Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

"Lizzie, please read what I actually said. I'm not saying that Loreena's music is bad, or not beautiful, and I don't doubt she is a sincere and talented performer. All I have said is that I don't like it much, and given my reasons."

Howard, I did, and I've acknowledged it several times over. You are perfectly at liberty to like or dislike whatever music you so choose. We are all different. I completely understand that and have no problem with it whatsoever. What I get cross about is when various artists are referred to in such derrogatory terms, (NOT by you, Howard) particularly with the emphasis seeming to be that all 'Celtic' music is crap, whereas 'ours' isn't.

There is good and bad in all genres of music.

I could give you a few English folk CDs that I've bought which weren't er...exactly to my liking, but I won't do that, because it would upset the artists concerned and that's not fair. Also, what I may not have liked about those CDs, other may love.

I don't regard her music as 'commercial pop' at all, not in any way whatsoever. For me it's a highly unusual blend of music from around the world, woven together by Loreena herself.

Her fiancee was lost in a sailing accident around 10 years back, they never found him. She closed down for several years, understandably, then sought solace in her music, going on her 'journey', as the Youtube video above talks of. She's a highly spiritual lady, a very private one, and a deeply kind one too, taking the trouble to respond to everyone who writes to her, via her staff, and answering their messages through them. I had written contact with one of her band once, years back...and they were kindness and love personified. I was stunned at how helpful they were, and how genuine too.

No way is Loreena McKennitt's music 'commercial pop' in my book, absolutely no way.   Her music is influenced by the world and by the stories within it, the stories within ourselves.

You cannot simply dismiss all 'Celtic' music as crap. Just as you can't dismiss all 'English Traditional' music as crap. To do so would be highly narrow-minded, biased, bigotted and ignorant, in my opinion. (and Howard, I am not talking about you there, so please don't get upset)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM

A few truly spine-tingling moments too, like Sue's 'Blackwaterside'. People in the adjoining bar stopped talking to have a listen.

Eventually!

(My own contribution had a full complement of noises off, which can be a bit irksome when you're halfway through a Child ballad. But Sue's Blackwaterside was a bit good, it has to be said - like Anne Briggs's recording, only better.)

Rosie - back in my unreformed pre-trad days I did an unaccompanied version of Suedehead. "Why do you telephone?" Wonderful.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Gedi
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

"Nothing personal here, just some observations from a newby to folk music and to traditional song. But I feel I would like to respond, as I intitiated this thread in the first place. And it was a good laugh for a while too."

I couldn't agree more, it was a good laugh until the thread got hijacked and turned into a place of admonishment, strangely by someone who says that there's no fun in Folkies!

Like Spleen Cringe above, I too was at that folk club singaround and a great time was had by all. There were serious songs, sad songs, but also funny songs, joyous songs and riotous songs. Folk - whats not to like!

Ged

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Hey, you know what, *sometimes* you guys **can** be wrong.

Has that ever occurred to any of you?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Lizzie, please read what I actually said. I'm not saying that Loreena's music is bad, or not beautiful, and I don't doubt she is a sincere and talented performer. All I have said is that I don't like it much, and given my reasons.

Whatever her influences, the end result seems to me to fit squarely into the post-Clannad "Celtic" genre, which is entirely a marketing concept of the music industry. I have no objection to it being commercially successful and neither do I look down on the musicians who play it. I don't particularly like the term, because this style of music has little connection with real Celtic music, and likewise I don't think it has much to do with folk music. But being commercial pop doesn't mean it can't be beautiful, and that's not what I'm saying.

That's my last word on this, because I don't think this is an appropriate thread to be discussing the merits of Loreena's music - I certainly don't think it's "dreadful" and neither is it the sort of thing the OP was referring to. Her music simply doesn't do anything for me - perhaps that's a failing on my part, but you can't please all the people...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM

"Lizzy . . . .
Listen again to The Scarborough Fair version of The Holy and The Ivy on her Myspace that you put up and you might, MIGHT just see the where the difference. And the commercialism comes in."

