Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:08 PM

A friend has been experiementing with burning DVDs and his conclusion is that Memorex media, as far as the DVD disks are concerned, are readable on all of the machines he has tested them on so far. That hasn't been the case with some of the other brands. You might want to look for some reviews and see if this lines up with other users' opinions.

Robomatic, I think the external hard drive is going to be a critical player in my future backups and security, and it won't live in the same room as the rest of the equipment.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:22 AM

I sympathize with your plight. In general, when thugs go after a computer, I doubt they are interested in your data, so it's usually a case of loss rather than misuse of data, which is bad enough, but not disastrous.

My brother and i talk computers a lot. Our family started out in the 80's by all buying the same computers, Mac Pluses, so we could share our problems and solutions with each other. That old Mac Plus was one of my favorite boxes. I went through my first hard drive, my first internal power system repair soldering kit and everything, and my first case of "hey that's not a computer, that's a door stop!"

My next favorite computer was a laptop by Compaq that used a pen instead of a mouse, 11 years ago. It held up and travelled thousands of miles with me. It still works but its battery is shot, and it can't go online. But it will write and keep text all day.

These days, I build my own, mainly for the fun of it. I use AMD processors cause initially they were cheap, and now I simply trust 'em. I have about three or four computers at a time, only two of which are allowed on line through a router. I use very little by way of protective software. If there is data I care about, I store it on strictly off line machines. If i'm travelling, the hard drives come out of the machines and go into a storage all their own.

I use a large external Hard Drive Unit for immediate data transfers and back ups, and other hard drives for large data storage.

I've just started using DVDs so can't comment on their durability. I found CDs good but the most useful versions, the CDRWs, were very iffy to burn, frequent crashes and worse.

I have also formed some sensitivity to brands. I don't buy Memorex CDs or magnetic media. I don't buy MAXTOR hard drives.

As for systems. I've been happy with Windows 2K, Windows XP. I have had some tough memory losses that I think were due to peculiarities of the windows system, however. I have one machine using Mandrake Linux which I really like, but Linux is not for people who don't like to mess with the fine running of things.

My brother loves the unix based Mac OS. When I'm using them, I find the Macintosh to be a cut above the PC world. The machines look and feel so much better than WinDOZE, it's like driving a Lexus versus a Ford. But the Ford will still get you there most of the time.

Good luck and I hope you get your data back.

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:00 AM

That's very useful, John. Thanks!

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 01:03 AM

SRS -

I've gotten Nero bundled with a couple of machines, and it's great for audio files. I don't do a lot of that kind of burns, so I can't say there's a big difference between the two programs for audio. I often still go to Nero for my occasional audio CD.

I had a lot of trouble with Nero on data files though, because when it finds a file/path that's a little out of bounds it doesn't give you a clear indication of which file is the problem.

I got Roxio bundled on a laptop, and found it worked a lot better for data. Unfortunately, I don't get along that well with laptops, so I bought Roxio for my other machines. (The laptop actually has a faster CD burner than my main desktop, so I sometimes copy the files over to it if I'm burning multiple copies of one or two CDs.)

If you use DOS filenames exclusively, 8-character names + 3-character extensions, the filename problem is minimized, although not removed. While I doubt you'll want to name all your records in 8.3 format, if you should choose to, note that it's legal to have an extension on a DOS folder, but an ISO folder on a CD cannot have a .xxx extension.

On a CD, every file is recorded by it's full path+file, so you could have:

       FolderAA\SubFldrB\Sub2Foldr\Sub3Foldr\Sub4Foldr\...\Filename.xyz

When you burn a DOS 8.3-named data file using ISO standard burn setup, you're limited to 8-deep folder structures, and each folder is limited to 8 characters, so there's still a very real limit on how complex your folder structure can be.

CDs use ISO9660 naming, to convert long filenames to 8.3 format, and you can choose to use that conversion alone. ISO9660 doesn't allow distinguishing between upper and lower case either, so your "Letters" folder, containing "Letters to Businesses," containing "Letters to Plumbers," containing a "Letter to Charley.doc" will be identified on an ISO CD as something like:

       DISKID\LETTERS\LETTER~1\LETTER~5\LETTE~26.doc

(you could probably squeeze one more level in – that string is only 45 characters.) Not much help when you're trying to retrieve a specific letter.

There is a "slash 2" ISO9660 standard that allows long file names, but a lot of CD drives can't read CDs burned to the 9660/2 spec.

You'll probably want to burn your CDs using Joliet conversion. If you use the Joliet filename conversion, long filenames are recorded as a "display name." The ISO 8.3 name is still recorded and used for each file, but when you look for one you'll see a long name. There are one or two characters that are legal in Windows long filenames that are not permitted in Joliet names, so you'll occasionally get an "illegal character" error. That should be rare, but if you have a habit of using "the one illegal one" in a lot of filenames it can be a nuisance.

The bigger problem is that long filenames on a hard drive can be up to 256 characters, and there's no limit to how deep you can go with subfolders; but on a Joliet CD filenames have to be less than 64 characters. There is a limit on the total number of characters in the full path + filename string but I can never remember what it is. The "spec" also prohibits folders more than 8 deep.

The above comes out, for a Joliet burn:

DiskID\Letters\Letters to Businesses\Letters to Plumbers\Letter to Charley.doc

78 characters (including spaces): Probably a legal filename on a Joliet CD in this case, but it's very easy to exceed the limits.

When Nero hits an illegal name/path/depth violation, the versions I've seen only show you the ISO name for the file that's causing the error. It apparently attempts to display the whole path, but usually an illegal runs out of the box, so at best you see:

       diskid\letters\letter~n\letter~n\letter~n\lette~nn.doc.

