BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:31 AM

I'm not a racist, I just agree with racist opinions.

I'm not a homophobe, I just think that homosexuality shoud be repressed.

I hate the BNP, its just a coincidence that our views are the same.

Besides, my reasons for having those views are 'clever', whereas the BNP are morons.



Does anyone recognize this line of thought?

perhaps those of you who basically say the same thing?



Time for some people to try and climb out of the box.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

"The good voices have not been quiet."

Their leaders have, Carol...and it is the leaders who will be heard the loudest..

And I have posted many links to wonderful things said by Israeli Jews and groups made up of Muslims AND Jews who are all working for peace in Israel, so I'm sorry, but I take umbridge at your remarks there because you ignored those posts, as you have a very different view of Israel to me.

ANY religion that abuses women or deals out violence to those who don't believe...or don't do as they are told, is despicable. This thread though is about the Islamic protest, which, thankfully, has now been cancelled....and those within Islam4UK are now in trouble..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:21 AM

I aspire to be regarded by Liz as obsessively unpleasant. And I think I have discovered a fast track to it, Haven't I? Liz?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

All richly deserved, actually, after many deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults from you.

Since you believe there are "many", list three like I have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

Ah, Hinduism - to which file to the Tamils belong I wonder. Saw a Tamil mob gathering at a music festival in Croydon last summer, reminded me a bit of the mods & rockers fiasco in the 1960s!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

There is much within Islam that is wrong...and until they get that right, they will always face opposition from around the world. It is wrong to beat women, it is wrong to rape them, to 'own' them, to keep them locked away, to dictate what they wear, to stone and behead, remove hands..etc..etc....and that has no part in today's world.

Where, Lizzie, is your voice against Hinduism, which has an equally misogynistic component among many of its practitioners?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM

The good voices have been too quiet for too long, but now, it would seem...and especially with the Canadian Imams now issuing a Fatwa against Terrorists, that they are beginning to realise that their religion is being so deeply harmed by these Extremists.

This kind of comment, though, is a part of the way Muslims have been getting smeared for years. The good voices have not been quiet. Muslims have been speaking out against extremist Muslims for a long time. The problem is that in its ongoing efforts to put Muslims in a bad light, the media has been unwilling to report on these efforts when they take place. I have for years been posting links here in the Mudcat to examples of Muslims doing just what you say they have not been doing. And whenever I've done that, the people who share your attitude - that Muslims have been silent about Muslim extremists - people whose first impulse is always to think the worst about Muslims, have completely ignored me... because people want to believe what they want to believe about Muslims, regardless of the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:10 AM

"How about when you dismissed the entire male populations of certain Muslim countries for apparently being happy to throw acid in the faces of women who do not conform?"

No, I said THE TALIBAN throw acid in the young girls faces...and the War Lords do equally appalling things...as was shown in the video I put up.

WHEN will you stop twisting my words for your own obsessive reasons?

I also stated that there is a dark misogyny that runs through Islam...and any man who did such terrible things to women doesnt' deserve to live. I stand by that.

"How about when you asked what "we" can do "to turn Islam BACK to peace?"

Yup....because it has become so poisoned by the Evil Bastards who have used the name of Islam to kill, rape and murder...But no worries, the Imams themselves are waking up to what they have to do, and I hope that wonderful letter above will soon be flying around the world to as many minds and hearts as possible.

There is much within Islam that is wrong...and until they get that right, they will always face opposition from around the world. It is wrong to beat women, it is wrong to rape them, to 'own' them, to keep them locked away, to dictate what they wear, to stone and behead, remove hands..etc..etc....and that has no part in today's world.

But hey, don't let that stop you from spinning and twisting, eh?

Yeesh!

And YOU are in charge of FAF????

Double bloody Yeesh!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM

"Those who might fleetingly think I am unpleasant as she says, may care to note that I have been told to "stick a turnip up my arse"; "Stick my head up my arse" and "Fuck Off Why Don't You"."


All richly deserved, actually, after many deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults from you.