Sorry, but what is this *comercialism* of which Ye speak?

I hear a beautifully performed version of a Christmas Carol.

You have to spell it out for me, as I've been told I'm 'intellectually bereft', so I don't always get what you're meaning, I'm afraid.

I did better than listen on the Myspace page though, I bought that CD for my daughter's birthday, just before Christmas! :0)

She loves it!

Not only that, but she played it in the gift shop where she works, down in town, and almost every customer who came in wanted to buy it, thinking it was for sale.

She ended up writing out the name, title and website details, over and over again. One man got terribly upset, because he was desperate to buy it for his wife, and wasn't able to get into Exeter, although to be honest, I doubt he'd have found her music even there.   

Not one person who heard the music had ever heard of Loreena before, but they instantly connected with it, instantly fell in love with it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Terminally bored
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:06 AM

IS it me or is this getting a bit of a personal tirade.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:03 AM

But pray tell me, why is *that* acceptable, yet Loreena isn't? I hear very similar things, the same beauty.
?

Lizzy . . . .
Listen again to The Scarborough Fair version of The Holy and The Ivy on her Myspace that you put up and you might, MIGHT just see the where the difference. And the commercialism comes in.

Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:52 AM

To attempt to get this one back on track before the usual suspect gets it closed down.
Back around 1988 when I got my first CD player, while browsing a reputable record shop I came across a CD called "First Time I Met The Blues" by Eric Clapton. Intrigued since I didn't know that Clapton played the classic title track I paid the £3 asking price and took it home. The result was a dissapointing, random collection of outtakes from his Yardbird days and very little connection with the blues. However about two thirds into the album seemingly Clapton left the building to be replaced by some early, live recordings of The Graham Bond Trio (Bond, Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker - no Dick Heckstall -Smith or John McLaughlin) playing some blistering stuff and Jack singing "First Time".
That bit was so good that someone that I must have loaned it to decided to keep it; however my daughter was able to replace it for me the following Christmas by obtaining a copy from the local petrol station.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:39 AM

It's not the music, SC, it's those who 'surround' it.

Anyways up, I'm off to dig out my Magna Carta LP now and take myself back a few years...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:30 AM

I couldn't imagine stopping enjoying a sort of music because of falling out with someone else who liked that sort of music or because I didn't fancy the look of the audience. Strange stuff.

I was at a mainly but not exclusively traditional folk singaround last night. Lots of traditional English songs, a few Scottish and Irish ones and even a few that weren't traditional (including a lovely rendition of 'The January Man'). Plenty of grey heads, silver heads, bald heads, but not exclusively so. Lots of people having fun, lots of smiles and laughter. A few truly spine-tingling moments too, like Sue's 'Blackwaterside'. People in the adjoining bar stopped talking to have a listen.

Point is, I really don't recognise this assassination of English traditional music as a grim, stiff, boring and soulless place that's being conjured up here by Lizzie. Some of the other posters may be poking fun at the odd bit of commercially successful light entertainment-style folk (not my cup of tea, either. My thumbs are up instead to most of Sleepy Rosie's list, though I'd drop Zappa and add Beefheart), but no-one else is dismissing an entire music and seemingly on the spurious basis that over the years they've had a few internet feuds. Your choice, though. And your loss.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Rosie's a cool gal! She makes me laugh...and she's a real thinker too.

(Rosie, a tip...never, but *****never***** mention the words 'Show of Hands' or 'Seth Lakeman' in an enthooooosiastic manner, or say they've done more to bring in thousands to folk music, and you should be *just* dandy! - Don't tell 'em I told you though, OK?) LOL

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:21 AM

Rosie, you make what seem to be genuine, interested inquiries. You listen to the responses and react with even more interest. People like that and are glad to help and share what they know. It's so unlike someone who wants only to force whatever it is they've just heard down the gullets of all and sundry and is plainly uninterested in anything other than the sound of their own screeching voice. Oh, and Johnny Adams is an excellent mentor. He's been round lots of blocks.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:20 AM

"All human intercourse is fraught with misunderstandings, and no-where moreso than on the internet..."

