Accompanying another musician

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Dave T
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:08 AM

Murray, sorry to hear that...I've never had the chance to see them live, so I'm just going by the recordings. Do you think Cahill's playing style and approach are different live than in the studio or is it his accompaniment, in general, you don't like?

- Dave T

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 09:12 PM

Dave T, I have to say that I have never been as disappointed in my life as I was by seeing Denis Cahill accompany Martin Hayes. Martin Hayes was wonderful, but quite frankly I found Cahill's guitar work irritating and intrusive.

Murray

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 08:55 PM

As a primarily accompanying guitarist, I think it is my role to "disappear" so the song can be pushed forward. I really enjoy listening to the words of the songs I play on and try not to get in the way. The spaces are as important as the notes.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:11 PM

I've always admired Jack Lawrence (a great picker on his own) backing up Doc Watson.

Doc does a pretty good job of backing up Jack, when they switch, also.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Alice
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 11:50 AM

I remember watching Tony Bennett and his accompanist, who has been performing with him for some 50 years or more, and you could see the breathing together, the experience of knowing what to anticipate - it takes having that experience together to be really good.

I recall my voice teacher, Suzanne, telling me that the voice of the singer is the lead - don't let the accompanist push you around or make you follow them. They are supposed to follow you. She is the best accompanist I've had. Last summer a grand piano was donated to a local art center, and as part of its public inauguration, I performed a program of Robert Burns, Thomas Moore, and Stephen Foster - she accompanied me. Suzanne said, don't worry, I'll follow wherever you go. She did.

When I first started looking for accompanists, in my frustration, I asked Suzanne if there is a book on the subject, or if any courses are taught. She said that unfortunately, it is an art that is not focussed on in academia. (She used to teach voice at the Curtis Institute.) A good accompanist is a rare treasure.

Alice

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Dave T
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM

Whenever I accompany someone else I remind myself that my job is to make them sound better, to try to enhance the feeling/mood they're creating, not to make myself heard. If that means not playing through certain sections that's what I try to do. It's definitely not how many notes one can play, "it's the spaces between them that count". I've always admired Jack Lawrence (a great picker on his own) backing up Doc Watson. Also, Dennis Cahill on guitar backing up Martin Hayes on fiddle is extraordinary.

- Dave T

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 09:01 AM

Maybe the distinction is between a singer having a musical accompaniment, and a singer being what used to be called a "vocal accompanist", where the band is the main thing. There's a place for that, but it's a different place. Understanding and negotiating that distinction might avoid a lot of aggro sometimes.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: kendall
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 08:25 AM

How about giving them an instrumental break and singing over it? Nah, they wouldn't get it. Sometimes it works to just say something. You can say almost anything and get away with it if: You are big and mean looking, if you a small and sweet, or if you are respected. When I made my most recent tape/cd the fiddler played his fiddle well enough, but, it wasn't the sound I wanted, so, I asked him to do it over on the viola. He was glad to, and, I'm glad I asked him. The harmonica player tended to slip into "Goodnight Ladies" behind Phoebe Snow, and, when I mentioned it, he tried to change what he was doing with no hissy fit crap. The secret? Use "I" messages, not "you" messages.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Kaleea
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:31 PM

Having been accompanied by many musicians in many music genres, on various instruments over the years, Some pounded so loudly on pianos as well as guitars that I could hardly hear myself sing--and I was trained to sing opera above an entire orchestra! I have found precious few who are truly talented accompanists. I often accompany music students on piano or guitar, etc, but it is a chore I do not look forward to, as I am not so good at it myself! The best accompanist is one who can truly anticipate the thoughts, the breathing, ie the interpretation by the soloist of a given work of music. The good accompanist is one who plays so that we may float upon and soar above their music. My old Voice teacher taught me that the greatest compliment you may ever give an accompanist is "Why, I didn't even know you were there." Think about this the next time you accompany another musician!

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:14 PM

There are musicians, and, there are mechanics.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 10:05 PM

A friend, who's a pretty good musician tends to give up playing when I sing - I used to get worried when he'd say things like "you can't keeep a steady rhythm". Then I thought about it, and I realised it wasn't that at all.

It's that when I'm singing a song I'm telling some kind of story, and when I'm telling a story it means there isn't a steady rhythym right the way through. And there isn't a constant unchanging tune from stanza to stanza either.

There was a thread recently about watching people to see when they change chords and so forth, and I realised in posting to it that one of the main reasons for doing that is to help in taking account of those kind of things when you are playing along with somebody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Mudlark
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 09:44 PM

Great thread. Since I live far from the maddening crowd I rarely get to play with anyone else, and my own choice in songs always goes to story songs, often full of emotion. I used to drive 50 miles to get to play with a bunch of people that got together on Sat. nights, but finally gave up in dispair as I was so was often accompanied, unasked, by a mando player that speeded the tune up so fast I could barely get the words out...which didn't matter much becaue the banjo player that also joined me effectively drowned me out.

