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Unfriendly folk musicians in pubs
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:34 AM To me the idea that the music is essentially for musicians, when it IS in public place is pure conceit. The complaint here however is not coming from a "punter" but from a fellow musician........ |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Peg Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:11 AM well, speaking as someone whose instrument is her voice, and keeping in mind that singing is quite simply a quieter sound than a fiddle or flute or drum or accordion or bouzouki or banjo or mandolin or pennywhistle, I do not think it is unreasonable that the other musicians take a break and sit silently when an unaccompanied singer does a song. I am more comfortable in song only sessiuns but there aren't many of them But when I attend an instrumental sessiun, I find I am a LOT more comfortable if there is someone I know there who KNOWS I am a singer and who just might ASK me to sing (thereby letting the other instrumentalists know that at least one of their number thinks my song might be worthy of a few monents of silence), or someone I might feel comfortable asking if a song would be welcome. Otherwise I sit and listen, or play my drum or whistle if I have it with me. Sometimes an instrumentalist will apologize that the vibe of the sessiun that night does not seem conducive to a song and that maybe it will settle down and that will be appropriate (I appreciate that consideration, because it means this person is thinking of soemone else's feelinsg and the success of the sessiun--sometimes they say this before the subject of a song is broached, sometimes in answer to a query). As for instruments or voices accompanying an unaccompanied singer; well, under some circumstances this is acceptable. usually not, because usually those who choose to jump in and accompany a solo singer either don't know the song and just want to be part of a soft sound so they can stand out, or they want to sing harmony and are no good at it but feel the need to practic ewith you with no regard for your tempo or sometimes even the KEY you are singing in. BUT when an instrumentalist plays softly and really enhances the solo (after waiting to see if this is a song which would do well with bit of accompaniment; to just jump in without seeing where the singer is going in term sof an irregular, free-form tempo or recitative style is rude I think), it can be lovely. Similarly, if someone starts to sing harmony and does it WELL and in a way which does not overshadow the soloist (I remember Animaterra adding some GORGEOUS harmonies to a song I did at a Mudcat gethering; then when I did a song later she started to sing along, then figured out it probably would not work as well, owing to the darkness of the song and the rather inscrutable rhythm I was using, and respectfully listened to the rest of it. Now that is someone who is very talented but respectful enough to know when she is adding something and when she could get more out of the experience by listening), then that can also be lovely. And some song sessiuns seem to want singers to sing songs with choruses that everyone can sing along on. Which can be nice (Old Songs seemed to be like this), but why not allow a singer once in a while to sing completely alone if their song calls for it? Of course one can sing something obscure that no one knows and probably won't have to worry about anyone trying to sing along (I know at least one instrumentalist in Boston who does this a lot with tunes no one has heard of, and I swear it is so he can play solo!); then again there was a woman who used to come to the singers' club who would sing these off-key arpeggio type things to WHATEVER anyone was singing! Most annoying... I think awareness and some modicum of sensitivity is what is called for...and trying to monitor one's own ego and what part it serves, if things are not going as one likes them to...
my opinion, for what it is worth, Peg kick-ass singer, on occasion ;)
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:36 AM There's nothing "precious" in singing without an instrumental accompaniment -
The 'preciousness' I was referring to was the expectation that a group of people gathered to make music together should not be able to do this because the individual singers/players insist on 'performing' and useing them only as an audience.
When folk insist on doing this, at such a gathering, I would just like them to recognise that if everyone present insisted on doing the same thing, there would not be any time to make music together, which is after all the object at these affairs?
It does not seem to be generally recognised that it is only the other people not execising this right, that enables others to 'perform' to them.
As Bert said earlier I wonder how many of these people, sometimes after talking all through the ensemble music, then leave after doing 'their spot'? Nor should these be turned into 'making music together' sessions. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Noreen Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:30 AM Exactly what I wanted to say, McG, expressed more clearly than I could have. Thank you. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:28 AM Sessions are for musicians - and singers are musicians just as much as anyone with a manufactured instrument, they are just using a different instrument. Just about all good sessions I have ever been to some of the time there'll be a person either singing or playing a tune on their own.
That may be because they are so good, or doing something so difficult, people prefer not to try to join in and risk spoiling it; sometimes it's because the person isn't sure enough of what they are doing to welcome the distraction of an accompaniment; sometimes it's because it's an unfamiliar tune, and the rest have the common sense to listen to it a bit before they feel ready to come in.
