Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: radriano
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 03:52 PM

Abby, this is your conscience speaking. You must post, you must post, you must post....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: MMario
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 03:06 PM

yes! Please!

Subject: Lyr Add: HOB-I-DERRY-DANDO
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 02:55 PM

Richard: A more typical rendering of the chantey style would be:

I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo
Hob-y-derri-dando
All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo
Can-y-gan-y-eto
See her rolling through the water
Jane, sweet Jane
I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter

Jane, Jane, come to the glen,
To sing praise to Siani Fach Fwyn


that "Can-y-gan-y-eto" line, per sian, is a garbled version of the 3rd line of one Welsh version: Dyma ganu eto. (Duh-mah GAN-ee e-to) or (lit.) 'Here's the singing of it again.' - [Similar to the English line you give.]

The Edward Jones (1794) publication and subsequent Brinley Richards one will tell you ..."Hai down i'r deri danno," - (come let us hasten to the oaken grove) is the burden of an old song of the Druids. The old English song, "Hie down down derry down" &c.," is probably borrowed from the Druidical song." But "Hob y deri danno" literally means, "The swine (or pig) under the oaks." It's basically a nonsense phrase these days, but was once a come-on ..."Meet me under the oak, honey!" The town oak was the meeting-place in general - much like a village square where the youngsters hang out.

Does anyone want me to post the full 8-page file, bawdy verses & all? Actually, quite a few people worked on it and contributed verses and versions and explanations.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:51 AM

yep. Before my time (in Wales, anyway) but it was a variety show. Not sure if Sian Phillips didn't do some of her earliest professional work on it (or something similar).

Sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 05:24 AM

Thread creep warning: wasn't Hob-i-derry-dando also the name of a Welsh radio or tv programme in the early '60s? I was in Cardiff 1963-1966 and it seems to ring a bell.
RtS (damn CRS)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 04:38 AM

Hi, Abby. Nice to hear from you. I looked through my various computer files, but I've changed machines since then and looks like the info has gone walk-about. Or I need more time to sift!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:26 PM

Hi, sian,

Yes, we did a full treatice on it then. We developed the song as a chantey, a north and a south Wales love song, through to the ironic Cosher Bailey and through to the rugby/hasher bawdy verses. Good fun. I do still have the full file with 8 or so versions and extra verses. I think I reposted it here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:11 AM

I've often wondered where the common "Down a down, hey down a down", and "Derry down" choruses came from. But why did a Welsh chorus get attached to English songs? And are there any other nonsense choruses that can be explained in this way? (Too ray aah, fol the diddle daa etc.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:30 PM

Re: Hob Y Derri Dando.

The Welsh sailors mainly from the North of Wales sang this shanty. You are right in that Nefyn is on the North side of the Llyn Peninsular. The Welsh version also mentions Pwllheli. Prof J.Glynne Davies says that there also was a South Wales version? Baggyrinkle (Swansea Shantymen) sing the English translation of Welsh verses featured in another Welsh capstan shanty, "Mochyn Du",which in translation means "Black Pig". They sing the Welsh language chorus from a version that Stan Hugill collected from an old Aberdovey seaman and which is included in his book "Shanties Of The Seven Seas". The folk process naturally like most folk songs, brings in many versions as we can see in this thread.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:13 PM

There are actually two Hob y Deri Dando-s , a North Wales and a South Wales one. I provided a lot of info to one of the Usenet groups some years ago, which I think Abby Sale copied to Mudcat (I wasn't a member at the time).

The phrase that's boggling you is Siani Fach Fwyn. (Shannee Vach Vooeen - with the ch as in the German, ie. Bach) and means Gentle Little Sian (note: female), Sian being Jane in Welsh.

Maybe someone can dredge up the old thread ... ? The Druid thing (ie. *real* druids is, umm, tenuous) But the druids did worship the Oak. Pigs used to be grazed in oak groves to feed on the acorns.

Sian not under the oaks ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:54 PM

Thanks

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:50 PM

"Nevin" - probably = Nefyn, on the Lleyn peninsula in North Wales.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:42 PM

This is very interesting. Thanks all. I wonder if I should do this for every song I sing that is not some obvious contemporary thing.

