St George's Day

Subject: 'Befuddled' is a RACIST
From: Hester
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 08:23 AM

News flash, Befuddled:

Rationalize all you like. You're still a racist, wanting to reserve British citizenship for whites only, and blaming your country's intrinsic political and social problems on "non-European" immigrants.

You're disgusting! You're a disgrace to Mudcat (thankfully you're only a guest, not a member), you're a disgrace to the folk music movement, and you're a disgrace to your country.

I live in the world's most culturally diverse city: Toronto. And guess what, British folklore traditions such as Morris dancing are alive and well here -- as are festive traditions from all over the world. Culture is not an "either/or" proposition. Rather than blaming immigrants for "swamping" your culture traditions, perhaps you should look instead to the apathy of the British people themselves.

Immigration did not extinguish the St. George' Day parades. England's own religious Reformation accomplished that, hundreds of years prior to any "non-European" migration to your country.

Hester

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:07 AM

Actualy I realy dont involve myself in football thuggery or any other sort of thuggery or belong to any loony extreme political outfits(politics the sham it is,is lovely work if you can get it ha ha) and I realy dont mind foreign people of any race and enjoy their company as much as anybodies....what I do mind is that those people have countries indeed continents they can go back to where their culture and way of life is intact....we English and I could include the Scots and Welsh(the truly British)have seen our cities being swamped by people who have no ethnological connection with these isles...I truly enjoy the diversity of having people from all parts of the world visit this country,but I realy think visit should be the oprerative word...limited residency rather than citizenship would give non europeans the chance to experience our culture rather than drown it out...We now live in a society where less than 60 percent of the population can afford to buy a house in our cities..where medical provision is stretched to breaking point..where public transport cannot meet capacity demands...where third world food hygene standards are becoming the norm in our cooked food outlets...we need to redress the underlying causes for these problems and the major factor generating them surely is a population out of control...we must help folks from the poorer continents in their countries not try squeezing them all into an Island just 800 miles long by about 400 miles wide...

Hester fiddle while roam burns if you like,but if we are to remain a country in a position to offer any assistance to genuine asylum seekers or as I say by assisting countries to overcome their own problems of supporting their populations then we must remain a country that retains its own national characteristic of a well run orderly succesful society..

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM

You said it for me too, Hester, and for others too, I'm sure

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:13 AM

Red Max, you are disappointed that St George's Day is celebrated more.

Don't wait for the media and the Chamber of Commerce to do it for you. Do it yourself. Host a party, make some food, organize some music, and celebrate. Perhaps the idea will catch on.

Take power over your life, even if in small ways.

Subject: RE: St George's Day spoiled by ugly RACISM
From: Hester
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM

Bleccchhhh!   What a racist idiot Befuddled is!!!!! (And what an apt pseudonym he chose.) Perhaps he's been kicked in the head too many times by his soccer hooligan buddies.

I want no part of his xenophobia and jingoism. It's exactly that attitude that makes me leary about becoming associated with some modern British folkies.

See my earlier post about the unfortunate connection between the folklore revival and extreme right-wing attitudes in this earlier thread:

Folk Song Politics

In posting my St. George's Day cyber-card, my intent was to point out that George was a multi-faceted figure, whose legend was both influenced by, and celebrated in, MANY countries and cultures, not just England. Seeing George's image used as an emblem of some sort of English 'racial purity' makes me ill.

England has ALWAYS been a genetic and cultural crossroads -- that is what has given her such a vibrant culture! The Celts, the Romans, the Danes, the Saxons, and the Normans all contributed to a glorious mixture. You should rejoice that Asians and Africans are now contributing to that ever-changing mix, and keeping it vital.

After all, you sought these people out to be subjects of your "Empire"!!! How dare you complain that they are now acting on the residual rights of that forcibly imposed citizenship and insisting on being equal members of British society.

Hester ... half English, and fully Canadian, happily living in a society that sees no conflict between cultural diversity and a strong national identity

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Surreysinger
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM

Agreed,thanks for a very nice card Hester, which beats by a very long chalk those which were available in the shops. (I've come to it a day after the event). However, cheekily,I must admit that I'm intrigued by the use of a French madrigal tune to accompany it ?