If you're burning a disk with 3 or 4 hundred "letters" it's not to helpful to know that the problem filename starts with "Lette" since all of the files do. The number given to a particular file depends on what order the program assigned them, and that does not necessarily correlate with the order in which they appear in a Win Explorer or DOS listing.

Nero also makes you exit the burn setup and use Explorer (or other dir/ren function) to change the filename (and probably the folder layout) and then restart.

With Roxio EZCD, the display name and path is shown, a default correction (truncation) is offered, you usually can change the name that's a problem to something else that suits you and continue with the setup (or to the next error). It may still be necessary to exit and start over if you need to change the folder structure to shorten pathnames, but at least you know what file needs to be corrected and what folder its in.

No contest for data CDs. Roxio wins in a walk.

For audio, I have a feeling that Nero is a little easier to use for sorting tracks and such, but I haven't done enough of that to really have much of an opinion.

Note that WinXP has a built-in CD burner utility. The descriptions claim it's pretty much a drag-and-drop process. I have not tried it out, so I don't know how it handles setup errors.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 08:52 PM

John,

How would you compare Roxio vs. Nero in the various burning tasks? I've been using Nero for a couple of years, but in the past I had Roxio in the bundled software.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 06:32 PM

SRS -

Both CDs and DVDs have the same problem with using lots of folders. The total path length - all the folder names + filename - is only about half as long as what you can use on a hard drive, so you have to be careful to use very shallow trees when you get ready to burn. I often have to do quite a bit of renaming, and moving subfolders up to the top, to get my hard drive trees pruned.

One of the reasons that for data I've preferred Roxio's burner to Nero is that Roxio tells you (in the 3 versions I've used) which file has a namelength problem while Nero (2 different versions) just says "one of your files has an illegal name" and aborts the burn.

For most data files, the default renaming (truncated) is okay. If you happen to have web pages saved as .html, with folders for includes, you must open the file and save-as to rename it, or you'll never get it to work again. I haven't run into any other kind of file that won't work if you lop off a couple of characters on the filename.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM

John,

I agree with your approach to backup, and it looks like we'll be exploring your uncharted territory by using a newer DVD writer. I always tuck files away in folders. In addition to that, I'm going to start a code for myself in naming my folders--I'm planning to compile a couple of numbers and letters and then a word description of the file contents. It seems to me that Symantec Ghost shortened the names of the folders in the backup in my last version. I'll be getting that again and they may have solved that problem, but I'm hoping to have a key to things just in case. Meanwhile, if you use Ghost Explorer it can track down and restore anything that you have on that disk.

I say this having done my most recent backups onto an external hard drive, and I plan to use one of those again. But I will not make the mistake again of having most of my backups in a mechanical form, I'll also make some kind of disk backup.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 12:58 AM

SRS -

My limited experience with trying to use DVDs for data storage didn't leave me with a very favorable impression of the recovery performance available. I haven't used them enough to make much of an evaluation of reliability or durability for archiving; but most of the stuff I put in what I call "backup" is subject to recall when I need it. Getting a few specific files back off a DVD is just so slow that I can sort through the equivalent half-dozen CDs, find the right one, and have the files I want before the DVD finds the first couple of files.

The 4.7 GB capacity of a DVD is about what it's realistic to put on seven 700 MB CDs, but I can run through all 7 of the CDs, open the directories, and copy quite a few files, just in the time it takes a DVD to "mount" itself and show me the top level folder names. (I'll grant that my drive is an early model, and newer ones may be somewhat faster.)

I haven't "shopped" seriously for blank DVDs, but the few I've bought have cost me close to $10 each, and CDs - with mini-boxes - are pretty easy to find in "major maker" quality at $1 each or less. The net cost for CDs is at least a little less, in my market, than for equivalent DVDs.

An additional consideration is that DVD makers absolutely do not approve of putting labels on DVDs. While you might observe the same prohibition for "archive grade" CDs, just on priniple, I have no problems with using stick-on labels on CDs - printed with descriptive info. I would not attempt it on DVDs, at least until I've seen some reliable indications that compatible labels and "tough enough" DVD blanks are available.

With a LEGIBLE Neato label on each CD that has a brief description of contents, I can usually find the one I want without opening the box. With the felt-tip marker label you can put in the "approved label area" on a DVD, I usually have to pull the DVD out of the box, adjust the reading lamp, and then wiggle the disk around to get the "right reflection" just to guess what all may be there.

The only exception I've made to using CDs instead of DVDs is for a small(?) collection of high resolution scans from some antique photos. The scans, mostly at 600 to 1200 dpi, from 8x10 inch and larger prints in photoshop .psd format, run about 300 MB each, with a quite a few too large to fit more than one per CD. These are obviously something I won't be using very often, so I archived them on about a dozen+ DVDs.

(Essentially the same collection did require 50 CDs, discarding a few "redundants" in the CD version, and filling in the "small extra" spaces with a few other little files.)

Especially if you decide to use DVDs, I would urge you to assemble your files in a folder before you burn, and then run a DOS "Dir *.*/S>folder.txt" to create a text list of what's on the DVD and include it on the DVD. It's a lot faster to open a .txt (or .doc) file in Word and use "Find" to figure out if the file you want is there than it is to open a DVD directory in Explorer and go hunting (unless you're a whole lot better organized than I am).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 12:40 AM

The monitor will add about $300-350 to the price, but yeah, this is a great savings over the approximate $2400 the setup cost a few years ago.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:43 PM

This weekends newspaper ads - COMP USA - HP the system you described - (80gig/printer/scanner/ethernet etc. w/o monitor) 699.00 US dollars complete.