Sometimes it's a way of giving respect to a song - typically in an Irish session when someone with a small voice sings a sean nos song.
There's nothing "precious" in singing without an instrumental accompaniment - it's the first and most straightforward and natural way to sing, not some strange affectation. Yes, in most sessions there's an unspoken understanding that people are welcome to join in the music - but not if they've been asked not to. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:16 AM I think that is exactly what is read as unfriendliness. Whether that is its intention does not really matter. To me the idea that the music is essentially for musicians, when it IS in public place is pure conceit. The complaint here however is not coming from a "punter" but from a fellow musician........ |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: forty two Date: 18 Aug 01 - 07:11 AM Sessions are for musicians. If they happen to occur in a pub (as they usually do) so be it. But the music is essentially for the musicians and the punters in the pub are secondary to the session. If they are there, they can enjoy it. It is a common fact that sessions do tend to be fairly introspective - a happening amongst musicians; what goes on around the session is usually fairly irrelevant. Now that can sometimes be read as unfriendliness - I don't believe it is intended to be. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 01 - 02:43 AM If you perform, you have every expectation of play or singing your song the way you want it..........
To insist on doing this where the expectation is that the people present will play and sing together, is a little hard on them, is it not? Stay at home and do it exactly as you want it.
The way to look at it is just to accept the way the music is made, at that moment in time..... It may sound horrible sometimes? ...Sometimes it may sound wonderful?
You won't know which one of those it was, until it is finished. Does not the way forward lie somewhere between not being 'precious' and not being bad-mannered? |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Brendy Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:56 PM I was sitting in a session in Oslo a few years back...no names mentioned, as to the venue...but someone asked me to do John Martyn's 'I don't want to know about evil'. Dezy, my mate, who is a trad flute player, but well known for his forays into Ian Anderson country, came in somewhere in the middle of the 2nd verse, accompanied by this other cove, who insisted on putting an A7 in everywhere I was putting the proper AMINOR7 in. He also exaggerated the rhythm; playing, as he was with one of those awful three cornered plectrums, that turned every stroke into a declaration of war. Having people join in, is fine; and Dezy hadn't heard the song before. I eventually had to stop, because the unaestheticism of it all, got to me in the end. B. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:37 PM Singing with an accompaniment is different from singing without one. It's not "precious" to prefer to sing without an accompaniment when you know that this particular case an accompaniment will make it harder for you to sing the song the way you feel you can sing it best.
And that's not just when an accompanist isn't skilled. A brilliant accompanist can get in the way of a singer.
And the same can apply to joining in with other instruments when a singer is accompanying themselves - if it's a song you're breaking in it can really make you completely lose it to have someone come. Especially of course if they assume that the tune and the timing is slightly different from what it actually is intended to be.
That doesn't mean joining in is wrong - much of the time it's just what is wanted. But the basic rule must always be, if the person singing or playing indicates they don't want it, don't do it. And don't assume it's vanity on their part, it's much more likely to be the opposite. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: John Routledge Date: 17 Aug 01 - 08:23 PM IVAN - I have no problem sitting down with a musician and being accompanied (by prior agreement).Songs written to be performed that way sound better that way! Harmonies can be wonderful and I have enjoyed harmonies added by the audience. Indeed many songs are dramatically enhanced by added harmonies. There has not been a problem as yet with musicians joining in with me uninvited probably because most of the places I sing in accept solo song as valid in its own right. This to me is the real issue. Happy singing to you all. John
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: IvanB Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:54 PM I believe if a singer requests there be no accompaniment to his/her song it would be poor manners to join in instrumentally. But, Geordie, does your imprecation hold true for other voices as well (especially if the song is one which lends itself to harmonies)? I enjoy singing unaccompanied at times, but welcome other voices, especially if they have harmonies to add. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:24 PM I was in the local Irish society do last Fri night playing with some of the people I play with on a Tuesday night (strictly instrumental). I decided to sing Sam Hall, our regular guitar player from the session looked at me, I nodded and she accompanied me - first time she ever tried that with me and it worked well. She is good of course but the look and the nod are probably well worth noting. Jon |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: John Routledge Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:57 PM Richard - Your response leaves me speechless - Almost. Geordie(who sings songs that were written to sound best without accompaniement)Broon