Yup. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM

"Yet think on this, the very music that they now keep locked up, and look at with cotton gloves on, whilst worshipping at its altar, was once the very music of the masses themselves. I tried to give it back to many, but you know what, they don't want it given back, because they deem it 'theirs' rather than 'ours'."

Well, I can't answer for your personal experiences obviously, but from my own part, I have had a completely different experience from Traddies.

I leapfrogged to Mudcat from a very serious forum on Trad Song (to which I'd been referred by the charming Johnny Adams who also runs the English Song and Dance forum.) The reception to my own queries on those forums (which are much more serious and 'academic' than Mudcat ever is), was wonderfully embracing, informative, encouraging and supportive.

I realised that those forums were too serious and academic for my very newby interest, bad sense of humour and somewhat irreverent manner (I posted as RosaSomniferum there, and again my thanks to those good people who gave me lots of helpful advice). So here I am, in the Cat. Which is rather more suited to my personality and current needs.

My continued curiosity here, has however similarly been answered with nothing but support and encouragement. And although it's a bit more of a schoolyard here, if I ask, I get answers! Ta da! All good. If no-one in the traddie world wanted other people to discover traditional arts, surely I would not have had such supportive responses to my initial forays into heavy-duty traddie forum land. My questions would have been either completely ignored or contemptuously swatted away. But the opposite happened. The people were so friendly, that I quite simply cannot relate to your experiences.

All human intercourse is fraught with misunderstandings, and no-where moreso than on the internet...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:58 AM

Yup, that's right...and I tracked down a few copies..and they then went too after I'd spoken about that CD, but...let's not get in to it all over again, eh.

It's your music, you keep it in it's box and then it will always remain the same. No matter that they are simply songs sung by ordinary people from way back. To you, they are almost holy.

So keep them in your holy book, with its religious rules and boundaries. I'm out here listening and enjoying music that has no boundaries and that belongs to a world where all are welcome.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM

I don't believe in slagging artists off

You did a fairly comprehensive job of trying to slag off PJD after you'd laid hands on one of the last copies of Flat Earth left on this flat earth and despatched it to a charity shop after a mindless spat with one of its members.
No, you didn't "help sell it". It was already all but sold out before you'd even heard of it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:46 AM

There was an awful republican band called Athenrye....I made the mistake of picking up a cd of theirs....the guy who sings is slightly off ey...but that's ok....though the emphasis he puts on the words makes me want to shove a boot down his throat....the pinnacle of the album though is when they play One Sunday Morning....and at the start of the song they are playing a whistle....and it is so terrible....no tune is recognisable....just a shrill piercing noise rupturing my ear drums....reminds me of a girl i dated once...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:44 AM

O Magnum Mysterium


Lovely.

But pray tell me, why is *that* acceptable, yet Loreena isn't? I hear very similar things, the same beauty.

?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:41 AM

Great music from The Chieftans and Emmylou Harris - (Probably sung in the wrong accent, according to some) ;0)



And hey, did you notice?

Emmylou has *silver* hair!

Didn't I tell you, to be sure. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:28 AM

Ah, Dante.
This is taking Divine Comedy and Inferno a tad too literally, wherein lies madness.
You've already been directed to O Magnum Mysterium.
Go.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:23 AM

Rosie, I was banned for constantly jabbering on about English folk music, traditional and non-traditional, on the BBC board, as well as fighting back against the Traddies and their constant put downs of excellent artists in the folk world, who they don't like.

I LOVED this music. I also stumbled into it by accident...

I have since, stumbled out, because of the derrogatory comments and the holier than thou attitude about this music, above all others.