In fact, under the circumstances, I'm incredibly restrained...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:39 AM

You are so obsessively unpleasant to me, that you are beneath an asterisk.

Just so that anyone else who reads this believes I am "obsessively unpleasant" to Lizzie.

I am obsessive that she writes the truth. I would have thought that was necessary in a community like this.

Those who might fleetingly think I am unpleasant as she says, may care to note that I have been told to "stick a turnip up my arse"; "Stick my head up my arse" and "Fuck Off Why Don't You".

This for simply pointing out that Lizzie is factually wrong. Something she never admits to.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:30 AM

"as result of possible unconscious overreaction to some of Lizzie's occasionally irritating and incontinent overstatements.

Michael"


Personally, I've always regarded those who make statements such as that about others, as being full of shit.....and I move on from them...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:30 AM

"And who and where was that done?"

How about when you dismissed the entire male populations of certain Muslim countries for apparently being happy to throw acid in the faces of women who do not conform? How about when you asked what "we" can do "to turn Islam BACK to peace?"


"I have been saying all along that if you don't love this country, then bloody well leave it."

What you actually said:

"If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there."

Would you be kind enough to define the religious beliefs of the UK? Which way(s) of life are we specifically talking about? Which laws? The laws that guarantee free speech and which are founded on the history of dissent? As there are clearly many different ways of life, many laws and many religions, which of us are you inviting to "bugger off over there"?

And as you clearly don't approve of the rights to express dissent which are enshrined in law and are a cornerstone of British democracy, maybe it's you that ought to be looking at relocating...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

"then it appears that Liz is in fact all chaff and no wheat."

Once again, do NOT call me Liz. There is only ONE person in Mudcat who is allowed to call me that. You are not they.

"It was claimed that "Muslims" - as a whole - were not speaking out against it. They are."

No, they are not.

But now their leaders are starting to speak out and talk total common sense, hopefully, that will start to happen more and more until their voices become so loud that they will be heard above every bomb still yet planned to be exploded.

What Imam Syed Soharwardy has stated, in calling for the fatwa against terrorists, is hugely important for every Islamic leader to act upon...

"...The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too.

"Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence..."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:27 AM

Royston - what I just said to Ruth — except, absolutely NO wheat whatever among the chaff?; not even a itsy-bitsy·teeny-weeny·ickle-schmickle: Oh, go on...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:22 AM

Ruth: I think there is little, if any, disagreement between us. I simply thought it expedient to draw attention to a possible perceived complacency creeping in, in certain quarters and certain comments, as result of possible unconscious overreaction to some of Lizzie's occasionally irritating and incontinent overstatements.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM

You are so obsessively unpleasant to me, that you are beneath an asterisk.


You know what I'd love to see? I'd love to see Good Islam out on the streets, en masse, around the world, holding up banners and shouting..."NOT in OURS or ALLAH'S name!!"

The message has not been getting out because their voices have not been raised loud enough. Let us hope that now, that will start to shout as never before.

Yusuf Islam has been trying his hardest to get the religious leaders to realise that THEY *have* to change from within, to start condemning those who are ruining the name of Islam....

At last it seems that some are finally listening to him....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:12 AM

Don't f*cking call me Liz! OK? Got it? You sanctimonious, patronizing, holier than thou prat.

Lizzie, why don't I get an asterisk when you tell me to fuck off?

I feel quite hurt.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:09 AM

MtheGM,

Everyhing that Ruth said.

Nobody here ever denied the existence of terrorism.

It was claimed that "Muslims" - as a whole - were not speaking out against it. They are.

It was claimed that they don't do enough - for Lizzie - to get themselves heard. It is proven that they are doing a hell of a lot. Always have been. It is also proven that mainstream media works very hard to filter out those voices - even working hard to misrepresent those voices - whilst inventing and/or highlighting, with relish, the voices of the "minority extreme".

