BS: vegetarians ?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: RichM
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:15 PM

The planet can endure much of our technological processes; most is simply broken down into components and re-integrated in the decay cycle.
Some things-either by their extreme toxicity (plutonium, as an example) or sheer vast quantity (name your own favorite poison)-are not as digestible to Momma Earth sans repercussion.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:15 PM

... of course killing endangered animals is wrong, for almost any reason. Condemning fur wearers wholesale, or demanding they take exraordinary measures as penalty for crossing someone else's 'holier then thou' threshold is nonesense! It's as ignorant as hating SUV drivers, or many other currently popular forms of class warfare. Obviously furs offer mankind one of the most effective protections to some environments, and like many other traditional garments, furs have found fashion advantages for some.

We farm cotten and corn. We farm minks and catfish. There are laws that govern the production and processing environments for all of those. What's the purpose of denegrating meat eaters or fur wearers, except to prove to the world that you, the complainer, are superior in your humanity, and know how the rest of the world should behave, (if only they'd listen)?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:01 PM

I think we should all be forced by law to dig our own water wells, generate our own electricity, weave our own fabric and sew our own clothes, too. And why stop there? We should be forced to create our own sewing needles, shovels, knives, and other tools - and if we have time, we can build our own TVs too. It is pure hypocracy to think that taking any advantage of our societies technologies and other benefits is anything but unfair to the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:31 AM

Gypsy, does cleaning fish count? I've done that many times. And I still eat fish. :)

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gypsy
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:21 AM

Along with fur coat wearers doing their own trapping/skinning/tanning/etc, think it would be a good idea for everyone to butcher, start to finish, at least once. We used to do it on a small commercial basis, which might be one reason we don't eat much meat anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:09 AM

My take on fur is that it is absolutely WRONG to kill endangered animals to make fur coats. It is almost certainly wrong to club baby seals, whether endangered or not. It is morally problematic to trap wild animals that are not endangered. But farm animals, as long as they're treated well, I have no problem with. Again this is just me.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:02 AM

I think people who want to wear fur should have to trap it themselves. :-) However, there are people who still live in sub-zero temperatures, and I'm not about to tell them they can't wear a bearskin coat, or eat caribou.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:09 AM

Well, hell! As a rabid omnivore, I've gotta put in my two cent's worth. I grew up in a hunting environment. We had almost no stock animals besides goats, sheep, and turkeys, but we lived well with plenty of wild game such as venison, squirrel, rabbit, and a few helpings of "mystery meat" that would arrive home already cleaned.

I tend to believe that we're too removed from our carnivorous souls, and we don't like to think about where our meat comes from. It's good to be at the top of the food chain.

However, I have many friends who are vegetarians, and I tend to prepare a whole range of foods when we have guests, with at least one vegan dish.

We've gone vegetarian in our household for months at a time, but it didn't make us feel "better", just more appreciative for our meat. And being a healthy vegetarian, with alternate protein sources is damned expensive in Texas, too!

Okay, down from the soap box. Everyone should eat what they want and enjoy, but don't get me started on fur coats!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gary T
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:01 AM

There are very clear anatomical differences and similarities among and between various groups of animals. Mammals have brain parts that are non-existent in other animals. Mammals have emotions, and feel pain. It's a pretty sure bet that none contemplate and agonize over these things the way humans do, although the great apes probably come close.

"Reptilian" type brains, found in reptiles, amphibians, and birds, do not have emotions and can't process "pain." These animals mostly function on instinct and reflex. Humans have tended to anthropomorphize their observations of animals, ascribing concepts such as fear and love to actions that are really based on much simpler brain processes. When you get to the "lower" life forms, it's all pretty much reaction to stimuli. A lobster does not suffer when plunged into boiling water. It reacts to the heat stimulus in ways programmed to get it away from danger. It does not "think" of danger, nor "wish" to avoid it. It is human nature to look at the process as if we were in that position and ascribe our feelings to the lobster, but they don't apply.

This is all pretty basic stuff that can be gleaned from a large amount of objective research out there. Humans are far and away the most neurologically developed, elevated if you will, creatures on the planet. That's why we are able to study these things. And agonize about them. And learn that not all animals have feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 May 01 - 09:57 AM

I have heard about MSG.... I thought maybe it was nitrites giving me a headache but there's nitrite in almost all deli meats now, and they don't seem to bug me. Chinese cooking doesn't bug me either. Oh well.......

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:23 AM

Well, John from Hull, I'm going to have to hope your experience was atypical; I was certainly under the impression that kosher slaughter was humane (as humane as killing can ever be, of course).

