The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:15 PM

You must try to understand that Bulmer is a maniac collector of "things". If you.ve ever been toi Harrogate to his works , or to any of his other enterprises you will see that they are full of what is only realy described as "junk". He cant resist it. The works are like Steptoes Yard. The point I'm making is that in regard to copyrights, he HAS to own them. Then nobody else can own them. It's like those who buy stolen Old Master paintings - they cant do anything with them , but THEY OWN THEM. Its nearly a sexual gratification thing. Somnebody questioned the sanity of Bulmer - you probably all must realise that he's pretty near the dividing line between genious and insane. He is a manipulator who has an insane wish to "see the big picture" and then acquire it.

Why not pay a visit to North Works in Harrogate and view with wide eyed abandon the piles of redundant machinery, records, books et al.

Regrettably for all of us while he's got the tapes we will never see them (or hear them). They are HIS, all HIS.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM

Fair enough GeorgeH,

Your opening statement in this thread is as follows:

"Mr Bulmer is clearly an exception to the rule that "no-one ever makes a fortune from Folk Music in the UK".

What evidence have you presented here that Mr. Bulmer is a wealthy man, and that he made a fortune from folk music in the UK?

Sentence #2 of your post says:

"He is also known for being rather litigatious (he can afford to be, unlike most if not all of those with whom he is in dispute). "

What evidence have you presented here that Mr. Bulmer is litigous? What evidence do you offer to support your "fact" that Mr. Bulmer has more money than those parties with whom he is in litigation?

GeorgeH, it seems to me that you are the most guilty sycophant here. You are clearly using the hearsay referred to in the Living Tradition editorial, and claiming that hearsay as fact.

I initially tried to point out, very politely, that the "facts" you were presenting were nothing of the sort--just hearsay and your personal beliefs about a man you clearly have nothing but contempt for, if your remarks about him here are anything to judge by.

The response to my suggestion from both you and Ralphie were both swift, and negative. Methinks you both doth protest too much.

You also claimed, without providing any evidence, that:

"Over the years, he has purchased the rights to an enormous quantity of the "back catalogue" of the British Folk Revival,"

You aren't distinguishing between what he bought and didn't buy, as a liquidator. That is a crucial piece of information. DG has said:

The sum of my knowledge regarding the actual content of the purchase was that it comprised the entire Leader and Trailer catalogues which John Zollman had bought, either directly from Bill or from the company Bill had sold it to. (The latter, I suspect.)

Now, I'm no solicitor, but if I understand the law correctly, Bulmer MAY NOT own rights to the Leader catalogue. If Bill Leader sold the masters, contracts and copyrights to John Zollman or another company previous to him, then those rights may well be no longer in the hands of the entity which owns and possesses the masters.

Capiche? Just because Dave Bulmer has the Leader, et al catalogue masters, doesn't mean he "owns the rights" to recording and performance of them.

It could just be that Dave Bulmer knows these laws better than most musicians, music journalists, and punters who, based upon hearsay (and even what DG is saying is hearsay, I might add), have decided that he has rights and masters he actually doesn't have, and possibly never did.

I could go on like this line by line with your message, but I really don't think any of us needs to go there.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:22 PM

Guest,

Elsewhere in this thread I indicated - in general terms - the scope of my enquiries which lead me to attest that the summary I offered is factually accurate.

I am not sure in what sense you feel the LT piece (which, as you acknowledge, is a number of years old) contradicts what I wrote. Certainly I don't see any contradiction between what I wrote and the DG piece you included.

Perhaps that's just me being stupid. Nevertheless, if you'd care to indicate what the accuracies are in my original article we'd be able to make some progress. To date I still don't see that you've brought either any new facts, or any new viewpoint, to this consideration. All you have done is questioned the accuracy of my account, without providing any coherent basis for doing so.

As you say, getting at the truth can be hard work. Accusing others of not presenting the truth is, however, trivially easy, as you/GUEST has indicated.

Of course my account is not the whole truth; that's generally unattainable, and probably personal! More particularly, I chose to omit all those aspects of which I was not entirely certain, and others which I felt were not particularly significant. Plus, of course, information which I am simply not free to publish.

And once again, may I ask what your motives are for suggesting my account is untruthful, when you appear to have no evidence to support that assertion?

Regards

George

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:38 PM

Les from Hull,

Actually, what you are saying about a paucity of facts beyond those presented here is true.

What is necessary to know the facts is some considerable, tedious research. It may be possible to find out who originally owned masters, contracts, and copyrights (contracts are sold along with product and copyright in these liquidator deals)now presumed to be owned by Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer, et al.