So, given that we all agree that there are terrorists out there and that there needs to be a proper perspective on that - so we can work together as a community to identify the guilty and protect the innocent - then it appears that Liz is in fact all chaff and no wheat.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM

Yes, but remember the survey of student views I posted about on Dec 31.
thread.cfm?threadid=126102#2799932

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM

"OK Liz.

I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?"

Don't f*cking call me Liz! OK? Got it? You sanctimonious, patronizing, holier than thou prat.


"The terrorists and extremists need to be condemned."

And that is precisely what I and others have been doing. But now, NOW it is OK to do that because YOU have said so?


"They need to be marginalised, especially by their own communities."

EXACTLY what I've been saying!


"But to lump the entire Muslim population of Britain in with the extremists and fundamentalists does enormous harm."

And who and where was that done? I have been saying all along that if you don't love this country, then bloody well leave it. That is addressed to all of those who condem Great Britain and all she stands for, whatever their skin colour, creed or religion.

READ what the Imams have finally come out and said! It is an unprecedented idea and one that should have been started on the eve of 9/11...BUT, it is has now started to roll and watch it gather pace around the world.

The ONE thing that these bastards haven't counted on is their own faith, the good people from within their own faith, turning against them en masse....and that is what needs to be done, as fast as possible.

Does Islam need its own Civil War? Yes, I think it does, because the evil bastards who have discredited it, hidden within it, claimed it as their own need to be removed, the evil cut out from within..and the only people who can do that is those who really believe in the message of Allah. I hope it can be done peacefully, but somehow, I doubt the bastards will allow that to happen, because I feel they would have no conscience in attacking their fellow Muslims who dared to stand up to them.

I also hope, very much, that the Imams also call for the end of misogyny within all Islamic states and that equality, compassion and education is given to women as soon as it can possibly be arranged. And of course, an end to the barbaric punishments that some within Islam dared to bring into being, so very long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM

MtheGM, I don't think anyone really discounts the real and present threat from terrorism. But the wider issues around the demonisation of the entire Muslim world have implications for the future of the UK and racial harmony.

The terrorists and extremists need to be condemned. They need to be marginalised, especially by their own communities. But to lump the entire Muslim population of Britain in with the extremists and fundamentalists does enormous harm. It is divisive and unhelpful. And, rather worryingly (as I have said earlier in the thread) people who are suspicious of/feel threatened by the presence of "the other" in their midst are using isolated acts of extremism to justify their bigotry. This needs to be addressed if the multicultural society we live in is ever going to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM

===OK Liz. I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?
God, you're a nasty piece of work Lizzie. ===

Actually, Royston, I do not entirely agree. I have differed with Lizzie sometimes; & I think she has a tendency to overstate certain cases in a somewhat uncontrolled and hysterical fashion. But I think she is sometimes right, and it is vain & mistaken to assume that, becoz of her tendency to incontinent intemperateness in expression, everything she sez can be discounted.

In this present instance, e.g., all right-thinking people agree that the malevolent element in Islamism who commit acts of terror are but a small — nay, one might even say, minute — minority, frequently condemned by their better-intentioned co-religionists: as in the recent, welcome, Canadian fatwa; but that does not mean that this minority is not a threat, or that they can be ignored or discounted: or that those, like Lizzie, who vehenently draw attention to this ongoing and unbridled threat had not best be heeded, & should not written off as merely hysterical so that any warnings they issue may be ignored, which it appears to me there is a danger of happening on this thread. 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, the murder of one of Rushdie's publishers & the recent renewed attempt on the life of the Danish cartoonist, DID ALL HAPPEN - however much the majority of Muslims, along with the rest of us, deplore that fact: & we would be unwise to imagine that, becoz some Canadian Muslim clerics deplore these acts, & becoz Lizzie is sometimes silly & hysterical [a variant of 'shooting the messenger' IMO], the perepetrators represent no threat & so can safely be discounted. Let us, please not get complacent in an extreme overreaction to Lizzie's often incontinent modes of expression. There is, I should say, a modicum of wheat to be found amongst her chaff.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:02 AM

Muslims, through the agency of their community associations have been campaigning against fundamentalism constantly. The trouble, Liz, is that the media don't want to report it - except in extremis, like now - and people like you just don't want to hear it - until it becomes an issue with which you choose to attack Muslims

Examples

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm

Try:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb%3AIE-SearchBox&q=mu

for 161,000 examples.