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Denise:^) Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:49 PM An instrument is different becuase every song wasn't written to be sung accompanied. For example, the song I mentioned, "Lovely Agnes," sounds stiff when someone plays along. The only way I can think to describe it is "a loose 3/4 time." There are subtle pauses, etc., that get lost when it's played accompanied. Sometimes, I just like to lead a song unaccompanied so that I can really appreciate the wonderful harmonies everyone adds. ...but I wasn't meaning to complain about you! I was referring to some actual events I'd experienced. I know that, when I'm singing/playing, I'll either invite folks to join in before I begin, or folks will catch my eye as I go, and I'll nod if I'd like them to join. Seriously, I've have many more pleasant experiences than bad ones--the bad ones just make better stories! Denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:08 PM I seem to be getting a bit of flak here about joining in with the unaccompanied singer. Let me refer back. I said you need to get the feel for if you can or not, and I said that if you join in with one you have to be good enough to follow. Subject to that I do tend to feel that unaccompanied singer who want to prohibit anyone joining in may be being a little bit overprecious. If I were to join in vocally on a harmony on a chorus or refrain and get hushed I think I'd feel a bit put out. Why is an instrument so different? |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Deni Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:41 AM Hi all, Great thread, with loads of advice for what to look out for in future and when organising things!! JudeL- You were the first person from Mudcat I've ever seen at a session, that I didn't know before, (if you catch my drift.) I intended to speak to you on the night, but tehre were so many people around all chatting at once... I thought you had a really beautiful voice, and there were a good many fine songers on that night Rock Chick Don't let the buggers grind you down. Cheers Deni
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:13 PM I think that last applies more in singing sessions than in tune sessions. I mean, having someone formally in the chair carrying the responsibility for ensuring that things go along well and that newcomers get in. With tune sessins I think it's easier to have a more improvised pattern, in keeping with the music.
Bringing in nnewcomers and keeping things going along are two separate tasks actually, and it can be better to have two people doing them. Preferably in telepathic communication, or what feels like it. But essentially, everyone has a shared responsibility to help newcomers and shy people have a chance. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Melani Date: 16 Aug 01 - 06:55 PM Unfortunately, some people, musicians or otherwise, are just jerks. I just returned from my first time at a week-long event, where much to my surprise, I found that people playing one type of music were rather arrogant and snotty, while another group playing different stuff were perfectly friendly. (This is all folk music, mind you.) I am not a good enough musician to really participate in even the friendliest instrumental session, but did participate in about four different song circles, where I managed to get in one song at each. In all but one case, where strict rotation was observed, the singing was dominated by the people who already knew each other and were known to the person leading the circle. I guess that is only to be expected, but it has certainly made me appreciate the inclusiveness of my "home" chantey session, which is pretty much the only one I have attended regularly. Chanteyranger spends a good deal of time trying to make sure that shy newcomers have the opportunity to lead a song if they want to, and sometimes moderating when the regulars all try to sing at once. It seems to me that it's really important to have someone actually running the session, rather than just letting it grow organically and hoping for the best, and it's really nice if the leader has an eye to including everyone. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,A regular with reasons below Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:55 PM rock chick, I'm wondering where the pub is that you went to. At a club not outside the area you define, also welcoming floor performers, and where the booked performers, and their own established performers are very good, I was told (on first entering) that you only got to be a performer after they got to know you as one during open mike sessions, which were only in August, when I'm away. I couldn't go to a nearby pub night, where open mike was advertised, as it didn't fit in with life, but the house singers there were part of the same group. I would ask for details via pm, so as to avoid the particular pub, but feel the need for anonymity - since some of the club members (who were friendly in that context)know me through my job, and could identify me, and it could be awkward. Besides which, I wouldn't want to be rude about a system which was working well, to the liking of the longstanding members on a very short acquaintance. Even though there was little opportunity for the audience to join in, either. Nearly signed it.... |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:58 PM I had wonderd the same McGrath and also about the possibility of someone singing/playing something considered inappropriate for the event - although even when that happens, it costs nothing to let the person finish and be polite about matters. Which ever way I look at this one, I can see a lot of rudeness. Sessions like you say are funny things though and I expect many of us have at times not been as communicative as we could be to help newcommers - it seems that the trap of expecting someone new to just understand a particular sessions' unwritten rules and customs and then to feel upset when the newcommer is "out of line" is an easy one to fall in to. Jon |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Denise:^) Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM I think it's only decent manners to ask before you start playing along with an unaccompanied singer. I play three instruments, myself, and if I want to be accompanied, I will! When I sing unaccompanied, it's because I've made that choice. Nightmare open stage of all time: I was singing Sally Rogers' "Lovely Agnes," a song that was written to be sung unaccompanied, and this guy walks up to the stage and starts strumming, "OOM--pa--pa, OOM--pa--pa..." Now, "Agnes" IS in 3/4 time, but it's a loose 3/4, not strict waltz time. If you play it that way, the singer has no where to take a breath! I could have easily slapped him silly. (I didn't!) Denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM The other awkwardness thta can arise is when a newcomer has a different sense of timing about putting in new songs in an unstructured session.
