Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Lizzie Befuddled Cornish
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:55 AM

And....where were The Demon Barbers?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:44 AM

I just wonder how many people who aren't folkies, bothered to watch it anyway. It was a program for Folkies and we were all aware of the program.

It was an OK program, but I would rather have seen it in the flesh. Nothing like being there.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:43 AM

The bit I saw last night had dolly birds laying around the floor looking on dewy eyed whilst some bloke sang O Come Emmanuel in an R&B style X-Factor American accent. Plus ça change?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:41 AM

But seriously, yes, I do remember those programmes from the 60s. And I understand the BBC bureaucracy very well from my days there in the late 60s and early 70s.

I also remember a fairly recent BBC4 presentation of June Tabor from St. Luke's, with the likes of Martin Simpson in the band. The stunning simplicity and wonderful atmosphere of June singing Richard Thompson's "Strange Affair", with just the guitar of Martin as backing is a piece of folk on TV that was everything it should have been. Just an example of not making a programme over-complex and concentrating on the music.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:41 AM

Ralph, I know I couldn't have done better - but I'm not a professional TV producer with a team of, as you say, some of the best technicians in the business.

Leaving aside whether I liked the concept or some of the the performers, which are matters of individual taste, it seemed to me that the sound was poor - many of the instruments (including at times John Spiers' melodeon and especially concertina) weren't very audible. I'm sure a band like Bellowhead must be a sound engineer's nightmare, and the way the show was presented probably made it more difficult, but the Beeb does have, in your words, some of the top sound balancers in the business, and a lot of the time this didn't seem very balanced.

It seemed to me that the music came a long way behind the presentation. Perhaps that's inevitable with TV, but it does put on good concerts in all genres so it's not impossible. The show may have appealed to a more general audience, but are they likely to find it on BBC 3? I felt this did a disservice to the type of audience who were most likely to tune into this programme, and to the musicians themselves.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:37 AM

Oh Will.
I've got hours on Video if you want it!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM

dolly birds sitting on hay bales in a mocked up barn.....

Ooohhhh... you wouldn't tease an old man would you, Ralphie?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:27 AM

I will just make my point again.
I'm old enough to remember those dreadful 60's TV shows with The Spinners (Gawd Bless 'em) complete with Aran Sweaters and dolly birds sitting on hay bales in a mocked up barn.....
Yes, of course there were parts of last nights show that I didn't like much. (And no, I won't get personal). But I ask the question.
Could any of you have achieved a better show?
Yes? No?
If Yes. Go on then. Do it. Get the funding, Get BBC4 interested enough to back your idea. In essence... do the work!

With no real knowledge about the production criteria, I'm assuming that the concept of a slightly warped version of "The Good Old Days" came from Bellowhead. Jolly good I say.
Why not? What is there to criticise?
Good luck and Merry Christmas to them.
My only criticism would refer to too much camera time devoted to the bloke with the suspect leggings.
No doubt, you will all disagree with me. But, Hell...I don't care. I know how difficult it is to even get a show like this through the buraucracy that is BBC Commissions.

Well done to all involved. And lets stop carping, and congratulate BBC4 for doing it at all, and ask for more, please.

(End of Rant)

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:02 AM

I was looking forward to this programme very much and set the DVD so that I could both watch it as it was being broadcast and then go back over it later. I've seen Bellowhead and many of the other artists live and have, on the whole, enjoyed their performances very much - particularly Bellowhead.

However, I am surely allowed to say, with all reasonableness that, though I'm very glad the programme was shown on BBC4, I didn't care for all of it. I think it was actually over-produced and made more complex than it need have been, and I didn't care for the "Good Olde Days" style of presentation. (And, yes, I've made a fair bit of money over the last 40+ years, from making music, GUEST,Tim).

I've been to two local Sussex sessions recently where I've been lucky enough to mix with some wonderful musicians and singers - and that's at least the standard by which I judge the performers on TV. In some instances, TV doesn't always produce better goods - and this show was, as I said before, a mixed lot.

As said above by another Catter, I don't lose my critical taste because it's on the telly. It's not a question of being a stick-in-the-mud or a mouldy fig or anything else - it's just having a personal taste and standard. Let there be more of this on BBC4 - and let it be even better.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:11 AM

Well why did the early transatlantic sessions feel so real and not over produced?

True the camera cannot catch what one catches in personal attendance. I have videoed simple things like school concerts and nuances are lost and atmosphere so different on tape from the actual experience.

So yeah it has to be a real bear to do.

