Why are singer-songwriters called folksingers?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: SeanM
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 05:31 AM

*Dons hipwaders*
*adds snorkel*

OK, now that I'm ready to wade into this one...

First, as to the original question... My experience is that the s/s who choose to call themselves 'folk musicians' do so for a couple fairly recurrent reasons.

The most justified (in my mind) are those that do a majority of traditional material with occasional original or more recent numbers thrown in. Yes, they're still singer/songwriter for those numbers that are theirs, but they also play VERY heavily from the body of traditional music.

The opposite are those who only play original numbers. I've actually discussed this point with someone who does this and calls himself a folksinger. His view is that his songs are good enough to be 'folksongs' and thus he's a folksinger.

Of course, I think he's an idiot, but that's for discussion on another thread.

Most s/s folksingers seem to fall between these points, and in all honesty almost all that call themselves 'folksingers' come closer to the former than the latter.

Now... as to the 'what is folk' brouhaha...

I suggest that at this point, it's narrowminded to view 'folk' as a single descriptive. I rather think that folk consists of many parts, rather than just one. After all - look at 'Rock' as a descriptive label. Yes, that denotes someone following a persuasion of music that became popular first in the mid to late '50s. BUT, to actually describe the style they play in, you have to add "Acid Rock"... "Hard Rock"... "Soft Rock"... "Adult Contemporary Rock"... "Classic Rock"... etc. Each is a distinct subgenre - and if you don't believe that, then sit down some day and listen to The Who (Classic), followed by Napalm Death (Grindcore). I doubt that anyone would come out of that experience saying that all rock is the same (assuming they survived the transition.)

So where does that leave 'folk'? I'd say as scattered as the elements that make it up. In my mind, there's 'regional folk', consisting of the traditional songs of a given area that are absolutely specific to that area. Songs like "Men of Harlech" and other specific tunes come to mind. There's 'historic folk', for the songs that aren't in ready circulation, but are still kept alive by the archivists and groups that specialize in it. Also, I'd say there's a distinct "folk dance music" subgenre - songs that are meant as companion tunes to go with various dances.

The best part is, that like most other musical genres, NONE OF THEM ARE ABSOLUTELY EXCLUSIVE! That's part of why there is no steady and completely accepted answer to 'what is folk'. You can often tell when something isn't folk, and when something definitely is - but there's a lot out there that fits the description of 'folk' as well as other genres as well.

Heck, I lost myself somewhere in there. I guess that in my twisted little mind, the discussion of "who or what is folk" has as much a chance of resolution as "Is there a god(s)?" and other topics of endless debate. All fine for a debate over a pint or seven (and you all owe me now - Pay up!), but pointless to elevate the blood pressure.

And to Art's statement: I do see the point. There ARE too many idiots goign around who figure that singing about their navel lint and why their girl kicked them off of her couch is 'folk' so long as it's acoustic. However, I wouldn't say that the general umbrella of 'folk music' is in danger of being bastardized now any more than it's ever been. Kinda hard to hurt something that won't stay still long enough to be recognized, and the chaff will eventually be blown away. What's left will be the NEXT tradition.

M

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:38 AM

Jerry, I've had that happen now and then as well (someone jumping on you for playing a tune in the "wrong" key). Perhaps my mistake was always trying to discuss it with them in a polite manner rather than accepting that only a jerk would be that agressively critical. Problem is that I DO try to stick as close to the traditions that first got me interested in this kind of music.....not always successfully.

From a practical point of view, I often play old fiddle tunes on the mandolin, and if I don't have a guitar or something backing me up, I'll play it in the most 'resonant solo key'....with backup I'd probably play it in the 'original' key.

For some stupid reason I too have gotten involved in far too many discussions on 'who's a folksinger, and who's not'. I've come up with my own definition which I can live with....if someone has been influenced by traditional music, then they can probably call themselves 'folksinger', if their influences are pop, rock or contemporary songwriters, then why bother labelling themselves at all? Ninety percent of those DOING the labelling probably haven't a clue what's being discussed here, nor would they even be interested.

My business card has read "acoustic musician" for many years anyway.....which is certainly true.

