Folk Music On PBS

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: BH
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:54 PM

By the way---no ones, as far as I note, has mentioned the Robeson version of the song---just wonderful. As, also, is the Crofut version. I was not really happy with the --was it "hip hop" that was on the Reihm program

Takes a lot to ruin that song--but that did


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: BH
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:52 PM

Stilly River Sage---the Moyers Special a while back was a wonderful history of the song---I taped the audio of it.   Featured, among many others in interviews Jesse Norman.

I, too, heard the program with Turner that was webcast on the Dianne Reahm show.   Intersting---though she seems a bit stilted. The explanation that he gave about how the word "wretch" was changed to "soul" and really did not hold the significance then that it should--"wretch" being a better word in the song seemed, to me, incorrect. My understanding is that Paul Robeson changed it to "soul"--as he changed other lyrics (Old Man River for one) to convey a purer thought---his comment--as I understand it is--"...we are not wretches we are all God's souls"

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:03 PM

The one I'm talking about is an old Bill Moyers special. It is available still on video and dvd. Here is Reel.com's page on it:

http://www.reel.com/movie.asp?MID=8487

If you haven't seen it, you might want to track it down.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:59 AM

I catch Moyers in his new program only once in perhaps every six weeks. It's on fairly early here on Fridays, when I'm out running kid-related errands. But he has produced so many excellent series in the past that I wouldn't be surprised if he discussed this song along the way. A lot of these programs can be tracked down through the PBS website.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:31 AM

SRS, have you ever seen the PBS program Bill Moyers did on Amazing Grace? Judy Collins is on that one too.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:17 PM

Someone a couple of miles of posts back mentioned the music on NPR, so I'll segue a bit here--did anyone else hear The Diane Rehm Show on NPR this morning? She interviewed music historian Steve Turner about his book on the song "Amazing Grace". John Newton (sp?) had an interesting history before he wrote the poem in 1772. It was put to various tunes over the years before the current one stuck.

My Real Player plays the program here.

They played quite a few versions--as I was driving toward work I was in tears by the time they got to the bagpipe version. I'd missed the earliest part of the program, so I have it on now as streaming audio. I told my boss about the program, and as we spoke, I mentioned the bagpipe version. He became very animated, and told me about hearing a performance in Scotland (to do with something called a "Tattoo?") at which many groups of bagpipers met and performed in unison, but then it became still and dark and one bagpipe played "Amazing Grace," and he (and most of the audience) was in tears--and was in tears all over again telling me this story (as I was). Very interesting program, but also makes me wonder where the power of the bagpipes come in in playing this song? Other versions of the song are quite powerful--and here's another connection coming back to this thread--Judy Collins is the one who really gave this song a new life. After her performance many other artists recorded it. And Collin's version will at the very least send shivers up my spine, if not tears to my eyes. I'm glad to read that she sounds as good now as she did back then.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,Karin
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:15 PM

"Well, I tuned in to Judy singing "Both Sides Now" and she sounded ab fab--truly, I was astounded at how good she sounded. Her voice is as crystalline as it ever was, and she still has an amazing amount of her upper range. I don't know how old she is, but I know she is definitely old enough to have lost the upper range--she is a very lucky singer."

For the record, she's 63. Yeah, she sounded great... until she flubbed the last verse and threw in a line from the second to try and cover herself. As if the majority of the audience didn't know she had screwed up on a song she's been singing for almost 40 years! I can't understand why they didn't do a re-take, b/c that kind of mistake is USUALLY embarrassing to the performer in question.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:57 PM

"The Kingston Trio and The Limeliters, too, I think, are still touring (though each group has only one original member, and I'm not sure Bob Shane tours with the KT much any more)."

Hello! If it weren't for Bobby Shane, there would BE no Kingston Trio today. He was the one who reformed the group a year after it broke up in 1967, under the name "The New Kingston Trio", bought the rights to use the KT name from fellow founding member Nick Reynolds and former manager Frank Werber (Dave Gaurd had sold his interests in KT, Inc. when he departed in 1961, as did John Stewart did when the group disbanded) in the mid-'70's, and has led the group ever since, on a full concert schedule, sometimes paired with the Smothers Brothers. The band has a web site, www.kingstontrio.com, plus an on-line store, run out of Phoenix, Arizona, where Shane now lives.