God, you're a nasty piece of work Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

OK Liz.

I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?

However, on the point you raise about the innocent turning in the guilty, it happens all the time - Like the family of the underpants bomber Umar Farouk Abdul Muttalab. They reported their concerns to the authorities who took, errm, absolutely no notice of them at all.

The autistic/aspergers chap that tried to blow up a cafe in Exeter a couple of years ago...concerns reported by his local mosque, not taken seriously again.

There are plenty of press reports with testimony from the UK security services that a vast amount of their actionable intelligence includes or originates from reports by concerned Muslims.

Liz you know absolutely nothing, and *everything* you say turns out be either a lie or just plain wrong.

Is there no amount of evidence, no number of dismal failures that would ever persuade you to shut up, go away somewhere that you can't bother decent folk, and take some classes in rational thought?

Don't start back-pedalling now "I was the first to present an example...Muslims speaking out for themselves..." when your whole point has been to portray those good folk as the excpetion to Lizzie's rule that all 2bn Muslims are to blame for what's happening.

Face your shame Lizzie, try to learn something from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM

And in case anyone can't open that link of mine above, to this short article, here is what the Canadian Imams have said:

Twenty imams have issued a "fatwa" against any Muslim who would attempt to commit an act of terrorism in Canada or the United States.

Syed Soharwardy, an imam at the Al-Madinah Calgary Islamic Centre, who organized the initiative, said yesterday that any attack by foreign elements should also be considered a direct affront to the 10 million Muslims who call either Canada or the United States home.

"We want Muslims around the world who would dare to commit terrorism on our soil to know that we stand together with all Canadians and Americans.

"We are asking Muslims here not only to condemn terrorism but to also see these events as attacks on themselves."

Imam Soharwardy said he thought of the initiative just after a Nigerian man was charged with trying to blow up a U.S. airliner on Christmas Day. At that point he began calling religious leaders here and in the United States to join his effort.

Nineteen Canadian imams and one American have signed the fatwa to date.

" The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too.

"Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence."

Since the threats against Salman Rushdie several years ago, most people think of fatwas as death threats. But in fact, the imam notes, the vast majority of fatwas are condemnations or even non-binding directives that are meant to teach fellow Muslims the proper religious response to a given situation.

He said many Muslims he has spoken to say their lives have grown miserable and have suffered societal backlash because of the perceived association between violence and Islam.

But since 9/11, he added, it has become imperative for Muslims to vocally condemn violence -- even though they have no personal responsibility for those acts.

Muslims who live in this country should also stop fighting the battles that they left behind when they came to live here, he added.

"We are Canadian now. This is where our energy should be directed."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM

"News just in. The controversial Islamic group which planned to march through a town where processions are held for dead British soldiers will be banned.

Islam4UK said it would stage an anti-war march through Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire with members carrying empty coffins.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group as early as Monday.

It said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act."


Thanks be....to Allah and to every other God in Heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:32 AM

I think you'll find I was the first to present an example in a link to Muslims themselves speaking out, actually, Ruth....sorry if that offends and yet again foils your plot to prove that I am a racist.

The good voices have been too quiet for too long, but now, it would seem...and especially with the Canadian Imams now issuing a Fatwa against Terrorists, that they are beginning to realise that their religion is being so deeply harmed by these Extremists.

The whole world needs to join in with annhilating this evil, be it suicide bombers on planes, or bastards randomly shooting Togo's football players. This terror needs to be routed from the world, but it cannot be done if people are told they cannot even mention the fact in the first place.

It is this silence, this fear of being branded 'racist' that has let the evil become stronger and stronger within societies. If something is wrong, then it shouted out about.

