 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Justice in the USA
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: DougR Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:44 PM Fionn: Our local newspaper reported a story this morning that I'm sure will be of great interest to you. One Donald Miller is destined to die by lethan injection at out state penitentary on November 8th. He was convicted of murdering an 18 year old Tucson woman in 1993. A lawyer (public defender)who has had no official connection with the case, and therefore has no standing int he court, has asked the Arizona Supreme Court to review the case because "HE believes the courts haven't fully examined whether Miller's sentence was legally imposed." Miller wants to be executed. He has exhausted his appeals and wants no further action taken to save his life. In a telephone interview with a reporter Milller stated, "from step one, I didn't want to fight appeals. I am not guilty ...but I'd rather they execute me than continue living in prison." There is no question as to Miller's competency, and the article doesn't mention whether or not he came from a less than priviledged home. He merely accepted $50 from a friend who had impregnated the young lady, to take the lady into nearby mountains and murder her. He shot her once in the head, but she did not die. So he drove her into the desert and shot her in the head five more times until she died. He told the court that he only shot her AFTER she was dead. The man who hired him is serving a 9 year sentence. Should the lawyer continue to pursue additional appeals, or should the convicted killer be allowed to die, as is his wish? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Sorcha Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:33 PM Thank you, Little Hawk. troll, they just tried the wrong way. There is no real reason that all these issues can not be answered in a democratic society. The only answer is that the people in power do not WANT these issues answered. Violent crime in the US has decreased in a direct porportion to the increase in economic stability. Prison population has, at the same time, more than quadrupled because of the new laws regarding "illegal drug" possesion.
If we are willing to perscribe Prozac, Zoloft, Valium, Ativan, etc. for the "wealthy" who have Medical and perscription plans, would someone please tell me just why the Little Users of the same "illegal" counterparts get 20 years in prison? And seriously clog the system?
troll, I really do suspect we would be on the same side of these issues if we could talk in real time. Surely you do not really want to plan to put children yet un-concieved in prison just because they "fit the profile"?
Nah, let's work on food, housing, education, parenting, before these children are sent to prison, which is a self defeating cycle.
Just what the hell happened to Care About People? We care about all sorts of endangered species of animals--Black footed ferrets, grizzly bears, Siberian Tigers, little frogs and fishes, but just how in hell can we really CARE about anything if we don't care about what happens to our own species? I am one of the really lucky ones that has a really good Health Care Insurance plan........ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:18 PM Yeah, but in the USSR they never really tried democracy except for the most fleeting moments...the fact that they had no past democratic tradition to build on really got in their way. The other thing that got in their way was that the whole western world tried to crush them in the cradle, then isolated them like pariahs, and they retalitated by attacking the West in return and wasted their resources for 50 years in a fruitless arms race. I am not suggesting that sort of system. It would have to be done everywhere, not just in one country, and it would have to be done democratically, without suppression of people's human rights. What I am suggesting is something very similar to Star Trek Next Generation...without having to worry about Ferengi, Klingons, etc. One unified world society that shares equally and rewards initiative and accomplishment, not with money and material goods, but with promotion to more interesting and challenging roles in life. I don't know about you, but I love challenge and accomplishment, and I would spend a lot more of my energy on precisely that, if the damned money wolf was not at the door. In Cuba, right now, they have more social justice than we do in many respects...I kid you not(I've been there)...and less social justice in some other respects. I am not recommending copying their system...but to take on certain postive aspects of their system...YES! Take those (like free, modern and good medical care for everyone everywhere, including visitors) and build on it. I'm not talking about Communism. Communism is a system that thinks man DOES live by bread alone, and it makes a god out of a political party. Communism is in many respects a disaster, though it was not intended that way. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Troll Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:52 PM Seems to me that they tried something like that. Place called the USSR. It failed. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:47 PM I get you, troll, but.... If everyone had a home. If everyone had a job. If everyone had enough food on the table. If there were not a few incredibly rich, a dwindling and beleaguered middle class, and a desperate mostly hopeless lower class. If 3rd world people were not enslaved in order to fill our shopping malls. If women were not institutionally and societally oppressed in numerous ways. If men were not taught to be cut off from their softer emotions, and thus dehumanized. If there were no MONEY at all, but things were done in society to meet actual human needs rather than to make a profit for some huge company that may well be marketing something which isn't even any good for people (like cigarettes or atomic bombs or stealth bombers or soft drinks full of sugar and caffeine or junk food). If we were not spending collossal amounts of our resources in search of military supremacy, but instead securing a decent life for ALL people on this planet. If we did not proscecute drug users, but only drug marketers, and if you could secure a drug under prescription while undergoing medical help, instead of having to rob stores to support your incredibly expensive habit. If we did not simultaneously bombard young people with sexual messages constantly in the media, while telling them NOT