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:12 PM

Sometimes MSG is only mentioned on the label (in the U.S.) as 'natural flavoring'. They are not required to name it specifically.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:04 PM

mousethief, a few years ago i worked in a kosher slaughter-house,the animals were killed without being stunned and then hung to bleed to death,i think if we kill animals it should be done as humanely as possible.
kim c you could be allergic to monosodium glutamate, its a food additive also known as E621, it is known to cause headaches and is often used in chinese cooking. check product labels for MSG.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:44 PM

Well, I have a "Poetic Licensce"... and my step-dad is a therapist.

I actually have a hard time finding a therapist if I want to talk about stuff, because I know more about my inner processes than most of them, and more about theirs, too.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:26 PM

I was thinking of license to practice psychoanalysis, actually. But I like the way you think, Carol. Maybe I'll start a licensing bureau and issue Imputation Licenses. This could be a real big business! :-)

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: RichM
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:26 PM

I'd be suspicious of any "study" that purports to measure pain in animals.Cats and dogs are very alert to stimuli visually, and aurally. Why should they not feel pain to the same degree?

For a while I gave daily injections of antibiotic to a one-and-one-half inch turtle, with possibly the world's smallest hypodermic. Her reactions to this process were quick and frantic. I don't doubt reptiles feel pain!

There is a tendency among humans to elevate themselves above animals in all ways--including neurologically, it seems...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:25 PM

That sounds like a cool kind of license to have, mousethief. "CarolC, license to impute." What kind of qualifications to you need to get such a license?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:16 PM

I'll thank you not to impute motives to my behaviors, hesperis. Or show me your license.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 05:43 PM

I don't have any guilt about my food. I butchered a deer once, that my dad shot. I know where it comes from. It fed Mister and me for a good two years.

I tried the leaving out meat for health reasons. It didn't work for me.

I have been attacked by a vegetarian. Only one. I had to take it because she was my boss. But she wore leather so I don't know what that was all about.

My other veg friends don't tell me what to eat and I don't tell them what to eat. That's a really personal choice. Leave my food alone and I'll leave your food alone. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 29 May 01 - 05:15 PM

Rodger in Sheffield, I'm suprised that with all the protein pontification going on, no one gave you the answer to your question about "The Jungle," which was written by Upton Sinclair in about 1920, if my memory serves me well. It was considered one of the first "Muckraking" novels, along the lines of Jessica Midford, some thirty years later. It was responsible for the formation of the USDA meat inspection and grading standards, and some of the safety requirements for meat industry workers.

Personally I will eat almost anything that had a face or a mother. I absolutely love vegetarians, since they keep the price of meat down, are cheap dates, spend more time worrying about what's in meat than I do (thereby keeping the meat companies on their toes) and are the only people who will shut-up when they put a rare tender piece of the cow that died for my sins, on the plate in front of me. Now that's communion.

And by the way, I've honestly never known a vegetarian that truely LOOKED healthy...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:52 PM

Plants do feel, they are alive. Animals feel, and any rationalization that they "don't have a sense of self" necessary to feel pain is just that - a rationalization.

Pain is pain.

I would be extremely suspicious of any scientific study that seeks to prove that animals do not feel pain the way we do. That sounds like a theory created with bias towards being able to kill without guilt. Is it necessary for an animal to feel the way a human does for it to be taken seriously? How can they feel the way humans do? They are not human! But they obviously feel pain and fear, and they make choices to avoid pain and fear, if they are free. Just as we do.

And even small animals have personalities. Hamsters have specific likes and dislikes, and I have not encouraged it. One of my hamsters likes to crawl through toilet paper rools, and the other used to hate it. When I got them, I assumed that hamsters would like toilet rolls, and I read that most hamsters do like them. I think it's fun playing with them and the rolls, and would rather that both of them liked it. It's definitely their choice, not mine, if they like it or not. They don't have personality? Hello!

Animal training is based on reward and punishment, right? You can train birds that way, dogs, horses, the list goes on... They are obviously responding to PLEASURE and PAIN in order to make DECISIONS.

However, plants and small animals go into a "sleep" state when they are about to die. Carnivores in nature, shake their prey to loosen the "soul" from the body before actually killing the thing.

Killing happens all the time in nature, but it is personal, not impersonal and therefore unnecessarily cruel. It is our choice of what life to take, so that we live. It is their choice to become that which is eaten, that their cells may live in another form. Then life goes on. It is a direct exchange, their life for mine. And there is an opportunity to feel grateful for that, rather than guilty.