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:29 AM

I heard on the radio yesterday that St George was in fact a Palestinian...perhaps we could now make old Yasser arrafat our new patron saint...if only he'd have a shave more often ha ha...

Anyway bully for us English...its about time we did a bit more flag waving...its about time we stood up more for our culture....it seems us English are so fairminded that we dont mind our country being colonised by settlers from the asian and African continent...I suppose when we've finaly been relinquished of our controling influence over England then many of those settlers will be fleeing the society they have replaced it with modeled upon the tyrannies and corruption of the countries they've come from...Oh delight in sweet disorder an Englishmans home is what an asylum seeker makes it...

England oh my England alas not much longer we are the dying race....in our own land..

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:57 AM

303, eh? So St George was not Turkish, couldn't have been as the Turks (in fact their ancestors, the Seltzuks) migrated south from Mongolia a couple of centuries after that. For the preceding 8 centuries the East Mediterranean coast (Asia Minor, today's Lebanon etc) had been colonised first by the Greeks and then by the Romans. But it would be too "pat" to call St George Greek or Roman, as there were also indigenous peoples there that invariably mixed with the colonising Greeks and Romans. He could be anything therefore. And it doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:44 PM

Nice card and links, Hester. Thanks.

I seem to remember Sir James George Frazer discussing St. George and Green George in The Golden Bough. Been a while since I read that but there might be a copy around the house somewhere yet.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Hester
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:15 PM

Well, actually, all of St. George's life story is apocryphal. But, hey, that's cool, 'cause he wound up absorbing lots of pre-Christian mythology and traditional folk rituals.

The story of him slaying the dragon is likely based on the classical myth of Perseus rescuing Andromeda from the sea monster.

In Slavic parts of Europe, St. George traditionally appeared on his feast day as "Green George", a man entirely encased in a cage of branches, looking just like the English "Jack-in-the-Green":

Green George in Slovenia

In the 16th century in England, St. George's parades marked the opening of the spring festive season. As Sandra Billington points out in her book _Mock Kings in Medieval Society and Renaissance Drama_, St. George, like Robin Hood, took on the role of a traditional Mock King or Lord of Misrule at these events.

Anyhow, here's my cyber-card to wish you all a (slightly belated) St. George's Day, complete with links to additional information about the meaning and history of this enigmatic figure:

SAINT GEORGE'S DAY GREETING CARD

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:58 PM

Here is one source for the story of St. George. He was a soldier in the Roman army who would not renounce his faith and was tortured and killed. The serpent he is said to have killed was near Beirut in what is today Lebanon.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM

He was put to death on April 23rd 303 by the Emperor Diocletian, apparently

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: alanww
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:52 PM

I believe that it is 1700 years exactly ago since St George died ...
"And did those feet in ancient times ...!"
Alan

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

Does anyone know why 23 April is St George's day, anyway? Was it on 23 April that he slew the dragon, or what?

Perhaps we should just stick with celebrating Will Shakespeare's birthday instead.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:55 PM

I will eat a kebab in his honour

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

When I was in Devon just before Easter there were a lot of
Union Flags (some of them even the right way up) and St George's flags flying, especially in Gt Torrington who make a big thing of their Civil War battle. One pub was even flying the Royal Standard - I thought only Lizzie Windsor could fly that & only when in residence -we didn't see her looking at the sale items in the Dartington Glass shop.
RtS

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: red max
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

Oops, just noticed the "All the Best.." thread

Subject: St George's Day
From: red max
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM

I was going to post this as a non-music thread, but on reflection I think this ties in with the general disinterest in English folk music

Notice how St Patrick's day is so widely celebrated (yes, in England too), and how Irish music is thriving...St Andrew gets a healthy acknowledgment, and Scots music is doing okay...if St George had known about the current state of the English tradition he might have thought twice about fighting the dragon

Come to think of it, wasn't St George Turkish?