Regarding the "original" members, Nick Reynolds actually returned to the group in late 1988, replacing Bob Haworth (who used to sing with the Brothers 4), but advancing age and health concerns led him to depart again in 1999. Haworth returned to the group, and still plays with them to this day.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,Karin
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:44 PM

"For what its worth, Judy Collins IS still a working artist, playing dates refularly through the year."

The Kingston Trio still tour extensively as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:18 AM

JudyR,

Your friend in the music businness was either full of crap or a liar.

I have all of Dave Van Ronk's Prestige albums. Dave did not record any country songs on them and there is no reference "a hillbilly
number in the folk tradition."

As for Ramblin' Jack Elliott, when he made an album of country songs on Prestige, it was called "Country Style." They really tried to pull the wool over the folkies' eyes with that title.

Phil

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: JudyR
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:03 AM

Just one more post from this little white WASP (actually, I'm Jewish, and never liked Frankie Avalon!)

Someone in the music business was telling me today of how Prestige Records would cater to purists in the era we're talking about. When Ramblin' Jack or Van Ronk would record a country song, he said, the liner notes would always call it, "a hillbilly number in the folk tradition." And the beat goes on.

(Thanks, Jerry -- liked your posts, too).

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Richie
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:14 PM

PBS is filming a special of the Doc Watson, Earl Scruggs, Ricky Skaggs performance this Sat, Dec. 7, 7:30 Reynolds Aud. in Winston-Salem, NC.

I'll post an update when the special is aired. Avideo is alos being made.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:04 PM

I take it all back! I still take offense at all the rich middleage WASP slurs, but I just caught the end of the special in discussion, and... yeah, it was pretty sucky. Mea Culpa. Guest. I still will tend toward conservative economics, but I have to admit, this was a bit smarmy. Jim

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:14 PM

Holy Cow!! I go off to teach a fine young woman some three finger banjo and all hell breaks loose!!

Hi GUEST from St Paul (is it Janet R.?)..Fortunately I'll never be able to afford an SUV, so temptation is at a minimum....but I'm definitely into the Walnut Pate!

Now Red Green is another story altogether....He used to be Steve Smith from Hamilton (a stone's throw from here) and just another folksinger....except his jokes got longer and his songs got shorter! Unfortunately PBS picked up the show LONG after it had lost it's edge, and oh boy, for a couple of years did it have an edge!! What I've seen of it on PBS is pretty commercial.

Cheers

Rick (who goes out of his way to avoid MacDonalds when he's travellin')

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

We would fill all the malls with Folk Muzac! I can see it all now, The Living Strings do folk lite!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:12 PM

Nope. If Republicans had ever truly cornered the market on finer things, we wouldn't be allowed to enjoy folk music!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:09 PM

Consumption of the finer things...will it be a republican plank next?

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

I love beer too, BTW. But nowadays I only ever drink Sam Adams. I'm definitely choosing to consume fewer of the finer things in life, rather than consuming copious amounts of mediocre products for the same price.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

I'm just teasing too Guest.   I do think it does have a lot to do with where you live. I define diversity as a sharing of culture, race, religion and lifestyle. Here in the NYC area, Northern New Jersey specifically, I feel that there are numerous ethnic communities that flourish and share their culture.   Heritage, art, history and culture are celebrated - and we are only minutes away from NYC.

Malls? Well they are convenient, but I do try to support local business. Unfortunately it is a sign of the times.

The SUV? Well, I suppose it isn't great for the environment, but neither was my oil burning gas guzzler that I previously drove. It is very handy though!

I still like beer over wine! And my definition of folk music is very complex too!
:)
Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:46 PM

No issues Ron, I'm just teasing. But I have no regrets whatsoever about leaving the burbs. I don't find much diversity there, so maybe it is a difference of locales, or maybe it's a difference of definition of diversity.

And hey--I shopped at the malls all the time when I lived there too. Where the hell else is there to shop in the burbs?

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:39 PM

Wow guest, looks like you have some issues to work out!!

I hate it when people sterotype people on the basis of where they live. Shame shame!!   If you want diversity, the burbs have them!

And what do you have against beer?   Wine is just old grapes, beer is complex!

Isn't it amazing what folk music brings out?