Rick

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:53 PM

Dear 53, they are between country, rock and a hard place.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: 53
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:48 PM

they are in between country, and rock.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:32 PM

OK, let's try it this way. Folksonngs are called folksongs because they are representative of a folk, that is to say a group or culture. They differ from personal expression in this regard. Often, they lack the sophistication that more formal songs posess. This simplicity is an advantage in popular usage. When someone tells me that they dont know any folksongs, I tell them that they know hundreds. We all know hundreds of folksongs. They are our heritage. Nursery rhymes are folksongs. So are hymns, patriotic songs, school songs, Girl Scout songs, play songs, family favorites, parodies, most "dirty" songs, campfire songs, etc., etc., etc. The real clue is who sings the song. If a performer sings it to an audience, it aint. If the audience sings it to themselves, it is. So whem Bing Crosby sang White Christmas it was a lovely Irving Berlin number. When we sing White Christmas around a piano, it is a folksong that was written by Mr. Berlin. (Actually, Berlin wrote another song that became folk. God Bless America, indeed). You see, we dont determine what is and what is not folk. That privilage is left to the folk. They may decide to adopt a song as their own, like Robert Burns's Auld Lang Syne or Steven Foster's Oh Susanna. They are the judges, and, by they, I mean we. Popular music tastes change and popular music must change in response. This, in no way, affects the ritual needs of a people, which are served by the songs and legends of tradition. Of course, new groups will require their own anthems, but, contrary to current thinking, newer isn't always better. Folk music will live on, in spite of its lack of commercial popularity. It will survive within its own cultures if the cultures, themselves, survive. As for those communities that no longer exist, their songs will live through historians, ethnomusicologists, cultural anthropologists and plain old folksingers like me. Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 07:33 PM

Sometimes people categorise your songs by how you learnt them, sometimes by whether anyone knows who wrote them or not. It's debatable whether professional singer/songwriters are really folksingers at all or just troubadors and cabaret artists. But usually it just comes down to which rack the music store staff decide to put particular albums in....

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 06:04 PM

A folksong probably WAS written by one person who may have been the original singer. But it was kept alive by the fact that it was a subject that "spoke" to other singers and the tune was something that other people would walk away humming. If the song didn't do either, it never lived long enough to be a "folk" song.

There's plenty of singer-songwriter sh--, I mean, cr--, I mean, oh, STUFF out there that is going to die with the writer because nobody else can perform it.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 05:57 PM

Well, let it die then.

What goes around, comes around. I'd much rather see what I love cease to exist rather than have live in a bastardized and mongrelized form.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:24 PM

"Tedham Porterhouse" God, I love the sound of that. Whenever I hear it I think "This has gotta be a long-time personal friend of Bob Dylan, with a name like that...like Al Aronowitz or Jacques Levy or the late Allen Ginsberg."

I picture Tedham and Bob getting together over glasses of rare Scotch whiskey, and discussing oriental philosophy and antique cars...

It's just a complex of mine, that's all.

Love that name!

- LH

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:51 AM

Bill D,

You said, "Loreena McKinnet and Bob Dylan and Kate Wolf do something a bit different from Jeannie Robertson, Almeda Riddle, The New Lost City Ramblers, and Uncle Dave Macon."

I'll submit that Almeda Riddle, who mostly sang unaccompanied ancient ballads, did something VERY different from the New Lost City Ramblers who mostly recreated COMMERCIAL country music from the 1920s and '30s.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:32 AM

gee...you've saved me a lot of typing Allan...I was just about to launch into one of my patented tirades about beibg ABLE to go into a record store and find a bin where I could EXPECT to find the older. traditional songs that I like the best.

One more time...labels and categories need to mean SOMETHING in a relatively stable way. Whether the artists themselves misuse the labels, or lazy store managers lump the bins together, it still remains true that Loreena McKinnet and Bob Dylan and Kate Wolf do something a bit different from Jeannie Robertson, Almeda Riddle, The New Lost City Ramblers, and Uncle Dave Macon.....and I'd like to that difference recognized in some way that would allow ME to refer to my preferences without resorting to 2 paragraphs of disclaimers.

I'd like to be able to say "I mostly like traditional folk music" and NOT have anyone assume I mean Bob Dylan (who 'may' get to be trad in 40-50 years) and The Limelighters.......does anyone have ANY idea how I might do that?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 10:27 AM

Does anyone not recall when the record racks at the local chain store placed all recordings, regardless of genre, by any Black artists under the heading of "SOUL"? It was clearly an oversimplified way of categorizing music by the use of a racial characteristic, rather than by a careful examination of content.

The stores today often don't even bother with having a section for "FOLK". Many times a tremendous variety of music, including bluegrass, cowboy, traditional and others,) is jumbled into "COUNTRY". It is simpler that way. These people don't care about the finer points of the differences. Hell, they don't really seem to care about any points at all. The broad category is convenient for their purposes, plain and simple.

It seems to be the case as well when they actually do have a section for "FOLK". All sorts of things are lumped together that would most certainly cause a gasp from the folk purists. It is common to find Smithsonian collections in the same rack with Laura Nyro, The Weavers, and Lorenna Mckennitt.

These rack labels are there for the purpose of locating music that is something other than ROCK, JAZZ, CLASSICAL or COMEDY. If the artists' musical styles were more readily identified with any of those categories, that is where you would find them.

It would make no sense to have a "SINGER/SONGWRITER" label because this is also a broad definition which encompasses people who write and sing stuff that is NEW AGE, ROCK, COUNTRY, or that vaguely fits into any number of other categories.