Maybe I missed the jollier songs as I did come in late but to me some of it was X factorish. Just because some decent musicians decided to co-opt trad songs into popped up versions doesn't mean it is for everyone.

The bit about folk so few of you seem to grasp is that it's for everybody. And it's for everybody to do with what they will. It's clearly galling that the BBC4 show happened without your permission. But you put yourself in this ghetto. You only have yourselves to blame that it's not to your liking.,

Blame myself for my own taste? Why? Am I not permitted to have an opinion, just because they managed to get onto telly? Dear god no wonder there is much dross on TV. No one is allowed to criticise it.

That explains the long run of Big Brother House and Celebrity Get a Life shows.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:08 AM

Well, funnily enough, Dave...I was just about to suggest that it's way overdue that Show of Hands did a Christmas Album...Seth and The Oysterband, too.

But you beat me to it! Yay! That's the way, lad!

Perhaps I read your mind Lizzie?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:08 AM

Unfortunately, due to some tragic news within the family, the programme was only on in the background last night so I couldn't gain a complete impression; hopefully I'll catch a repeat. However as I watched it did occur to me that Jon Boden, Sam Lee and Sam Sweeney will all be appearing, on separate occasions, at Traditions at the Tiger, Long Eaton next year.
Not bad for a club "steeped in the tradition".

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Mike of Hessle
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:54 AM

Saw the programme last night and on the whole was disappointed. The unthanks rendition of 'In the Bleak Mid-Winter' really had me squirming. Have seen and heard a lot better at various Folk Club Christmas Parties.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:37 AM

TESCO (bugger)!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:36 AM

"You big whingey bunch of wankers. How many of you make a living from music?
Amateur critics to a man I would guess."

The 'Amateur Critics' about whom the poster of the above speaks so nicely are, in fact, the very people who pay for the tickets and the CDs, the proceeds of which are the source of much of the professional musician's income. On that basis, the Amateur Critics are the very people the professional musician needs to please. Otherwise the professional musician won't be professional for very long, he'll be spending his time stacking shelves in Tescco, or practising on his front-room sofa and living off his Giros.

Best not to forget that. IMHO of course.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:13 AM

Right then.....A Challenge...
I will give you (theoretically of course!)
1. A Venue of your own choosing.
2. Several TV Scanners (Complete with camera crews, Video editors..etc..about 100 people)
3. BBC Sound 1 (Huge SSL Mixing desk, with some of the top sound balancers in the business!)
4. Prime Time BBC1 on Christmas day..(Just after Her Madges speech, perhaps?)
5. Your choice of artists.
6. Your concept.
And you think you could do better??

I watched it, I enjoyed it. And, I'll watch it again.
Do any of you really understand how difficult it is to organise such a gig? Have any of you ever attempted such an event?....No??
Well, until you do, just shut up.

My congratulations to all involved.

What would you rather have? A repeat of the bloody X Factor???

Of course it wasn't perfect. I'm sure that most of you would rather have the White Heather Club on New Years Eve too.

Reading this thread has made me both sad and angry at the same time.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:50 AM

Here's some Christmas music that everyone can enjoy:

http://www.jinglebrass.co.uk/

And it's all for free!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:42 AM

You can't lay all the blame with the artists - its the producer and director that should be shot and all the rest of the people whose names appeared in the credits.

Think Nutty may have something there. This show didn't feel like a real folk concert/session.   At least not like the ones I attend in Kent, UK, which are (for want of a better term) organic... natural.

I have seen Bellowhead on youtube and what I have seen was unrelentingly fun. Concerts of theirs I would seek to attend at festivals.

I have also heard the UnThanks do better. I think possibly the wrong people were making decisions and it may have put some of the performers in not best performing state.

Also let's not forget that everyone has unique taste. I am clutching now to my hard earned old fogeyness.

I loved the Sloe Gin set too.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 10:30 PM

He he, nice one Tim.
How can anyone on here not ever heard or even heard of the artists?!! Perhaps as you say, they are trapped in their own traditional folk capsule. I listen to folk music trad and everything in between. I listen to folk music from anywhere in the world on mostly UK online radio progs but as many festivals and concerts that I can get to. Ever since the Beatles were issuing singles, I learned that you don't judge on first hearings. It was new and different and took a while to get used to and we know what happened with them!
I'm at risk here as I havn't heard the prog yet but will when I get back to UK next week. But yes, this generation of kids has injected excitement and innovation and vitality. The Unthanks, Lakemans, etc are steeped in the tradition they've developed their own style of presentation and have made it to the telly. They have class and they worked bloody hard to get there.
They should be cheered, applauded and loudly. I do and I will as soon as I can get there.
Al


but

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Effsee
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 10:14 PM

Tim..."a whole new generation went out and made vital, thrilling folk music "...