One of the things I miss about folk clubs is that people used to explain the songs. Now they just sing them, usually confusing the author and the best known performer of the song, and if giving information getting it wrong (as usually happens with "Athenrae").

Mind you my trouble and strife (significant other for those who don't speak rhymer) says Lloyd didn't know half of what he let on, so perhaps it's just the rose tinted specs of time!

I have had a quick serach, and can't find "Nevin" either. Ideas on that?? Is it some really obvious place I ought to be able to find in 10 minutes?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:44 PM

There is a set at Lesley Nelson's site: Joy Upon Thy Bright Cheek Dances (Hob Y Deri Dando)  Text and tune from William Cole's 1961 anthology; he points out that Hob Y Deri Dando means the pig under the oaks in Welsh.  He also states that the tune is related to Hai Down ir Deri Dando, and unfortunately adds, "which is an old song of the Druids"(!).  There is also a link to a set in Welsh (in Barry Taylor's Tunebook), with another English text which is not a translation of it.  There are quite a few websites which carry the two last texts, and midi; they appear all to have been lifted from Barry's site, mostly without acknowledgment.

A tune appeared in Davidson's Musical Miracles: Two Hundred Welsh Airs for a Shilling (1859, reprinted Llanerch, 1990s) as Hob Y Deri Dando: Away My Herd.  I recall singing a version (in English, of course) at school in the early 1960s; it would have been from a "Singing Together" pamphlet.  Unfortunately, it's not in any of those that I still have, and I don't now recall whether it was a form of the shanty or of one of the more genteel sets on which I presume the shanty was loosely based.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:22 PM

I'd guess Shanny Vach is Sioni fach (little Johnny), but I don't know about the van/voin bit.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:08 PM

"Shanny Vach Voin" -looks like a free rendition of the phrase Shan Van Vocht from the Irish séan bhean bhocht(?), meaning "the old woman".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Stewie
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:02 PM

It's a Welsh capstan shanty and, like many shanties, probably does have to mean much at all. Hugill gives a Welsh version, a translation and verses with English words. He gives no explanation for 'Shanny Vach Voin', but it could well be, as you suggest, an English attempt at Welsh. I am sure someone will be along who knows.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 11:46 AM

All those sound right.

Now what's "Shanny Vach Voin"?

It sounds as if it might be a translitteration of something from one of the Gaelic languages. Sort of like "Shanachie".

And what is the perishing thing about?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Stewie
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:37 AM

Years ago, I used the Elliotts' version in a workshop. I got the chorus part from Hugill who quotes it from 'Saltwater Ballads' as:

Jane, Jane come to the glen
To sing the praise to Shanny Vach Voin

For the first line of the third stanza, we had: 'You, Jack Hughes, and the miller Griffin'.

For the fourth line of the fourth stanza, we had: 'Like a cart wheel I'll keep turning'.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: HOB-I-DERRY-DANDO
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 07:35 AM

Collected from an Elliot Family album and I could not find it in the digitrad, so here it is
If anyone has any idea what it means - do post!

ALso if anyone can produce a better word for "vac-van" please do so.

HOB-I-DERRY-DANDO

I'll sing bass and you sing solo
Hob-I-derry-dando
It's all about the Marco Polo
Let us sing again and boys
See her rolling through the water
Jane, sweet Jane
I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van.

CH: Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

Sally Brown she's a bright mulatto
Hob-I-derry-dando
She drinks rum and she chews tobacco
Let us sing again and boys
Sally Brown what is the matter?
Jane, sweet Jane
She's a lovely girl but I can't get at her
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

CH

You Jack Hughes and the miller gripping
Hob-I-derry-dando
Caught a shark in the reach of Nevin
Let us sing again and boys
All thye wanted was a pie-dish
Jane, sweet Jane
For to wash their bit of sharkfish
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

CH

They brew good brown beer in Nevin
Hob-I-derry-dando
It's both food and drink in Nevin
Let us sing again and boys
When I quench my thirsty yearning
Jane, sweet Jane
Like a card we'll all keep turning
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

CH

---

Also see: Hob y Deri Dando