I don't believe in slagging artists off. Yes, they are hugely popular, and so they should be, because they're excellent musicians.
I fought for a very long time to get the names of many other musicians out there too from the English folk world and beyond, but some folks in here took it upon themselves to end all that.

Ask Ralph Jordan, heck, I sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board.

This is a long and terminally boring feud.

For me though, what is so sad is that I feel English traditional music will always remain a minority music because of the way it has been taken over by the pseudo intellectuals.

Any music that appeals to the masses is so often derided on here, because success is looked down upon.

Yet think on this, the very music that they now keep locked up, and look at with cotton gloves on, whilst worshipping at its altar, was once the very music of the masses themselves.

I tried to give it back to many, but you know what, they don't want it given back, because they deem it 'theirs' rather than 'ours'.

So be it.

It's a good thread, and has raised many interesting points, by the way.

(And check out The Body Shop's new 'roll on glitter eye shadow', it's the best I've seen in ages...also Barry M (Superdrug stores) :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM

"It's commercial pop music."

Really?

And there was me listening to Loreena, watching her take the influences of Arab music, Spanish music, Irish, Scots and English music, and meld them altogether to create her own music.

Right, I'll write it out a hundred times then:

"Loreena McKennitt's music of beauty is nowt but commercial pop music."

Then, I shall spin round 10 times singing it...and still I won't believe a single word of what you tell me.

That is your belief, and you are entitled to it, just as you are entitled to like or dislike any music you hear, same with me.

Commercial Pop Music? - Pah! - 'Dante's Prayer'


And Diane, whilst I fully appreciate the National Trust wind up going on there, I think you should maybe know that the 'tat' that you talk of which is sold in their shops, raises millions of pounds for The National Trust in general.

They care for the land you talk of loving so much, the people you love, the heritage you love...

"28 castles, 215 houses and gardens, 150 museums, 127 factories and mines, 57 villages, 47 dovecotes, 25 medieval barns, 78 mills, 19 pubs, 12 lighthouses, 31 nature reserves, 704 miles of coastline and 600,000 acres of countryside....for ever, for everyone."

Maybe you should think on that, before you trash them again.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:04 AM

Rather repeating myself from another thread here...

As a newby with no depth of knowledge about 'folk music' in general or indeed native Traditional arts in particular. It was as I've said elsewhere, the virtually accidental discovery of unaccompanied traditional English song that became my backwards way in to discovering more about the world of 'folk music' more generally.

I was put off of folk music a long time ago, and while no music buff I've always enjoyed stimulating and interesting music. Whether that be Miles Davis, Messiaen Chemical Brothers, Dr. John, Frank Zappa , N.W.A, Bartok or Morrissey amongst lots of others. I was going to make a list of examples of music I don't enjoy, to sort of highlight from my own perspective the point that some others here are tring to get accross, but I can't be arsed and it might even offend someone.

But Morrissey what a fabulous lyricist "Why do you come here? And why do you hang around?" Thanks for inspiring me do that little list, listening to some of those clips has reminded me why I love music, and thus why I am coming and hanging around here. For my own part, I'm genuinely hoping to learn something from all the miserable, boring old, grey-bearded fuckers who are also hanging around here... ;-)

As for glitter and dancing Lizzie, if we meet - you're on! I can still get sparkled up (just check out that chicks excellent sparkley rainbow dress in Dr. Johns backing line-up! I WANT!), and go twelve hours - with some good company, and I'm in my mid thirties so not exactly a kid anymore.

As said before, if my only exposure to 'folk' was the material that gets mass marketed as 'Celtic', and indeed some of the popular material that you are promoting, I would leave it well alone. As indeed I already have for many years... But I must support Diane Easby and others here who feel protective of their tradtitional arts. Massively succesfull popular artists as you have cited, do not need advocates for their work, they already have millions of fans. I stumbeled on traditional English song, by *accident* after researching Irish Sean Nos. To me that says something important. And it is why I believe, some of the members here fight to maintain the integrity of the arts they are advocates for.