It may be possible to find out if and when anyone ever filed for remedies and/or breaches, that sort of thing.

And someone could actually try to interview Dave Bulmer about it without being antagonistic and hostile.

I think everyone agrees it would be nice to know the truth. But getting at the truth is usually a lot more work than most people are willing to go through to find it.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:26 PM

Oops!

Apparently GeorgeH, we both need to get back to work, and stop posting duplicate messages!

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM

True, Guest but I don't see any facts coming from anywhere else. If Dave Bulmer has got a case to make, let him make it. Perhaps he thinks that it's none of our business, and he's entitled to think that if he wants, but if that is so it shows rather a cavilier attitude to a group of people whao are (or would be) his customers.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:23 PM

GeorgeH,

I appreciate your belief that you were "factually" summarising what you have labelled the "Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer Saga" here.

However, I'd like to point out that the source of information to which I have been referring was not your original post to this thread, but the Living Tradition editorial. Which also makes reference to the Dick Gaughan message you attempted to summarise here. The Living Tradition editorial states:

"Dick Gaughan made that very point in a newsgroup forum on the internet."

Upon reading that Living Tradition editorial on-line, I simply did a Google search with "Dave Bulmer" as key words brings DG's message up.

It may well help lower the levels of animosity in this thread if you would temper your remarks, and your insistence that your "facts" on this matter are more true and reliable than others.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM

GeorgeH,

I appreciate your belief that you were "factually" summarising what you have labelled the "Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer Saga" here.

However, I'd like to point out that the source of information to which I have been referring was not your original post to this thread, but the Living Tradition editorial. Which also makes reference to the Dick Gaughan message you attempted to "summarise" here. The Living Tradition editorial states:

"Dick Gaughan made that very point in a newsgroup forum on the internet."

Apparently you are active in that forum as well. However, as I stated earlier, Folk Roots and the UK folk newsgroup are not the only sources of information on this matter.

It may well help lower the levels of animosity in this thread if you would temper your remarks, and your insistence that "facts" which you summarised here are the one, only, true version of events and circumstances surrounding Celtic Music and Dave Bulmer.

The facts you cite have been greatly distorted over the years that this issue has been discussed, both on and off line, and in the UK music press (which last time I checked, included Living Tradition).

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

No idea how that message got sent twice . . but as this thread now appears it should have been addressed to "guest the last but one" . .

And sorry, Guest the last, but I don't see any seriously-intended threat in here, but so far as I know registering as a Mudcat member doesn't make any of your details available to anyone . . and, of course, you can always make the thread more intelligible by using some form of identifier along with Guest. But then again much of the rest of your contribution here made only minimal sense , except in the just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get me sense. However, if you genuinely feel intimidated from presenting your true opinions, under your own (or even an assumed) name, here or elswhere within the folk world then I am very sincerely sorry.

Regards,

George

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM

Tyke...Old Bean ! I must hold my head up and confess that both "In Search of"....and "Unearthed"...consist almost entirely of bootleg recordings.....!! (apart from a couple of tracks re-purchased from the Beeb) Shall we not bother to release them??!!.....Discuss... Oh....you already are ! Love R xx

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM

Guest the last . .

I think when you say You'd spend a lot on solicitors you hit a rather large nail very squarely . .

and, as I said in the original article (with a couple of additions in bold, added for clarification:

He (Bulmer) is also known (rightly or wrongly) for being rather litigatious (he can afford to be, unlike most if not all of those with whom he is in dispute)

G.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:40 PM

This is all I will say about the "GUEST" obsession here...

There are at least two of us GUESTS contributing to this thread who choose not to identify ourselves.

And a long list of "self-identified" Mudcatters (though I'm guessing "Geoff the Duck" may not be the legal name of the person using it here) have been terrorizing the GUEST users for exercising the option provided by Mudcat to post anonymously.

Previously, the first GUEST stated he/she was not comfortable with threats being made. I seconded that, and of course, the threats and abuse only got worse.

For the record, my decision to sign on as GUEST is due to the small size of the UK folk community (of which I am an active participant), and because of some members' long, unforgiving memories, excellent health, and substantial enough income levels to allow hiring of solicitors to seek revenge on their behalf.

Some responses to my GUEST messages only serve to prove my point.

Many people who contribute to Internet forums do not wish to be readily identifiable for a host of honorable and innocent reasons. Rights of privacy, as well as the right to speak freely without fear of retaliation and retribution (still a serious issue in many parts of the world, including, apparently, this forum), are both reasonable justifications for using pseudonyms for posting anonymously on-line.

