... and the 'critical engagement' called for evidence rather than view or opinion and the two must be clearly separated. He goes on to write:-

In the literate western tradition, up until the comparatively recent past such data was required to exist in written form to count for the purposes of historical reconstruction, but it is now widely acknowledged that oral, archaeological, linguistic and a host of other forms of data may be employed in making histories.

The debate surrounding these issues became the dominant discussion in the whole fields of researching history.
In our own little backwater, it becomes clear that the most important and influential recent book is the one by Steve Roud calling for an evidence-based approach and that evidence points towards a print-based origin for what we call traditional song - and we see this approach manifested in Steve Gardham's post above this one.
Van Sittert's call for 'critical engagement rather than mute acceptance of its claims, assertions and demands' could be interpreted for the likes of Harker to challenge in the way he did. Whether he went about this in thorough and unbiased manner is quite another matter.
I feel it is the right approach to engage written documents alongside 'oral, archaeological, linguistic and a host of other forms of data' but it seems to me that this will make it very dificult to reach a consensus.
This thread seems to be proving that.

Quotations taken from "THE MEANING AND ROLE OF HISTORY IN HUMAN DEVELOPMENT – Modern Approaches to the Teaching of History" - L.Van Sittert

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 11:43 AM

FACT: Proof in hand. Approx 90% of those songs taken down in southern England c1890 to 1920 have their earliest extant manifestation in some form of urban commercial production.

OPINION: based on 50 years studying the relationship between those songs and their different versions both from oral transmission and from print, approx.95% originated in urban commercial production.

Whether the people who produced them were 'educated' or 'sophisticated' is for somebody else to decide.

As for evidence, I have now edited 5 books of the aforementioned material with their histories that we know of all clearly mapped out. Jim is very welcome to read those notes and rip them to pieces. I won't hold my breath though. At the invitation of a fellow scholar I have been asked to produce the earliest extant version of each of the songs in the corpus mentioned above and will embark on this as soon as my current projects are complete,i.e., this year.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 08:31 AM

"For some reason he seems to stand accused of falsely attributing a number of songs 'these songs' to 'the educated'."
Steve has a history of claiming 'the folk' didn't make their own folk songs - he clims over 90% of them first appeared in print
Please try to keep up
Steve is quite vociferous in his claims - even insulting to those who disagree with him on occasions
There is no problem with anybody holding such views - it is when he presents them as 'facts' rather than "in my opinion" that the problems arise
I take the opposite view - so has the vast majority over the last century or so
If he believes this controversial theory, it is his responsibility to present far more evidence that he has so far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 07:13 AM

Steve wrote:

my own personal belief is that it was put together by a quite sophisticated hand. I'm aware that there are a couple of other Irish related pieces that marry together 2 of the ballads, but to take 3 quite autonomous ballads, albeit similar in subject, and weave them together in such a clever way, has been the work of a very creative and knowledgeable hand. First of all you have to have intimate knowledge of all 3 ballads, and then recompose them so that they run along perfectly so that it leaves the singer, without knowledge of the 3 originals, marvelling at the end product. It is undoubtedly a masterpiece.

For some reason he seems to stand accused of falsely attributing a number of songs 'these songs' to 'the educated'.

Not only does this, in my eyes, misrepresent what he said, but it is also based on an incorrect view that anything offered so far has contradicted what he says. The idea that he needs to be sure of his 'facts' is risible, since what he are offered is what for me seems certain to be a highly mediated account of what was tape recorded in parts of Ireland. That account uses terms like 'almost certainly' which is a conjecture, not a fact.

The patronising last line just ends up being risible.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 04:36 AM

Continuing where I left off to watch crap on tele (and eat):
The Grey Cock is an Irish version, as are Mrs Costello's three other ballads and it is unique.
I'm often astounded by how ready Steve and others are to attribute such wonderful songs to the educated rather than 'the folk'
The ballad reeks of folk vernacular - 'the burning Thames' being typical, in line with the popular 'hot as the hobs of hell' folk saying and a superb example of the folk belief of the pain experienced by the dead in crossing water, the motif of many Irish folk tales
It also has similarities to the bothy night visiting song, 'I'm a Rover'
The Costello family came from County Galway, an area noted for Travellers - which means they were almost certainly familiar with Traveller songs and storytelling
In North Clare, the neighbouring county, Prof. James Delargy took stories from Paddy Sherlock, Traveller storyteller whose tales had similar motifs
Not too far from Ballinasloe, in Cloonfad., we were lucky enough to meet and take stories from one of the last of the Irish 'big storytellers' Jack Flannery
We got hour-plus long stories from him, 'The Spirit Horse under the Bridge', ' John, the Prince of Galway', 'The Cloak of Darkness' (invisibility)... and half a dozen others, all full as such motifs as are to be found in 'The Grey Cock'
Jack was a ex farmer, road worker living in a labourers cottage a mile outside Cloonfad, -
Born the week the Titanic sank, he was a masterful storyteller at 'high-art level, with all the techniques of the best of them - and a preference for "the long ones"   
Before you attribute these songs to 'the educated' you really need to be sure of your facts Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 06:20 PM