Like I said before, I really wouldn't sweat it on behalf of artists like the Corrs, Enya, Celtic Woman et al, because they sure as hell won't be!

Nothing personal here, just some observations from a newby to folk music and to traditional song. But I feel I would like to respond, as I intitiated this thread in the first place. And it was a good laugh for a while too.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:21 AM

Lizzie, I'm definitely not saying that Loreena is "dreadful" - unfortunately, as usual this thread has drifted, but if I'm not mistaken it was you who brought her into the discussion.

It's good music of its kind, and if you enjoy it and it creates a mood for you, good luck to you. The only mood it created for me was one of boredom, but that's my personal taste, not a value judgement.

However I don't see how so-called "Celtic" music of this kind has anything to do with folk music. It's commercial pop music, and while I have no problem with its popular success I question whether it has any place on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Colin Randall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:05 AM

My belated reply to Will Fry is that if my boyhood recording of Runaway still existed, it would probably have to be banned. To say that I couldn't quite get Del Shannon's falsetto would merely obscure my failure to get any other part of the song right, except maybe the words.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:59 AM

My view of anything labelled "Celtic", especially in a heritage tat shop, isn't condescending but highly suspicious.
The peddling of substandard, bland pop masquerading as traditional music is part of the reason why the population at large remains unaware of what our cultural heritage actually is.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:50 AM

"Dreadful is perhaps too impassioned a word to use about McKennit-Enya-like tosh.


And there we have it, once more..the condescension that keeps English Traditional music behind its locked doors.


"The whole point is that it is NOT a "branch" of world music, but commercialised, sugar-coated, very poor but pretentious and rootless pop."

The whole point is that it has roots from many different cultures, all intermingled. And the reason it appeals to so many people is that we're all becoming like the music, branches from many roots, all entwined around one another, all beginning to see that we share the same root.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Tangledwood
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:49 AM

"Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!"

A few days ago I watched a live performance by a Canadian group who took a number of folk standards and gave them a high tempo rock treatment, similar to the Pogues "Transmetropolitan" sound. OK, they were technically quite good and some may enjoy the style but when they applied it to Eric Bogle's anthem "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" it was obvious they had no idea what the song was about.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:34 AM

Er...I think you'll find that Loreena plays many, many instruments Howard.

This isn't about Loreena though, it's about condescending attitudes, for me at least.

"Like much modern commercial music, it makes a nice sound but places no demands on the listener."

Hang on a tick, I've heard much traditional music from the English folk world that makes me want to slit my wrists! Some of it is dirge like, depressing and downright boring.

There are brilliant songs in all genres, and there are bloopers too.
I've sat through many a folk/trad performance where I've wanted to run away. Equally, I've sat through others that have had me sitting on the edge of my chair with the sheer beauty of it all. But many of the artists who are being ridiculed in here could also have me sitting on the edge of my chair with the beauty of their music.

Someone wrote to me last night and said that I needed to open my eyes, to learn.   

Well, pardon me, but I have both my eyes and my ears open, and I love music from all genres, not just one. I don't think that English Traditional is better than Irish, Scottish or American. It's all one and the same, a music that comes from the people themselves and is loved by many of the people.

In England, it is loved by far fewer though, and maybe it's time to start looking into why that is.

Maybe all these ideas about 'putting demands on the listener' have had the opposite effect, and most listeners have thought "Blimey, I got the message at Verse 15, will someone please tell him to stop!"

Music is to be loved and enjoyed, surely, not *just* studied. And *that* is what I see so often in the English folk world, the 'study' of the music rather than the sheer passion.

AND....you're not 'permitted' to swoon over it, or the performers, because if you do, then you'll be hanged, drawn and quartered and your head placed on a pole outside The Tower, but that's mild compared to what would happen if you DARE to have a sense of humour about it...you truly don't want to know what would happen there...