This forum allows for the use of pseudoyms and anonymity under the GUEST log-in, rather than requiring an e-mail address. If Mudcat respects those rights to privacy of it's GUESTS, I suggest the Mudcatters respect the forum enough to honor those GUESTS who choose to exercise that option when contributing to Mudcat discussions.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

Pavane,

I don't see how such a contract (ie the rights being guarded against future actions) could be binding. The rights have already been lost. If I understand the laws correctly, the original rights no longer exist legally, once they have been transferred to another owner.

The rights regarding the masters are a different matter. One of the fuzzy areas in the CM case is that no one knows what Bulmer actually has in his possession, and what he doesn't, or what rights are his, and what aren't. Or even, what copyrights he originally owned, and what copyrights were transferred to him through his purchase of liquidated assets.

Because he was acting as a liquidator, a recording company, and a distributor, it isn't clear to me (based on all accounts I've read) what of Nic's back catalogue was originally owned by Bulmer/CM, who the original owner of Nic's copyrights were, and what might have been transferred forward to a new company.

You'd spend a lot on solicitors, who in the end might tell you there was no feasible way to get masters or recording or performing rights for any of Nic's material, because of the laws governing what Bulmer does and doesn't have to disclose about what he has and owns.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM

EJ - any contract would have to be sufficiently watertight to ensure, for example, that if masters are unusable, then price paid would be reduced appropriately. But in principle, yes, and maybe the rights could be guarded against similar action in future.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM

I have more than once tried to promote the idea to the DTI in England that the "benefit and burden" problem discussed in the MU article cited above should be remedied, but to no avail.

Since TOny Blair plays guitar someone persuasive should have a go at him once the public performance/music licensing issue has settle down a bit.

But there could be another angle. The copyright in sound recordings (like any other copyright) depends on a morality view or the bargain between artist and public (depending on where you stand on the US/EEC views on this).

I respectfully submit that once a sound recording has been out of issue for a given period it should enter "domaine publique payante" where it could be commercially copied subject to the payment of royalties to the owner of the copyright in the sound recording and indemnifying him against royalty claims by artists etc.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:21 AM

Heavens, she's at it again . .

That long article of Gaughan's is the what I summarised in my previous post; note, in particular: "the subsequent witholding left me a bit stunned, to be euphimistic" and what follows.

Once again, Ms Ryan is seeking to argue by inuendo. Nowhere has she offered one shread of evidence to rebut anything offered as fact in this thread. Once again, she has chosen to ignore specific challenges to the information and views she has chosen to present here.

She writes at great length (a failing to which I, too, must plead guilty) and plausibly. However, her "arguments" are devoid of logic. The only Urban Legend being generated here is the one Janet is trying to promote, namely that there is anything untrue in the summary of the Bulmer/CM situation which I posted at the start of this thread.

At the end of the day you must decide for yourselves between Janet ("Guest") and those who have presented reasoned criticism of Bumer/CM. Who has done most to investigate events? Who is closer to events? Who is more open about their motives? Who has more fully recognised both sides of the story (as opposed to speculating about what another side to the story just might be)? Who has been most ready to respond and develop comments on and criticisms of what they have previously written?

I am sorry if my anger has upset anyone here. I am particularly sorry if this "spat" upsets Nic/Julia Jones. However, this thread isn't actually about Nic and Julia, and it's only Janet's intervention which has given it that narrow focus.

In an earlier message I invited a couple of participants in this thread to contact me directly by email. That related to a specific point, but the email address is there for anyone that wants it. I am prepared to involve myself in this matter openly and in my own name, and to pursue it "off line" with anyone who wishes to do so.

Every injustice is an injustice too many, and Janet's time would be better spent campaigning against the injustices in the US recording industry rather than seeking to defend, from her position of ignorance, the behaviour of CM/Dave Bulmer.

I hope I shall have no need to add anything further to this thread.

Regards to all

George

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:59 AM

Pavanne, it seems to me that realistically, the best way to make these materials available once more is to float a company to purchase them from Mr Bulmer, assuming he could be persuaded. Funding it is more of a problem, but not, I would hope, Insurmountable? Perhaps the collection could be sold off a little at a time, prices agreed for just the Jones recordings, Bellamy recordings, etc? That way, Bulmer would see a steady flow of income from a product that can't be generating revenues for him at the moment, and ultimately we could make the entire leader/trailer catalogue available again.

Seems like the most sensible approach to the problem.

EJ

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:56 AM

I'm really not interested in detailing lists of artists who have been legally ripped off by record companies, publishers, and copyright owners. I mentioned Green Linnet only as an example of a highly visible "respectable" company in the U.S. which engages in the practice.