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 01:08 PM

Get a drive that willl do both. DVDs at 4GB are more convenient for backups. But CDs are better for audio because everyone has a CD player.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 01:05 PM

Why do you favor CDs over DVDs? I haven't explored using the DVD burner yet, but if they hold a lot more data, fewer are required. Are there issues with how the data is stored or retrieved on a DVD disk? With a very large machine hard drive you can be talking about a lot of work and a whole bunch of CDs. (I'm not asking this question because I refuse to use CDs, mind you, but because it would be nice to spend a weekend doing something other than loading CDs into the machine all day long if there are backups that require less media and cataloging of them. And keep in mind, I will have an external hard drive again for backups.)

Thanks everyone for the offers of equipment. I always knew that Mudcatters were a generous group, and you've proved that again now. So far I'm up and running with one computer system here, and this is the one that the insurance company is most likely to dispute, because the bits and pieces were older. I haven't replaced it all yet, but I've been checking prices. I'll pick up the backup hard drive soon, and I saw them, same make and size, in CompUSA for $179. Mine cost about $250 in late 2003, so even replaced with the same size new, Allstate is going to pay less than I did. What is annoying is that if I should choose to try to spend the same amount of money I did before, to get a larger external drive, then they would protest that I'm upgrading and they won't pay for that.

The bits that I need to replace but would like to upgrade are the things I'll buy last. I'll send in the receipt information (copies) then after this is all settled with the insurance folks, take the few items back and pay the difference to upgrade. The insurance folks then have 15 working days to process the information and send me a check for all of the stuff that I had to purchase again. I think that's easier than trying to argue over the price I pay for the upgrade and what they say they would have to pay for the replacement.

When I finish with all of this, there will be fragments left from the old system that I can't use, but that might work as replacements for others with systems needing some tweaking or repair. OS disks left behind, left-over HP keyboard and mouse (I use more ergonomic equipment), etc.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 01:18 AM

SRS

I'd take the advice of an earlier poster and use CDs for backups if you can. Used Zip Drives are available locally for under $ 50 but, of course they are outboard ones that plug into the parallel port with a pass-through plug, so you don't lose the use of your parallel port. With this in mind, perhaps you can borrow an external Zip Drive, archive your Zip Discs onto CDs, and then return the drive.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:36 PM

I picked up one of two computers I'm replacing. After looking at the high end Media Center computers, I decided that while there is some entertainment value, I have plenty of players of various sorts around the house and don't need that much firepower on the computer. I chose an HP Pavilion a820n, which is, in relative terms, less than the tall and roomy Pavilion 9870 I bought five years ago. I've just used the only expansion slot, to put in a floppy drive. There are some spaces on the back for cards, etc. I also picked up a zip drive (external) an HP printer (LaserJet 1320--boxy, but faster and double the memory of my old one, at $100 less) a scanner, and a cable for the printer. I had a spare USB cable in a drawer, but if I don't get the cable, that's one more thing that the insurance folks won't credit me. Such a racket. I'll leave it in the wrapper and see about returning it later if I decide to leave the printer on a USB port. I've seen those big USB hubs plenty of times. I will eventually have a couple of camera cables replaced that I'll plug into something (I had them on a little USB hub before). This computer does have a several slot media reader on it so I can pull the flash memory card out of the camera and download any images until I replace the cable.

My new DSL modem arrived from Earthlink today. It set up like a dream. Next comes the router, and this weekend I'll order another computer, probably a Dell again. The kids really liked theirs, and I can't see much reason for switching.

This computer is fast, and it is quiet compared to my last HP, and quiet compared to the Dell. Or, I should clarify, the Dell had a noisy CD player, and I hope to avoid that racket this time around. I'll probably call them and describe the problem that we had with the last machine before hitting "send" and ordering the next one online.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: GUEST,Mr Red in geek mode
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:16 AM

I just assembled a PC

I went for the AMD Athlon 64 because it is fast and one step down from the Athlon XP which is server oriented. I opted for 3 Gig on the grounds of cost - faster and it gets ridiculous, give it a year or two and they will be jelly bean prices and I can get 25 % boost by buying a new CPU.

Burner is a Lite-On DVD 2 layer dual format. LG have a three format 2 layer but the vendor didn't stock them on reli
ablity grounds, I may not use 2 layer for a year or two but when the market moves I am ready to experiment.

I got a floppy (essential in a crash) but this one had a built-in 7 in one card reader which eats one USB but looks like two drives.

Because the Graphics is a TV I got a 250 gig SATA but there is a 40 IDE for the systems, I do video editing so fast HDDs are essential.

Win98 (for backward compatibility of any legacy software) and Win 2K because there is no "must have" on XP & I don't fancy all the named driver switch-off of SP2 (Norton disabled on security grounds - believe it)

If you have a free choice - consider the cards reader and dula layer DVD as future proof (of sorts).

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM

SRS -

I think even you got in another post while I was "composing." Lots of noise in the 'phone line this evening and it dropped the connection a couple of times.

Some "discount" line computers have 4 USB jacks, but only a 2-port internal hub. The two connectors on the back are the same two as the two on the front. Most of the machines you'd be interested in probably have a true 4-port internal hub. WinXP doesn't have any problem working an internal hub with an external, so I've got an external 4-port running through one of the 4 internal ports, total of 7 available. The external USB-2 hub cost me about $30 as I recall.