If you think that was vital & thrilling, you've led a very sheltered life!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 09:02 PM

You really are a bunch of ridiculous buffoons.

But I guess you've figured that out by now.

You are aware that people come to this forum just to laugh at you, right?

I mean, they don't want to. Like myself, they all come here thinking how brilliant it is to have an international forum dedicate to the sharing of folk knowledge. But the reality is all too evident.

The bit about folk so few of you seem to grasp is that it's for everybody. And it's for everybody to do with what they will. It's clearly galling that the BBC4 show happened without your permission. But you put yourself in this ghetto. You only have yourselves to blame that it's not to your liking. Since, while you were all still arguing about whether something could be called an autoharp technique or not (or whatever trivial detail you're concerning yourself with today), a whole new generation went out and made vital, thrilling folk music that ended up on TV. They grasped the baton while you twats were still arguing about the best way to hold it. And now you're all trying to sound ever so above it all, like the only kid shivering in the changing rooms while everyone else is splashing about in the pool.

You should come on in sometime, the water's lovely.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

Good comment - exactly how I feel.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:35 PM

It's also fair to say that the programme received an enthusiastic preview in The Times. It was certainly a lot different to most of the "seasonal" programmes on the box, and will have pleasantly surprised a lot of people who have a stereotyped idea of folk music. The reason for my disappointment is that I know it could have been so much better.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

I felt disappointed and cheated, because BBC4 folk and music programmes are usually so good.

Anyway, have a good Yule, whoever and wherever you are.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Arrrrgh
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:21 PM

Happy CHRISTmas folkfanny

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:20 PM

I was fully expecting to love it and was a bit disappointed as I said above but I'm really pleased your non folkie friend enjoyed it and its great that she was converted to attending the gig at New year - I really hope other people have as positive a reaction as Bellowhead & everyone else on the programme are amongst the most innovative and exciting artists around.

Oh and Lizzie I wrote a long reply re George but it has disappeared and I'm too tired to write it again - basically it was 'Yes love that song - my favourite is Anytown' but with lots other bits in about urban design & place making and why the latter song is an ever present reminder of what can happen when people like me get things wrong! Though I should add that I wasn't responsible for the 60's & 70's townscape!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:15 PM

I imagine that if you were there in the theatre it was a great show, despite the slightly disappointing choice of material. However the TV completely failed to convey the atmosphere, and spoiled the music with bad sound which left half the instruments and most of the lyrics inaudible.

However I'm afraid I still fail to understand the appeal of the Unthanks.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Weasel
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:14 PM

Errmm...folk fan - I for one make a living from music. And, Folknacious, not knowing anyone on the programme, I went in with a completely open mind.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Folknacious
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM

I was right then (see post No.4). And that was before I saw it, simply based on experience here.

God you're all so predictable. I'm sure many of you watched it determined to hate it.

It was fine, really. Not great, but nicely entertaining and occasionally moving. Probably done without much rehearsal by the look of it and hardly with X-Factor production values.

I watched it with a non-folkie friend who I've had difficulty persuading to give New Year over to the Bellowhead South Bank thing. After watching the show she's definitely on for it and even looking forward. Result.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,folkfan
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:56 PM

You big whingey bunch of wankers. How many of you make a living from music?
Amateur critics to a man I would guess.
I thought the show was fine. Not stunning but certainly not as bad as you lot are pretending.
You all make me laugh.
Happy fucking holiday

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:44 PM

Have you heard his song about Christmas, Joe?   About his mother-in-law and how she used to make Christmas so special for everyone? So moving!

I disagree. George should be up there on the main stages at folk festivals, not hidden round the back in social clubs etc...and he'd be wonderful on TV...we *so* need gentle and touching performers like George on our TV screens again...

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:34 PM

Much as I deeply love George, Lizzie, and saw him do a wonderful couple of sets at the Topic in Bradford last week, I think his intimate and conversational style is much better suited to clubs and festival stages rather than TV.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM

Well, funnily enough, Dave...I was just about to suggest that it's way overdue that Show of Hands did a Christmas Album...Seth and The Oysterband, too.

But you beat me to it! Yay! That's the way, lad!

I'd have had the Duncan McFarlane Band on there too...and George Papavgeris. A real showcase for folk..