While I empathise with people's desire to see rights wronged, I think their time might be best spent educating themselves about these issues before deciding to "take action" on behalf of Nic Jones or anyone else. I would humbly suggest the last thing Nic Jones needs is for a group of well-intentioned Internet users to collectively purchase the masters or the rights from Dave Bulmer.

I refer those who are sincerely interested in this issue to this article at the Musicians Union website, which clearly outlines some of the issues relevant to Nic's case:

www.musiciansunion.org.uk/news/newsw.html

Click on the Dec '97 issue, and go to the article titled "Benefit and Burden" by Horace Trubridge.

This is a good summary of precisely what Malcolm was talking about.

And finally, there are some people who continually claim to be in possession of the so-called "facts" about Dave Bulmer/Nic Jones. Since so few of the contributors to this thread bothered to go to the link I previously gave at Living Tradition, which a number of years ago made the case that there was a lot of myth being passed off as fact, I will just give the direct quote to which I was referring in that editorial:

"I have had a considerable amount of flak after publishing the news item in the last issue about Celtic Music. The main accusation being that by pointing out positive contributions Dave Bulmer may have made to the folk scene I was giving him credibility, 'sitting on the fence', and in danger of actively supporting him.

What I was pointing out was, that the article in the Observer to me appeared to be unbalanced. It seemed to me that there must be another side to the story. My view was that substantive matters could be masked by people making statements that were not true.

Some of what people relate about Celtic Music is clearly heresay and some myths are building up.

Celtic Music has featured in the folk press - mainly in letters to Folk Roots - over a number of years and the company has been in the 'notices' section of The Musicians Union for a long time warning people to seek advice before dealing with them. Some time ago I was faxed a copy of this with a scribbled note on it saying 'What has brother Gaughan got to say about this'. The fact that Dick was working with Dave Bulmer was a surprise to many people and is another factor that led me to the conclusion that there must be more to Dave than is commonly portrayed."

And, I apologize for length here, but I'm also going to quote the much cited, rarely read article by Dick Gaughan posted in uk.music.folk in January 2000. This DG article on the Internet was in response to a query put to him by the editor of Folk Roots (which I also quote below), who appears not to have near the grasp on the "facts" of this case some keep attributing to him.

In <[e-mail]> on Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:25:05 +0000, Ian Anderson wrote:

>If you're willing to talk about this in the public domain as it were.

>do you happen to know if the purchase of Trailer/Leader >included the LPs which came out on Transatlantic bearing >the logo "The Leader Tradition". Because those included >both "From The Devil To A Stranger" and Bandoggs., and if >they weren't part of the deal, then where are they now?

I haven't a clue if they were part of the sale or where they might be if they weren't. It was during a period where CM were buying up back catalogue from anyone who decided to call it a day, in itself quite a laudable and smart decision. It is what happened to the stuff later that sets my teeth on edge :(

When the question of CM purchasing the Leader stuff came up, I was asked for my opinion. Given that the alternative was probably purchase by some institution or other from across the pond my view was that it was vital that it remain somewhere in the UK as it was a vital part of our culture(s) and was an irreplacable archive of a unique period of musical exploration and development; it would have been a tragedy were it to be taken elsewhere. Were I asked the same question by anyone today, I would offer the same view.

As I had, at that time, no real reason for doubting that CM was run by honourable people with reasonable motives, my advice was to buy it and make it available on CD, the complete catalogue. To do anything other made no sense whatever to me and the subsequent witholding left me a bit stunned, to be euphimistic, and scratching my head in vain attempts to discover anything remotely resembling logic, of either business or ethical varieties.

The sum of my knowledge regarding the actual content of the purchase was that it comprised the entire Leader and Trailer catalogues which John Zollman had bought, either directly from Bill or from the company Bill had sold it to. (The latter, I suspect.)

To my knowledge (which is probably not complete) it included masters, contracts and existing stock, mainly vinyl - hence, I presume, the obsession with vinyl sales.

Sorry I can't be more helpful in tracing that,

-- DG

As I and Malcolm Douglas have both said, there is always more than one side to a story.

This story has grown to urban legend status within certain circles of the UK folk scene. Everyone knows the story, of course. But not everyone is in agreement about the version promulgated through the Folk Roots letters column, and the uk.music.folk on-line forum, which is now making its way into the Mudcat mythology.