Ron
yes, I drive an SUV and I've been known to shop in malls. Proud of it too!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:39 PM

Oops sorry Ron, it was you I was responding to, not Rick. But my stand against the burbs still stands! Vive notre cite!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:32 PM

Well, I eat Wisconsin brie sometimes. I don't drink Zinfandel though because I have a policy of never consuming anything that rhymes with infidel.

Me, I prefer my nice $10 Sangiovese from Tuscany with the walnut pate I get from my ghetto food co-op here in St. Paul.

And Rick, hey--I've LIVED THERE! But the suburbs have long since lost their appeal to me. The things I love are wilderness far beyond the burbs, and the arts, culture, and diversity of people and experiences the marginalised areas of the inner cities offers. I only visit the suburbs nowadays, and I NEVER go to the malls anymore, so TAKE THAT you bloody burban swines!

And screw yer SUVs too! You can't scare me, I'm sticking with bus!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:15 PM

Hey guest,

Don't go knocking the suburbs! Some of my best friends work in malls!!!

Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:00 PM

Now,GUEST, I tend to agree with you about some issues.
1 They do attempt to fundraise the exact same way, and I think it is wrong
2 they are trying to appeal to the same (and shrinking) demographic pool. Once you make a donation to PBS, Red Cross, Heart Association, Cancer Etc, YOU are now the target market. It is not enough that you made a contribution, but the thinking is that if you gave once, you will give again and again in the same year if they can shame you in to making the donation.
3 as per Ken Burns needing killed...well, you inner city thugs may resort to assassination, we in the suburbs will just file a lawsuit or start rumors that he is a communist...grin   all the best. (I think I'll have some bree and another white zinfandel) by the way, wouldn't that constitute a "multicultural experience" for me? I think bree is from some foreign country, but I'm not sure about Zinfandel.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:46 PM

Now jimmyt, I thought we just made up, and now he we go arguing at each other again!

I disagree. I think that the problem is, PBS keeps going after the same demographic of individual donors it has always gone after, and that their pool is shrinking because of BAD PROGRAMMING LIKE THE SHIT THEY PUT ON DURING THIS FUNDRAISING CYCLE!!!!!

Anyone who does fundraising nowadays absolutely shouldn't be doing it like they did 20 years ago. Same can be said for TV programming. You shouldn't be doing the same types of programming you were doing 20 years ago.

And after we kill Ken Burns (or maybe before) can we please kill everyone associated with the Red Green Show?

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

It's not who has the $ GUEST its who is willing to DONATE IT! Ever see the comparative giving levels of professional athletes to the general public? It is terrible how little their charitable giving is.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:23 PM

Nah, the problem I have with this sort of PBS programming is that they are acting like the only folks with money in the US of A are WASPs who love Frankie Avalon. I mean, isn't that what this sort of fundraising programming says?

Hell, there are plenty of Latino, African American, Asian and Pacific Islander folk out there with money falling out of their pockets! How come PBS ain't programming anything to bring them into the fold during fundraising week? Answer: god damn sheer laziness and insularity, that's what! Too many safe and sanitized Ken Burns documentaries, that's what! Too much programming being dumped into programs like Nova and Nature and Frontline and Masterpiece Theatre (excuse me, but just HOW OLD are those programs, in an industry where a 5 year run for ANY program is considered a long run?) at the expense of new, innovative programming.

Nah, the problem with PBS right now is much greater than just the This Land is Your Land version of American television programming. The problem is PBS has been taken over by too many WASPish leaning producers and executives who do exactly the same thing their predecessors did. PBS needs a serious, severe jolt to get it into the 21st century programming. I'd rather that some local, independent cable stations start doing more programming on national levels with the money being poured into PBS programming--they might even do a better job of it, if they were given a chance with even a quarter of the resources PBS has.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:13 PM

Racial stereotyping: applying negative qualities without discretion to all members of a racial group. WASP is just a four letter word.