Jon is right about filling them up. Scanner, printer, and a couple of external HDs on the external hub. I'd be in trouble if the other printer wasn't on the ethernet loop. The external hub was originally just to get all the connections out of the way so the front ones on the machine would be clear to plug the camera in without fighting with the cables, but I may have to get a larger hub if I keep adding stuff.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:44 AM

SRS -

The WinXP-Media is a relatively new version designed specifically around the newest "Multimedia" computers. It has all the bells and whistles for young yuppie (is that still the term) "media addicts" but I'm not sure it adds much for an old office fogey, or for a "working musician."

Most of those multicolored jacks on the front of the machine are likely to be for the 7 to 9 speakers for your "multimedia surround sound." Things may have improved with the recent ones, but a few months ago they were leaving little incidentals like mic input jacks and line-outs off to make room for all the speaker plugs. A lot of jacks is no substitute for the right jacks for what you intend to do.

Multi-media, what I've seen of it, is "shut up and listen" stuff. It's apparently based on the assumption, probably accurate assuming you're one of the idiots with money, that the "media people" know what you want and you're not really supposed to supply any creative input. You buy a disk, put it in, and blow your ears out; but many that I've seen don't let you input from other devices, do any mastering, etc.

There are some very good systems, but be very careful about checking that you're getting what you want, and not what the advertising people have decided is "best for you."

As mentioned previously, pre-installed sound cards generally are NOT SUPPORTED by the soundcard makers. You have to go to the Computer OEM who assembled the machine, and they seldom know enough about the card to provide any support. If you want to do sound, I'd still recommend adding a good card - purchased from the mfr (via a retail outlet)- after you get the rest of it set up, just to assure you can get support (and an operating manual) for it.

The other style of computers being pushed of course are the "gamer machines." Multimedia and Games are where they're making the profit, so that's likely to be what's in stock at most "computer stores." I may be misreading your wants, but I suspect you'd be better suited with a "less popular" kind of machine setup.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:25 AM

Here in Australia, it is not uncommon for house doors to have external 'screen doors' to keep insects out - some of these are also steel or heavy Aluminium security doors, can be fitted with deadlocks, triple bar locking, etc. Some also incorporate steel mesh rather than fabric for more security. An Aussie Co a year or so ago came up with a new idea, a combined door & security screen designed to work and install as a single unit.

The Media Centres are designed to

1) not be very expandable, cause once you have it you will have everything you need, just like a Sam Smiths Pub... :-)

2) supposed to have power supplies that are quieter than normal PCs - you don't need a hurricane or whining fan while trying to watch TV or listen to music....

A quiet power supply is rated at about 25Db - you can even get fanless ones now - but they should be put in a case that is designed to handle the heat and airflow without a fan.

Thoroughly recommended too is a UPS backup power supply - saves you losing data when the mains power supply dies or glitches.

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:21 AM

SRS, I wouldn't see the USB ports as a problem. I've got one with 4 ports and the others have 2. The power strip I got for Pip's computer also has USB ports on it and it seems to work OK, My end of the world, I use an 8 port hub. I use USB switching device too as a method of sharing devices between 3 computers. I suppose it could be a problem if every device was used at the same time (I guess on a hub you are sharing bandwith for all devices) but thats not a situation that occurs here - I would't be scanning, printing and playing with MIDI at the same time.

It is surprising how quickly you can use the ports up though. Currently I've got 2 printers, 1 scanner, 1 card reader and 1 MIDI device on my shared part of the system. It leaves me with a couple of spare ports but there is no telling what I may want or do in the future.

I would not want a PC with no free expansion slots even if it seemed like it had everything in I wanted at the time of purchase. Again, it comes down to me not knowing what I may want to do in the future

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:17 AM

Robin,
I've learned a lot today. The flat panel monitors don't have the same ratings like the CRTs, no .27 vs .25 pixel stuff. The contrast ratio is important. The higher the number the better, and consequently the higher the price. Good to know.

I swatted sales people off all day. I needed to just look before I could formulate my questions. I picked up the stuff like power strip and the central power thingie for the computer. I found the wireless router and a network card for the remote computer. I looked at HPs, but find though there are several of the "media center" models available, none of them have any expansion slots. It seems that when they put in the tv/radio receiver stuff and the AV plugs, and beside that they put in the port for the HP-specific removable drive, they took up a lot of space. I like what I see on some of them (nice speed, amount of memory, amount of RAM) but there is no room to do more than what this computer is set up for now. I have to add in several features that would have to go on USB plugs, and there are only six total. So unless they can allow the ordering of these features in a larger tower, this isn't quite what I want. It also seems that the backup removable drive is HP specific and I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to remove the data, if necessary, with any other kind of machine.

The Dell machine we bought 18 months ago no longer exists, though the system does, but it has many improvements. So we're still looking there.

Insurance folks will probably be here tomorrow. My son came down with this A-California flu over the weekend, so he'll be here sick. The kids' dad is out of town this week, and I'm not leaving a child home alone in a house in which the door was kicked in last week. Hopefully I'll get the door fixed this week, once the adjustor tells me what latitude I have regarding the repair or replacement. I'd like to reinforce it. I need to buy computers. I need to get my son through the flu. Oy. What a week this will be.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:14 PM

With regard to flat panel monitors, you should check the response time of the display. The early ones were very slow - suitable for TV, but would leave trails, blurs, etc on fast moving graphics like in games, etc. Some of the "faster" ones took shortcuts, like not using all the colours on fast moving stuff. I do believe that the fastest, and most expensive ones have about 6-8 ms response. Depends on what you want to use it for.