Because Dave Bulmer has never publicly responded to these criticims, doesn't mean he doesn't have what I'm quite sure is a very different version of events than the ones DG gives, the letter writers to Folk Roots give, the Musicians Union gives, etc etc

I'm not saying any one of these versions is more right than the other, because I honestly don't know. Nor, it seems, do those who are promulgating and/or swallowing myth as fact in this thread.

Educate yourselves if you are sincerely concerned about artist rip-offs. And PLEASE don't go around repeating myth as fact.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM

Sticking to facts, as newly resolved to do . .

Gaughan was connected to Bulmer long before the MU "listing". However he's another artist who's swapped labels a lot; I'm pretty certain (so much for sticking to facts!) the early Gaughan albums were aquired by Bulmer; they certainly weren't made for him.

The Gaughan/Bulmer relationship is a long and complex one; I suggest anyone who want to know more about it contacts Gaughan directly.

Thinking of this, there is an angle which hasn't been mentioned before in this thread. Gaughan is on record saying that, when Bulmer acquired rights in much of this material, it appeared to be the best thing that could happen to it; safeguarding its future. Dick's opinion is that those hopes turned out to be misplaced.

English Jon/Pavane - can I suggest you email me privately? (ghawes at advaoptical dot com)?

And I can't remember who's on Fair Annie, but I THINK I know where our copy is . .

G.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:01 AM

The Green Linnet site is on www.greenlinnet.com and for a full discography of Peter Bellamy try www.bens.connectfree.co.uk/pb/PBDISC.HTM

Badger

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:38 AM

Pavanne, Peter's "Barrack-Room Ballads" was recorded on Green Linnet - part of Innisfree Records of Connecticut, and "Keep on Kipling" was on Fellside Recordings of Cumbria.

GUEST - in trying to cure any bad situation you have to start somewhere!

There is one action that we can all take - quite legally and above board - and that is to avoid buying any product which has anything to do with DB, Celtic Music or any other company involved with DB... if you are not sure about a label etc., ask the seller and explain what products you don't want to buy.

This might gain the attention of Mr. Bulmer more effectively than invective.

Badger

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:30 AM

The tape I know of was newly recorded, 'Fair Annie'. An excellent album, and shame that it had to be so limited (500 copies only). I think I remember reading that he had Dave Swarbrick guesting on Maids of Australia.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM

Pavane - I can remember Peter Bellamy announcing that as some of his older recordings had become unavailable, he had had to 'bootleg himself'. Whether these were copies of older recordings or newly recorded versions, I cannot say.

And, Guest, If you know of someone who is suffering from Green Linnet's refusal to release back catalogue, why not post the details here? Perhaps a few emails to Green Linnet from Mudcatters may convince them they are missing out on a commercial opportunity.

Les

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:06 AM

I have Peter Bellamy's 'Fox jumped over the Parsons gate' in my collection, I will check who did that. I know he had a fight with Kipling's ?daughter over the rights to use the Kipling poems, but that was a different matter. I do know that he put out some limited edition tapes, presumably to earn some money, and don't suppose he would have done that unless other avenues were blocked. And EJ: when do we start?

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM

George,
The Library of Congress was the source of the Grainger cylinders, mainly of Joseph Taylor, which were used for the "Unto Brigg Fair" record. The recordings were remastered by Bill Leader, I don't know if the L of C got a "safety" copy or not. As you say the cylinders are now 90+ years old, so your guess is as good as mind as to what could be retreived at this date.
Dick Gaughan, while still working with Bulmer remastered some of the Leader archive "Fate o' Charlie", and "Ballads and Songs" were two he mentioned by name.
I understand that "Kist o'Gold", has not been released on CD because the masters have deteriorated to such a degree that they are unusable. Remastering from mint vinyl, would seem the only option. Dick's words were "I'd just like to see it out there, I won't see a penny".

For anybody who doesn't know tapes, being magnetic, suffer from what is known as "print through" where some of the recording is passed from a peice of tape, to the tape over and under it in the spool. This results in a "echo" of the next bit of recording. It is most often heard at the start if the recording or on unacommpanied singing. Some of the Leader records had this detectable when the masters were new, so what it will be like after 30+ years untouched, who knows?. This is in addition to physical decay.

Pavane, Peter Bellamy jumped about between recording companies, Transanlantic, Topic, Free Reed, spring to mind. The only track I know for sure on Trailer was a Young Tradition song on the Trailer Sampler, but there may well have been some, ?the Kipling records for instance I'm not sure.

Tyke, Mr Bulmer is not above making copies himself. I know of one group who found that copies of their self produced, vinyl only, album started to appear on cassette after Celtic Music started distributing it.

love, john

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:32 AM

Pavanne, you've read my mind.