What I mean is, in any session there tends to be a certain instinctive gap between one tune or song stopping and a new one coming in. Time to draw breath, and look around, and the body language shows whose going to do something next.
But you sometimes get a stranger who comes in and doesn't notice this, and noone explains because nobody thinks consciously about this kind of thing. And they either burst into a song or a tune prematurely, or when they've finished do another straight on because nobody has jumped din soon enough; or they hang back and don't give the signal they want to do something, and don't ever get in.
RC's experience sounds like she was just up against bad manners - but conceivably something like that could have come into it. If the rude fella had signalled he was going to do his thing, and was lumbering into action when you started, and he's thinking "she's nicked me spot, I won't let her do that." Still bloody rude of him though.
It all looks spontaneous and unstructured in a pub session - but in fact there's a structure there all the time. And it varies from session to session and place to place. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:32 PM I agree with the majority, you really did hit on a bunch of ignorant so and so's rock chick. I usually sing unaccompanied but really like it when a guitar or melodeon join me , i think it improves my timing which can be suspect. I sing with a friend in a twp part harmony sometimes, and it can be frustrating when the crowd join in not only the chorus but also the verses, however, I also see that as part of what music is about, connecting through music to other people, so on these occassions i put up and shut up. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: smallpiper Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM And you can still hear selby? Must have been good box players! |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: selby Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:29 PM not in our session there where 13 yes 13 boxes in full swing last night plus guitars banjo's & whistles Keith |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: rock chick Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:21 PM I totally agree with you KD,devious is an understatement, thats also discrimination against the box musician ! that could open a whole load of worms!!! |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM That's cunning and devious 42. Amazing. Kris |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: forty two Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:18 PM Generally to be a musician is also to be a general all round nice guy. But yes there are the exceptions. No names mentioned here, but I have a story of a couple of friends (fiddle and two row player) who went to a session which was tuned half a tone up. The fiddle could obviously re-tune but no option was left for the box player who just had to sit out. Tuning up can happen in sessions where the locals keep getting swamped with visitors. I am not defending it by any means - but it does happen. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: John Routledge Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:55 AM Sorry to be pedantic Richard but is "ask" good enough. I would I feel somewhat upset if someone accompanied me when I sang. Is this an unreasonable point of view? John |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Grab Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:42 AM In a rather lively place I go to where there's no defined order to sing in (it's up to you to take your turn), I've had ppl cut in with their own song 2 seconds after I've started a song. It's usually just bcos it takes 5-10 seconds for the room to quieten down for a singer though, and the other singer hasn't noticed that you've started! At least, the others are mostly nice ppl, so I choose to assume that's the reason... ;-) Cutting you dead mid-song is right out, though - sod 'em, there's other places to play, and make sure anyone you meet at other local sessions knows to avoid this one. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 16 Aug 01 - 10:35 AM RC - they was bleedin' rude then. It amazes me when people just start up a different song when someone is already playing. Well done for keeping going though. And for asking him why. Doesn't sound like they deserve a second chance. I bet they manage to put a lot of people off completely - which is unforgiveable. I'm sure they're in the minority though - I hope.... Kris |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:46 AM RC, that sounds bad.
Geordie Broon, an unaccompanied singer can always ask not to be accompanied. Specified is a bit strong.