:0)

We have a 'Celtic Music' CD in The National Trust. Our customers love it, and so do I. Sooooo calming, and before I know where I am, I'm drifting away with Rob Roy up in the heather, whilst trying to concentrate on the price of English Honey and things that go bump in the night..

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM

Yes, quite, Bland and uninteresting.

I don't think she was actually playing that accordian (too engrossed in spinning round in circles), just as Nigel Eaton was doing an imitation of grinding coffee. He was dead good in Blowzabella too, but there he had interesting parts to play.

Dreadful is perhaps too impassioned a word to use about McKennit-Enya-like tosh. The whole point is that it is NOT a "branch" of world music, but commercialised, sugar-coated, very poor but pretentious and rootless pop.

I'm mildly surprised that you acknowledge that English traditional music is part of the "world heritage". I recommend a visit to Charlie Gillett's SOTW to repeat that . . .

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:07 AM

Lizzie, I haven't noticed anyone "trashing" Loreena Mckennitt's music. All they've said is that they don't like it, which is quite different.

I listened to one of the links you gave, the mummers song. It struck me as well-performed but I found it uninteresting. Like much modern commercial music, it makes a nice sound but places no demands on the listener. She has a pleasant voice but one without much individual character, and the words were largely inaudible (although I concede that YouTube isn't the ideal listening environment) so I have no idea what she was actually singing about. The instrumental lineup offered scope for something really interesting which never materialised. And was she really playing that accordion? Her fingers didn't seem to move.

There's nothing wrong with liking this stuff, or Enya or Clannad, or any other modern commercial music for that matter. Personally, I find it bland and uninteresting, but I can't deny that it's commercially successful. I don't think it has anything to do with "Celtic" music, but that's a branding issue, or with folk music and I don't really think it has a place on this forum. But that's not to say it isn't good music or that I'm somehow morally superior for preferring something with a bit more substance.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

Loreena talking about her music and her journey to Celtic music. (on Youtube):

Loreena McKennitt - 'No Journey's End' -

I'm saying that English traditional music is only *part* of the heritage of the world music. It is no better than others, it is merely a part, and the condescending tripe that some from the English traditional world go round putting down on messageboards turns more people OFF the music, than turn them on. That's all.

For instance, to trash the music of Loreena McKennitt, an intelligent, passionate, internationally respected and deeply private woman, whose music is incredibly important to her, makes no sense to me, because it simply shows how closed your mind is.


Two of Loreena's band, her hurdy gurdy player and cellist:

Nigel Eaton

Caroline Lavelle

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

I know I'll regret asking this, but . . .

. . . this thread is about the horrors of new-agey, wifty-wafty, plastic-packaged, celticky garbage.
So you pile in more to add to the heap.

What is it, exactly, that you are accusing the "English traditional world" of "holding back"? You are not, surely, seriously suggesting that our English heritage of song, dance and tunes be dumped in favour of that tripe? Are you? You are, aren't you?

[btw Lord Franklin is a tale of ill-advised, imperialistic adventurism set to an Irish melody].

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

I couldn't find Ralphie Jordan on Facebook, try looking for me under my nom de plum of Draper.

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:37 PM

Ok Will I did say a bit of fun but........

Ruth Notman                  6 months
David Ferrard                7 months
Jim Moray                   8 months
Wheeler Street               8 months
Mawkin Causley               9 months
Ralph Mctell                9 months
Nancy Kerr and James Fagin 11 months

All the rest are over a year old......

One of the most popular videos on YouTube is an ape drinking it's own pee - popular, but not exactly tasteful.

Nice try Will but I think most people reading this will understand the basic principle………folk music is but a drop in the big wide world of music…..have a look like I did at the weekend at the folk section in HMV or Fob Selectadisc……. There is more space given to healing music than folk music

Glad you had so many hits…………..just proves my point…Blues is more popular than folk!!! ..