EJ

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM

Oops! Forgot to ask this question: does anyone know if Dick Gaughan signed with Bulmer before or after he was put on the MU blacklist?

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM

I would consider making an investment in it. What about forming a company and raising capital for the purpose? If we had previously been willing to make donations, then it wouldn't matter if the shares never paid a dividend. Just rescuing the music would be enough for many people.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:26 AM

I would suggest that if people are this interested in the controversies surrounding Celtic Music that they find out about the many, many other instances of the very same things happening to other musicians who don't own the rights to their music.

In the U.S., Green Linnet has the U.S. rights to many artists back catalogues, and refuses to release them.

Why, when this practice is so prevalent, are people so shocked and indignant about this one circumstance? It has been happening to folk and blues musicians in particular, for the better part of this century.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:03 AM

George Clarke/Tyke.

If you see DB, why not ask him what he considers a "fair price" for this material? He is, after all a businessman. If, as you suggest he might be willing to sell, I am sure there are ways and means to raise the required capital - (Even if if I have to go round festivals with a bucket for the next 5 years). I'd be very interested to know if this was a possibility, as I'm sure would a few other people on this thread.

Sincerely,

Jon Loomes

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 06:40 AM

Since we're back on facts . . .

Ralphie, point noted, will do (more or less, but then "you know me . . ")

Terry B, thanks for balancing Tyke's comments about Gaughan . .

Tyke, no one has denied Bulmer's right to make a living from his investment. We all form our own conclusions on the information we have in our possession; you seem to arrive at differnt ones to me. It might be interresting to discuss our differences over a pint, but I'd guess neither of us can speak entirely freely in this forum.

Regards

George

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 04:23 AM

Take heart Tyke. Bulmer's partner may be a solicitor, but what a solicitor. Try finding this page. Is he a good guy or is he a bad guy - the choice is up to you.

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/archive/oldarchiveframe.asp?ArticleName=/gazettearchive/1999-04-09/00000044.html

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Eluned
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:50 AM

Er, part of the point being, if he isn't sane, then he being in control of such irreplaceable items is truly a tragedy, and might be looked as a kind of "force of nature" rather than a stubborn, possibly unrealistic person that a lot of people are very unhappy with. Oh, and please don't think I don't take this seriously, I'm prone to understatement.
Eluned

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Eluned
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:44 AM

folks, I've just read this whole thread, have found it very informative.
But, I have one question; given that this man Bulmer is refusing to remaster or preserve some very old recordings that are on tape and are at this very moment DECAYING (oh horrible thought!) so that even he won't have them after a while, even when it isn't going to cost him money (though possibly will cost him loss of control over them), has anyone asked whether he is sane?
Eluned

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:22 AM

Did this also affect Peter Bellamy?

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Terry Blankenship
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:56 AM

I first became aware of all of this from Dick Gaughan, when I asked him after one of his shows if his "Kist O' Gold" Cd would ever be made available. He told me that it and what amounted to a "national treasure" of traditional recordings would possibly never be made available to the public. He was not happy about the situation and pretty much said what George and Ralphie have said in this thread. If you go to his web site right now you will see this message concerning his "Kist O' Gold" Cd:

"At the time of writing this, the master tapes of this album appear to be in the possession of CM Distribution, England. As is the case with most of the vintage recordings they own, they do not seem interested in releasing it so I believe it is currently unavailable. Their address is Hookstone Park, Harrogate, North Yorkshire HG2 7DB England. Tel: [phone] Fax: [phone]"

The next time I heard about it was when Martin Carthy suggested that I listen to Nic Jones first 4 lps. He told me that they were out of print and told me why. Once again saying pretty much what George and Ralphie have said in this thread about it.

They are not the only ones. I have had quite a few very well known traditional musicians tell me the same things.

It seems that almost all of the great traditional musicians are aware of this situation and have either been affected directly by it, or know someone personally who has.

They have not forgotten it, and won't unless and until the situation changes.

Any time in the future when someone like me tries to find one of these lost treasures on Cd, they will find out it is out of print, and find out why.

Nic Jones is not the only musician affected by all of this. His case is definitely the one that makes Dave Bulmer look the worst though.

Dave could do wonders for his public image just by releasing Nic Jones material to back him. Surely he knows this.