Slaughterhouses are cruel and unnecessarily so. The animals cannot help but be aware in advance that something bad is going to happen. They smell it, they feel the fear of those around them, they are aware of the death of the one previous to them in line.

It is our guilt at taking their life that causes us to hide it away in slaughterhouses rather than honestly looking at the fact that our choice to live has deprived another being of their choice to live. It is our guilt at not being vegetarian that causes us to feel that anyone who is vegetarian is attacking us for eating meat, even when they are just stating that they can't eat meat for whatever reason.

That said, most people take me for a vegetarian because I was anemic for years, undiagnosed. I was vegetarian for a while, but wasn't doing it properly, because I hated green leafy vegetables, the ones full of iron. I found out recently that I was *very* allergic to iron, which is why I couldn't digest meat or green vegetables well at all. (I already knew I was severely allergic to dairy.) Since being treated for those, I am much better, but I still need to be treated for hormones and additives before being comfortable eating meat a lot. I like meat, though. My favorite dish is a stir-fry with organic hamburger crumbled in it, and I LOVE beef gravy! MMMMMMM!

So, if you are going to go vegetarian, be sure to do it properly. Eat seaweeds if you are going vegan, because most humans don't produce enough B12 for themselves. Get your blood tested fairly regularly if there is a concern about nutrition, and plan meals well.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:28 PM

Hot dogs are very heavy in sodium, and nitrates/nitrites (I can never remember which is which). Getting the kosher brand (which are wonderful, if we're talking about Hebrew National -- yum!) may not help you any.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:24 PM

well, this is changing the subject a little.... I love hot dogs but rarely eat them anymore because they seem to make my head hurt. Someone suggested I try a kosher brand of dogs. I haven't yet because they cost more than twice as much as junk dogs! But I plan to one of these days. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 May 01 - 03:38 PM

Some info on what kosher means.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 03:32 PM

Killing and eating animals is "part of the food chain". Not for me, my wife, two adult daughters, one son-in-law and about 6% of the residents of Britain it aint. We have unlinked that part of the chain and are much happiers for it as are very many animals.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: BobP
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:35 PM

For the record, I like meat.

I believe the anti-meat stuff is overhyped.

I'm actually a charter member of the go-eat-what-you-want society. Just don't make a big deal of it.

I appreciate social trends that would lead to making meat less the star attraction of the dish. I think it tastes better and is better for you when the meat plays a supporting role or is occasionally omitted.

And, as for "kosher" (now this is for fun); I always thought it refered to what jewish husbands snuck off to the corner deli for, after pretending to enjoy dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:30 PM

Okay, Kat, now what will we talk about? You've said it all!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:48 PM

They do use liver for dog food. My animals like it too. Used to be, you could also buy Alpo with horsemeat. I don't think I ever bought that one, though, and I haven't seen it on the shelves in awhile. (When I was in Paris, I did see horsemeat on the menu, though.)

Most carnivores don't eat the whole damn thing. They leave the rest for scavengers.

Animals eat other animals. That's the way the Earth was built. We are animals too. Of course we can choose our food sources, which makes us a little different. But we are still animals. There's nothing wrong with that.

For those of you who refer to the Scriptures, the Lord told Noah after the flood that all the animals were there for him to eat if he wanted.

Now. We can all choose to eat what we like. I like meat. I like eggs. I like dairy. And I like me quite a few vegetables too. Sometimes I do cook a meat-free meal. (man, I love them portobello mushrooms all grilled up, and lentils and tomatoes in the Crock-Pot is a weekly thing in the winter) And if you come to my house for supper, I will make sure you have something yummy to eat, no matter what your dietary choice. And if you're a veg, and invite me to your house, I'm going to appreciate whatever it is you feed me.

So there.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:35 PM

Can't we use the liver for dog food? Rex is hungry too, and he LIKES the damned stuff.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: BobP
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:34 PM

Does Sushi count? What about liver?

Oh, so you'd eat the filet and leave the liver, that's not fair.

I say carnivores should have to eat the "whole damn thing".

Would you rather be a gazelle, or a fat lazy lion? (wait, a hippo is also a veg . . .

And you Canadians; after a few of your winters, perhaps a cow might actually prefer a warm comfortable slaghterhouse. And mousethief knows a few painless ones!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:12 PM

Mouse I have heard of but do not understand the meaning of kosher meat, so please enlighten me, by PM if it is easier.
Sorry that the thread went way off your original question John in Hull, I eat fish and other meat now and then. My reason for not eating too much chicken ( which I like) is that I have had food poisoning a couple of times from chicken sandwiches/meals
The book I refered to is this one

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:10 PM

Torturing? yes...

