Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 12:59 PM

I repeat. I am not arguing with you, Jim. It is pointless. I disagree with you and you with me on this subject. We knew this year's ago. Using the same tired old arguments is just flogging the proverbial dead horse.

To make my position clear though I am happy to restate it

The clubs I attend are fine. Current crisis aside of course
I only have the word of other people on here that theirs are fine too
There are alternatives to Folk clubs both live and online
Folk music itself will survive as it always has and that is the most important thing for me.

Nothing to argue about. No right or wrong. Just my point of view.

Seemples.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 12:54 PM

i think the Gnome has tbeen too busy playing with his fishing rod at the bottom of the garden, definitely not been paying attention, but if folk clubs do not matter as much asfolk music logically you are saying that venues that have people listening to the words do not matter as much as the music, so you areiun effect saying that as long as the music is being played, it does not matter where.
so logically you are saying it does not matter where the music is played.   
if it does not matter where the music is being played, as long as it is being played, then it means that it can belayed in unsuitableplaces such as open mics, or working mens clubs
Dave have you tried singing the buffalo skinners or thomas the rhymer in a working mens club,or at open mics if the venue is not suitable a proportion of the fomusic material is not sung.
even your hero anthony john clarke, whois avery competent performer would not hack it in a working mens club, and probably not want to sing at an open mic

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM

"folk clubs do not matter as much as folk music. As I said to Jim, I am not going to argue as"
That's a profound statment and a cop-out all in one posting
You may quote me on that - I'll certainly quote you having said it
Its a rversal from saying there is nothing wrong with the club scene, I suppose
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 11:17 AM

so you dont think it matters if folk music is treated as wall paper music

No, Dick. I said nothing like that. I said, as you quoted, that folk clubs do not matter as much as folk music. As I said to Jim, I am not going to argue as there is no point. But I am going to correct misrepresentation of what I said when I see it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 11:09 AM

ok al, if we played in working mens clubs. i would probably have to sing delilah and tie the yellow ribbon.
i could have taken that direction, and with a half decent voice had material success but i did not fancy it,i could have made more money, so i am proud to be effete, i am proud to sing songs i like, i am proud to show respect for my material. back in 1968 this music was alternative, it still is an alternative to the consumer passive middle of the road pap. I AM PROUD TO SING TRADTIONAL MATERIAL, GOD BLESS THE EFFETE.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 10:21 AM

some interesting thoughts Sandman.

A lot of artisrs I knew found it difficult to work their magic outside of folk clubs, which generally have polite attentive audiences.They are or can be very nice indulgent audiences.

(Which is why , if you go and see a folk artist you often get lumbered with twenty minute support act supplied by the organisers kids - a sqeaky clean pubescent in training for Britain's Got Talent.)

On the whole though I'm not sure the bathing in milk and honey has really been to the advantage of folk music. Certainly none of the great folksongs have such effete origins.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:57 AM

vic smith. The man in the wilderness
Asked me,
How many strawberries
Grew in the sea?

I answered him
As I thought good,
As many as red herrings
Grew in the wood.
Will folk clubs survive? I don't think that matters as much as will folk music survive.quote d the g.
so you dont think it matters if folk music is treated as wall paper music[ re open mics] so it doesnt matter how it is treated? you appear from the posts you make to wish to drag us into the 21st century amd make people put up with the music being disrespectfully. well
The OED's earliest cite for "bugger off" is from Joyce's "Ulysses" in 1922.perhaps you would oblige

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:55 AM

Dave wrote:-
BTW Dick, I would be very interested to hear Martin Carthy sing "Rock around the cock" :-)

More pot calling the kettle black at 14 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM where we read particpated. Nobody objected to this because it was obvious what he meant.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:37 AM

Dick wrote:-
jack, if you are from scotland or england it is spelled/spelt socialisation not socialization, or are you an american trojan horse

Come on, Dick, you are nit-picking! We all know what Jack meant whether he used an 's' or a 'z'..... unless you have an obsession with accuracy, in which case you need to make an orthographical check of the second line of the post that my quotation was taken from.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

BTW Dick, I would be very interested to hear Martin Carthy sing "Rock around the cock" :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM

if you are from scotland or england it is spelled/spelt socialisation not socialization, or are you an american trojan horse

If we're sinking to that level - I learned to spell in New Zealand, where schools taught the spellings used by the OED. Which prefers "-ize", and for that word it gives as its first citation a quote from William Morris in the 1880s - he spelt it the New Zealand way.