As I said on another thread one of the best surprises I got was the time I was doing a shanty (in B) and got a guitar accompaniment with a sort of bluesy flavour. It was brilliant (but the guy who did it is a hell of a player). It is not necessary to scorn instruments joining in waht would normally be unaccompanied. Both sides want to get the feel of it a bit. A bodhran on something doe with failry free timing could be tricky - but I know some bod players who might be able to pull it off. It's usually better not to pre-judge. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: JudeL Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:28 AM Don't know about the violence thing, but I was there when the "musicians" took over the one bar out of either pub that wasn't already a musician's session. I say took over because it was not a case of them taking a turn to play a tune in between the singers - because they didn't even have the manners to stop playing during songs that it was obvious that they didn't even know, but effectivly dictated both new melody and timing to the singer. One funny note was the way one cheesed off singer dealt with it, i.e. each time the "musician" started playing along, the singer changed the key in which he was singing, after the third time the "musician" got the hint and stopped trying to take over the song! But must agree the hallway may have been a pain for the staff but it had good accoustics. Jude |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Noreen Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:12 AM I agree, rc, they just seem bloody rude- and don't give them the honour of your company and talent again! |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:47 AM Yes Jon - and the ones that do three songs when the customary is two, so then everyone after them does 3 as well, so that the second part of the evening is all squashed up and no-one knows whether to do 1, 2 or 3. Ten minute introductions littered with name-droppings...they're a good way of hogging time... (See I knew I was in bitch-mode). The body-language point is true too (Shambles) - there's a guy at our open-mic thing that sits with his eyes closed and a sort of pained expression - & I'm never sure whether he likes what I'm singing, whether he is totally oblivious or whether he's feeling mortified on my behalf. My interpretation depends on how I feel at the time - which goes to show how your own mood can affect your interpretation of other people's behaviour (leaping back to the specifics of the thread). Deni - you're right - its no bed of roses. - which reminds me : someone gave me a rose the other week because they liked a blues song I'd just sung, when I got home I told Mark - who smiled indulgently and pointed out it was a dog rose..(I knew what he was trying to say). Kris |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: rock chick Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:34 AM Hi there King Brilliant, (Kris) well it went like this, visited a pub, took my instruments and sat down with the other musician, asked if it was ok to join in....(meaning when it came round to me)no responce just shrugged shoulders and the look, still thought ok, take the shrugged shoulders responce meaning if you want to. It came to my turn so I started playing, well the person next to me , a regular I think, started to play somthing completly different a couple of mins after I had started, I thought sod you so I kept on playing, LOUDER, he stoppped after a while and allowed me to finish. At the end of the evening I asked him why he had done that, his reply was, Shrugged shoulders. No these people aren't shy they are just bloody rude, and I told him so. Still won't go there again. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:29 AM KingBrilliant, then there's the type that never support a folk club on singers nights but turn up and expect to perform on a guest night. Then there's the night when your pushed for time if everyone is to get a turn so you ask people do 2 songs instead of the customary 3 - there is always someone who will dig out the 2 longest songs in their repertiore or will find other means to make sure they get their 3 songs worth of time... Jon |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Deni Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:54 AM Hello all, Interesting this. I heard a guy at small, but not-so-sleepy South Zeal, Nr Okehampton, Devon, remark upon the fact that there were 25 musicians all playing along happily during the Dartmoor Folk Festival.
HOWEVER (and I must shout that) there were a couple of unpleasant incidents I heard about too. One where a second bar was taken over by another group of musicians and one where the bar designated for singers was taken over, in the second pub. In both incidents there was abuse and in one case violence.
The singaround we went to was in the Oxenham Arms, and we ended up singing is this ancient manor-house-type hallway. The session was wonderful and the acoustics gorgeous, even if we had to make the staff, (who were dodging around us with trays laden with coffee and meals.) cross. HYDE FOLK CLUB NEWS,VIEWS & REVIEWS...POST YOURS TOO http://beehive.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/hydefolk
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:44 AM RC - were they really horrid, or just not actively friendly. I'd love to know what they actually did. Sometimes a group comes across as unfriendly just because no one person took it on themselves to be welcoming. Or perhaps they are shy? Sounds stupid I know, but a lot of folkie types are actually quite shy on a personal level. Maybe if you gave it another shot they might appear completely different. Worth a try? Bert - I know what you mean about those who leave just after their go - but what I hate even more are those that can't be bothered to turn up until the very end of the evening & then expect to finish the evening with an extra-long set of interminable songs for which we are all expected to be duly grateful. Once or twice is forgivable - but every week started to look like arrogance.... Wow - I feel better for getting that off my chest. Must be my day for being a bitch! Cheers Kris |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:09 AM On the same note of agreement. Why do session players insist on almost fighting to occupy the centre of the room, thus presenting their backs to later arrivals?