Killing and eating? Absolutely NOT... That's called The Food Chain.. it's the way the whole planet works... some stuff dies so that other stuff can live...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:52 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for taking the big "insult" as it was intended - lightheartedly.

Seriously though, does anyone really believe that torturing, killing and eating other living creatures is NOT cruel?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:33 PM

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was attacking Swan. I have been kicked so many times by rabid vegitarians that I sometimes overreact. Mea culpa.

I agree that the meat industry in this country (USA) is pretty disgusting.

Nobody has mentioned that kosher meats are prepared in ways, and facilities, which minimize cruelty and suffering. (Of course every time I mention anything Jewish the trolls come out of the walls, but it does deserve mentioning, and I can't muzzle myself to please cowardly attackers, or they will have won. If everyone but the bullies leave the playground, there will be nobody left but bullies.)

Nor the philosophical point that animals don't "suffer" the way humans in pain do, because they (at least the ones typically used for food) lack a sense of self that makes pain into suffering. (This is not a philosophical point but rather a neurological one -- I can give you book titles if you like.)

I do think everything should be done to minimize the pain of animals, and make their lives as pleasant as can be expected given the type of animal they are.

Nobody has mentioned essential amino acids, I don't believe. John in Hull, when you stop eating meat and other animal products (dairy, eggs), you must ensure that your diet includes the amino acids which humans cannot produce inside their own bodies and must therefore get from their food. Probably the best discussion of this (that I have seen) is in the book, "Laurel's Kitchen." It's also a great cookbook.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:33 PM

Peg, I will have to check that out. It is my personal theory that what individuals eat now has a lot to do with what their ancient ancestors ate. Geography definitely has a bearing on what foods are available. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:49 AM

I believe I have recommended this book before in other threads where the talk turned to what we eat and why...

Native Nutrition.

A VERY interesting look at the nutrition of indigenous peoples throughout history, and what happened when certain food items were introduced into those cultures (for example, sugar).

The author believes meat eating for certain peoples is entirely the right thing to do, and also thinks the standards governing agribusiness-raised meat are appalling; quite a good balanced attitude, I think.

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:44 AM

Animals love vegetarians,

and the reason is plain to see

I don't shoot at the animals,

and they don't shoot at me

from "The Hunting Song" © Gerri Gribi

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:11 AM

Problem with being a veggie in a cold northern climate like the UK (or Iceland) is getting the right protein.
OK, there's soya, but how many rolling acres of soybean are there in the UK? They have to be shipped in from overseas, meaning the expenditure of non-renewable fossil fuels. Not to mention many of the other exotics that make up a balanced veggie diet. So Tim, lay off Wolfgang!
There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian - but if claim to be one for ethical/moral reasons and you drink cows' milk, wear leather or wool or eat anything that needs to be imported then you're going to find it hard to avoid being called a hypocrite.
I'm happy eating meat, but would rather eat stuff I've shot/caught myself. If not, then I use an organic butcher. But I won't buy from supermarkets or high street chains, and neither should anyone who cares about the welfare of either the animals or the farmers.
Bloody hell, here's me, a meat-eater, sounding pious. sorry chaps!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:10 AM

G'day Kat,

Might have to start a thread about "Sheds"

And, as to your virgin friend - and eyss? Don't think she would handle a plate of whitebait fritters....;)

Sam

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:42 AM

JohnP, I agree with you, except when it comes to the house I live in. The smell of meat cooking in my house turns my stomach and makes me physically ill, so I do not live and let live in that way. If Rog wants any red meat, he cooks it in his little oven out in his "playhouse" (caravan, his toolhouse on wheels. It's like others guys' garages or sheds, like Rick's:-)

Billy, no knacker's yard for you! We'll revive ya! It si damn good to see you!

As for the terms, I once had a friend who was vegan and she simply said she didn't eat anything with eyes that could look back at her.

katwhousedtobearabidradicalaboutit

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:29 AM

I don't believe there is one diet that is perfectly healthy for all, because we are all different.

When I went semi-vegetarian a couple of years ago, I was hungry all the time, and in spite of a regular exercise program, I gained 16 pounds. Gained weight on salad, chicken, fruit, yogurt, cereal and vegetables. Ate no sausage or cheeseburgers or ice cream.