I agree with you (actually) Guest, that if they were trying to do a representative sampling of folk music, they should have talked about the diversity of folk music in this country and included traditional musicians, along with the popularizers. That, I would have watched. It might not have brought in as many pledges, though. Public television can only survive if they pitch their Pledge Drives to us WASP types, with money just falling out of our pockets, what we throw at anything that sinks to our level. (As some posters seem to think.) If Public television doesn't survive, then the good programs that do focus on the diversity of music in this country in more depth would never be aired. And that would be a loss for you and me, and the rest of our Catter friends. Someone has to pay the bills. If Public television were to sink or swim based on the support of special interest groups like us, you'd hear the glub, glub from miles away. Us folks on Mudcat being unusually intellectshool and sophisticatted may be turned off by the narrow (and incorrect) labeling of folk music as just the popularized stuff during the 60's.
But then, I'd bet there are very few of us who support PBS... I used to, but don't watch television much any more (not out of snobbery, mind you.) I'm glad that there is Public Television. If they want to do a fund-raising special on lime green spandex suit music, be my guest. I hope they raise a ton of money, so they can do the kind of programming that you and I and all us Catters (and Guests who choose to shoot from behind the bushes) love.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:13 PM

You have a nice day too, jimmyt! And just so's you'll feel safe, I'll stay put here in my inner city ghetto neighborhood, listening to and pickin' and squeezin' and sangin' with my neighbors of all musical stripes, while you feast in cultural isolation in the WASP wasteland of Starbucks, the mall, and white bread and burger cultural wasteland in the 'burbs!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:02 PM

I also like your music, Guest. Maybe broadmindedness is caused from eating an occasional Big Mac. I guess I'll put a Kingston Trio CD on im my SUV as I drive home to the suburbs. Hey, have a nice day!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:01 PM

In fact, now that I think about it, all these crap music nostalgia shows for PBS' fundraising music week seems to be target marketing that same wholesome, homogenously enriched Great White McDonald's Beef Eating on White Bread Nation demographic, doesn't it? The message they are sending is, whether you love the Four Freshman or Frankie Avalon, send in those pledges, WASP FOLKS! Jaysus, the age and race demographic at PBS is getting narrower and narrower, isn't it? How frightening.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:57 AM

I take it back, jimmyt. I am happy to offend with the term WASP.

It seems you are the one passing judgment on the rest of America's folk music traditions, not us passing judgment on you, for insisting not only that the Kingston Trio is folk, but that it is the Folk Music of This Great White McDonald's Beef Eating Nation.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:44 AM

Guest. It seems that Norm is what is or seems Normal to you, or me or whomever. Sorry, but the masses out there tend to fall in a middle American group that eat at Mcdonalds, eat roast beef, and fried chicken, maybe have pancakes and eggs for breakfast. WHY? Because that is their norm. It is not a reflection on their being shallow, it is just what they do. They also tend to eat a lot of Italian and Mexican food, more and more in the last 3 decades than before. Is it "real Mexican or Italian? Hell no! It is Americanized, but it is what the masses want to eat, and if you are smart and open a resturant in America you won't get too "Authentic" if you want to sell food. Same goes with music. I enjoy travelling to other countries and experiencing their cultures as much as possible, but I have to admit, I am always happy to come home to things here that are comfortable to eat, listen to and experience. Is that shallow? Waspish? (by the way, I think that term is just as offensive as any other racial epithet, but if you insist on stereotyping,) I guess it is, but it seems that whereever people find themselves, that is the norm. If you tried to force your music and food of ontos someone in Tibet, they would probably not find it their "norm" Why can't we celebrate our differences in music, politics, religion, food, etc as part of someone else's culture without passing judgement?

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:16 AM

Yes Ron - I always get a kick out of people's response when they find out that Ashokan Farewell is NOT an old song. I too wondered the first time I heard it, if it wasn't an old song ...

Yes, Amos - you're correct. But even if they have to explore the boundaries of their market, I think they crossed the line into real schlock with this one!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:08 AM

NPR is widely diverse in their programming -- they air segments devoted to artists from every stripe and hue. At least, that's been my experience.

A

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:08 AM

Jed,

I agree with you about Burn's choice of music.   I do find it mildly amusing that people now associate the Civil War with that "great old tune" - Ashokan Farewell which was written about 20 years ago to commemorate a summper camp!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:00 AM

Jerry, the issue isn't whiteness or Protestantism, but it is the assumption that WASPness constitutes "the norm". The issue IS ethnicity and in ethnic music traditions, religion and religious music.