Have a nice day
Tony

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:11 PM

And, after listening to Duncan singing 'Lord Franklin' that reminds me, I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said:

"Most people die at 25 and aren't buried until they're 75"

And some of those people live inside the world of English traditional music. They have held it back for years, and it needs to burst forth with new life, new energy, no rules or regulations and no more condescending comments about other artists.

It just might help those Youtube figures start to rocket upwards!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:01 PM

Oh - should have mentioned that my top-viewed video on YT has had 117,220 views in 13 months which, in theory, puts me (a nobody) well above 26 of the people in your list and below 8 of them. Does this make me better than Martin Carthy (16,138)? Not bloody likely! Mine's a very simple guitar blues instructional video which has probably been watched 100 times each by 100 people.

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

"..Remember one day you will be old too!"

Hey, I'm already there, Ralph, I'm the same age as you! :0)

But I put glitter on my wrinkles and highlights in my hair...and I laugh at the way my chest is so in love with my waist, and the way my waist has gone off in search of my knees..Yikes!! :0) LOL

And soon, I'll be even older in years, but even younger in mind, with more glitter on my ever-increasing wrinkles...and throughout it all I'll tap my feet, clap my hands, whoop and occasionally, on a good day, still throw myself around my bedroom to The Oysterband or Eliza singing (fabulously) 'Ten Thousand Miles' on The Big Session Vol 1...

I may also listen to Clannad or Enya, or Loreena, or Bruce Murdoch, or Ron Bankley or Noah Zacharin, or The Corrs or Barry Lister, or Tom Bliss, or Duncan McFarlane, with or without his band, depending on how energetic I'm feeling at the time.

I tell you what, Ralph, you wanna see another way of seeing English Traditional music? Then pop oop to Otley in Yorkshire when Duncan and his band are playing and you'll see a folk club packed out, with folk jumping up and down, singing along, cheering, clapping, smiling, laughing...and that's just the band!   :0)   

No, seriously though, when I saw them at Otley Folk Festival they were...*sensational* There wasn't room to breathe, and everyone (of all ages) was dancing wildly. Duncan had that audience in the palm of his hand, and his joy and exuberance spilled out to everyone there. He takes English Traditional music to a whole new level. And at Sidmouth Folk Week, the first one we had, for me, they outshone the main act in every way. Absolutely superb!

The Duncan McFarlane Band

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:55 PM

GUEST,No Fixed Abode - you haven't put how long these YouTube "top videos" have been up on YouTube. You can't compare 100 viewings in 2 days with 100,000 viewings in 2 years - for example.

I don't doubt that the figures represent popular taste, but the length of time these videos have been posted makes a diference.

Popularity is an indicator of popularity. One of the most popular videos on YouTube is an ape drinking it's own pee - popular, but not exactly tasteful.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

There's a whole thread on the horrors of Rogues' gallery.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

Just thought I would do this just for fun.................

Here is a list I have put together.....the number by the names is their top video views from You Tube....... Interesting that all the folk names listed added together only comes to a third of the "common" folk artists Enya Clannad and Celtic Woman........... what does this mean......am I in a tiny tiny little click sniggering in the corner at the common people or am I championing the common persons music and if I am why are they not listening to US!

ralph mctell                   217,518
cara dillon                       216,760
fairport convention               198,649
kate rusby                       177,796
Richard Thompson                175,447
Dougie Maclean                  149,026
Seth Lakeman                       136,660
show of hands                       129,824
Eric Bogle                        106,996
lunasa                                47,808
dick gaughan                        45,476
flook                                35,322
bellowhead                            35,163
vin garbutt                        24,675
eliza carthy                        18,887
Oysterband                        18,187
Martin Carthy                         16,138
john tams and barry coope        12,245
steve tilston                        6,661
Jez Lowe                         5,040
last nights fun                        4,401
cloudstreet                        3,673
tanglefoot                        3,616
ruth notman                        2,966
nancy kerr and james fagin          2,794
ColvinQuarmby                        2,429
Kerfuffle                        2,041
Jim Moray                         1,827
Megson                                 1,451
Wheeler Street                        1,440
Mawkin Causley                           926
David Ferrard                           391
George Papavgeris                      262
Maggie Holland                           141
        