Good joke-tellers don't have top explain their jokes

You;'re entitles to your opinion Steve - it shows a distinct lack of understabnnding of the creative abilities of the non sophisticated though, which doesn't surprise me
The harry Cox song is on the Lomax site - link on the Harry Cox thread
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:36 PM

500?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:20 PM

Just to clarify, the start of my last post was a joke.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:20 PM

Put together by a sophisticated hand? At this point one of Sandman's comments about intellectual wankers might be apt?

The song has been used in arguments to suggest that 'House of the Rising Sun' originated in Lowestoft. (I thought everybody knew that one!) If memory serves me aright Lomax was mixed up in this line of arguments at some point. An example of mediation perhaps?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:02 PM

Brian
Re 'Grey Cock' which is indeed very relevant to this thread whichever way you look at it; my own personal belief is that it was put together by a quite sophisticated hand. I'm aware that there are a couple of other Irish related pieces that marry together 2 of the ballads, but to take 3 quite autonomous ballads, albeit similar in subject, and weave them together in such a clever way, has been the work of a very creative and knowledgeable hand. First of all you have to have intimate knowledge of all 3 ballads, and then recompose them so that they run along perfectly so that it leaves the singer, without knowledge of the 3 originals, marvelling at the end product. It is undoubtedly a masterpiece.

With more in-depth study it might be possible to arrive at the conclusion that the triple hybrid evolved from one of the double hybrids in which case the leap is not quite as astounding.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 04:07 PM

Nice one, ABCD!
Jim,
Many thanks for the Harry Cox text. I don't think I've got that one. Is it on an accessible recording along with any others similar? The answer to your question has to be even today the use of the song would have to be severely mediated as it was then, to have any use to anyone other than a rugby team or a researcher into such material.

Brian, I thought we'd established that within our context the term was a somewhat vague umbrella term, that for more precise usage needed qualifying. Many other terms, 'folk' for instance, are wide ranging with multiple meanings and connotations, but it doesn't stop us using them. As I think I've established above there are many different types of mediation within our sphere of interest. It's a relatively simple job just to state which types of mediation we are referring to, and who is doing the mediating.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:42 PM

It doesn't appear in Harker's index though it did several times in One For the Money
If it appears in the text I can't remember it - mush of what harker had to sy was perjuratibe

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:42 PM

Let's just all wait and see if the term "stands the test of Time" and enters the tradition....

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:22 PM

"It has been suggested that the term 'mediation' is meaningless or useless because it is possible to distinguish a many different sorts of mediation."

Assuming this comment refers to my posts, it doesn't cover my range of objections to the term.

1. According to its general definition it's a broad, nonspecific term which can describe a considerable range of transactions.

2. Its usage in Fakesong is almost always pejorative, so to apply it in a wider context risks appearing condemnatory, whether or not this is the intention. In the present discussion there have been examples of finger-pointing and cries of 'mediator!' reminiscent of a 17th century witchfinder.

3. Its usage in Fakesong is also indiscriminate, involving its application to a variety of practices that are not comparable. Thus even in this narrow context it still requires additional qualification. This can lead (again, there are examples in the present discussion) of angels-on-a-pinhead arguments about whether a given practice can be described as 'mediation' or not.

4. It simply hasn't caught on. The literature, both ante- and post- Fakesong makes little or no use of it. For instance, I've recently been looking at the collection of essays entitled 'Folksong: Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation' (2004, eds. Russell and Atkinson) and, although several articles cover the work of collectors, the word 'mediation' scarcely appears, with the exception of David Atkinson's essay 'Revival: Genuine or Spurious', in which it is used once, in speech marks, and then rejected. Martin Graebe's biography of Baring-Gould devotes plenty of space to the Reverend's (somewhat notorious) editorial practices, but again doesn't refer at all to 'mediation'. It seems that it's only in this little corner of Mudcat that anyone is bothering with it at all.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 11:26 AM

This is an example of a song recorded originally by R J Moeran who sent it to an early Folk Song Journal (singer unidentified)
Only the tune was published with a note that the words were too indecent to include
In the prtaining circumstances what should have happened to the song?
Jim Carroll

Girl of Lowestoft or The Hole in the Wall sung by Harry Cox, circa 1950 (rec by Alan Lomax)
If you go To Lowestoft
And ask for the Hole in the Wall
There you’ll find Polly Armstrong
She ain’t got a hole at all

She was a rum one, she was a funny one,
She was a rum one O

At last I found her hole
‘Twas underneath her frock
If you gave me all the world I coldn’t find my cock
She was a rum one etc

At las I found my cock,
My cock was in her hand
And if you gave me all the world
I couldn’t get him to stand
She was….