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:47 PM

I'm looking at a new HP for me--in CompUSA they have a pavilion m1090n photosmart minitower with a "Windows XP Media Center 2004" OS, and I have to see what this is comparable to. Is it a newer version of Home XP or is it the workhorse that XP Pro is only with media functionality? This thing has lots of plugs on the front, and considering that I am wanting to work with my Dad's music and need to plug in various media, all of the white, yellow, and red plugs may come in handy. Plus it has a removable 160 gig "personal media drive" which is for what I was doing with my remote 120 gig hard drive--backups, transporting big files, etc. This machine also has a card reader buillt in on front. Saves on replacing that device.

At the HP web site they don't list the above computer (which has no expansion slots available because it is a minitower). They have instead a comparable media center pavilion m1050y. I've made cursory comparisons so far. This also appears to have no expansion slots. So my zip drive and a floppy drive will have to be external. I have too much old stuff on floppies that haven't been put on CD (that is a project I was about to undertake) that I need one still.

The Dell Dimension 4700 that the kids had is not like the Dell Dimension 4700 they're selling now. But if I get a new one with the same upgrades I planned for the older machine, it won't be bad. I think in comparing them, the HP offers more useful functionality, because they certainly will use the plugs more and I haven't gone in to look at the Dell close up (this old machine takes too long to load those pages). And it makes sense to get the backup for them also.

Dell is offering a free upgrade to a 17" flat panel monitor right now. To look at the one HP you'll have to visit the CompUSA web site, the others are at HP and Dell sites.

I'm off to do some looking. Keep the observations coming--they are very helpful!

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: John C.
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:10 PM

If it's any help, I bought a Compaq machine just over a year ago - it was in a post-Xmas sale in my local computer store. It has an Athlon processor (2.17Ghz), 512 MB of DDR ram, a 120 GB HD and a DVD writer/+RW re-writer. Apart from a couple of niggles it works fine. Best of all though, it came with excellent documentation which actually makes sense!
The HD is great - I've got loads of MP3s, digital photos etc. on it and have barely made a dent.
The other great feature is (as someone mentioned above) 2 USB ports, firewire and line in/line out jack ports (or whatever they're called) on the front - what an innovation!! The latter feature means (among other things) that it is easy to plug your stereo amp into the machine and digitise all your LPs.
I suspect that computer nerds would tend to turn their noses up at a machine from a company as mainstream as HP/Compaq but I have never regretted my choice.

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:18 AM

I forgot about the software in that last post. I lost a lot--because though my house is messy, I am organized, and I had a shoe box beside each machine with the software installed on it plus documentation. They stole those boxes. There was a lot of software, and it has also gone to new versions since I purchased it. Oy. So much research to do!

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:15 AM

Mark, thanks. I was composing my post when a couple of others were added. I lost a lot of scholarly work and a lot of important emails that I should have printed as hard copies. From a deceased scholar friend, and his relatives and some colleagues, in particular. This is going to be difficult to do without. I'm also realizing all of the ways that important numbers, passwords, and accounts are in those files. How many other people kept those emails confirming passwords? I did. And they're there for whoever has the computer to discover. So I've been changing passwords today.

I went to CompUSA and I saw those HPs, Bill. I had an HP (one of the two stolen computers) and I can easily see getting another. But I'll look at what Dell has to offer. The HP setup is sweet for the kids, with their heightened interest in music and videos, but it should also work very well for me (ESPECIALLY because the plugs are ON THE FRONT!!! WHAT A CONCEPT! WHERE YOU CAN REACH THEM! Okay, raving is over. But geez, how long did it take them to figure out to put more than one or two USB plugs on the front?) Anyway, I will be ordering something soon.

Okay, Randy Cohen (the NPR ethicist) may not be a Mudcatter but here's a question: I previously spent over $5000 on the two computers and peripherals. It goes back over 5 years. I bought good quality equipment, though it was usual a step or two below the fastest, because the fastest always cost so much more. The HP was probably about $3400 before, then add on the monitor, printer, etc. The fastest HP I saw this evening was just the processor (and a wireless keyboard and mouse, but I don't like those so would get the ones I like) for $1500. My monitor was a 15" Dell LCD. Same as the kids' was. For what I spent a few years ago, the equipment is better and has come down in price so I could get a lot more for the money. Do you think insurance people are going to accept that if I have to bother to replace my equipment, I'm going to upgrade to what is available now, and not go back and buy more 15" monitors because that is the size I lost, or a computer that isn't quite as fast, because my computer was old and slow? I have "replacement cost" insurance once I meet my 1% deductible. Has anyone else had to deal with this? They won't have to spend nearly as much, even if I go for top-flight features, as I paid when I bought these computers years ago.   

As an aside, I have to repair the door that was kicked in. I don't want to put it back "as it was," I want to prevent this from happening again. So it looks to be in my and the insurance company's best interest if I reinforce my door. So while I'm talking about upgrading computers, I'm also going to be discussing whether to replace the door and jamb, or repair the jamb, keep the old door, but buy and install a heavy-duty security door.

So many things to juggle, along with the credit stuff. Insight from anyone else who has already trod this path is welcome!

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

Mark Cohen -

I followed the release and commentary quite closely since SR2 was first announced, and have always recommended it for those who don't have specific reasons for leaving it off. The security fixes are quite significant, although most people only see the surface. Unfortunately some of the surface stuff can be quite annoying, although most of it can be tamed with minor adjustment of settings.