In watching others play, it seems to me this sort of inappropriateness stems as often from insensitivity as it does from an overweening ego. In either case, the wholeness of the integrity of a song is sometimes lost, and music becomes noise. Talents like Trickett are a beacon in the night!

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:56 PM

Thanks Kendall. This (thread) is a subject near and dear to my heart. I don't think there's anything that drives me quite as nuts as watching musicians destroy a song by overplaying. It's one of the reasons that I often get surprised looks when I compliment someone on their playing, and they're so used to equating "Good" with "fancy". A great guitarist is one who plays with solid rhythm and good chords. A great lead guitarist is one who fills the "holes".

My rule of thumb is that when a "story" song is being performed, you don't mess with the "story". If it's a dance tune (breakdown, reel etc.) you can have fun with the leads.

Rick (MUCH more of a curmudgeon OFF Mudcat, than on)

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:17 PM

Alice, I have the same problem, and Mick that's just what I do! I used to have a friend back me up on some songs with a Dobro, but, he decided to get loud and fast before he got better, so, now, he is always a half beat behind trying to play every lick he knows in every piece.If you mention it, he gets pissed and leaves. Lord, save me from Prima Donnas. I don't claim to be a musician, but, often that's what is needed, basic background guitar. Let the picker do the fancy stuff. That's why I enjoy playing with Rick Fielding and Gordon Bok. They make me sound better than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Alice
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 07:13 PM

Hi, Jerry. You don't need a prefix for a thread like this. Just the title "Accompanying another musician" is enough... it's about music.
Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: John Routledge
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:46 PM

Many thanks for your basic rule Jerry/RichM - The song should sound better with the accompaniment.

If everyone realised this I would have no problem if an instrumentalist joined in when I was singing a song unaccompanied.

By the same principle I do not sing words to a tune unless it improves the tune!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:29 PM

Hi, Alice: I'm one of those dreaded "newbies" that have been flamed all over. When I looked at the prefix for threads, the music prefixes were all specific... lyric add, etc. I figured that I had to pick something, and nothing fit in the music categories. Maybe I can just make my own title? "Music." But who knows, maybe we're upgrading the bs threads. With all the flaming going on, they could use it.

Yeah, expand the thread to what is involved in accompanying someone,RichM.. to me the basic rule is that the song should sound better with the accompaniment, but your ear should be tuned to the song, not the accompaniment. Pretyy much what you said.

A humorous, true anecdote. The ONLY time I've ever been invited to add an accompaniment on a recording, I was called to come over and lay down a banjo track on a song that had to be finished that night. It was a good friend, and he was trying to finish a CD. The song was going to be the title track of the CD, and I was a little surprised that he would ask me to lay down a banjo track. I don't consider myself all that stellar a banjo player. But, I went over to the studio, put on a set of head phones to listen to what had already been recorded, so I could figure out a banjo harmony. All that I heard in the headphones were chords being fingerpicked, with no melody. I asked where the melody was, and my friend hadn't finalized it yet. I asked how I was supposed to work out a second line, if I didn't know what the melody was, and he said, just follow the chord progression (which he decided to change, once I had started to get familiar with it.) Finally, he got the chord progression the way that he wanted it, without a melody line. When I laid down my track as best I could he said that it sounded really good, and why didn't I take a lead on a break. I asked him how I could take a lead on a break if I didn't know what the melody was. When the album came out, I was there, sure enough. Mixed back enough so it sounded fine. It was nice to find out what melody I was accompanying...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:49 PM

Yeah, Alice (How've you been, my friend?), I agree with you completely. This is one of the reasons my solo performances are quite a bit different from the ensemble performances.

I was a solo for a long time before I started playing with bands, and my style caused quite a problem for the intrumentalists. When I sing on my own, I can interpret the way that makes sense to me. I can evoke phrasings and pauses that allow me to really get inside the audiences head, but which are very difficult for other musicians to follow unless they really know me very well. While playing ensemble has made me a better musician, singing solo and accompanying myself allows me much more freedom to interpret the yarn I am telling. You can do it ensemble, as well, as long as the singer has complete control over the arrangement. And in most groups, that is really difficult to achieve.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Alice
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:41 PM

As a singer, I can tell you it has been hard for me to find accompanists who can understand that the WORDS of a song are important, the emotion, the telling of the story, the dynamics needed to get the whole package across - change in tempo sometimes, holding a note for emphasis... it seems if an accompanist is a singer himself/herself, this is more understood. One accompanist, who is technically a good musician, actually told me she never listended to lyrics before she started working with me, and has mentioned lately that she thinks she prefers music that is without lyrics, because she can make it mean anything she wants - so much for my song accompanist. It was hard to get her to stop playing everything as if it was a dance tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Alice
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:20 PM

This thread is about music. Why was it given the BS prefix?