to have sex at the same time when they are youngsters, and suppressing their every natural impulse to express that side of their nature from the earliest age right through puberty. Then I put it to you...that there would be virtually NO crime (aside from the occasional personal crime of passion), virtually NO drug addiction (which is behind a huge amount of crime), no wars, and no massive social injustice...which is itself the cause of almost all the problems you point to. It is a testament to the strength of character and courage of ordinary citizens everywhere in this bizarre society that things are not a whole lot worse than they already are, given the general insanity of our prevailing social system, which serves not humanity or nature...but money, power, and greed. And the penal system is simply a disgrace. I am quite serious. Society could be changed as I have suggested. Not easy, but it could be done by stages...if people had the courage to try it, and the imagination to grasp it. What I see out there is mostly just...monkey see, monkey do. Too bad. We are not monkeys. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Troll Date: 22 Oct 00 - 09:48 PM Don't build the prisons eh? Then what will you do with the murders, the rapists, the repeatedly violent ones? Where will you put them so they cannot harm others? There are thousands of people who grow up in broken homes, with abusive parents or alcholic parents or who live in "bad" neighborhoods and all the rest who never harm anyone, who never break the law, who are contributing members of society. Yet, as soon as someone kills someone in a holdup, we hear of his horrible childhood "well no wonder. I mean look at the dirty deal life handed him." as if to say that he should be pardoned for what he did because of his history. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? That man made a choice to commit robbery or rape. That man made a choice to carry a gun and made a choice to use it. And then, when he gets caught, its "oh, his background forced these choices on him. and "we've got to take his background into account. Mitigating circumstances... never really had a chance...etc. In the meantime a family mourns. Yes, errors are made. we must do everything in our power to see that they are NOT made. But the guilty must be made to pay for their crimes.If they do not, then there truly IS no justice. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Sorcha Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:34 PM If you lock someone up for 25 years(sic) according to spaw's 8x8 formula, and they are later found innocent, the person who is released is NOT psycholgically the person who was imprisoned. Said person is probably certifiably "crazy" and should be kept away from society by then. Wouldn't you be crazy after that long in solitary?
The problem with vengance is that the people administering it are fallible. ALL humans are fallible;it's a problem of the species, what with being able to reason.
"Vengence is Mine".........thus saith the Lord. Leave vengance to the Gods, let's work on the bottom of the problems. The US, at least, is now building prisons to house children not yet born, on the assumption that the "crime wave" will continue to rise. Why not spend the money that is being planned for prisons on "family/child related problems"? Like shooling, housing, basic food requirements, etc?
How would you feel, if you were a child, that the system has already given up on you, and is building a prison to house you just as soon as you are old enough to go there? Why NOT get what you can while you can? As soon as you can?
And while we are on the subject of "capital crimes", what about the women who are convicted of Murder 1 and sentenced to death for finally killing the man/husband who has beaten the crap out of them for years? Nearly all women in prison for murder are there for the murder of their SO that abused them for years.........with no consequenses for the male.......
(rant off) Like I said above, read "Newjack". It will give you a whole new perspective on prisons. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:06 PM Troll - You ask me what's wrong with vengeance? Everything. But I understand how you feel about it. I have a friend called "Johnny Death" (nickname) who is into vengeance, I think more than he is into anything else at all except music. His solution to every social problem involves massive retaliation and vengeance against someone. He's considerably to the right of George Wallace and/or Jesse Helms. This has not prevented me from having a truly great friendship with him for many years, as we have a mutual respect, common interests, and we genuinely like each other. We just totally disagree about vengeance, that's all...and about politics usually...I'm a lefty/socialist and he can't find a right wing party extreme enough for his views anywhere. I regard vengeance as a natural human reaction, based on fear. When one realizes that all of humanity is of one spirit, then vengeance becomes self-defeating. It only perpetuates the cycle of hatred and begets further vengeance (Ireland, the Middle East, etc.). To quote Gandhi, "an eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind". I believe in protecting the public against violent and out-of-control people, by putting them where they cannot harm others...not by putting them cheek-by-jowl with other dangerous offenders in horrific prisons, however, where they soon learn to rape, murder, terrorize, and brutalize each other (if they expect to survive in that peer group), and make the whole situation even worse. I do not believe in punishing them in any way...just in placing them where they cannot harm...or be harmed...and rehabilitating them if possible. If not, keep them apart from society, and treat them with the mercy any human deserves. If you disapprove of violence or cruelty, then how can you justify practicing it? These are just rhetorical questions...I do not mean to put anyone down for their views, but simply to raise these questions, as they are worth considering. At the end of the day, we all try do what we think is right, and that's just my version of what I think would be best. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 00 - 07:39 PM I can still remember the morning they hanged Derek Bentley - he was only a few years older than we were, and it was all over the papers because he hadn't actually done the killing, and was in police custody at the time. But the boy who did do it,Christopher Craig was too young to hang, since he was only 16 at the time.