Quite a few people do run WinXP on machines that are marginal for the OS, and if that's your case you need to look carefully at problems you may run into. There are a few programs that run under WinXP earlier patches that are not compatible with SR2. Program patches are now available for many of them. The actual number of programs that have problems is fairly small, but a few of them are quite popular. Even Microsoft Office programs recommend a couple of patches before installing SR2, but you'll have them already if you've stayed current with the update site recommendations.

And I still recommend ordering the free CD and archiving it with your other install disks, even if you get SR2 through the download. If you have to reinstall for any reason, you'll want to install SR2 (and your AV) before you go to the web to get the new installation current with later security updates.

One result of SR2 distribution is that new attacks against older versions that still have old holes seem much more common than pre-SR2. I've seen some indication that the slime are moving back to trying to use Win98/WinME/Win2K vulnerabilities more often than they did a few months ago, simply because it's much more difficult to use WinXP-SR2 machines as zombies for their spam or for other purposes. There also may be some increase in browser attacks that are NOT specific to a particular browser, since latest IE6 patches are making attacks more difficult - and other browsers are getting "useful" market share.

Old hardware, limited machine resources, old or special purpose programs, and some freeware/shareware are the main barriers to using SR2 for individual users. Network Admins should be knowledgeable enough to identify legacy software and/or network protocols that might cause difficulty on their systems. By now you should be able to identify quite specifically any reasons for not installing it. It was reasonable to "hold off for a while;" but by now you should be able to state the exact program/hardware/network protocol that needs fixed first before claiming there's any reason not to get it on.

I really would recommend that those who tried SR2 and couldn't get it to work should be trying to figure out why, and get their systems up to date so they can try again. I recognize this is difficult, and a few people may have identified specific things they believe they can't fix. It's a matter of balancing convenience and cost vs. acceptable risk.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:44 PM

We had a large collection of 1-Gig JAZ disks which we are gradually transferring to CDs. Urge you to do the same if the stored data on those Zips is unique, irreplaceable, highly important, etc.

The DVD speed is only an issue of you are thinking of frequent access. Most archives are drawn on between once and twice over years. It's a tardeoff. Maybe the OSX access time is less, I don't know.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:36 PM

John and all, thanks! Jon, you are right, and there was a card reader on my daughter's Dell. I'd forgotten about it.

I have been doing this stuff for quite a while, and was getting ready to upgrade my Win2000 to XP Pro next month. I get the disks for next to nothing through a Microsoft agreement at the university. I'll get the productivity software for $21 (MS Office 2003) and my Dreamweaver and such from them. I can't use it twice (they've made that unhappy change in the last year) so I'll have to buy the suite for the kids. I'll compare prices, having it preinstalled vs buying it at a discount but not the deep discount on campus. I'll get the campus Symantec software (Antivirus and Firewall). I used Nero on the HP, and the kids were using some form of Roxio on the Dell. Came with it. I think my Nero disk went out the door, so I'll take your recommendations to heart.

I hate the cutesy flashy video and music junk they preinstall on the home computers. Both will have HP Pro and we'll go for the more powerful productivity stuff in the small office environment.

Much of what was on my old computer is what John described in his discussion, except the drive wasn't as large, and the speed and RAM smaller. Ironic that to "replace" my computer equipment, the insurance company spends less for better equipment than I spent a few years ago.

I have to also replace all of the little dangly things from the computers. I had a USB cable thing that allowed four plugs from one, into which I had a couple of camera cables plugged, etc. With the computer and everything went my cables. So I have cameras with no cables. I'll have to find replacements or replace the entire camera. I'm fairly new to digital cameras, so I'll do some asking around before I act.

I was using 250meg zip disks, and some 100meg disks a friend gave me. If I get a drive that holds larger disks, it will still run the smaller ones. I just can't run bigger disks than the drive is rated for.

I'm going to go through the memory options carefully. The type of memory in my HP was one that didn't become the industry standard, though it was highly rated. I was preparing to buy another pair of those to up my memory, at a cost somewhere between $300 to $400. I want to get memory that is more eaily available and where there are expansion slots should I need them.

The software we lost is going to be a big expense. There was a box by each computer with the programs that were installed on it. They grabbed those. I have bits and pieces, a few disks that were somewhere else, but most of the productivity software went out the door also.

I'm off to look now. If I see a good offer, I may just get it, because it seems that if I've already purchased the new computer and they find my old one, then they simply want the old one turned in. I'd keep the hard drive, thank you very much! I am not impulsive when it comes to computers, though, so I'll do some comparing and will visit your links first. I am on the old 133mhz laptop on a dialup connection, so browsing is painstaking.

Along with the computers I need to get an additional backup drive, and this time, I'll keep it somewhere else when it isn't in use.

I've spent time this evening changing passwords so that anyone with my computer can't log onto some of my major accounts. It's bad enough they can easily see what's already in the computer. I will be a reformed character--think twice about checking "remember this password." It can bite you if the computer is stolen.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:30 PM

lots of good deals on HP desktops these days as they phase out the name. And they do integrate very well with HP printers & scanners...etc...We got 160 gig HD, 512mb SDRam, DVD/CD writer, built in front panel USB and camera card reader...etc... for about $800 (with rebates.) I kinda like the system.

