Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: ddw Date: 18 May 00 - 12:52 AM Interesting thread. Joe, I think I have to come down on Mrr's side on the meaning of atheist — it just means "without god" as far as I've ever been able to figure out. I think his term "antitheist" is closer to describing someone who is actively negative about about god and the religious trapping mankind has built around the belief. All that said, though, I wonder if there really is such a thing as an atheist in the sense of it being a "religiously-held" belief. As Bertrand Russell and the cardinal (was it Cushing? I can't remember for sure) amply demonstrated in their famous debate, you can't PROVE the existance of god without first ASSUMING the existance of god. You also can't prove that god doesn't exist without assuming that god doesn't exist. That makes agnosticism the only position open to a thinking person — an agnostic being someone who DOESN'T KNOW if god exists. Then the relevant question becomes "Does it matter whether there is a god?" The only answer I've been able to come up with is that it doesn't, except to use it as a framework to scare people into adhering to societal rules if they're too slow to figure out for themselves that those rules — applied as evenly as possible — are what allows us to live with bunches of people without commiting or being victims of murder and mayhem. Examples of this are easily found in the 10 Commandments. I don't remember all of them offhand, but take adultry, for instance. I really can't believe that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-everything being who really gives a shit about who's doing who, but I can sure as hell believe that a lot of men will kill you in a minute if they catch you dipping your stick in THEIR PROPERTY. Same goes for "thou shalt not steal" and all the other commandments. They make sense for the peace and wellbeing of the group — no matter how narrowly or widely it's defined — but it has nothing to do with a god. Or at least it NEED NOT NECESSARILY have anything to do with a god. There are several other points in the thread I'd like to comment on, but work calls. Back later. David |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Bill D Date: 17 May 00 - 08:28 PM "We will follow Jim & Tammy Get a condo in Miami Pay no tax to Uncle Sammy... And it's good enough for me" |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Penny S. Date: 17 May 00 - 04:37 PM Passing through the Body Mind and Spirit portion of the bookshop it occurred to me to wonder - would Buddhist chants suffice? Penny |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work Date: 17 May 00 - 09:03 AM WOW what a thread! For things that we believe in that deeply, it's good to see the amount of mutual respect that keeps being stated and re-stated. I agree with teh suggestion of some of the Joe Hill songs; I haven't seen Power in the Union (which U. Utah Phillips considered Joe's best song) mentioned yet. My two favorite songs along these lines: Give me the Roses (Dick, forgive me, I didn't look to see if it's in the database) which I know from the Carter Family but also found in my Sacred Harp book under the name of "Odum" Stan Roger's Mary Ellen Carter (Rise again!) I heard an anecdote that he had deliberately written it as an allegory. I hope so; he's not around for me to ask. And to Mark and John o' Brisbane (is that anywhere near Dreams?) thanks for Old Time Religion-- you had a couple verses I've never seen before! Some that I sing that aren't in most people's collection are:
We will all chant Hare Krishna |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 May 00 - 06:53 AM "But if you are living up to your ideals - you are setting them too low."
I nominate that for the book of new Mudcat quotations that some eagle-eyed Catter ought to set up. Too good to lose.
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Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,micca at work Date: 17 May 00 - 06:34 AM For a mix of assorted "religous" and non religous "hymns" I would reccommend the recordings of fellow 'catter Animaterra.. the choir does some wonderful non "god" hymns.. ie "When the dark time ends" on there 99 winter CD... Animaterra is contactable thru' the private messages and could probably supply more info.. but the recordings are pure magic...and I couldn't reccommend them more.. |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,JulieF Date: 17 May 00 - 05:10 AM Quite often, it appears to me, that just by stating you are an athiest people consider it a affront to their own religious beliefs. I have lost track of the times that I have had the response - " but you have morals so you really are a Christian/Believer - you just don't admit it". I could not imagine an athiest being allowed to wander down the street with a plachard that states - There is no God. I have weighed up the pros and cons and decided than on balance it is much more likely that God doesn't exist. Hence - Athiest. Another reason people think that Athiests and the Athiest press are anti - religious is because some religious people can handle any critisms of their religion and more specifically any attemps to remove additional privledges that their religion has given them. (Please note I did say some - not all. You should see the feedback to the Secular web sites - among the you will fry in hell letters are well