And so, we are left with having S/S artists who are sometimes lumped into FOLK, among other things. The people who decide this often know absolutely NOTHING about the finer points of musical styles. They just want to put these artists somewhere!

The same holds true with the organizers and promoters of the S/S's. They have to advertise them as belonging some readily identifiable category. For them, the broader the label, the larger audience they hope to capture.

Labels are always with their limitations. It wasn't very many years ago when I, with great anticpation, tuned into a brand new radio station that claimed it was only going to play "ALTERNATIVE" music. I could hardly wait for their first broadcast! It didn't take long, of course, for me to discover that they defined, "alternative" rather differently than the way I did. Bummer, man!

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 09:28 AM

Words and labels are necessary to define what we're talking about. To often, they end up dividing people. A few years ago, I wrote a somewhat tongue-in-cheek article about The Last Folksinger. Let's face it, folks, we're all revivalists. How many of us have skinned a woodchuck? or gone down to the cider mill to have a little nip? Been a railroad engineer recently, or seen any train wrecks? Too often when I've told people I am a folksinger (not being a stickler for terminology myself... and I do a lot of traditional folk in a traditional style) they say, "What is folk music?" They're not looking for a two hundred response thread at Mudcat. They have no idea what I am talking about. We're not doing our job, folks! Traditional folk music isn't "ours." Traditional songs can speak to the guy who commutes into New York City every day and wears $200 wing-tip shoes.

A few years ago, I was playing Forked Deer (badly) of fiddle, and someone came up to me, very incensed. He was angry because I was playing it in a different key than everyone else does. I was playing it in the key that I was, because it was the only key I could play it in. He said, "Nobody plays Forked Deer in D".. or whatever key I was playing it in. I said, "they do, now."

Folk music should be FUN. If we just keep taking the music out to our rapidly diminishing audience, we will become preservations. For all the obvious lacks of the Kingston Trio, they brought a lot of people to folk music because it looked like it would be fun to play. Were they folksingers?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:57 AM

As an active participant(some say organiser) of a live music club(some say folk)I've seen many examples over the years of songs being mistaken for traditional. This is regarded by some writers as the ultimate accolade. Not all writers use the 'scene' as a springboard to 'better' things. I think the problem is that the word 'folk' is so general as to be meaningless. More accurate(though less convenient)words can always be found.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Gary T
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:16 AM

These are intersecting sets. Some, but not all, singer/songwriters are folksingers. Some, but not all, folksingers are singer/songwriters. Anyone who automatically calls singer/songwriters folksingers, or vice versa, is exhibiting extreme intellectual laziness.

The question "Why are singer/songwriters called folksingers?" is inherently fallacious if it means ALL singer/songwriters. If it means SOME singer/songwriters, the answer is simply either because they are indeed folksingers, or because whoever labeled them such doesn't care or know to make the distinction.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: GUEST,Ace
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 03:27 AM

"...we who hold to the older venerated views about this music and what it encompasses, must, seemingly, tolerate the presence of the myriads of way off-the-mark s/s troops in our midst..."

I'm sorry if I offend you, Art, but this statement encapsulates for me everything wrong with the folk scene. Music has to develop and change - much like a language - in order to be a living tradition. If you despise musicians and their music - be they s/s or musicians taking a modern slant to old traditions - because "it ain't how it were done in MY day," you are condemning folk music to a slow and dull death.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 02:48 AM

"I stay within the language of the tradition." That statement says a lot. And to answer Catspaws question ... of course they are still folk songs. Just because those particuliar songs are not necessarily sung right now doesn't dissqualify them. One of these days, I'm going to post a song that I believe was written by my great great Grandfather. He was a union soldier, in the Americam civil war, imprisoned at Andersonville. I found this song as a forward to his diary, written in 1886. Is this a folk song? It's over one hundred years old! Does anyone sing it? No one but me! Is it valuable> Damn right. It speaks to the horror that was Andersonville prison. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:51 AM

In my inflated opinion, a song that is never sung, not only isn't a folksong, it's not even a song. Folksongs are defined by their functions. We classify them worksongs or gospel songs or courting songs or dances or dirges or marches. We call them waltzes and polkas and hornpipes, cha-chas, tangos, the twist. When I perform a traditional song, I am aware that I am representing the culture that used it. I am not a purist. I stylize all my material, but I stay within the "language" of the tradition. Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:36 AM

I have neglected to introduce myself. I am a full time professional folksinger. I have been thus employed since the late 1950's. I write songs and I have had my work performed and recorded. I count many successful s/s's among my friends. They, for the most part agree with me. Of course, they all have respect and interest in preserving traditional music and lore. Ordinarily, I wouldn't care what the media want to call something, but I dont like kids thinking that folk music is just a style like Disco. Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:32 AM

Oh yeah.......I can see how this one is going to become interesting and we haven't dredged this up in awhile so I believe it may be time once again........

geeziz...did I say that?

