Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:35 AM I remember getting GBH of the ear'ole from the great god McColl for mistakenly announcing 'Jowl and listen, lads' (Tommy Armstrong ? Jack Elliott ?) as traditional. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:09 AM Dancing Queen by Abba (not necessarily an upbeat disco-pop song when handled with care) |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: mattkeen Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:50 AM Ghost Town - The Specials Londons Calling - The Clash White Riot - The Clash (Virtually everything else by the Clash) Ian Dury (lots of) |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: M.Ted Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM One point that some people seem blissfully unaware of, is that the sound that we think of as appropriate for "folk" music is really of a very recent innovation--whether the sound, and the music played in the fashion, will persist, is a fair question though. My thought is that the present day music that lasts will be reinterpreted in new musical styles that have yet to evolve, and, likely, many of us will not like-- |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Scoville Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:32 PM RAGG MOPP! I haven't heard that in years! I was forced to learn it almost at gun-point by my fourth-grade music teacher! |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Fidjit Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM Mary Ellen Carter, Stan Rogers Chas |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:24 PM Working Man by Rita MacNiel, a great song, it has already reached folk status in many parts of Atlantic Canada. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM Lotof Jethro Tull, Songs from Thw Wood, Heavy Horses, Jack In The Green and so on. I have always felt that His music has been highly underated over the years. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,JT Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:10 AM " The Perfect Mark of Cain" Jeff Finlin. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: ossonflags Date: 01 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM "if I was a blackbird" by Ronnie Ronalde |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Scrump Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:57 AM One of those coincidences that makes you wonder if they really are coincidences: after reading this thread for the first time yesterday, last night I saw Phil Beer sing Billy Joel's "Downeaster Alexa" (mentioned by George Papavgeris above). He did it in great style too - this was Phil's solo spot in the current Show of Hands tour. It took me by surprise because I've seen SOH twice before on this tour, and he did different songs on the previous two occasions - this one was by far the best of the three IMO. Or maybe it isn't a coincidence after all, and Phil's a Mudcatter too? ;-) Unfortunately I didn't see Phil afterwards this time, or I would have asked him. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: oldhippie Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:34 PM "The Saints Who Have Never Been Caught" - Larry Jon Wilson THE SAINTS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CAUGHT by Aaron Allen and Lee Fry Beacon Light Music (BMI) recorded by Larry Jon Wilson on "Sojourner" If a man ever yields to temptation And breaks some tradition or law They look for no good in his makeup And Lord, how they look for his flaws Chorus: I'm a sinner, Lord how I know it I'm weak, and I've blundered, I've failed And I've tossed around on life's ocean Like a ship so lost in a gale They don't ask how he was tempted, Or allow for the battles he's fought His name becomes food for the jackals All the saints who have never been caught Chorus Temptation is a whispering mistress Like others I've heard her sweet call I've yielded to the fire of the moment I've known the shame in the fall Chorus I'm willing to trust in the Lord's mercy Do the best my conscience has taught But deliver me, Lord, from the judgment Of all the saints who have never been caught |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:32 PM "Ragg Mopp"? Never heard of it. "Itsy-Bitsy, Teenie-Weenie, Yellow Polka-Dot Bikini" I doubt if many people outside the generation that grew up with it will be likely to ever sing it. I should probably have included that in my rule of thumb. Out of the thousands of Victorian parlour songs and music hall songs, or only a relative handful have made it through in that way. And the same goes for other types of soings that were populat in their day. If it does pass that test, I'd class it as a folk song - well, I did say that there are some folk songs that aren't much good. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Bunnahabhain Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:05 PM Another of the great singer-songwriters, writing about things that will still ring true centuries from now. Leonard Cohen. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Stower Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:39 PM A song with a story? Songs that lots of people have remembered and sung? Songs where people don't know / care who wrote it? Two Little Boys Ernie (The Fastest Milkman in the West) Tie A Yellow Ribbon Lola |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Bill D Date: 30 Nov 06 - 05:24 PM That's a very useful 'part' of a good test, Kevin, but as phrased, it would allow things like "Itsy-Bitsy, Teenie-Weenie, Yellow Polka-Dot Bikini", or "Ragg Mopp" to be called 'folk' if they are learned from the oral tradition, and I have a few "itsy-bitsy,teeny weenie" philosophical issues with that...*grin* I just think that subject matter, melody style, age...and a few more ought to be considered IF it becomes an issue...like whether to included it in the Digital Tradition database. And, as a matter of fact, I'm sure Dick & Susan do subjectively use criteria like that when adding to the database, even if they don't consult some detailed list. |
Subject: RE: Songs that could yet be folk songs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:42 PM Basically what determines it, for me, is when a song gets passed on by people who may have no idea who wrote it and recorded it, they just heard someone singing it and liked it enough to sing it themselves. Once that happens a few time, it's into the oral tradition, which is what counts. But I quite agree with dick greenhaus that "folk" shouldn't be used as a value judgement - plenty of great songs that aren't folk songs yet, and plenty of great songs that will never become folk songs; and a fair number of songs that are undeniably folk sings that aren't that good. And I also agree that "should have been" is the wrong word - "could yet be" might be better, which is why I modified the heading in this post. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Bill D Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:08 PM Ok, Mick, thatnk you..*smile*...that's all I have tried to say for years. Sometimes I said it too much like a 'purist snob', but I just wanted to have a way to identify stuff with a basic 'feel' to them. You (and I) sing many things which are clearly not strict or traditional folk, (and the "guilty pleasures" workshop at the Getaway clearly acknowledged the differences), and 'good' songs SHOULD be done, but "Songs that should have been folk songs" ought to be a pretty tight category...that is, they need to come close to fooling us about their origins. Interestingly, I just listened to a recording of "Shawnee Town" done by Johnny Collins & Jim Mageean (about moving a river boat with oars & poles) which was done 'right'...with the rhythm, meter and 'feel' of the job it was written about. Compared to some of the high-speed 'bouncy' versions I have heard the last few years, it really felt good. There are many characteristics which swing a song into or out of, the 'folk' mode, and sometimes the lines are blurry, but that shouldn't keep us from looking for the lines when we want to make certain kinds of lists. (gee....there I go again...*grin*) |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: dick greenhaus Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:03 PM Why should any of these songs have been folk songs? "Folk" isn't a value judgment, any more than "Pop" is. There are good songs and bad songs in any genre, and I fail to see what is gained by continuing this water-muddying. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: akenaton Date: 30 Nov 06 - 02:58 PM Road Rage by Catatonia has an earthy folky sound! I bet Cerys Mathews started off singing folk. Anything by the Kaiser Chiefs, their songs are so infectious.(no sarky comments please) Their concerts remind me of the atmosphere at the big folk clubs way back then |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:38 PM "Dignity" Deakon Blue |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Big Mick Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:52 PM You know, Bill, and I hate to admit this, but you are finally winning me over. Especially that last post. I do many songs that are not folk songs, but are played in the folk style. I know of many songs that folkies love me to play (The Dutchman, The Rare Old Times, Hiring Fair, etc and on and on) that are not folk songs. I have come to agree that we need to keep what is folk a bit pure, but not react so angrily at folks that play folk styled music. Mick |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Bill D Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:48 PM I have just watched "Moonlight Shadow" in 3 versions, and I have to say that, although it is an interesting and 'intense' song with several virtues, it just doesn't 'feel' like what I associate with 'folk'. The rhythm, tune pattern, and evocation of images are a modern 'pop-rock', singer-songwriter combination. I am not good enough at dissecting these things to spell out every nuance, but the song just 'drives' in a way I don't associate with folk. As performed, it doesn't feel like a song I could sing, or that someone would just sit in their living room and sing with friends. Could it be done more simply, without all the added images and drums? Perhaps...but it just feels like a song to be performed, not shared. As you see, (and many remember about me), I take a fairly narrow view of what ought to be called folk. I like many other songs, I just prefer my favorite category to not be diluted by everything that gets popular or is considered 'good'. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Scoville Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:03 PM Without arguing about what is and isn't folk, these at least are not traditional: PeterA beat me to it but I was going to say Steve Earle. Almost anything by Steve Earle. Second "Sixteen Tons", "Dark as a Dungeon", and "Coal Tattoo". Add Wheeler's "Red-Winged Bird", as well. Norman Blake's "Billy Gray" Lucinda Williams' "Concrete and Barbed Wire" Gillian Welch "Everything is Free" and "One Morning", among many others A lot of stuff by Slaid Cleaves OCMS "Wagon Wheel" |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Gwenzilla Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:45 AM Several of Dougie Maclean's songs come to mind, including the ubiquitous "Caledonia," but I'd also give a nod to "Singing Land." |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:45 AM "Rain, Steam and Speed" by The Men They Couldn't Hang may be borderline as they're folk-rock anyway, but it is about building Brunel's stuff so fits in with the OP's interest in working songs. And it looks forward at the end to the channel tunnel. But also a few less immediately obvious types -- Wishbone Ash, "Leaf and Stream", unusually acoustic for them: "Alone I've walked this path for many years, Listened to the wind that calls my name. The weeping trees of yesterday look so sad, Await your breath of spring again." Crowded House, "Four Seasons in One Day": "It doesn't pay to make predictions Sleeping on an unmade bed Finding out wherever there is comfort There is pain only one step away Like four seasons in one day" Procol Harum's "A Salty Dog": "Upon the seventh seasick day we made our port of call A sand so white, and sea so blue, no mortal place at all" Crash Test Dummies and "God Shuffled His Feet": "And what with God there, they asked him questions Like: do you have to eat, or get your hair cut in heaven? And if your eye got poked out in this life Would it be waiting up in heaven with your wife? God shuffled his feet, and glanced around at them The people cleared their throats, and stared right back at Him." I've always had a soft spot for Pink Floyd's (Syd Barrett's) whimsical "Bike": "I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like. It's got a basket, a bell that rings And things to make it look good. I'd give it to you if I could But I borrowed it." And back to whaling, Mountain's "Nantucket Sleighride": "Starbuck's sharpening his harpoon The black man's playing his tune An old salt's sleeping his watch away He'll be drunk again before noon" |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: melodeonboy Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:49 AM Much of Ian Dury's repertoire. "Billericay Dickie" in particular |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Scrump Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:29 AM This is an interesting thread started by George, that I've only just seen thanks to it being refreshed by McGrath of Harlow. It seems to me there is a bit of muddying of the water between contemporary singer-songwriters who are already regarded as being in the folk category, and others who definitely are not. For example, many of Joni Mitchell's songs have been sung in folk clubs since the 1960s, and although there are always hardcore traddies who would say her songs are not folk music, I think I'm right in saying that most of us would regard a lot of her early output in particular as being in the folk domain. Likewise, Bob Dylan, Harvey Andrews and Suzanne Vega have been associated with the folk scene in their time (whether or not you agree that they should have been is another matter entirely, that I don't want to get into in this thread). Whereas artists like Rod Stewart, Slade, Billy Joel, Cindi Lauper and Dire Straits would not normally be regarded as having anything to do with folk. Yet, as people have said in this thread, some individual songs by these artists can be imagined sung in a folk setting. I'm not sure where you draw the line between 'people who are sort of folky already' and 'people who have nowt to do with folk music', but I guess as always this would be subjective. By coincidence, last Saturday I had the radio on in the car and the DJ played Slade's "Far Far Away" and I remarked to Mrs Scrump that I could imagine singing a 'folky' version of it, something I hadn't thought of before, even though I'd heard the song before many times over the years. I'm not sure what it is about a 'non-folk' song that gives it 'folk possibilities'. I think perhaps sometimes it's the lyrics, which may be dealing with something different than the usual 'lurve' subject matter - perhaps they tell an interesting story, or deal with topical issues; or maybe the tune has a 'folky' feel to it somehow. I think the Slade one I quoted above is probably in the latter category, but I'm not really sure why. I have seen people do 'non-folk' songs in folk clubs (e.g. I saw someone do The Beatles' Eleanor Rigby, which raised a few eyebrows when the singer announced it, but it has a (sort of) story to it and it seemed to go down well with the audience in spite of the possible misgivings (he did give it a 'folky' arrangement on acoustic guitar which helped its 'folky' credentials). |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: The Sandman Date: 30 Nov 06 - 05:20 AM William Brown.not the [richmal crompton characterWilliam Brown[the description of the capitalist system]. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Paul from Hull Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:41 AM There are plenty of songs not within the folk canon that work brilliantly well when 'folkified', & not just those from those songwriters or performers who were folk influenced (Mark Knopfler being a prime example of one who WAS). I suppose it all hinges on the thorny old issue of 'what is/isnt Folk anyway', & the best definition I can come up with, & I've said it before on here is that folk can be 'anything that goes down well with a folkie audience...except for those things that do, but clearly arent!' There is also the things that plainly are, but I have noticed a couple of posts in this thread that put forward stuff that is to my mind, beyond question, notably stuff thats not Trad. but without doubt (to my mind anyway) fits the folk idiom, & which, I would assume, most people would share my opinion that it does. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST Date: 30 Nov 06 - 02:27 AM Khe Sahn (Don Walker/Cold Chisel) I left my heart to the sappers round Khe Sanh And my soul was sold with my cigarettes to the blackmarket man I've had the Vietnam cold turkey From the ocean to the Silver City And it's only other vets could understand About the long forgotten dockside guarantees How there were no V-dayheroes in 1973 How we sailed into Sydney Harbour Saw an old friend but couldn't kiss her She was lined, and I was home to the lucky land And she was like so many more from that time on Their lives were all so empty, till they found their chosen one And their legs were often open But their minds were always closed And their hearts were held in fast suburban chains And the legal pads were yellow, hours long, paypacket lean And the telex writers clattered where the gunships once had been But the car parks made me jumpy And I never stopped the dreams Or the growing need for speed and novacaine So I worked across the country end to end Tried to find a place to settle down, where my mixed up life could mend Held a job on an oil-rig Flying choppers when I could But the nightlife nearly drove me round the bend And I've travelled round the world from year to year And each one found me aimless, one more year the more for wear And I've been back to South East Asia But the answer sure ain't there But I'm drifting north, to check things out again You know the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone Only seven flying hours, and I'll be landing in Hong Kong There ain't nothing like the kisses From a jaded Chinese princess I'm gonna hit some Hong Kong mattress all night long Well the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone Yeah the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone And it's really got me worried I'm goin' nowhere and I'm in a hurry And the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:12 AM How about: "Sixteen Tons" and "Dark as a Dungeon" by Merle Travis, and Billy Edd Wheeler's "Coal Tattoo" . . . and thanks for refreshing this thread. michael |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:46 PM A couple of Norman Blake's originals, "Last Train From Poor Valley" and "Ginseng Sullivan", come to mind. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,nick Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:40 PM sorry realy should have spell checked that last post... too late now Nick |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,Nick Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:32 PM Well I can think of a buch of original tunes by Great Big Sea that would fit the bill, even they do folk & trad also, perhaps they realy are folk to begin with but I nominate... "Helmet Head", the loves and travels of a minor leauge hockey player. "Boston & St Johns" just beautiful "A Boat Like Giddeon Brown" about generations of a family dreaming of a nice fishing boat "Barque In The Harbour" about a dalliance in a far off land "French Perfume" smuggling in New Foundland. I'm sure there are more from this band. And I nominate Jefferson Airplain's version of Wooden Ships for everything! |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:31 PM Enjoyed that video. Whats the words to Moonlight Shadow? anybody know? |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Joe_F Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:21 PM "Waltzing with Bears" (in *two* copyrighted versions) has passed into oral circulation and accreted many additional stanzas. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,Jaze Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:25 PM Circle Game by Joni Mitchell |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Ragman Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM Many years ago, I heard someone quoted as commenting "It's folks that sing songs, I've never heard horses singing songs, so every song is a folk song". I've always wondered why people should feel they have to categorise songs as 'folk' or whatever. Audiences want to be entertained. In most of the sessions and clubs I take part in, any type of song will work, so long as the audience like it. We often have Eagles, Beatles, Richard Thompson,and occasionally we have had some jazz classics. In between, we may have singer-songwriters testing out their new material, and instrumentals with pipes, mandolins, fiddles, and penny whistles. Sometimes we will have visitors from other countries, and they will sing songs from their own culture. When performed well, the audience is content. When exposed to a range of styles and music, performers and audience of all ages and experience can expect to hear sonething new, and something different. We also like to encourage newcomers, so anyone can have a shot. Less experienced singers can often only sing a limited range of songs. If they clash with what the audience wants, then it will be harder for them to get another shot. It's as simple as that. If it's a good song, it should work almost anywhere. Good performers will be able to 'read' the audience and know when a song will or will not work. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,DriveForever Date: 29 Nov 06 - 06:28 PM 'The Ballad of Spider John' by Willis Allan Ramsey, or 'Texas Trilogy' by Stephen Fromholz |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:46 PM I remembered this thread when I came a cross a YouTube clip of a song I brought into the discussion - Maggie Reilly singing Mike Oldfield's Moonlight Shadow. So I thought I'd refresh the old thread and put in the link. I've always liked this song. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:56 PM Some of Hendrixs' stuff could be interpreted in a folkie styling for example "Hey Joe", "The Wind Cries Mary","Little Wing" etc. And I hark back to my bugbear about The Beatles producing numerous folk songs that have all the hallmarks of greatness and will be performed in Folk Clubs around the world for eternity without a shadow of a doubt.You can make up your own lists on that one because we are all entitled to our own preferences and opinions, aren't we? I still think "Norwegian Wood" is one of the best folk songs of the 20th Century though! Regards. Sidewinder. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:35 PM Hardly. Meatloaf's material is overblown, pompous, sub-operatic stuff (though he did manage some adequate Gospel covers before he became famous, if memory serves). I used to play Springsteen's My Home Town occasionally. people usually thought it was a Richard Thompson song they hadn't heard before. Might have been my accent, of course. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:15 PM I remember the House Band at Sidmouth doing a great version of Bruce Springsteen's "No Surrender". Quite a lot of his songs would fit in a song session. Then there's the Sawdoctors - I'd count them as a kind of folk anyway. And how about Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell? |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: George Papavgeris Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:35 PM Jethro Tull - of course... "Songs from the wood", "Steel Monkey", "Jack in the green"..... |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,noddy Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:58 AM A lot of the early stuff by Barclay James Harvest. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:56 AM I think that a lot of Jethro Tull stuff would qualify, especially Heavy Horse, great song. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: The Beast of Farlington Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:19 AM Well, I keep mentioning Steve Earle a lot so that might be why. And he also has a new(ish) album out and is on tour perpetually. And he's very good. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 10 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM Hi, I seem to be reading a lot about Steve Earle recently? So being the discerning musicologist I am, I would put forward "Justice in Ontario" as a fine example of a folk song in the Rock idiom. Regards. Sidewinder. |
Subject: RE: Songs that should have been folk songs From: Wrinkles Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:13 PM I'm kinda surprised that in the context of story-songs no one has mentioned Harry Chapin, although his tunes could hardly be called "folk" his theames certainly were. Jim Croce's story songs were quite folky/bluesy; "You Don't Mess Around With Jim" has been in my set for more years than I care to remenber ;-) |
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