thought out and reasoned religious agruments). A good example of additional religious priveldge - is the maintaining of the places for bishops in the House of Lords. This means that I have to live my life to my own design. I would now call myself a Secular Humanist. In that I think that I should live my life with utmost consideration for other people and secular in that I have come to the conclusion that there is no external spirutal input. Needless to say I never live up to my ideals. But if you are living up to your ideals - you are setting them too low. Sorry if I sound a bit overbearing but I feel fairly strongly about this. Julie |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Stewie Date: 17 May 00 - 02:25 AM GuestPaul Burke, the song you quoted from is 'Miracles' by Jim Woodland. It was recorded by Roy Bailey on his 'Never Leave a Story Unsung' CD. Bailey noted: 'While I don't think all fairy stories are "lies", I do agree with the way the song uses the image'. Magnificent song. --Stewie. |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 00 - 02:05 AM Hey, Mrr - have your semanticist call my semanticist. When they come to an agreement on terms, we'll talk. I think Mark is right - our ideas are probably pretty much in agreement, and it's just the terms that we disagree on. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Escamillo Date: 17 May 00 - 12:32 AM Let me introduce an example of atheism which is not at all a beliefs system : that of scientists (or an important part of them). The existence or non-existence of God is a matter of fact or fantasy, and not a belief for them. Many scientists are religious,but they will never establish a base for search, in any kind of faith, be it the main religions, or mythology or paganism. This position does not qualify them for stating which beliefs are true and which are not, they simply remain neutral, and keeping an eye in facts. At the same time you will find a great, deep sense of humanism in them. (I adhere to that position as much as I try to humbly follow the philosophy of Jesus, though not in any church, but that´s a personal opinion.) Un abrazo - Andrés |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Mark Cohen Date: 17 May 00 - 12:06 AM Andres, is *that* what Carmina Burana is about??? I never knew! If only I'd known that when I saw the ballet 20 years ago with a certain young lady, it might have led to some interesting conversation... My contributions to Old Time Religion: We will worship Mother Earth In her length and breadth and girth For of Earth there is no dearth And that's good enough for me Oh I love to worship Venus There is nothing comes between us 'Cause she doesn't have a temple But she's good enough for me We will sing Gregorian chants We will sing Gregorian chants We will sing Gregorian chants We will sing Gregorian chants And one from Meryle Korn in Portland: Oh we all will worship Loki Who's the ancient god of chaos Which is why this verse doesn't rhyme or scan very well either But it's good enough for me Joe and Mrrzy, interesting discussion. I think what appears to be a disagreement is more a difference in definition (or understanding) of what each of you means by "atheism", and you're probably quite close to agreement in your basic ideas about religion itself. Or so it seems to me. (This is more thread precession than thread creep, and I'm enjoying it.) Aloha, Mark |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 May 00 - 10:33 PM Damn, this is great! Someone to talk theology (in an intelligent way) with Joe. I just sign my letters to him: Heathen (but still thinking!) |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Mrrzy Date: 16 May 00 - 10:08 PM Joe, (and this can of course wait till you have time), I wouldn't say I was trying to convince you of anything - I was just defining my terms. I'm all for semantics! First, I don't know enough about secular humanism to discuss that term, so I'll go back to atheism. Having now checked out the link to the American Atheists, I still think that even when all-out for the "total separation of government and religion" (quoting the site) - which I am all for - atheism still is a belief system that could be viewed as taking the lack of gods on faith. The atheists I know have full sets of ethics and morals, as well as mythologies for explaining natural phenomena with the occasional personification metaphor - but just no gods. I don't know what else you need for a belief system? After all, arguing with someone about their faith's variance from yours is as rude coming from one religion to another as coming from atheism to a religion, if you can call the Crusades or the anti-Infidel terrorism of the '80's rude. Oh well, I guess I am trying to convince you of something - which is that atheism is -or at least, can be- a belief in no god, rather than no belief in a god. I guess if more people used the term atheism to mean a belief system including (if you will) faith in there being no gods, maybe it would get rid of its negative overtones, in fact. Which would be a good thing for the atheists. (Thread creep alert) |