........Anyway.........

I think of a flipside to it. There are a boatload of trad songs in the DT that still exist only because we (and others) have archived them, researched them, etc.......And there are some of those very songs that are never sung nowadays. No one has sung them except a handful of folkies in over 50 or 75 years. They are no longer withstanding "the test of time." Are they still folksongs because they used to be?

Just a twist......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:17 AM

Of course all songs are written by someone. It's not the writing that makes a song folk, it is how the community uses it. Silent Night is a composed song. WE even know who wrote it and when. It is a folk song because an identifiable group adopted it as their own. Happy Birthday is a composed song. It was, God help us, copyrighted, but it didnt become a folksong until folks sang it with a birthday cake chaser. Folksongs are unique. They are defined, not by their authors, but by their audiences. Folksongs are functional tools of communal practice. They are,as a rule, used in ritual. They may be employed to bolster a cause, to amuse and involve and educate (consider the A-B-C song that is sung to the tune of Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star). Woodie Guthrie didn't write folksongs but many of his songs became folksongs when they were sung by the very folks he was writing about. That's why This Land is Your Land is a folksong and The Great Philadelphia Lawyer is not.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:10 AM

This is a darned GOOD thread! It asks a good question ... for which there is no, one, simple answer. To some, the only true folksongs were written by "Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous." A few years ago, in the antique business, the lawful definition of an "antique" meant it qualified as at least 100 years old ... true! I agree that with Bob Dylan came the populiar use of the term "folksinger". So, is Woody Guthrie a folksinger? Again, darned good question. He certainly was whenever he sang traditional ballads and songs. So what do we consider him when he takes a traditional melody and writes new verses to it ...The Ballad of Tom Joad ... for example. At that point, to me, he is not folksinger, but a fine singer in the tradition of folksongs. We all remember Pete Seegers famous definition ... folksongs are songs sung by folks. Maybe that's as close as we need to look. And yet, I also, have always been bothered by the loose term "folksinger." CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:03 PM

I agree with Little Hawk. The last thing that those who have used folk music as a springboard into pop music want to be called is a folksinger. If people can't agree on what is folk music, then how can they agree on what someone is who sings it?

Keep the tradition alive. Everything living grows and changes. Respect those who have given us this great music. But, when was the last folksong written?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:23 PM

Calling yourself a "folksinger" brings in crowds????

Huh????

Maybe it did in Boston in 1965.

- LH

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM

because they need an already established, short term to hang their hat on...they'd 'call' themselves TURNIPS if thats what brought in the crowds.

People who have an agenda do not want to conform to pre-established categories...they'd rather take a category that is convenient and wrap themselves in it and stretch it to fit THEM. You see Republicans & Democrats and restaurants do it every day .....you can probably think of other examples.

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:11 PM

Sorry... a friendly disagreement. First I never came across a song written to vox populi. Most songs were written by one person. If it reflected the views and life of those around them, and they could find something in it to enjoy, then the song took on a life of its own, which may have gradually been shaped by yonders vox populi and passed into the tradition. Are Woody Guthrie's songs not folk songs, because he wrote them? If songs are written out of love and living of a tradition, they may well become folk songs. I think it all boils down to the old question... are your roots showing?

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:11 PM

Singer-songwriters are called "folksingers" because of Bob Dylan. Period. That's why. Blame Bob for it. Not that he was the first (by no means!) but his example cemented the notion in people's minds.

- LH

Subject: RE: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:03 PM

Musicmic,

First, I agree with your statement completely!

BUT as long as the proverbial folk scene is seen by the many looking for a music career as a springboard to success and stardom in country and pop music circles, we who hold to the older venerated views about this music and what it encompasses, must, seemingly, tolerate the presence of the myriads of way off-the-mark s/s troops in our midst. I do hope they make their marks and their $$$$$.

Art Thieme

Subject: Why are singer/ songwrites called folksi
From: musicmick
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 05:21 PM

Whether one sees folkmusic as a celebration of the past or as the expression of any identiftable group (Ethnic, religeous, political, geographical), we all must regard it as unique, in that it must be the vox populi (Did I spell that right?). It is not the expression of an individual, it is the soul of the group. Those of us who like folkmusic are, for the most part, interested in the culture that produced the folksong. We feel a link with the people whose music we sing. We are interested in cultures that may no longer exist. We are well informed in history and politics (We even sing about them). Some of my best friends are singer/songwriters. OK, all of my friends or s/s's. Not all s/s's are banal or egomaniacal and many are telented. Jaques Brel was a dandy s/s. He never felt the need to call himself a folksinger. Do you think that s/s's are called folksingers is so they wont have to be compared to Cole Porter or Jaques Brel?