There was a strange sense of excitement around as it came up to the hanging time.
Thank God we're never going to get that in England , or indeed in the European Union, ever again.
Of course Derek Bentley was pardoned in the end, last year. More than 40 years after he was killed.
Christopher Craig, I believe, became a plumber, and had a family, and he's retired now, but he's kept out of the limelight all his life, and he never got into any kind of trouble after he was released.
He'd have been old enough to be executed in a very few countries. Including the USA. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:29 PM G'day,
If you believe in re-incarnation then surely executing convicted murderers would mean they would be once again in our midst in next to no time?
But seriously folks there is no such thing as 'justice' because no matter what happens to the perpetrator Bcnu 'A spirit is a soul without a body therefore a corpse is a body without a soul.' H.E. Manning.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: DougR Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:52 PM It appears to me, from Fionn's posting that the North Carolina legislature is already addressing these concerns. Cards, letters, petitions, etc. to the Governor of North Carolina from folks that live outside the state would likely bear little weight, in my opinion. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: sophocleese Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:19 PM I didn't think from Fionn's first posting that she suggested setting this prisoner free. Whatever you're view of the death penalty its clearly necessary that the court system that imposes sentences be as free as possible from racial bias. This is an instance where that clarity is not in evidence. So the whole case, beginning to end, is corrupted. Killing somebody under these circumstances is unconscionable. Working to remove the bias and corruption is sensible, killing someone on the basis of faulty logic and racial bias as a punishment for murder is not rational and not helpful. Stay the execution until the corruption is cleared up and then debate the merits of the death penalty. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: DougR Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:55 PM Like Sorcha, I won't get into the death penalty argument here either because the subject has been throughly aired in other threads before. I am for it and no arguments I have read yet, have changed my mind. Troll's suggestion, which Spaw supports is much more punative than death, in my opinion. The only argument I would offer against it, however, is some bleeding heart liberal would probably start petitions and urge others to do so too, urging repeal of that kind of punishment because it was too "unfair" to the guilty party GUEST Shrub: your post is intended as humor? Fionne: I assume you would favor setting Mr. Sexton free. Is that correct? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:29 PM "Okay so you lock someone up for life....they spend 25 years eating rat meat and bugs, getting gang raped in the shower, being beaten, robbed, abused and cheated of every day of their lives...."
A prison system like that is a crime in itself. On the eye for an eye basis, the people who are guilty of running a stem like that deserve to enjoy a long spell inside it. But zero tolerance never seems to work that way does it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Carlin Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:32 PM "..and how you would feel if some of these prisoners were killed and then found to be absolutely innocent at a later date?"
Okay so you lock someone up for life....they spend 25 years eating rat meat and bugs, getting gang raped in the shower, being beaten, robbed, abused and cheated of every day of their lives....then you find out they are innocent, how do you give them their lives back? How can you take that back? You can turn them loose, you can give them money, but you can never give back what you took from them any more than you can raise the dead.