Subject: Is Atheism a belief system? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 May 00 - 04:38 PM I dunno, Mrr. It is highly unlike me to admit defeat in a debate, but I may have to, in this situation - to a point. I wish I had time to nuance my response a little more carefully, but I made the mistake of volunteering to work this week, so I suppose I'd better head off and do it. Nonetheless, I'd like to make a few points. I think it's safe to say that atheism is not a belief system, in and of itself. It is a word that describes a variety of belief systems that do not believe in a God. Secular humanism is a belief system that I think can be used to describe a lot of English-speaking atheists, although secular humanism can be either atheistic or agnostic. Sometimes, atheists join together for various purposes - usually, it seems, to oppose the imposition of religious beliefs on society (the American Atheists might be a good example). It generally seems that these atheist unions are typified by their a desire for a lack of belief, rather than a belief in anything. While their purpose may be noble (and I agree with their purposes many time), they serve primarily a negative function of the sort that does not ordinarily tend to generate hymns and inspiring songs. My point is that atheists have various systems of belief that are atheistic in nature - but that atheism is not a belief system itself. Semantics, perhaps, but it never hurts to define your terms. And yes, I think my atheist and Jewish and evangelical friends respect my liberal Catholic beliefs. They don't espouse my beliefs and they may consider me quaint and perhaps eccentric for what I believe, but they respect me for believing what I believe. I, in turn, have great respect for a number of different systems of belief; and I study other beliefs because I have much to learn from what others believe. So, Mrr, I guess I'm not quite ready to admit defeat - yet. But feel free to keep trying to convince me. -Joe Offer, off to work- |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: dick greenhaus Date: 16 May 00 - 12:16 PM In a very real sense, Joe Hill's (and other unionists') rewrites of popular hymns fit the description nicely. Preacher and the Slave. Hold the Fort. he IWW version of Onward Christian Soldiers, (all in DigiTrad). |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 16 May 00 - 10:59 AM All, thanks for the song suggestions, I especially like the one posted by John in Brisbane, even if it isn't "on point" exactly, it's great! Post more, everyone! But Joe, I feel obliged to reply to your para which I repeat here: An atheist may respect the BEHAVIORS of religious folks, by not clapping in christian churches, covering women's heads in mosques and men's heads in synagogues, not eating till after someone says Grace, and so on. But no atheist I know respects (in the sense of thinking these are as valid as one's own beliefs) the BELIEFS of religious folks, any more than espousers of Religion A respect the beliefs of followers of Religion B. If you want a term for radical rabid anti-any-religious-expression folks, use ANTITHEIST, not Atheist, as atheism is neutral in reference to theism, whereas antitheism is not. |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 16 May 00 - 08:15 AM Only remember the chorus, someone fill in the details?: I don't believe in miracles, Don't believe that's true, One life, one fight, one little dance, and that's you, I don't believe in fairy tales, don't believe in lies, You don't need to fly, just have to try, and that's all you do...
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Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,JulieF Date: 16 May 00 - 07:36 AM The song that comes to mind is RotherSingaDonSong which is a tribute to the workers of South Yorkshire sung to the tune of the hymn Jesus Christ is Risen Today. As a folk chorus we tend to sing it like a hymn with the concentina sounding a bit like an organ accompaniment. On the subject of songs for Athiests ( or secular Hummanists if you prefer). I always found it difficult when I stopped believing in God when I was about 11/12. I thought it terribly hypocritical to sing hymns in assemby. Teachers tend not to accept that you are not singing on as a matter of principal. I've got over that and tend to sing to appreciate a good tune. I also sing a weddings etc because you are then doing it for your friends. I suppose any songs that about generally looking after your fellow man are hummanist songs. What about some of Burns - A Man's a Man for all that. All the best Julie |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,franz Date: 16 May 00 - 06:36 AM I'm not sure if this is what you want, but maybe Nash's "Cathedral Song" or Randy Newman's "God Song" will do. franz |
Subject: Lyr Add: OLD TIME RELIGION (filk version) ^^^ From: John in Brisbane Date: 15 May 00 - 08:40 PM I'd have to agree with Joe. I would probably choose What A Wonderful World, but I'd be just as happy singing beautiful hymns, as I did before Easter when I sang Faure's Requiem.
There are many, many sites around with hundreds of verses to Gimme That Old Time Religion, many of them separated into various conventional creeds and paganism. Here is a very small sample:
OLD TIME RELIGION-----a filk song |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 May 00 - 08:13 PM The best modern hymns - though he, for good reasons, prefers to call them "carols" - I would say, are those made by Sydney Carter. And the interesting thing about many of them are that they take a very agnostic stance.You can read them several ways, and sing them from a range of different views about the world we live in.