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:04 PM

PS, Maggie, my condolences. As the saying goes, that really sucks. I hope nothing else was taken/damaged.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Peripherals--from scratch
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM

Marginally relevant aside:

So, John, are you now coming down in favor of adding SP2 to WinXPPro? Mickey keeps asking me to do it and I keep saying no, based on earlier reports of problems.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Perpherals--from scratch
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:14 AM

SRS -

Since HP and Compaq have merged, it's a little uncertain which you're getting from either of them now. I haven't looked recently in detail, but a few months ago it looked like you might get an HP computer with a Compaq name on it, or the other way around. Both have good reputations, but each has had some minor quirks. Latest gossip is that they'll probably settle out eventually with only Compaq desktops/laptops, HP maybe still for some servers, but the HP name going almost exclusively to printers and scanners. I wouldn't be too reluctant to buy from either now, but I'd be careful about "spec-ing out" what I was getting.

With HP/Compaq, you need to watch what you're getting for "productivity suites" as sometimes in PCs I've looked at they've made "innocent" swaps to slip Lotus Works and other suites in on specific models, with Office on others. The "others" are generally good suites, and have their defenders, but most people who've used both Lotus and Office (especially if they got good at both) get upset with anything but Office. Suite yourself, but pay attention to what you're getting.

Even if the machine you're looking at says "Microsoft Office" you need to check very carefully to be sure what specific issue they're talking about. OEM versions of "Office" a few months ago came in at least 3 separate "Home Editions," 3 or 4 "Small Business Editions," and about 4 different "Professional Editions." Although they've improved a lot, I'd suspect you won't be happy with any of the "Office Home" packages. The "Small Business" editions should all have "real" Word and Excel but may omit various from the Access, Project, Publisher, etc. lines. The same goes for the "Professional." Make SURE THAT THE PACKAGE contains the specific programs you want.

My last 5 desktops have all been Micron, now called just "MPC" for computers. Back when there really was a "nerd factor" difference, the reviews consistently showed them having the little extras and well-balanced products. Since everything now is competitive on cost-only, it probably makes less difference, but I'd probably go back.

MPC gives you a choice of going in as a "Home" user or as "Home Office/Small Business/." I've found recently that it's easier to put together a good office machine – probably what you want – as a Home Office/Small Business customer. You can check out both, but the "home" machines seem, like most makers, to go toward "wonderful multimedia" at the expense of office performance. Our last 4 MPC desktops have been from the Millennia line, which generally provided good office capability without too much "consumerist" trash. (You may actually want some of the trash(?) – and you can get a lot of it.) Support has been better than what I've heard for users of other similar hardware, and we've required relatively little.

I found a better deal from Dell for a laptop a couple of years ago, and it's been a really good machine, but there's no way any laptop can replace even a mediocre desktop if you really need to use it.

With a new machine you almost certainly want Windows XP pre-installed. The usage you've indicated in previous "conversations," I would say, mandates WinXP-Professional. There have been a few people for whom I've suggested saving the few bucks to get a Home version, but the expectation there was they really just wanted a "modern doorstop." They're happy with XP-Home, but I woudn't be; although the differences now are not as significant as they were a year or so ago.

You should be sure to get SR-2 preinstalled, assuming you go with WinXP. You'll probably have a hard time getting a new machine anywhere now without it.

With WinXP, I'd really recommend at least a 120GB hard drive. With Win2K, many machines came with 30GB, mainly because early Win2K couldn't read a FAT32 disk larger than that, and machines were delivered with FAT32 for "compatibility." Most WinXP machines now should come with the hard drive in NTFS, and larger sizes are no problem for the WinXP OS to manage in either format.

While WinXP will theoretically run on 128MB RAM, my personal minimum acceptable would probably be 512MB. (I might buy "her" one with 512MB.) I run 1024MB in my own main machine, and would hate to have less. (Not everyone builds 60MB Word files 3 at a time or opens 40 photos at a time in Photoshop Elements. I've become accustomed to it.)

Many new machines will come with DVD/ROM and DVD-R/RW, with the DVD-R/RW being the burner. You're unlikely to find them without the "Compact Disk" logo, but you should check to make sure. DVD/ROM with the "Compact Disk" capability is indistinguishable from a CD-ROM drive for reading CDs, and lets you watch DVD movies if you wish. You can read your DVDs from the DVD burner, so there's no real handicap in having a CD-ROM with a CD-compatible DVD burner.

DVD-R/RW with the "Compact Disk Rewritable" label should work fine for burning CDs, although they may be somewhat slower than a "comparably spec'd" CD-R/RW on CDs. There are at least 3 DVD formats in use, and in earlier drives they were NOT interchangeable. DVD–R and +R are the two most used. Verifying exactly what you're getting may be worthwhile, and you'll likely see them as "DVD-R/RW," "DVD+R/RW," or "DVD-R/RW+R/RW," along with more exotic naming.

I've found DVD for data backups nearly useless. You can put an enormous amount of stuff on one, but accessing and retrieving a few files from one is so slow I generally just use a stack of CDs. They're a little more reliable, perhaps, than mini-tape backup, but not really much faster, especially for retrieval – for the ones I've tried to run. (And I can label a CD with something fairly meaningful, but a DVD isn't big enough to describe the "usable content" on the disk. Stick-on labels have worked fine for me on CDs, but are NOT safe on DVDs. Unless things improved while I wasn't watching, putting a label on a DVD nearly always makes it unreadable, eventually if not immediately. They do sell labels for them, so you may get better mileage.) DVDs are for Music and Video.