In fact, there is a serious problem with WASP/British music being considered the norm, because it often locks out the brilliant music traditions of many other cultures, and forces the young people of US to assimilate into the dominant WASP culture, rather than remaining with at least one steady foot in their own music cultures.

I'm not badmouthing the music or the culture of WASPs. I am complaining about it's dominance over the other ethnic and cultural music traditions, though. Therein lies the difference. I apologize for not making that clearer, as it isn't my intention to offend people by racializing the discussion. These are facts I believe to be salient in regards to PBS programming of folk music. It is one thing for the individual donors, and another thing entirely for the corporate and foundation funders who demand at least some recognition of the ethnic, racial, and cultural diversity of the US audience that needs to be served by PBS' public interest broadcasting.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:59 AM

Jed MArum suggest Go for the nostalgia, go for the most bang for the buck.

Mudcat Sampler CDs are DEFINITELY the indicated path!!


A

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:35 AM

... just kidding about the Beef Brothers!

But I must say I saw Judy singing Both Sides Now and she sounded great. Like GUEST said above, I too was astounded at how good she sounded; even better then when she was younger, if that's possible. What a magnificent voice, so effortlessly and beautifully used!

BUT ,I have to admit that, I could not stand watching much of it. I only caught the Judy Collins thing in passing, and stayed with it - but I just couldn't stand the hokey, crap formulaic approach that PBS put into this lame line up. Absolute Crap! And I don't mean to flush all the performers out with this comment. Certainly there were a few good ones - But much of this stuff was sh*t music 30 years ago, or at best medicore. It hasn't gained any quality with the passage of time! PBS should know better, damnit!! And Barry McGuire singing Eve of Destruction??? Give me a break!! What sort of IDIOT scheduled that???

Go for the nostalgia, go for the most bang for the buck, go for the lowest common denomonator - and give those old farts a chance to get teary eyed and glowing over the 'better times when they were young' sort of thing, and maybe they'll dig deep into their pocket and send PBS money. Maybe they'll talk about PBS's brave new approach to using TV for important work like telling the world about Folk Music. Well, PBS; don't do us any favors! This show was dreadful!

This sort of emotional play makes me angry (does it show??). We all know there was good folk music around in that era, as well as the schlock that was passed off as folk. Why the hell couldn't they have put some of that on? Why the hell didn't they call on their friend Ken Burns?? I am sure he'd have done a thousand times better.

And by the way, Ken Burns did more for folk music by accident then this show did on purpose. His marvelous choice of music for his various series has brought some beautiful music, beautifully performed to the forefront of public consciousness. He didn't even have to preach!

Now - before I reread this, to eliminate as many typos as I can find, and click enter, I need to say; I know there were a few gems among the list of songs and entertainers. I've already mentioned Judy Collins, I always loved the Smothers Brothers, I am sure Roger McGuinn did fine - so even though I am angry at PBS's perversion, I know there may have been some quality moments.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:32 AM

Dag-nab it! I think that it's time that us WASPS Unite. Who says we ain't folks? What should I be most embarassed about? Being white? I didn't realize I could have requested another color. Anglo Saxon?
Can I be Danish-Saxon, or Anglo-Danish? Protestant? Well excuuuuuuuse me. Even white bread Americans are folks. Sure 'nuff.

Funny, but the airwaves where I grew up weren't filled with Tex-Mex music or Klezmer music. There was enough polka coming out of our old Zenith to choke a horse, not just punch one. Being WASP, it didn't occur to me that Whoopee John Wilfahrt or Louis Bashell And His Silk Umbrellas was folk musicians. How was I to know... they didn't wear
red and white striped shirts. They were about as folk as Lawrence Welk.

Enjoy the day... it's not worth getting that upset about, Guest..

Jerry (a resident)

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:21 AM

Oh and one other thing about these nostalgia shows PBS is currently running. As I understand it, people pledged some minimum amount of money to buy their way into a seat in the audience of these programs. Which is fine, I suppose, considering the money will likely end up going to produce more of this same crap for future fundraising weeks.

Way to drive younger and niche audiences away, PBS!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:15 AM

Hey, just wait until PBS puts on the Mudcat CDs!! It's happenin' any day now, my contacts tell me!! Well, sure, they're out-of-body contacts, but still, that's what they tell me!!

Ordered your copies yet? Beats the Brothers Four ALL hollow!!