Royston...that is one example of things going wrong and being abused. They should have been taken to court over it. However, sadly, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the world is now being held to ransom by religious fanatics who are destroying the world, as we know it, by terror, in the name of Islam.

Let's take this down to a slightly smaller level.

If these evil bastards were members of my family, I'd not only turn them in myself, but I'd be doing everything in my power to ensure that the whole world knew and understood that their values, beliefs and actions, were *nothing* to do with me whatsoever and that I was the one most determined to have them handed over to the police.

As I said earlier...the Canadian Imams are saying exactly what I have been saying...and I realise that must upset those who seek to prove that I am anything other than what I am.

Tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:18 AM

Thanks O G,

Or, as Muslims everywhere will be saying, Mash'Allah. It means thanks be to God.

But people, please take note of the media and bigotry issues, which this affair has exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:12 AM

News just in. The controversial Islamic group which planned to march through a town where processions are held for dead British soldiers will be banned.

Islam4UK said it would stage an anti-war march through Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire with members carrying empty coffins.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group as early as Monday.

It said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act.

So no need to keep fighting here folks !

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:08 AM

Lizzie, I keep explaining to you,

Royston, a number of people have been explaining things to Lizzie for a number of years. Welcome to the club.

This post has it about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM

There is always a final bit. She flounces off promising never to return to Mudcat again.

About a month later she comes back.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:40 AM

But Lizzie, what you SAID was "How do we turn Islam BACK to peace?"

That doesn't imply an understanding that we are dealing with a few extremists who are giving the whole of the Muslim world a bad name. That implies a belief that all, or a majority, of Muslims is on a path which is not about peaceful co-existence, but about war-mongering and intolerance.

Early on in this thread you despaired that moderate Muslims do not speak out against the extremists. Since then you've been presented with example after example of the fact that they DO, but it clearly isn't an interesting enough news story to be reported in a way that gives balance and proportion to the whole issue. So maybe you'd like to retract your question above, and acknowledge that we do not need to "turn Islam BACK to peace," but instead have to find a way to accommodate all sorts of beliefs within this multi-cultural society. That includes many in the "host nation" developing a bit more tolerance, and not using isolated acts of extremism to justify their bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM

And that piece of excellent reasoning and writing, Royston, should be the Final Word on this thread, but I'd bet a pound to a pinch of snuff it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

Lizzie, I keep explaining to you, and people like you, how you are brainwashed - or as you yourself claim, how you are too stoooopid - but you all refuse to see it and/or refuse to act.

In early December there was a media hype about an Islamic preacher visiting Westminster University - Imam Abu Usamah

A group, for which I volunteer (Imaan) were going to campaign against this person being allowed to speak at the University, because of reports that he was a homophobic cleric who had advocated the death penalty for homosexuals.

However, we investigated first and discovered Imam Abu Usamah was featured in a Channel 4 documentary called "Undercover Mosque" which attributed comments to Imam Abu Usamah that pointed to the fact that he was a terrible homophobe.

There were investigations by the West Midlands Police into various allegations against several Muslims featured in the documentary. There was no evidence found to press any charges.

In fact Imam Abu Usamah strongly denied the claims made about him, and the Crown Prosecution Service's (CPS) lawyer who looked into the TV documentary that raised this issue in the first place said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying".
   
The CPS lawyer went further and criticised Channel 4 for "totally distorting" what Abu Usamah and others had said.

This then lead to the West Midlands Police formally complaining to the TV regulator, Ofcom, and the CPS was asked to consider a prosecution of Channel 4 under the Public Order Act 1986 for showing material likely to stir up racial hatred.

The Police were advised that there was insufficient evidence, while Ofcom said it also found no evidence that the programme "Undercover Mosque" had misled its audience.

CPS lawyer Bethan David, who scrutinised 56 hours of media footage, only some of which was used in the broadcast, said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying." The CPS lawyer also said that "To try and demonise the efforts of these people by taking their comments out of context was shocking."