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: RichM
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:12 PM

Is it acceptable to widen this thread beyond (well-deserved )recognition of masters of accompaniment?

How about sharing your practical tips and philosophy about this?
I believe that there are two main aspects of accompaniment: doin the instrumental 'breaks' between verses; and more importantly, constructing an accompaniment that supports the singer's style, and vocal range.
The accompaniment should be economical-- not necessarily sparse (unless deliberately so)-- and contain phrasing/rhythm that enhances the lead within the beat, the measure, and the phrasing of the piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: 53
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:56 AM

Good post.

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:52 AM

I guess that first I ought to comment on the general topic, and agree mightily with my new friend Jerry. It really has to do with understanding the role you play and how important it is. It is the tale being told that is important, but it is the accompanying instrumentation that gives it depth and enhances the minds eye abilityh to be able to "see" the story and feel the emotion. It is a rare gift to understand that, and act on it in a way that directs the attention of the audience to the story being told and not to oneself.

Now to Edd Trickett. Not only is he one of the masters of the bardic craft, he truly understands and promotes the idea that it is about the music. And he truly cares about "passing it on". To illustrate why I have first hand knowledge of this, let me tell you about the first time I met him.

It was at my first FSGW Getaway weekend. Jeri, Kath Westra, and I, performed a song that was written by Brendan Nolan which was titled "Far From Their Homes". The topic of the song was the passage of the Irish in the coffin ships. It is a long and beautifully crafted song. And it is a very emotionally difficult song to sing, as it evokes strong feelings in the interpreter. When we were done, Edd asked me where this song came from, and I told him that it was Brendan Nolan's. He then grabbed a guitar and took me out side. He sat on the hood of a car and sang a song for me about the famine roads in Ireland. The song absolutely knocked me out. Upon returning home, Ed sent me a tape of the song. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been recorded.

As an aside, the song was written by one Brian Flynn. He was visiting Ireland and walked the famine road in Co. Clare. When he reached the end, visited the monument, and turned to walk back, he was struck by the sight of these very carefully cut and placed stones. He realized that each stone on this road was touched by hands that were hungry. It came to him that each stone was placed by people desperate to save their starving families. As he wrote the song of his feelings, the song evolved from that desperate vision. Because he realized that even in this horror, there was an abstract good. And that was that our people went out into the world to places like the USA, Australia, England, New Zealand....all over the world.....and contributed and benefitted in ways far beyond their numbers. So his song goes from desperation to hope, and seeks to remind those of us who are the grandchildren of Ireland that "every road we've ever walked, was built by hungry hands".

Back to Ed. That is the song that he gave me that night. Can you imagine what that meant to me? Here I am, a guy from Michigan who sings folk songs in local joints and festivals, and a singer like Ed Trickett, whose music I adore, gives me a song. But that is Ed's heart, and it shows that he is truly what our craft is about. Ed believes in passing it on. He understands what it is really about. As I have grown in my music, and listened to more and more of Folk Legacy's collection, I have become less surprised each time I hear Ed's unique voice, or his guitar work, or his hammered dulcimer work, helping others to bring their music to life. That is what he does.
And folk music is blessed by his presence.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Accompanying another musician
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 10:15 AM

Right on Jerry! Ed is one of a kind.

Subject: Accompanying another musician
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 08:38 AM

There are many threads on different musical styles, picking techniques, favorite instruments, etc. Ultimately, music gets down to feeling and expression. I've heard many wonderful musicians who really shine in a solo setting, or in a band where they can take break-neck leads, and I love to hear them. But, there are very few musicians who can accompany another musician as a second instrument, immersing themselves in the singer's style and feeling, enriching it. I've seen so many flashy guitarists who, when accompanying a singer are constantly trying to draw attention to themselves, shooting off fancy runs and grinning with pride at the audience. The rare talent is a musician who can fill out someone else's song without drawing attention to themselves. To my taste, the greatest living musician who has the generosity and feeling to make someone ELSE sound great is Ed Trickett. Ed can make ANYONE sound better than they really are, because he listens to, and gets in to their music and fills in the spaces with music that complements and enriches the singer. I had the real honor of having him add some instrumental tracks on one of my albums, and on every song, he built upon what I was doing and made it richer. That's probably why he is such a great interpreter of songs, too. He gets at the heart of the song and makes it his.

Another truly fine accompanyist is Bill Shute. Like Ed, he is modest about his role, and doesn't try to make someone else's song a showcase for his talents. He can make someone else's song sing. That is a great gift.

There are surely others I haven't heard.. especially across the sea. Howzabout giving credit and recognition to those who are able to immerse themselves in someone else's music without drawing attention to themselves. I started this thread out of respect for Dick Rosmini... another thread that was recently posted.

Jerry