A

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:04 AM

I couldn't watch. They originally booked The Brothers Four, the Smothers Brothers and the Beef Brothers - but when they cancelled the Beef Brothers (over a union contract issue) I decided I just couldn't watch!

;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

Well, I think we are having a problem with the definition of folk music in this thread, just as PBS did with this program. Wild numbers pulled down from heaven (whenever I see the phrase "90% of _______" I tend to stop reading because, as I interpret the use of such numbers, the writer is attempting to demonstrate that everyone agrees with their personal opinion) won't convince me that the music of the WASP mainstream in the late 50s and 60s receiving commercial airplay on MOR radio stations, is the "folk" music most Americans are familiar with, and I'll tell you why. I think many of us have our first encounters with folk music through the music of our ancestors, be it polka music or Tex Mex or strathspreys or klezmer or what have you. The problem with the definition is one of the dominant WASP culture defining the Limelighters and acts like that as "their folk" and by extension "American folk".

American folk music is incredibly diverse, and much of it has nothing to do with Child ballads and Appalachia. Or with 50s and 60s WASPs disconnected from the musical roots of their ancestors, and those attempting to assimilate into that dominant WASP culture, who also contracted the WASP ancestral amnesia of the day to fit in with the dominant culture.

For many of us living in urban areas, we were also exposed to the music of other cultures through friends, co-workers, school and community events, as well as on local radio stations and local TV programs (especially if you watched/listened to the Sunday morning church programs) which played much different music than the nationally WASP oriented MOR radio stations.

I suppose I'll get slammed for using the term WASP as quaintly inaccurate. But no one has come up with a better term to describe this "most Americans" cultural standard that many white Americans believe reflects an actual reality that doesn't even exist and never has. The majority of white folks in this country ain't WASPs. So I'll continue to use the term, because it is damn accurate.

Anyway, jimmyt, it isn't about the music being for rich white folks at all. In fact, if you read my post above again, you will see that I said "white middle class". Kingston Trio was the white middle class WASP and WASP wannabe form of commercial, MOR "folk" music, not the folk music of American folk. PBS has done much more inclusive and accurate portrayals of American folk music's diversity, in specials like Mississippi River of Song and American Roots Music. So we know that the crap "folk" special truly is nothing more than nostalgia music for WASPs and WASP wannabes wishing to applaud their youthful college memories. That is what this whole fundraising series, not just the This Land is Your Land program, has been about. To get PBS donors to throw money while applauding their personal memories. On my PBS outlet this week, they are running all these god awful music nostalgia shows (it was the Frankie Avalon and Peggy March set last night) during primetime for fundraising week.

It seems those of us who watch the more accurate, inclusive folk music specials on PBS don't donate much. Which is the whole problem with the way we don't fund public interest programming in this country in the way other countries do. Folk music of all stripes and ethnicities needs air time on PBS more now than ever, because of the six media conglomerates lock on the airwaves. There aren't any TV outlets that give us this programming. None. Zero, zip, zilch. PBS is it. So they truly are doing a great disservice to great folk and ethnic music traditions of this country by declaring this shit "folk" music when it ain't.

So yeah, I guess I'm dragging the conversation to the "what is folk" gutter, even though I don't want to. I just get so sick and tired of the nostalgic-WASPs-disconnected-from-their-ancestral-roots "folk" defining what folk music is going to be for those of us who actually grew up living in the center of our own ethnic cultures, or on the periphery of other ethnic cultures who were our neighbors, school mates, church congregations, etc. Mighty tired of the WASP folk standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 09:57 AM

Allan,

My problems with Burn's baseball are probably minor, but as a fan of the game I was disappointed.   For a series that was supposed to document the 100+ year history of the sport, he chose to be selective in what he presented.   The last 3 decades were covered in one installment and the contemporary issues which have changed the game and the public so much were rushed through.   He did not interview enough baseball players and chose to offer commentary from Billy Cyrstal and other celebrities instead of the people who were alive and participating.   While I live in the NYC area and understand the importance of baseball in the area, you would think that the game was primarily a northeastern pastime from his view.   When he chose to talk about other teams, he was often sloppy. I remember there was a segment talking about the Gas House Gang and a picture of Stan Musial came across the screen. Stan was not playing at that time.   There were other "minor" problems from a fan point of view - footage that did not match the story, inaccurate "facts", etc.   I also thought that from a technical point of view, it was rather sloppy. The same images were repeated constantly.   There are so many photos of Babe Ruth, couldn't he have added a few more?