Terry

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Tyke
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:49 PM

He that is without sin should cast the first stone! How many mudcatters can honestly say that they have never ripped off an Artist? To say that you have not you will never have received a bootlegged version of an Album. Folk Club organisers will have always made payments to PRS so that PRS can pay the artists. Have you always bought sheet music or have you just used the Mudcat to get the words of songs or copied them down off the Artists Album. Cyrill Tawney songs are available on the Mudcat are they not? Cyrill Tawney is the Oldest Professional Singer Songwriter still performing and trying to earn a living! How many singers in free sing arounds have you heard sing one of Cyril's Songs. It's not just Cyrill or Nick that lose income.

Maybe clubs, gatherings should all make a donation to the holder of the copyright to the songs that are being performed. The English Folk Song and Dance Society hold quite a lot of copy rights on "Traditional Music". There seem to be lot's of music books being published at this moment by different publishers who only have to change the odd note hear and there to get round copyright.

Celtic Music has appeared on the Blacklist of the Musicians Union for 10 years and during that Time Dick Gaughan was recording on the Celtic Music Label. He seemed quite happy then and must have known all the Dave Bullmer stories then. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Dick Gaugan is quite Left wing.

If you have any dealings with Dave Bullmer and or Celtic Music you should contact the Musicians Union. If you have any dealings with anyone with regard to signing a contract you should contact the Musicians Union. You should join the Musicians Union and follow their advice. Which will tell you that should get your solicitor to read any contract before you sign it! If you don't well you have only yourself to blame. Oh Dave has or had a partner who is a solicitor!

Oh and as for buying up defunct record labels and vinyl for a £1 an album I think Dave once told me he only paid 25p. Businessman he is he is not running a charitable organisation Dave is just in my view trying to make a living. At least he is doing it with the music that he Love's and not just trying to churn out commercial crap. Maybe he is not making the fortune that people think that he is and he has to sell to reduce his stock and to earn some money before he reinvests his capital in re-releases. Only Dave knows his reasons for hanging on to things.

One thing is for certain Dave is in business to make money and as a businessman uses his knowledge to buy product at the cheapest price. It seems pointless to expect him to give away what we all agree is a valuable asset. It's just a case of offering him a fair price and buying back Nicks writes to his music. However you will still need to distribute the album to get it to the shops do you really have the contacts. If you do are you a rival record company? George Clarke

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM

Apology appreciated, and gratefully accepted Ralphie.

I hope the new album is a great success.

Best of luck to you all.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:58 PM

Oh...and another thing, before I forget... a little reply to "Guest" message, timed at 0830 3rd July. Quote "Why not celebrate how far Nic has come?"....we do. Quote "How rich is he in friends".....very. Quote "How lucky he is to be alive"....very. Quote "Why bring Bulmer into this"....never wanted to. Quote "Why put a dark cloud over what should be a happy time for Nic"......My answer to this last comment would probably get me banned for life.....but, here goes...All Mr B has got to do, is hand over the tapes to the lost 4 albums of Nics...He'd suddenly become a well liked man. Fairly simple "Guest" isn't it?? We'd even forget about 20 years of misseed royalties...etc. and before anybody accuses me of an interest (other than musical) I'm not getting a penny through my involvement with Nic, and I can't understand how any right thinking human being gets a kick out of denying poor musicians from the proceeds of their craft....I'll get angry again if I continue...so, I'll stop...love to the many "Catter" freinds I've made....Goes to show that there's still some...soap in the hole (Shurely shome mishtake....ed!) Ralphie xxx

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:29 PM

Hello everybody, peeps!! Spoke to Julia Jones about this little spat on the "Cat"..She and Nic are very sad about it... The situation as far as "Unearthed" is concerned, is that I am still putting it together, we've had a change of heart as to what will be included, (and a few cross words!) but, it will be 2 CD's totalling about 2 hours of stuff, both new and old. so, watch this space. As for the "Guest" stuff that seems to have filled far to much space on this thread, I'll say 2 things..... George H.....enough, already...Time to butt out..(Big respect!) Guest(s).....sorry to have shouted the other day, but, my sadness at your attitude to this matter knows no bounds. To all the rest of you chaps and chappesses out there, It's lovely to hear your sane viewpoints, thats why I visit this site so often.....and as for the guy with the JCB....!!! Mmmmm not a good idea, we could all end up in a lot of trouble!!! Be Good and careful all of you....Much love Ralphie xx (and Nic/Julia)

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 05:12 PM

It's not flogging a dead horse, because the horse isn't dead. The longer the situation goes on without signs of change, the more people get angry, and the more angry people get. I'm not one of the handful you (guest) says keep bringing it up, but I'm angry about it and wish something were done.

Refraining from discussing the matter will not make the anger go away. What will make people shut up about it is for something positive to be done. As far as I'm concerned, until that happens, people will and should voice their opinions. There may be someone who hasn't heard about this.