BBC Radio Devon has been playing a lovely Kate Rusby Christmas song this week...

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

And...A Merry Albion Christmas...of course...

Their Myspace page...

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Or Show of Hands? Seth Lakeman?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM

Ooh, did someone mention St. Agnes Fountain?

Their Myspace page... :0)

And of course....there's the lovely Magpie Lane

Their Myspace page....

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:58 PM

Thought it was dreadful. Enough to put people of folk for life. why couldn't they have shown Albion Christmas or ST Agnes fountain instaed ?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:51 PM

Did Ian Anderson produce it? ;0)

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM

I'm just watching (and listening) on the hard disc, in the hope that it's not as bad as everybody says, but unfortunately I've got agree with most of the previous comments. So far this year I'm coming to the conclusion that carols are much more fun to sing than to listen to (a bit like male voice choirs), though The Holly so far doesn't sound too bad, just half-hearted.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: SussexCarole
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

So very disappointing! Dirge like renditions of songs we hear time & time again at Christmas over supermarket tannoys and at school nativity plays. Where were all the up beat unusual Midwinter songs/carols that we hear sung around the folk clubs?

What a shame that an hour of TV time devoted to folk just had me reaching for the off button.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

I have to agree with most posters that this was disappointing overall - especially as I was watching it as some compensation for not going to the Topic FC tonight because of the weather! The Unthanks version of In the Bleak Mid Winter was turgid - one of my favourite carols, it is slow, yes, but it does need some life. Glad they sang 'Tar barrel in dale' as this was some compensation. Enjoyed Lisa Knapp's Coventry Carol and Jim's Emmanuel (my very favourite carol). I was expecting more Bellowhead - the Sloe Gin set was great and enjoyed the Misteltoe Bough. Overall though it felt very contrived and as somene else mentioned it will win no converts and I imagine many people less comited than us folkies will have turned over fairly soon - possibly immediately after the introduction. The sound seemed muddy too. I should stress that I am a huge fan of Bellowhead, Jim Moray and the Unthans but just feel that this seemed to be more influenced by TV producers than musicians.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:30 PM

but an electric guitar and a drum kit?!

What's wrong with electric guitars & drumkits? Some of the greatest English Music of all time involves electric guitars & drumkits - not much of it in the name of folk, alas - although there is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MdI_ACf7Nw

Check it out!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: nutty
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:30 PM

I watched it all - just to see if it got any better - unfortunately it didn't.
The whole production was dire.

All that clapping and most of it out of time with the music was most annoying, as were the camera shots,whizzing around the room at a rate of knots - it was enough to make you dizzy.
And why , in this age of technology, were they all attempting to swallow their microphones - surely radio mics would have been more suitable for a TV broadcast.

You can't lay all the blame with the artists - its the producer and director that should be shot and all the rest of the people whose names appeared in the credits.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:25 PM

"The Coventry Carol was dire"

It was the only part of the program I liked myself! Though she did do an embarrassingly pants attempt an an 'early music voice' (Ohhh leetal tihney chylde'), which should have been dropped in favour of err her own actual voice.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:17 PM

See? They should have invited Show of Hands and Seth along... :0)

I wasn't able to watch it, but I'll try to catch it on repeat....but going on the posts above....oh dear me..

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM

I enjoyed some of it, but an electric guitar and a drum kit?!...and, for a final knees-up, James Lord Pierpont's "Jingle Bells" - why (as I've suggested here) not let Americans be Americans?

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: double stopping
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM

I had set it to record so I could watch it again later and enjoy - won't be bothering, just about to delete the recording. If that was the best that could be served up as a Christmas Folk special then we certainly won't be winning any converts. My other half walked in, pulled a face, asked what it was, gave me the "you are watching this" look complete with raised eyebrows then promptly went off to bed!

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM

Hmm. Very curate's egg.

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:04 PM

A very mixed bag, IMHO. Having got the hour on DVD, I switched over to catch the end of the Freddie Starr show - which I saw when it first came out. The dear folk souls on BBC4 should have seen Freddie singing an Elvis medley backed by a cracking house band plus The Jordanaires - that would have been an education for them. Starr, whatever else he may be, being probably the best interpreter of Presley in this country and any other.

The final "Jingle Bells" bit of the BBC4 show was like the very worst of the Billy Cotton band Show...

Subject: RE: Heads up - BBC4 tonight Christmas Folk
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM

Hi Les. I'll not be watching that on iPlayer. The audience were irritating too.

Bah humbug!