Baseball, at least when I was young, was a passion - nearly a religion for some.   Burns was almost too reverential in his approach and the documentary, for me, lacked the humor and the excitement that the game evokes.   

With that said, I do think that the story he told about race relations and the sport as a reflection of our history was remarkable. This is a story that in 2002 is often forgotten. It is amazing to see where we've come and how different it was, not very long ago.   If Burns focused the documentary on that aspect alone and not tried to cover so much ground (and failing to do so), the documentary would have been wonderful.

I realize that the documentary was produced for a PBS audience and not an ESPN audience, but my feelings are that Burns tried to bite off more than he could chew.   Jazz was pretty much the same.

Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:10 AM

Excellent post, JudyR.

What tie you talking about, Rick? The string tie with the bull horns on it?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,JudyR
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 03:52 AM

P.S. That was me, posting above. Why did it say I was a guest? I guess you have to sign in every time (how our memory dims when it's been almost a year).

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:38 AM

Sigh. I looked for this thread for a couple of days, not having posted on this forum for many, many months, and couldn't find it. Guess you can't write "PBS Folk Music," and hope it'll come up -- too case sensitive. Anyway, by the time I get here, the number of replies are so many, I can't keep track.

Geez. I mean -- yeah, the music is or was hokey, and yeah -- I found myself asking, "Hey, where are the Weavers? Where is Pete Seeger? Where is Joan Baez? Where, even, are Bud and Travis or the Tarriers?" I answered myself (for one thing, I hear Seeger is not in the best of health these days, but not sure. Maybe the others are too big and too busy).

But hell, this was the music that the majority of my generation made the jump from, to "real" folk music. And when I did discover the real stuff, it was a pretty quick jump. But -- as others have said, what a trip for me down memory lane! I was just in college in 1959, and seeing the Kingston Trio, after hearing nothing but Paul Anka and Frankie Avalon on AM radio was -- a revelation!!! Suddenly, there was public radio and all these new sounds! The impact of this commercial folk music, with its democratic edge and a kind of "Ban the Bomb" underpinnings, was incalculable in turning me on to other forms. I was trying to remember where I was when "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore," came out, and near as I can trace it, I was just discovering those neat little dark coffee houses and folk dance enclaves that were to be so important in generating this musical movement. Sometime in there, I remember working as a waitress at a corny "Banjo Cafe," where players wore red-and white striped shirts, and thought that was real far-out.

What am I trying to say? Despite my boredom during many of the performances (and noticing that few original members but Hassilev were in those groups), this program had meaning for me. Like someone said earlier, I began to remember when even commercial music had a message, and when most people in America - can you believe it -- were leaned to the left.

Very soon, VERY soon -- I discovered old Child ballads at my university and at the AshGrove, saw Barbara Dane, heard Baez, Dobson, and the girl folksingers, and leapt from there to Jean Ritchie, who I felt was more real -- heard Van Ronk in 1962 (HUGE revelation!) and went on to discover Doc Watson, Robert Johnson, and the black blues singers. And then came the Koerner, Ray and Glover, the jug bands and the other folk music of our generation. Discarded Peter, Paul and Mary REAL quickly (btw, wish I had heard the Smothers Brothers at that time - I thought their "chirp, chirp" act on this show was brilliant! -- but I was too busy living life to watch TV).

And then when David Crosby came over to my house one time in 1964 or '65, with this new guy, Chris Hillman (I lived across the street from the Troubadour and they'd drop by to tune up), and insisted I change the station from Pacifica public radio to -- god good, AM! -- I was in shock. They were playing -- gasp -- folk-rock!

But this all preceded it. Maybe the presentation and idea behind this PBS show was clumsy and produced poorly -- but I am not ashamed to have soaked it up, with all those (yikes!) white-haired old codgers in the audience and on the stage.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:37 AM

I have to ask Ron Olesko what the problem is with Burns' series on baseball. I can understand why a few people were critical about the Jazz series, but I thought he did a decent job with the National game. What was your objection?

Al