When I switched back to eating more lean meats and less bread and pasta, the weight came off and I am not hungry all the time.

Whoever up above said that a veggie diet is cheaper... come shopping with me one day and you may change your mind. Good vegetables are expensive down here in Tennessee.

I say, if you want to try it, try it. Somebody mentioned vegetarian cooking is better now than it ever has been. And the meat-substitute soy products are much better too.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Fortunato
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:27 AM

Hello John in Hull.

Well, John, I became a vegetarian in 1974 for spiritual/ethical reasons (Zen). It turned out to be the right diet for my health as well. In 1997 I reintroduced fish and shell fish in my diet for health reasons, sort of the optimum diet IMHOP.

My advice? Seek out soy based recipes, tofu, etc. Contrary to opinions above, the recipes can be damn good, about as good as the cook cooking. And eat salmon. As much as you can afford.

Now, when you eat, just eat, and be mindful, stay AWAKE.

cheers, Fortunato

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:24 AM

Tim, I was laughing about her for she easily could have known before.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:17 AM

Wolfgang: for once you are talking crap! being a vegetarian is simple; just don't eat meat. I really admire that young woman for missing Iceland for her principles though I've been in 28 countries and always managed. However If I had to choose between visiting a country and not eating animals I'd definitely give that country a miss.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:06 AM

Vegetarians?

Many nice ones I've met but I'll nver forget that extremely naive young German woman vegetarian I met in a train. She was just traveling back from an airport. She had come back from Iceland after a few days there where she had planned to stay for a year in a family in the very North of Iceland. She had looked forward to that year and was devasteted the first evening at dinner table when potatoes were the only non-meat on the table. When she was asking she was told that during winter time there would be weeks with only meat or fish and no alternative at all. She had to give up Iceland or being vegetarian. She gave up Iceland. I am still amazed that she didn't think of that problem before for even a tiny bit of reading about living conditions in Iceland would have told her of that problem.

Why do I tell this? There are regions in the world where you cannot be vegetarian (except at a very high cost for the environment due to unneccessary transport) and there are regions where you can easily.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:44 AM

I'm a vegetarian but not by choice, I've been a veggie from birth. Any meat, fish or eggs that went in my mouth was immediately spat out or if Mam managed to get me to swallow I threw it up. My system just couldn't cope with these foodstuffs. Anything else, fine.
Our doctor told Mam that I HAD to eat meat etc or else! She tried and I tried but to no avail, meat fish and eggs made me sick.
Much to my surprise, I found at the age of 28, that I could eat an egg, (hard only), without being sick.
I'll be 50 on June 12 and I still try occasionally to eat a small piece of meat or fish. To date no success.
I can cook meat and fish, smells great, but put it in my mouth? No thanks, until the next try.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: John P
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:04 AM

Many people, when they find out I'm a vegetarian, assume I am sitting in judgement on their eating habits and immediately start defending themselves. I really don't give a damn what anyone else eats, and I don't think most other vegetarians do either. And I haven't seen anyone in this thread trying to convert anyone else, or being particularly self-righteous.

Alex, Swan wasn't being self-righteous. She was explaining to someone who had asked about it the theory of causing the least possible cruelty. I didn't see her telling you anything about how to live your life. This is a thread about vegetarianism. Perhaps I should say: "Eat whatever you want, but don't come into a thread about vegetarianism and accuse vegetarians of being self-righteous because they are talking about why they are vegetarians."

I agree that the rabid converts who rail at all their friends for eating meat are pretty offensive, and counterproductive as well. I haven't seen any of that going on here.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:45 AM

billy well said, i expected a simple yes 5, or something like that. i am new to the inter net so i asked if anyone had any favourit websites last week and it turned into an argument (somebody told another member to f*** off!) but i suppose its all good fun.ps i think ill just cut down on the meat a bit.recently i seem to have been living on beer and burgers,my friends sister has just died of stomach cancer and it made me think .(she was only about 45) john

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:41 AM

Although I've been a veggie for 14 years I've never been happy with the term "vegetarian" as we do eat a lot more than vegetables. My daughter, a biologist, prefers herbivore but that's not populist enough for me. Can you catters come up with a better word? I'll start off with ENDA (eats no dead animals) (plus, Enda was an Irish saint!!!!! )

Jezebel: you doctor gave you bad advice, a lot of doctors are just as ignorant and just as biased as anyone else. A veggie diet is perfectly healthy for all.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:38 AM

I think you're right, Sam. This is a good thread. Good for you for pointing it out.