For example you have Friday Morning, where the song is in the voice of one of the thieves crucified alongside Jesus:
It was on a Friday morning Or George Fox, for that matter:
With a book and a steeple |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Penny S. Date: 15 May 00 - 06:00 PM Actually, we sang them. Penny |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Penny S. Date: 15 May 00 - 05:59 PM Joe - they were the sort of atheists I was thinking of - I just couldn't imagine them singing about it. Actually, there are quite a few "hymns" in our school hymnbook which do not mention God at all, and could be seen as atheist - last week we sanf "The Ink is Black" for example. Would those do? Penny |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Joe Offer Date: 15 May 00 - 05:55 PM I think there's a negative, antireligious tone to the term "Atheism." If atheisim exists simply to deny the beliefs of those are religious, then it is a creed that essentially negative and destructive in nature. I don't think the atheists I know are like that - they're very positive, good people who just don't believe in God. They tolerate my religious beliefs quite well, and they share many ethical views with me. The idea of "secular humanism" and the practices of the ethical societies seem to typify the atheists I know. A couple types of music that might fit the description of "humanist" music are the union and civil rights songs that were fashioned from old-time gospel songs. We had quite a discussion of those songs in this thread (click). -Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Mbo Date: 15 May 00 - 05:16 PM Sorry, Wavestar...if I have heard them, I'd have probably forgotten them very soon afterward. --Mbo |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Penny S. Date: 15 May 00 - 05:11 PM All I can think of is to suggest that you find some tunes that were originally secular, but have now become known as "churchy", and then write your own words to them. I think the problem in finding them is that atheists are more likely to be diverse, and less likely to come together in bunches to sing that sort of thing than members of religious groups.What do you want to say? Our humanists in Britain are most notable for writing scathing letters to the papers slagging off the more ridiculous positions of the religious. (Church School bans Harry Potter, for example.) We seldom see what they do believe about human behaviour. Second thoughts - try the French Revolution - or other writings of that period. Penny |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 May 00 - 05:06 PM Confusing Grace, how rich, how rare Each day we live, we learn And render daily all our prayer To Whom it may Concern (Unitarian Gospel) |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,Mimosa@work Date: 15 May 00 - 05:01 PM check out "The Preacher and the Slave" in the database. i think many of the early labor movement songs might fit your description |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Escamillo Date: 15 May 00 - 04:59 PM Jed, one of the songs says (approximately) Yes I am, yes I am.. the Abbot of Cucania (a fantasy land of dissolution) and my council are that of drinkers .. and who looks for me at the Tavern in the evening will find himself naked in the morning crying loudly "Oh, Fortune !! Stupid goddess, what you've done ? Our lives you ruined ! ahh!" This would be something like a moral-free priest !:) Un abrazo - Andrés |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Jed at Work Date: 15 May 00 - 04:33 PM Godless Hymns? Sounds to me like fat-free motor oil! ;-) |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Escamillo Date: 15 May 00 - 04:30 PM The only "churchy" godless hymns I've heard (and sang) are not folk but classical, inspired in medieval (and banned) profanity : Karl Orff's CARMINA BURANA is a cantata composed in 1937 on the basis of authentic poems dealing with carnal pleasure, wine, gambling and everything known to be good in medieval times. Some of the songs and dances could be adapted to pop and result in a pleasant surprise in a folk/pop concert. The melodies are simple and beautiful. Un abrazo - Andrés |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: Wavestar Date: 15 May 00 - 04:25 PM I can't think of any church-y style songs that would promote aetheism, Mrr, but I can think of some recent popular songs that do.... Other than the screaming, shouting metal death ones, and NIN (Heresy, etc...) Sarah McLaughlin, Dear God certainly advocates atheism... I'm sure Mbo and others can nthink of more... -J |
Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: sophocleese Date: 15 May 00 - 04:10 PM Well Mrr. its not quite what you were looking for but I thought thios might interest you I lifted it from the Private Eye Online page because it was easier than blue-clicking. "The Council hereby grants permission for a weekly prayer call to be sung from the mosque of the World Islamic Mission in Oslo. The prayer call, or azan, will be allowed once every Friday, at midday, and the chant of 'God is Great' must last no longer than three minutes. "The Council also notes that a demonstration by members of the Heathen Society was held in Oslo last Saturday, protesting against the possibility that the weekly prayer call might be allowed. Therefore, in the interests of balance, permission is hereby also granted for the Heathen Society to chant 'There is no God' outside the mosque at five minutes before midday each Friday. This chant must also last no longer than three minutes. "By order, Old Town Council, Oslo." (Norway Post, 29/3/00. Spotter: Stedman)
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Subject: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 15 May 00 - 03:47 PM Tried to find any songs, preferably done in a church-y style, that are about not worshipping any gods at all. All I came up with was a very interesting thread on Music, Politics and the Mudcat, and a few mentions of atheism here and there in other threads. I know there are songs comparing gods, I liked the DoorKnockers one (I've seen it on a Tshirt), but can't find anything about not worshipping any god. Anyone know any? Also, I should mention, that I'm really looking for songs promoting, rather than against, atheism. However, anti- would be fine too. |
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