At last I got him up,
As stiff as a wooden pin
If you gave me all the world
I couldn’t get him in
She was….

At last I got him in
And wriggled him about
If you gave me all the world
I couldn’t get him out
She was….

At last I got him out, he was so stiff and sore,
If you gave me all the world   
I’ll never touch another whore
She was

Alternative first verse
If you go to Lowestoft
Sand ask fro the Rising Sun
It's there you’ll find two old whores
And my old woman is one

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 06:39 AM

On disagreements within the world of folk experts, a whole section of Wilgus is about 'ballad wars'. And the book is full of cautions and areas where there have been different views. Partly what makes it interesting and I for one don't claim to have the answers.

I hope every body has a lovely day.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:31 AM

By the way
"You have not answered a single point of Pseud's correctly"
If my reply to her was incorrect- correct it
I'm tired of people alluding to my being wrong without specifying where
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:00 AM

"You have not answered a single point of Pseud's correctly and there is absolutely no aggression in his post."
Yes I have Steve - this is an old argument which concers the repertoire of one of Ireland's most important field singers, 'Tom Lenihan'
The aggression came from the suggestion that anything that Pseud doesn't wish to discuss is "off topic" - it's a constant theme of hers, even to the point of demanding that I should open a new thread at one stage - that cannot go unchecked if we are to have friendly discussions
You have yet to respond to any of my points, neither has Jag - god knows there's enough to pull down

Nit-picking slips by giants like Goldstein is easy meat for someone wishing to avoid the imprtant work they did - that's how Herker operated and it did a great deal of damage to our understanding of folk song - it helped creates the fog that now surrounds the term
That is why I keep suggesting that it is more important to discuss the repertoire than the characters of collectors which Harker chose to assassinate

Even the tunes are a bit of a red herring in all this
They were portable and quite often statched out of the air rather than be attached to single songs
This would be even more true if your 'print origins' theory was correct
'The Folk' had enough problems in reading the texts - reading tunes is still out of the reach of most of us
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 04:34 AM

Jim, once again you are way out of order. You have not answered a single point of Pseud's correctly and there is absolutely no aggression in his post. Bert made many many incorrect and misleading statements which are all well documented and as Pseud says well covered in the biography. Once again you are the BULLY!

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 04:17 AM

There is not the slightest evidnce that Lloyd's work was in any way 'flawed' - not a scrap
As a singer he, MacColl and the rest took their songs from everywhere and didn't bother too much revealing where they got them friom because, in those days, nobofy expected them to
Maccoll took songs he had heard from his family and his Sots neighbours and filled them out from published collections - he was singing them to cinema queues in the depression - before the revival was a twinkle in anybody's eye
"Going back to the topic of this thread:"
I discovered recently that Bert took many of his 'unusual' songs from collectors like Helen Harness Flanders and Edith Fowke - he described them as 'English' because many were brought to Canada and the Eastern American States by emigrants leaving Britain and Ireland in the 19th century- go do your homework before snapping at the heels of giants

As far as 'The Unfortunate rake' is concerned - this is the most travelled song in the repertoire - our exampled tend to be later ones (probably) and were still being re-created in the twentieth century, notably at during WWI about a pilot dying in the wreckage if his bi-plane
You made a stupid issue of your theory that a Clare farmer learned it from a blues singer - basically because of it's 'St James's Hospital' reference
You refused even to comment on the information provided that 'St James's Hospital' was a Charity Institution for diseased young women on the site of the later St James's Palace before the reign if Henry VIII
That's the type of thing Harker would have done   

"Going back to the topic of this thread:"
It's never been departed from and suggesting it has is being manipulative
Please stop being aggressive - doesn't help with friendly discussion
I can't see any reference to St James's Hospital in the title, yet you wax lyrical on the subject, or any you've a mind to
Please stop attempting to manipulate this discussion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

Sorry in above post should have specified that the defn mentions the attitudes and beliefs of the mediator. These are important and so often worth highlighting. And maybe this is why the concept of mediation can be useful.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:38 AM

"the tune itself then is, because it relies on the intermediary's transcription." I agree, but suggest, with respect, that to fit with the definition we have been working with fully, some comment could be made upon the approach to transcription of the transcriber. Eg for Sharp we know something about the way he tried, when faced with singers who often sang successive verses differently, to produce something representing the essence. For me, just assigning the label 'mediation' is less interesting and useful than making use of the concept to interrogate what is offered to the end user of mediated material and, ultimately, to support evaluation of that material.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:27 AM

Going back to the topic of this thread:

It has been suggested that the term 'mediation' is meaningless or useless because it is possible to distinguish a many different sorts of mediation. I think one can turn this on its head: it is because mediation occurs in so many contexts relevant to folklore that it is useful to bear in mind when encountering material from that source.