For a basic MPC machine, I started with the MPC Millennia 940i Professional, (a little down on the page) If you click the "Buy/Configure" button, you'll find a base price of about $1200. With a quick-look selection of what I thought you might like, and/or what I'd recommend, I came up with a pretty decent setup, perhaps, at about $2400. (The flat panel monitor is a big part of the add.) I note that there was a free upgrade to 512MB RAM and to 120GB hard drive, but I forgot to look at whether that was figured in. You can configure a machine/software, recalculate total (you have to click the button to recalculate when you make changes), and save quote. They ask for an email addy, and will send you a copy of the spec and quote. They promise to sell for that price, to that spec, for a time; but it's non-binding on you if you go back and find it's cheaper. You can go back to it and change, etc. for a reasonable time while you look at other systems. I haven't gotten a lot of spam from giving these guys my email addy when I pulled specs for others fairly recently. (Most web sellers do offer something similar, with the spam variable).

Looking back at your spec., I believe I omitted the ZIP drive. (If they're older disks you may find it hard to get a 100MB or 250MB ZIP drive now without a special order.) The mem card reader is a good idea, but you can get a plug-in for your USB-2 port for $30 or so, and many printers now come with ports to read cards.

Note that I went to MPC because I've been there recently, and sort of knew what they had. I've been happy with them, they're in Idaho and build here, but Taiwan makes good stuff too. The above was more to see what the current market is than to recommend a specific setup.

SUMMARY – I'd suggest:

512MB Minimum RAM
120GB Minimum HD (80 GB acceptable, but I consider it marginal)
WinXP-Professional SR2 preinstalled
Office Small Business or Office Professional – BE VERY CAREFUL that the specific offering includes the programs you want.
CD-ROM (DVD-ROM okay, but be sure it reads CDs)
DVD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW or "multiformat" DVD burner (be sure it burns CDs)
Monitor – your choice, but many sellers are quoting without monitor, so make sure you get one.

Options: Either Roxio or Nero are good burner programs. I use Roxio for data and Nero for audio, usually. WinXP has "built-in" capability, and there are "OEM Bundle" products sometimes offered; but you have more control with a burner program.

"Integrated Sound Cards" are usually okay, but if you want to do much real sound work this is one of the few areas where I'd suggest "take what they offer" and plan to get an add-on later. (If the OEM installs it, the "maker" won't support it, and the OEM won't know anything about it and can't support it.)

Peripherals later maybe.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Perpherals--from scratch
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:01 AM

Sorry to hear about this SRS.

I'm UK but over here Dell do have a good name. My brother bought one of thier machines last time round and is very happy with it.

I can't really offer much more than that as I tend to work on when something breaks - it's more likely that if I had a need, I'd be replacing components rather than buying a system. The spec you have suggested 2.6 is faster than anything I have but I don't have the need for that. 1ghz is overkill for me...

Anyway, best of luck with your search.

Jon

PS. One thing I think I would add I don't see you have mentioned is a card reader. I find one handy both for the camera and as "occasional storage". In some ways I'd suggest it is my replacement for a floppy, alhtough personally, I still would not want to be without the floppy.

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Perpherals--from scratch
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:57 AM

Get a UPS which will maintain an hour or two of current enough to save your data.

I would suggest shifting your Zip drives to CDs.

If you can find it get a drive that will do DVDs, DVD-R, CD-R as well as playing CDs. They often come with new Apples; you could do worse than make the change, but that's up to you.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: New Computer & Perpherals--from scratch
From: hesperis
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:49 AM

For wireless, go with 801.11g for the router and all cards. It won't surf faster but it will transfer data between your computers faster.

Subject: Tech: New Computer & Perpherals--from scratch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:19 AM

The bad news is, three punks from the wrong side of town kicked in my side door and stole my HP and Dell computers. They haven't been caught, but a neighbor saw them and got their vehicle license. The Dell was new--Fall 2003, the HP was from 2000, but high end at that time. CD, DVD, Zip drive, big drive. Fast. It was still great, and had lots of years left, but needed more memory, that's all. The good news is, I get two new computers and those same peripherals (the insurance company lucks out--it won't cost them nearly as much now as it cost me then to get a comparable computer).

I figured out this evening that I can replace these (I need to--we're a computer family, and I telecommute more than 50% of the time) and if my computer is recovered (cross your fingers--I'm in deep shit if that hard drive ends up in the wrong hands--EVERYTHING is on it and there is no password) they simply want the old computer--sans the hard drive. I hadn't planned to get a new computer now, so I haven't been doing any research. What have some of you been looking at, and what sells you on these computers? This is what I want to replace:

at least 80gig hard drive

at least 2.6 gig speed

CD drive

DVD drive (one of these has to be a burner also)

Zip drive (I have too much invested in my zip disks to drop them now)

a flat panel LCD monitor

a flatbed scanner

a laser printer

a Logitech keyboard

a power supply and a power strip (mine went with everything else)

I had a Logitech track ball, replaced this weekend after my last one wore out, and it is perfect. This is the only thing I will replace with an identical--I adore it.

Most of my stuff was HP. The kids' Dell also needs to be replaced, but their computer is still made, is still good, and will be ordered almost the same. They also need a new ink jet color printer. The Dell has a noisy CD drive (really noisy!). Should I get two Dells, or are there other computers out there that Mudcatters are in love with (in the U.S.) these days? Links to manufacturers also would help.

I'm going to die a slow death until I'm back online on my DSL connection. This is posted via my ancient laptop and dialup. My DSL modem was ripped from the wall, the router and wireless network card are gone. All must be replaced. Again, any recommendations? We need wireless. My 801.11b worked just fine. Basically, I liked what I had in the whole older HP computer system (note: the modem will have to come from my IP folks--they're picky that way) but would like the functionality of the newer computers and OSs.

I won't be able to check in easily for a couple of days, but I eagerly await your enumerations of the reasons why the system you recommend would be good for me to consider. (I have also to replace software--they picked up the boxes of software beside each computer).

SRS