As far as I'm concerned, it must be an artiste's worst nightmare that he be rendered incapable of performing and his previous material, and income, is deliberately witheld. It's just my opinion, but this seems nothing short of evil.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,What's My Line?
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM

This is getting to be quite amusing...

So who are you, GUEST(S)?

Dave Bulmer?

Mrs. Dave Bulmer?

An agent of Dave Bulmer's?

A woman or a coward?

Will all of you guests sign in please?

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM

Dita/John:

I did hear a suggestion that copies of the wax cylinders which Bulmer owns are also held in the Library of Congress collection . . do you know anything about this?

(As I understand it they comprise or include Percy Grainger's field recordings. I have also been told that if they haven't been archived to another medium by now the chances of getting meaningful sounds off them are not good.)

G.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 11:54 AM

One reason that this thread was started was to provide a cohesive answer to the people who do not know the history, and turn up regularly on threads, (there was at least two this week), looking to find out where they could buy items from Leader/Trailer ect.
"I've just heard an album by ..... ......., but I can't find any of their older stuff".
I was in a position to buy many of these first or even second time round, (but even I have gaps I'd like to fill among the gray covered Leaders which included many source singers, some from wax cylinder recordings), and many are not so fortunate.
I don't know why they are not being made available, but I have it on good authority that the masters are deteriorating rapidly, that worries me.
love, john.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 11:05 AM

Guest:

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word guest in a good dictionary and then start behaving like one. I don't think that it's any of your business to tell us what we should or should not discuss in our forum.

This thead started because someone thought that it was a good idea to post as many of the facts as we had about this particular situation. If you have any facts to contribute, please do so. Otherwise, shut up.

Les

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:55 AM

As I've said before, Guest, you are a hypocrite.

The only person persuing a jihad is yourself, and it's an anti-English one. As those who recognise you from your r.m.f./uk.m.f. postings will know.

Oh, and can you please cite a single instance of someone who knows what's in the Bulmer collection and doesn't believe it includes national treasures. For starters it includes the Bill Leader's various recordings of "source" performers. You demand high standards - of evidence and ethics - from others but apply no such checks on your own outpourings.

Ian C - you are, of course, right and I should heed your advice. Perhaps when I stop being hopping mad at this anglophobic woman's lies and distortions I will manage to do so. Until then I apologise for prolonging the agony.

Regards,

George

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:53 AM

GUEST : only you disagree about what is suitable for debate in this public forum - obviously anything you disagree with. Is this why you are so paranoid as to introduce terms such as 'jihad' to the debate. GeorgeH and others set out the situation clearly and factually - we are now discussing this. Your comments - along with anonymous letters and phonecalls - should be treated in the manner they deserve.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

Noreen states:

"If Mr Bulmer released the rights, which you agree he should do, there would be no problem."

That's right.

Where we disagree is over what is appropriate debate in public forums when we don't get our own way, and people (in this case Bulmer), don't do what we think they should do.

This is the fifth time since the Folk Roots article appeared about Nic Jones, that I've seen this happen in on-line folk music forums. And I don't even follow these threads (which generally always fall under a "Nic Jones" header of one sort or another), or the folk music forums that closely.

Personal vendettas and jihads have no place in these forums, and their appearance seems to result in just the sort of thing we've seen here. Everyone gets all up in arms about a person who isn't there to defend themselves, then someone makes a so-called "joke" about paying the asshole (sic) a little visit, etc etc etc.

It's sickening. Enough is enough.

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: IanC
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

Hey

Can we all cool this. The last ?15 posts have said literally nothing. I for one was reading the information and quite interested because it was a situation I had previously known nothing about. I'm not sure I'm coming back to this thread again. It's just a private slanging match.

Read what you've written and honestly ask yourselves what it is contributing.

Thanks
Ian

Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:43 AM

Small group of people

I talk to quite a lot of people involved in the UK folk scene both here on Mudcat and out there in the real people. Many of these people think it's a shame that Nic Jones' work, as well as the work of many other singers and musicians has been unavailable because of Mr Bulmer. Many more would like the opportunity to find out more about these early recordings, but come to folk music later than me. I'm fortunate enough to have the recordings in question on vinyl, although I would like to replace them with CDs as the vinyl copies are well-worn.

In my opinion nobody is using facts to whip up hysteria. The facts do bring out strong feelings in people, though. I agree that threats of bodily harm have no place in this forum, but I don't believe that it was meant seriously.

Now if you want to see a really 'small group of people' hold a meeting of 'Bulmer defenders'.

Les Ward (that's my name)