The Briggs Memorial Lecture by musician and academic Richard Jenkins that I referred to is a 'case study'. It discussed what has been written on the history of a song called 'The Streets of Loredo' or 'The Cowboy's Lament'.

This song is often said to belong to a family called 'The Unfortunate Rake'. Jenkin demonstrates that this name is the result of badly done historical research. If anything the family ought to be called 'The Unfortunate Lad', as that is the title of most of the known early (ie 19th century) variants, except for one, the earliest known variant, which was called 'The Buck's Lament' and set in Covent Garden, London.

The song is also often said to have an Irish origin. Jenkin traces this claim back to a piece written early in the 20th century (published 1911) by the amateur folklorist Phillips Barry. In that piece Barry claimed that an Irish antiquarian had made the link. Jenkin reports extensive research in the background papers of the antiquarian in question, which have been preserved. They turned up no evidence to support Barry's assertion. There is no evidence that the antiquarian in question ever mentioned a song called 'The Unfortunate Rake'. Jenkins therefore concludes that claims of an Irish origin for 'Loredo' rest on 'flimsy evidence, at best'.

The piece claimed to be an ancestor of Loredo is frequently stated to have been collected in Dublin. However, earlier pieces, going back to a collection published by PW Joyce in 1909, give Cork as the place of collection by the same collector. Jenkin traces this change of place back to a mistake in a 1955 piece by Lodewick, and shows how Goldstein repeated the mistake in liner notes to an LP featuring A L Lloyd among other people singing what purported to be versions of a song called 'The Unfortunate Rake'.

It almost goes without saying that Lloyd himself played a part in propagating this flawed historical narrative. Jenkins states that this part was played at a time when Lloyd's biographer described his attitude to historical truth as being 'cavalier'.

Jenkins concludes that this name is almost certainly wrong. He has searched everywhere for a 19th century broadside supposed to have that title and has come up with nothing but broadsides with the title 'The Unfortunate Lad'.

As Jenkins points out, dubious information about the origins of this song appear all over the internet, much of it obviously culled from the Folkways Rake LP.

This topic interests me because some friends and I also did some background research on the same topic, tracing references back through the literature, just like Jenkins did. Indeed, Jenkins cites Mudcat discussions as one source of sceptical voices relating to the folkloric narrative about the origins of the song.

Bringing things back to the point: an interesting question is whether applying the concept of 'mediation' defined in terms of the opinions, beliefs and attitudes of the mediators helps us to make sense of the way in which the narrative was constructed and disseminated over all those years. I think it can, not least in waking us up to the possibilities. So one such attitude might be a belief that certain people have done their homework properly before publishing academic-looking liner notes and magazine articles. One question might be whether Barry's high regard for Ireland as a source of music (a fully justified belief) may have swayed him in favour of finding an Irish source.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 20 - 08:00 AM

Further to Cecilia Costello
She is often heralded as a fine example of an English traditional singer - the finest to some, yet all her songs were learned from her Irish father, as was her singing style, which gives us a somewhat skewed view of 'the English repertoire
These include four rare Child Ballads, 'The Grey Cock', 'The Green Wedding (Child 221), The Cruel Mother and the controversial Jew's Daughter - all popular among Irish singers
I think it no accident that these ballads were learned in a town which was, and still is, influenced by the Traveller singing culture, due to the large annual fair which it is still noted for
Over the last three years I have reached the conclusion that there were possibly more Child ballads current in the Irish oral tradition in the latter half of the 19th into the 20th century than there were in among the English singers

It seems to me that since these discussions on Harker and mediation began there has been a great deal of ducking and diving taking place to avoid actually examining what effects the new-fangled mediation had on ou singing traditions - all that has happened is a loud trumpeting of Harker's allegations (which is all they are)

An Buachaill Caol Dubh
"and you are doing so both more eloquently"
Not sure that's true, but thanks anyway
Most of what I have to say I have acquired from the singers we met - I have never given a talk without playing their recordings and quoting what they had to say
All the albums we issued (with the exception of those few we had no control over) included singers talking as well as singing - we didn't want to present them 'just' as singers
It takes a thread like this to do that
Jim