Abu Usamah has said that he had been featured in the documentary as saying that homosexuals should be thrown from a mountain when in fact he was explaining that it was an opinion featured in some books, but it was not one he shared. This story can be viewed at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6936681.stm

Of course, its no small coincidence that the press stories against Westminster Uni occured in the same week that minarets were banned in Switzerland, and when a group of Muslim students who were leaving a prayer room were viciously attacked at London's City University with metal batons, bricks and fireworks. Several of those students were hospitalised.

So you see Lizzie, everyone - you included - needs to be a little less hysterical about this and needs to apply some independent thought.

The media lies to you. For god's sake, Channel 4 takes liberal, "cuddly" muslims and edits them into monsters to the extent that the channel was almost charged with a criminal offence.

What hope do "Real Muslims" have in the face of these onslaughts from the media and from people like you as their wilful accomplices.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:15 AM

Huge difference in stating that Islamic terrorists are not true to Islam and that the protest in Wooton Bassett is Islamic though, Lizzie. Whereas the former deplores acts of terrorism the latter lumps all Moslems in the same boat. Can you not see that?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM

And still it goes on? Point about protest in Wooton Bassett lost, move on to Islam in general. Point about Islam lost, move onto Womens rights. Point about Womens rights lost. Move on to victimisation of posters. Point about victimisation of posters lost, move onto questioning Mudcat policy...

Can I suggest the next move please? What about all this bloody snow? It was never like this before the Poles arived. If they come into this country they should live with OUR weather, not bring in their own!

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:51 AM

999, thank you for that..and to 3refs for his thread on the Imams of Canada issuing a fatwa against terrorists.

That is EXACTLY what is needed, right around the world, and now, hopefully, the REAL Muslims will stand together to take back their religion and make Islam what it should be, a peaceful religion and way of life.

'Ruth'....give it up, please. I ain't no racist, but I'm sick of bully boys coming over here to harm us, divide us, attack us, bringing their religious and tribal hatreds to our streets and towns.

Read what the Imams have said in that thread....and you will find that they have the same views as I do.....

So tell me, are THEY racist too??????????????????

Canadian Imams speak out against terrorists - The Article

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:37 AM

Well. old git, that was exactly the same guidance issued 60's to 90's in respect of IRA and UDF Terrorism. Reasonable people were at pains to remove the word "Irish" from "Terrorism" so that innocent Irish are not assocated with the acts of a minority of murderous, politically motivated criminals.

Innocent Muslims deserve exactly the same respect and courtesy, don't they? If you believe that they don't, what does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 09:09 PM

"too stoooopid to have the power to incense people....tooooo stoopid to make them think..."

Yes, Lizzie, we all know how clever you think you are. The BNP incense people. The Daily Mail incenses people. The moronic trolls who linger on the periphery at Mudcat incense people. Pissing people off is not the same thing as making them think. It doesn't take brains or power - sometimes, as in this case, it just takes a lot of inflammatory language and an obstinate insistence on posting unsubstantiated and defamatory rubbish.



From Lizzie: "And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol....because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land.

You have to treat *everyone* equally, otherwise you create far more problems than you could ever dream of."


So what you're saying is that the danger of the BNP is that, when you hold bigoted beliefs, it turns out that your politics are actually quite close to theirs. Yes, that is quite dangerous.

The "host nation" has surrendered what, exactly? Despite your protestations above where you say you've not mentioned immigrants, does this post not imply that you believe Britain HAS surrendered these things, whatever they are, to people from outside the "host nation" - ie immigrants?

When I asked you for examples of what you have surrendered, and how you have become a second-class citizen in "your" own land, or for ways that people from outside the "host nation" have been given more privileges than you (thereby making you "less equal" on some level), you couldn't provide any evidence. Quelle surprise.

