Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:00 PM

So right, Doug C - my apologies.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

James II of England, Wales, Ireland, and a few other places, James VII of Scotland. But that's a bit of a mouthful.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM

Woolfardisworthy doesn't beat Featherstonehaugh- Fanshaw!
English is full of names like Mainwaring which should be said Mannering.

Why does he say James II? Because that was the monarch's name perchance?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

"If you noticed, DougR,....."

Wrong Doug, Ebbie

DC

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Santa
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

Interesting to see the Chesh-ham/Ches-ham bit. Up here in Kirkham Lancashire, the adjacent village is Wesham: Wesh-um to most but Wess-um to some inhabitants. Or Wizzum. The next village is Greenhalgh - Greenhalsh or Greenhash. But Lytham is always Li-thum, never Light-ham or anything similar.

In a more civilised county there's Alnwick - Annik. But everywhere in England you'll find similar.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

McGrath of Harlow, why do you say James II? I suppose you say Edward VII and not Edward II?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: brid widder
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

I think Hotham is Hoth'm or Hothum

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:20 PM

My all time favorite is Woolfardisworthy.....Woolsey!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:03 PM

Jarv-ace.

Anyway, instead of arguing over how to pronunce Edinburgh, why not say Auld Reekie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:42 PM

If you noticed, DougR, we may not be called that, but we too are definitely subject to the vagaries of the government of the country we are citizens of.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

Well done to the original poster for remebering we are subjects, not citizens

Bunnahabhain, you may be a subject but I am a citizen.

Doug C

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

"...we are subjects, not citizens"

Not true, though it's a common assertion. People are subjects of the Queen (or King as may be), and citizens of the country, whichever country that might be, both at the same time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:01 AM

In view of the fact that just about everyone agreed with him, Eric, I should say he proved that he knows...............He Knaws ye Knaw!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:58 AM

I don't think that the term "whig" would have come into use as early as 1647, but not for another 30 years. I'd have thoiught a song with a verse like that woudl have been more likely from a Jacobite source, dating from a tiem after the coup that sent James II into exile.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:45 AM

'ow would banjflower know, he's just a yellowbelly.

eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:15 AM

For everything you want to know about Edinburgh, its history and its music, see Jack Campin's wonderful CD "Embro, Embro". That might give you a clue to at least one pronunciation too!

Embro, Embro

The American price gives you a very generous exchange rate just now!

As for Tyburn, that's where executions were carried out, and where several of the Regicides (those who signed Charles I's death warrant) were hanged, drawn and quartered after the restoration.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM

That said, how does one pronounce the given name Gervase? Or is it Gervaise?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:43 PM

As a rule, final -gh isn't voiced; that's what the "h" is for. I've only ever heard Edinburgh prounced with a final "g" by foreigners (they sometimes also say "Edin-broe". That's wrong, too). It should make no difference at all whether you ask a Scottish or English person; the only variation would be whether the final part is pronounced "bra" or "burra"; and that's merely down to how fast you say it.

That "wined/winned" business is a red herring, really, as poetic diction doesn't reflect contemporary usage. "Mind" and "wind" used to rhyme, true; but neither word was pronounced quite as it is today. "Mind" used to have a shorter vowel sound than it does now.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 PM

Well done to the original poster for remebering we are subjects, not citizens.

I agree with the consesnus on all the pronunciations, BTW.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM

The contemporary pro. of Elizabeth is short, but are you sure the period (time of Shakespeare 1550-1630) pronunciation of Elizabeth is short 'i'? At the time, words like "wind" were pronounced with a long 'i' (like to wind up a toy). The short i is mostly a modern creation in english as the language simplified (short i is easily to say).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:59 PM

The reference to pulling down Tyburn too is that was where the Whigs were likely to finish up themselves , for rebelling against the Monarch !

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:33 PM

BTW Chico,

In the UK, it's not Pronounciation, but (following the Latin root) Pronunciation.

I think you'll find most locals calling Hotham   "Hottum".
And Elizabeth is definitely short i, not like Eliza.

For the rest, Gerry (Banjo-Flower) is right in his first post, including asking a Scot for Scottish pronunciations.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:32 PM

I accidentaly typed in an extra "I", I meant Charles I.

The song in question is "lawyer's lamentation of charing-cross"

The last words are:

Now, WHIGS, I would advise you all,
'Tis what I'd have you do;
For fear the King should come again,
Pray pull down TYBURN too.

This was written in 1647 2years before the beheading. Was this a premonition of the regicide, and the predicted spot? (whether or not it actually occured there?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:28 PM

Because 'tis English, don' chew know. :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM

So why do you pronounce the letter R as "Aw" but when a word ends with the letter A you add an R to the pronunciation?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM

I thought that Charles I was beheaded at the Banqueting House in Whitehall

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:51 PM

Hotham

Difficult, it depends on the derivation of the name and local usage. The element "ham" in a place name should correctly be pronounced separately but modern usage has often changed that. If you are looking for period pronounciation it may be different from modern.

On the London / Essex border Walthamstow was historically pronounced walt-ham-stow but that changed to walth-'am-stow in the 19th century.

On the other side of London the town of Chesham is pronouced Chesh-ham by incomers but you can still find locals who say ches-ham

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:40 PM

"...place of execution/beheading of Charles II" - not an episode known to the historical record. Charles died in his own time. And his father Charles the First was executed in Whitehall, down the other end of London.

Tyburn (pronounced with a tie) is at Marble Arch,and a very popular place of execution for the generality - highwaymen, and Catholic priests and so forth. It's quite near Speakers' Corner - I wonder if that tradition might have been a carry over from the crowds of spectators that used to attend on executions there for hundreds of years, and no doubt got haranged by orators on the scaffold and off it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

Grove-ner.
Edinbra.
Muscelbra.
Titchburn.
Hot-ham (said quickly).
Elizabeth (short not like Eliza).
Tie-burn.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM

Or should Tyburn be pronounced Tie-bun?

Gerry
even deeper in the mire

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:07 PM

No 1 Grosvenor=Grove-ner
No2 Edinburgh (ask a Scot not an Englishman)
No 3 Musselburgh (As Above)
NO 4 Tichbourne = Titch- born
5& 6 =?
No 7 = Tie or Ty(as in Ty Hardin)Burn

Boy am I leaving myself wideopen here

Gerry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: IanC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

Growvna
Edinbra
Musselbra
Titchburn
Hot-ham
Elizabeth isn't eliiza beth
Tie-burn

:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

Grovenor (silent s)

Tie- burn (like neck tie, then burn)

Subject: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM

Can any linguistical expert elucidate the proper pronouciations for these words:


Grosvenor ( silent s or not?)
Edinburgh ('Borough' or "Burg"?)
Musselburgh (Mussel like 'muscle')?
Tichbourne ('sh' or hard 'ch' sound?)
Hotham (Hot-ham? or hoTHam like Gotham?)
Elizabeth (16th century usuage: long or short 'i', like Eliza is pronounced today?)
Tyburn (place of execution/beheading of Charles II. What is the 'y' sound, long or short?)