              total          1,802,233
        
        
celtic woman                        2,253,076
enya                             4,386,496
clannad                              213,920

              total          6,853,492

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

I had a look at the McKennit vids.
The gurdy "player" appeared to be grinding coffee manually and the cellist was far too over-keen on vibrato.
I direct you to:
(a) Jon Loomes
(b) Anahata.
Neither of them go in for New Age Mist (in the German sense), and the women singers they accompany don't look or sound like Barbie dolls.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

Lizzie.
I just give up.
You don't want to listen to "O Magnum Mysterium". Fine.
Your loss.
Loreena McKennit. Been there done that.
Nice performance. Doesn't move me. Horses for courses.
So, I take it you won't be popping into the Rad in Feb then, because it's full of OLD PEOPLE!!....Remember one day you will be old too!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

"Lizzie C
In amongst all these Po faced Grey haired old men who frequent the Radway that you have dismissed with such inpunity, I presume you are including your good friend Barry Lister? And half of the Old Swan Band? Mr wood and Mr Cutting have been known to drop in occasionally.
Wouldn't be surprised if Eliza hasn't been in too."


First of all, Barry's not 'po faced'. Secondly, he doesn't have 'grey' hair, but sparkly white, and thirdly, I'm well aware that Barry goes into The Radway, as I was right beside him when he got his tuba out. (giggling somewhat naughtily smiley)

It still doesn't rule out the fact that it's a 'watching' occupation, being an (older) English folkie, rather than a 'letting yourself go' one.

If you recall, Ralph, we had this discussion on the BBC one time, about how the English don't seem able to let themselves go in the same way as the Irish or Scots. Even in Folk Britannia it was there, the Scots throwing themselves around to their music, petticoats and kilts flung high in the air (oo-er Missus!) However, meanwhile, back at the ranch, the English were filmed sat down listening to Pete Seeger, who was on stage singing his heart out, smiling from ear to ear, and looking across a sea of serious faces who looked more as if they were at a science convention, rather than watching one of the most popular folk singers of the time. Not a smile or a tapping foot to be seen anywhere.

and...Barry has an earring. He's a cool dude! ;0)

You can have 'grey' hair if you like, but 'silver' is soooo much more funky...Why be 'grey' when you can be silver? And white is even more cool! I bet the Irish and the Scots have far more silver hair than the English, because they don't worry about smiling and letting themselves go, having the occasional Whoop! now and then and daring to tap their feet..

And nope, I don't need any spiritual enlightenment, thanks. I have more than enough.

Enya, Will.

Fair enough. I've always appreciated that everyone loves different sorts of music. It gets to me though when talented and popular artists are ridiculed by those who assume they know all about what is good music and what is not. And sadly, there seem to be a lot of those 'experts' in the Eng. Trad. world.


And now, I'm off, once again, to listen to Loreena McKennitt, and you may want to check out her Hurdy Gurdy player...and her cellist.

Loreena - The Mummer's Dance - Youtube

Loreena - Caravanserai

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ernest
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

here`s the dreadful 100th post now...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jos
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM

Ooops - I mean I could PM it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jos
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM

Ralphie, if you can't find LtS I have an address for you in my address book from many years ago - if you haven't moved since I bought a Penny Hop/The Hop tape from you I could email her the address.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

Well I looked for you Liz, but when you type Liz the Squeak into the search field, all that comes up is a fan group for Squeak the Hamster ... that isn't you by any chance is it?? However, as far as I am aware there's only one Ralphie Jordan on there (although plenty of Ralph Jordans without friends!!!)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

Yes Ralphie, look for Liz the Squeak and there I am... I should be the only LTS there, there are dozens of you!

LTS