Strikes me the best thing is not to make mistakes. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: John Hardly Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:27 PM Troll, Great post--very thought provoking. I am one of those who believes in capital punishment in principle but doesn't think we have an educated enough public to think rationally enough to convict or not convict based on evidence. I was also the victim of a fixed court and it scares the hell out of me to think of that at the capital level. I thought it was interesting though that they recently resurrected the play/movie 12 Angry Men. It doesn't resound anymore the way it was written. A re-write may have been in order as our society seems to be able to find "reasonable doubt" where there is none. We now look at the "why" of a crime and say we understand it. We used to look at the "why" of a crime and call it "motive" and "evidence". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Sorcha Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM I refuse to be drawn into yet another emotional argument about Capital Punishment. I thinks what I thinks, you thinks what you thinks, and nobody is going to change anybodys mind. If you would like some insight into the mind set,attitudes,and lives of both inmates and prison officers, please read "Newjack" by Ted Conover. Mr. Conover is an anthropologist/journalist who spent a year in Sing Sing as a Corrections Officer then wrote a book about it. Startling insights applicable to all jails, prisons and penitentaries. I think it should be required reading for everyone involved in the System. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:58 PM A couple of things could you explain the methods used to kill these prisoners ..and how you would feel if some of these prisoners were killed and then found to be absolutely innocent at a later date? is that just tough? .....and when you execute someone you kill them - they are certainly not set free!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: harpgirl Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:08 PM Someone was telling one of my brothers about a young man who had been convicted of robbery. They were going on about how the poor boy "Came from a "broken home" he said, "Then, why the hell didnt he steal lumber?" In suppose I may be biased because of my law enforcement background, but, I,ve seen many kids who came from abusive broken homes, and they didnt rape steal or murder anyone. See Diug, I'm not a total "bleeding heart liberal"Although I AM against the death penalty. The guy had no right to take anothers life, and, the state has no right to take his. Lock him up for life and throw the key away. If you execute him, you merely set him free. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Carlin Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:58 AM There is nothing in the post that questions the evidence used to convict, or that even suggests that this person is not guilty as charged. I wonder why?
What percentage of the black on black murders in North Carolina are second degree murder or manslaughter (not capital crimes). What percentage of black on white murders occur during the comission of a felony (armed robbery, home invasions, car-jacking and so forth)? In most states a murder committed in the course of a felony act is regarded as 1st degree, and hence subject to the death penalty. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: GUEST,Shrub Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM Hey, y'all just send him to Texas. We'll kill him, no questions asked. Been gettin' away with it for a long time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Troll Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:01 AM BTW, Little Hawk, what's wrong with vengance? troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:00 AM Ah troll.......I too have proposed that same thing here on the 'Cat......I call it the "Eight by Eight, Shit in a Can" sentence and I've been pushing it for years. Glad to have another in the fight.....We're both completely screwed up of course as this amounts to cruel, etc......I still like it though!!! Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Troll Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM Personally, I do not favor the death penalty. It takes too long and costs far too much money in endless appeals etc. What I favor is a system whereby a person convicted of a capitol crime is placed in solitary confinement for the rest of his/her natural life, given food, medical care and access to a lawyer and/or minister and NOTHING else.No tv, no exercise yard with other inmates, no family visits, NOTHING. I also feel that the victims family should be exempt from any and all taxes since it is tax money that maintains the prisons. I find it absolutely bizarre that the victims family, through their taxes, should be forced to maintain the person who murdered their loved one. Especially considering the level of care provided by the US prison system; good food, free medical care, exercise, job training opportunities, free legal counsel, entertainment educational opportunities etc. This should satisfy the people who argue that mistakes are made and(there are) people are wrongly condemed. This way they are still alive if and when new evidence that would exonerate them comes to light. Yes, I know that prolonged isolation is psychologicaly damaging. So is the death of a spouse or child or parent. Prisoners get medical help for free. Victims pay for it. last, I forget which Supreme Court Justice it was who said that the courts were not courts of justice but of law. There can be a VAST difference between the two. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:25 AM Darned if I know. I was just talking about "justice" in a general sense. If I get the time, I will try to investigate this particular story further... I do think that when it comes to being "black", people in the USA have gone a little crazy lately...and become caught up in knee-jerk reactions of one type or another...the O.J. Simpson case being a blatant case of that. It's racism going both ways, if you ask me, and it's really an atrocious situation. Why can't we all just be "human" for a change? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Amergin Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:14 AM So this guy should be freed (or is it just to have his sentence commuted to something lighter?) because he is black and has had a tough life? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:25 AM Prevent them, yes, for sure. I actually wasn't referring directly to your posting, Thyme, just to the general subject of the whole thread. I too am generally not in favour of capital punishment, as I don't regard murder by an individual as being a justification for murder by the state. Nor do I regard the state as being particularly reliable or trustworthy in those or in most other matters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Thyme2dream Date: 21 Oct 00 - 11:40 PM Oh...good point LittleHawk...I didnt mean to sound as though I were advocating vengence. Murder victims are not helped in any way by their murderers being put to death as well, and in light of the current problems in our judicial system, I am not really in favor of the death penalty. But if someone does commit a violent crime, we need to try to prevent them from doing it again by some means, and declaring them innocent won't address the problem at all. I also don't mean to say that Mr Sexton is guilty...just that he could be, and we shouldn't assume that the jury was wrong in their verdict just because they were white. Again, The racial issues really do need to be addressed, but not at the expense of convicting people of crimes they really did commit. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 00 - 10:16 PM Justice? You mean vengeance, don't you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Thyme2dream Date: 21 Oct 00 - 09:29 PM ahh... if only it were as simple as one side is wrong and the other right. The problem here seems to be that there are two victims. Obviously, Micheal Sexton's life has been hell, and there are very real reasons for sympathising with his plight and wanting to assure that justice has been done and people in his position in life get the help they need before anything violent results from it. On the other hand someone killed Ms Crewes...she is also a victim regardless of her race, and also deserves justice. The danger comes when we assume that just because the judicial system is flawed and racisim still runs rampant in sections of our society and in our courts, that the victim of racisim is automatically innocent of the crime itself. Nothing in your post tells me about the facts and the evidence used to convict him in the trial, so I can't say wether Mr. Sexton's sentence should be commuted or not. I agree one hundred percent with the concern over racial bias and the death penelty-and the cause for concern in North Carolina is overwhelmingly obvious-but to use those concerns to summarily dismiss the issue of guilt or innocence in a murder trial only clouds the issue. Hopefully, those working so tirelessly to try to correct these injustices can make sure that we dont swing the pendulaum too far the other way and figure out a way to see true, pure justice accomplished that is truely color blind! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 00 - 07:40 PM Thanks Fionn |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: MK Date: 21 Oct 00 - 06:51 PM Personally, I think Mr. Sexton should be accorded the same level of mercy as he demonstrated towards the (real) victim. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Oct 00 - 05:58 PM Another thanks here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Sorcha Date: 21 Oct 00 - 05:50 PM Thanks from me too. It wasn't a Capital case, but I know first hand the vagaries of the American "Justice" system. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA From: Hollowfox Date: 21 Oct 00 - 04:24 PM Thanks |
|
Subject: Justice in the USA From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM Well in 39 of the states anyway. Apologies in advance for a record-length post. But I know a few of you will read it, so it seems worth it. The words that follow are courtesy of Amnesty International - it seems like half of the cases they send me these days come out of the US. If you want to do anything about the specific case, see bottom of the post. Michael Sexton is scheduled to be executed in North Carolina on 9 November 2000. He was convicted in 1991 of the rape and murder of Kimberly Crews, committed in Raleigh in August 1990. Kimberly Crews was white. Michael Sexton is black and was condemned to death by a jury of 11 whites and one black. At jury selection, the prosecution removed the only other four African Americans in the jury pool by using peremptory strikes, the right to exclude individuals deemed to be unsuitable without giving a reason. Asked to explain such use of peremptory strikes, the prosecutor said that one of the blacks had not maintained eye contact and "was not forthcoming"; another was "not mature" because of "the way he was dressed", including an earring; and another was rejected as "litigious", having witnessed an accident that resulted in a lawsuit. Under US constitutional law jurors can only be removed for "race neutral" reasons (Batson v Kentucky, 1986). To win an appeal on this issue, the defendant must show that "purposeful discrimination" took place. Amnesty International believes that the Batson decision has failed to prevent racial bias in jury selection. Proving "purposeful discrimination" is nearly impossible, since prosecutors need only fabricate a vaguely plausible non-racial reason for dismissing potential jurors. A North Carolina newspaper, The Charlotte Observer, recently investigated the death penalty in North and South Carolina. In a series of articles in September 2000, it concluded that the capital justice system was "tainted with mistakes, inequities and incompetence". It found that "minority defendants start out with an intolerable and indefensible disadvantage compared to white defendants... black citizens are under-represented on juries. Prosecutors often excuse potential black jurors because they are less likely to vote for a death penalty conviction." The paper also found that "blacks who kill whites are the most likely to get death sentences, while blacks who kill blacks are the least likely". It pointed out that about 40 per cent of murder victims in the Carolinas are white, but 70 per cent of the state's death row inmates were convicted of killing whites.
My emphasis on this next bit
RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send faxes/express/airmail letters in English or your own language:
- acknowledging the seriousness of the crime, and expressing sympathy for the family and friends of Kimberly Crews; Governor James B. Hunt Jr. [Salutation: Dear Governor] Office of the Governor State Capitol, 116 West Jones St. Raleigh, NC 27603, USA Fax: 00 1 919 715 3175/001 919 733 2120 Thanks for your patience if you got this far, and hope Max/Joe and catters generally will forgive this indulgence of a personal interest! |