In fact, as many people have pointed out, Choudary (who was born in London, so he is presently in his "host nation") is merely exercising the very same rights and privileges that any British person would be able to exercise. By wishing to deny him (or anyone else who holds views of which you do not approve) this right, you are undermining fundamental British freedoms. Even if you disapprove of Choudary's ideology and approach (and I do), he is taking part in the great tradition of dissent, which is a cornerstone of British democracy. Instead of more ill-informed ranting in here, I suggest you go and read some Thomas Paine.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 08:33 PM

'Nineteen Canadian imams and one American have signed the fatwa to date.

" The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too.

"Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence."'



From a link posted by 3refs on another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM

I haven't mentioned any 'rights' that 'immigrants' get, actually. In fact, I haven't even mentioned the word 'immigrants' at all. But don't let that stop you spinning.....

I HAVE said that I'm sick of people knocking my country, and I stick by that. I also stick by feeling that if you don't like this country, then bugger off and leave it...and I don't give a damn what colour your skin is, or if you have religion or not. This country's people are kind, welcoming, generous and tolerant, even if we are run by prats, and I am sick fed up of being made to feel that if you dare state that fact, or complain about people who do nothing but say how much they dislike the British/English, then you're a racist.

Nope, what I said Royston, was that we are hearing the wrong Voice of Islam..and that Voice, at the moment, is putting this world into chaos....Time for other voices to step forward, bigtime and make it plain that no way is the rest of the Islamic World going to tolerate these murderers and extremists who are using the name of Allah to hide behind. There are many, many ways in which the Muslim Leaders can get their voices heard. Thank goodness they are now starting to jump and down with the rest of us about these Extremists.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your image of me, but tough...and I don't live in Cornwall, but I can assure you that if I did, I'd find racism abounds, because many of the Cornish don't even start to accept anyone as belonging there until they've lived there for around 5 generations or more....and the Devon folks aren't that different in some places either, particularly Dartmoor....where you're regarded as a Grockle or an Emmit for many, many years, in some places, no matter how you try to fit in.   

I know. I live here. And I know many people who've moved here and to Cornwall too. It's a tribal thing. :0)

And in answer to you asking who the hell do I think I am? I'm just me, nothing more, nothing less. Too stooopid to rile people....too stoooopid to get people following me around the internet....too stoooopid to have the power to incense people....tooooo stoopid to make them think....so I'd not worry your little head about me too much... ;0)

I'm just fed up with the Evil in this world at present and think it's way past time for the Good Men and True to return, BIGTIME, because we have all walked away and buried our heads...and in doing so, we have let Evil in...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:36 PM

Lizzie, exactly who or what do you think you are?

A nut and his willing accomplices in the media get you wound up.

You then lump 1.999999999bn others into your bitter little stew of prurient outrage and then, what, all those folks have to come and beg for your forgiveness? For something they haven't done?

From the links that many have posted here, it appears that all mainstream British Muslim organisations have managed to get their condemnation of Choudary into the public sphere. Still not enough for the twisted sister from Cornwall? What would be enough for you?

It makes a change for mainstream peaceful Muslim voices to get into the press - see Ruth A's links earlier this evening.

Guess what Liz, unless you happen to be a cuddly rock star preaching bearded peace - or on the other side, a mad bearded hellfire preacher - the media isn't exactly interested in you.

There aren't many column inches in "Muslim wakes up, goes to work, worries about the mortgage, goes home to his/her partner and kids and goes to sleep without blowing him/herself up" which is pretty much the default way of being.

You need to address your anger and bitterness issues before you start demanding behaviours from innocent others.

I didn't call you racist. I called you a bigot.

•bigoted - Being a bigot; biased; strongly prejudiced; forming opinions without just cause

Which is a pretty accurate opinion of and about you, based on what you yourself have said and done here.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:25 PM

"how the hell you have the gall to even raise your head in this thread"

The fact that you can continually compare yourself to the most victimised and marginalised people in society is merely evidence of how very little you understand what it is to be really discriminated against; it's also evident of your complete self-obsession, inability to keep anything in proportion, and total lack of self-awareness. You are aggressive and you post inflammatory, unsubstantiated and divisive rubbish. That's why I have the "gall" to post in this thread. Free speech, remember? Not just for you.