If you arrive early and sit with your back to the wall and face in, you will find that someone will sit in front with their back toward you, or face you with their back to everyone else? No matter how friendly individuals may actually be, our body language alone may make a visitor not wish to stay and find out? |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Bert Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:18 AM Hi rock chick, I agree with you, there is a lot of bad manners amongst musicians. At almost every open mike you attend you'll find a good proportion of singers/players, just up and leave immediately after they've finished THEIR turn. In my opinion that behavior labels them as arrogant, inconsiderate assholes. But here at Mudcat we do strive to act with a little more concern for our fellow entertainers. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: rock chick Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:22 PM Hi there Richard B I Will try to get down to see u at Hazlitt Folk a.s.a.p will let u know when, thanks for the info. If I near your way Noreen I will be in touch, it would be good to meet some Mudcat'ers :-) Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Noreen Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:52 PM UK here too, rock chick, near Manchester. Bit far for an evening out for you, but if you're in the area I'll find you several friendly pub sessions. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: John Routledge Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:45 PM Richard - Presumably singers have the right to specify no accompaniement :0) John |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:41 PM Well, ROck chick, come to Hazlitt FOlk in Maidstone at the Old House at Home in Pudding Lane Maidstone, 830 pm Mondays. 20 minutes down the A20 from South London (30 if you keep the speed limit). GBP 1.50 entry, more on guest nights. If you really want to play electric, bring your own amp but keep it quiet adn you'll have to carry it up a long flight of stairs. Not sure the power socket is very reliable, and CLive's organ has first call on it. We don't have a PA rig. We operate (except on guest nights) 2 songs (or tunes or whatever) each out in front and joining in is normal including (well, sometimes, not always, get the feel for it) with unaccompanied singers if you are good enough to follow them. Bodhrans, harps, all welcome. Don't talk while "turn's on", and blow smoke away from no-smokers but you don't HAVE to go out of the room to smoke. Can't say fairer than that. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: rock chick Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:28 PM Kernow John, I agree with you sometimes I like to sing uncompaied and it's very offputting if someone plays along, as for the couple who took unbridge... they may have been good musiciians, in which case they should have understood, anyway it was their loss, not yours. Raggytash, my use od caps was purly lazy, I had already typed everthing, saw it was all in caps and well couldn't be bothered to change it, nothing more than that, nothing less...........mind you, I had not be long back from the hospital having had two screw put into my upper jaw so maybe, just maybe I was feeling a bit p...... off, who knows? Noreen I'm in outskirts of Kent, London, England, how's about yourtself? |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Linda Kelly Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:49 AM Gosh Dorothy you've been in the sun too long haven't you? I tend to agree with Rock Chick about some sessions/clubs seeming unfriendly. I have been to a fair few and belong to 2 folk clubs. one is very very friendly and the other has taken about one and a half years to settle in. Now everyone there is chatty and very friendly, but it took a while. It doesn't help I suppose that the strict etiquette in some clubs of no talking is not conducive to formng nstant relationships-the music however is wnderful. So really rock chick I think its a case of keep trying, and if you are able to go to as many festivals as you can, because you are sure to meet club people and they can break the ice wonderfully. |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:44 AM Why advertise like that? As someone suggested, it could be that the venue rather than the club is doing that. A second reason is that folk clubs like to maintain that open to all image - it sounds good but in some rare cases I suspect the claim is purely part of an ego trip... As an aside, I learned last night that I was part of a "clique", not one based on personalites in terms of egos or on musical ability - I fall short in that department compared to others and even a beginner would be welcome there but one based on music, i.e. you play the music they love (Irish Traditional and anyone can start their own tunes - no it has to all be our sets, everyone gets the same support) for the love of the music and try to have or develop some feeling for the dancers (real or imaginary) that the music is really about... Maybe that sounds too precious to some and I'm not into cliques but in this case, I feel quite honoured to belong to what I feel is a group of like minded people in terms of an approach to the music in a traditional music session (my own tastes for example are wider than just that, I enjoy "celtic rock", and other mixes too...). Jon |
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Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Mark Cohen Date: 15 Aug 01 - 05:13 AM rc, just remember that if you walk out the door of that pub, it's only a few steps to the ground! So don't be afraid to vote with your feet. Aloha, Mark |
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