"I expect you missed it, in your furore to prove that I am the racist you *know* I am to be."

Well, you are the one who keeps banging on with things like "If they don't like the way we do things, they should get out of our country", "We are becoming second class citizens in our own country", talking about all the rights that immigrants get that are not afforded to the indigenous population, and asking questions like "How do we turn Islam BACK to peace?"


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM

Yusuf's Journey to Islam - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:52 PM

I 'got caught'?   Come on, Joe...for heaven's sake....WHY are you giving in to them like this? Others post reviews, articles, whatever, and nowt happens.

I post as 'Gust Lizzie Cornish' now and then cos my 'cookies' have gone AWOL at present, darn things...


OK, Royston, as to you bigotted words. I tell you what, why don't you read my posts, and you'll find I'm far from racist, but totally hacked off with Extremists. However, until The Voice of the Two Billion starts to drown out The Voice of the Handful, this world will continue to be in deep shite.

At present, this world is being literally held to ransom by a minority of mad folks, who are hellbent on violence, murder and destruction, and they don't give a shit who they kill or maim, in fact...they REJOICE in the carnage.



'Ruth'...if you read my earlier post, you'll see that I had already posted a link to an article where the Muslim leaders have spoken out AGAINST this march.

I expect you missed it, in your furore to prove that I am the racist you *know* I am to be. May I, as ever, refer you back to your own words about me...and ask how the hell you have the gall to even raise your head in this thread, when your own actions and words against me have been along exactly the same lines as any racist.

And Dave....I have my own language, always have had...therefore I ain't bothered about joined up words or a'po'st'ropheeez. The message contained within the letters is what counts, I always feel, no matter the grammar.

The Voice of Two Billion should be making a noise SO loud that all else is drowned out. I don't hear it in the way I should...

It is way past time that the Two Billion reclaimed Islam, as Yusuf Islam has been trying to get them to do, for a very long time now. If there is anyone who can unite Islam in the right way, it is Yusuf..and he is being listened to now, and respected, by many of the major religious leaders of Islam.

I can only pray that they take his words and his message to heart, because, as I said way back in this thread somewhere, he is the only Islam for whom I have respect at the moment, because he preaches peace....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

OK, everybody, settle down. Things are getting a bit nasty here.

And yes, the one-screen limit on non-music copy-pastes applies to everybody - but Guests are subject to full review and more likely to get caught.

Lizzie posted as a guest, and got caught. Eventually, Dick Miles got caught, too. If you feel the urge to post somebody else's words, keep it less than one screen - or post an excerpt or summary, plus a link.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM

...or even a despicable bigot

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:29 PM

@Lizzie HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace?

You people never fail to amaze me.

A handful of loons amongst 2 billion Muslims and some freak from Cornwall judges all of them to be the same?

Ruth A, just give it up as a lost cause.

Lizzie, if we are to judge you by your own words, tell us: In what way are you not a desicable bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

FKOFUCF YWH TN'OD OYU......

FKOFUCF is usually spelt as two words. And in the TN'OD the apostrophe is usually placed between the "T" and the "N".

Can't you get ANYTHING correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Carol
I think some times thats where things go wrong on Mudcat. We probably all have the same viewpoint, but are unable to express our viewpoints in a way that causes a group freindship where we really support the same issues.
Shame really.
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM

"HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace?"

The whole point is that it's a misrepresentation to suggest that Islam has turned away from peace in the first place. This constant conflation of the acts of a handful of extremists with the views of mainstream Muslims is ignorant, misleading and very damaging. You might just as well have said, 10 or 15 years ago, "How do you turn the Irish back to peace?" - when it was, in fact, a tiny handful of extremists who were responsible for the terrorist attacks.

This attitude and divisive language is what leads to further marginalisation and separation, not unity and not racial harmony.

Muslims condemn march

Young Muslims condemn march in anti-extremism rally

Muslim leaders condemn proposed march