The OED's earliest cite for "bugger off" is from Joyce's "Ulysses" in 1922.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:30 AM

Quite, Jim. As I said, I am not arguing with you.

Dick - what a simplistic post

Exactly. That was the idea. Folk music has survived and there are alternatives to pubs and folk clubs. I agree that it does not mean they are better or worse. Just different. It comes back to the opening question - Will folk clubs survive? I don't think that matters as much as will folk music survive. Seeing as it has already survived for millennia. I don't see why not.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:19 AM

"I never have what, Jim?"
For crying out loud Dave
You never have offered an argument
Over and out
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:17 AM

on many occasions over the last few years, when i have done gigs in folk clubs in the uk, i have had people come up to me and say how refreshing to hear an evening of traditional songs, they then say we dont hear them very much these days

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM

Pubs and folk clubs have vastly reduced in number.
People have found alternatives to pubs and folk clubs.
Folk music has survived.

Which, if any, of those statements is untrue? quote dave the gnome
      what a simplistic post , people have found alternatives that does not mean those alternatives are any better in fact open mics are worse , because they encourage wallpaper music, where no one or very very few is/are listening.
folk music has survived ,that does not mean it is flourishing or close to the mainstream as it is in ireland
if i go toa jazz club i expect jazz notopera, if i go to the opera i expect opera not cliff richard. i know what folk music is and when i go to folk clubs or folk concerts i do not want to hear martin carthy singing an opera by verdi or singing rock around the cock

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:54 AM

i am in agrreement with jim generally , i would say that i include blues as folk music american folk music. however this sort of trolling coming from someone who appears to be perenially insulting.,takes the biscuit. our old codger jack campin, an insulting old bollocks if ever i met one, ....quote jack campin(Particularly when some grumpy old fool started ranting at you about how it's never been the same since Ewan MacColl's time - not all physical socialization is fun)
jack, if you are from scotland or england it is spelled/spelt socialisation not socialization, or are you an american trojan horse

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:52 AM

I never have what, Jim?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM

You never have dave
I'm not out to change anybody's mind - I never haev eb, they'll do that for themselves
I'm here to discuss and compare ideas so I we can add to each others perspectives
I've more than answered your points - you have chosen to respond to nothing, which saddens me

"Could it be Jim that your definitions of folk music needs re-adjusting rather than the state of reality."
Not really Al - unlss someone comes on a view that can be agreed by all
I certainly have not intention of the "I don't know what folk song ois any more" school of thinking
Sixtry years of songing collecting and reading makes it far too late for that
If you have an alternative definition I'd be happy to consider it - nobody else has offered one, but there's a first time for everything
Britten once said "You should try everything once except incest and Morris Dancing" - I've always thought that a good idea
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:23 AM

Please respond to me arguments

I've said before, Jim. I am not arguing with you. There is no point as our views are different and neither of us are likely to change. Nor am I demanding anything. I just made three simple points. If you wish to dispute them, feel free. If you don't, that's fine too.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 06:36 AM

Could it be Jim that your definitions of folk music needs re-adjusting rather than the state of reality.

I say this with all respect to your life's work and achievements.

I've had no dealings with Cecil Sharp House and frankly they'v never displayed any interest in my activities, despite one or two tentative approaches.

Doubtless the folks in Cecil Sharp house have difficulties of their own - difficult choices, inadequate resources , etc.

The one thing that's nice is that nowadays we all have access to the great filing system in the sky called cyberspace. The ages can decide on the value, or worthlessness of our works.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 05:10 AM

I've been sampling some online stuff mainly from the site Peggy Seeger instigated
With the best will in the world it hardly begins to come anywhere near replacing the clubs -
At presnt it has a 'wartime' feel, which is understandable - knees-up in the air-raid shelters
It lacks two essetnial ingredients, quality and product control
If I'd been faced with songs I didn't want to listen to, as I was occasionally at the clubs, I'd go down to the bar with my mates and talk - and still take the memory of a pleasant evening home with me
If we discussed the music we'd come to listen to, we'd probably go home knowing bit more - all aprt of the learning curve
I find the idea of 'siting and tapping my fingers' totally abhorrent - I's rather work i the garden and I detest that
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:50 AM

An obvious advantage of social media over a folk club is that while duff performances do exist, you can leave them with a tap of your finger. Anyone who's ever been to folk club will remember moments when you wished you could minimize the pub into an icon in a corner of the sky and open a different one. (Particularly when some grumpy old fool started ranting at you about how it's never been the same since Ewan MacColl's time - not all physical socialization is fun).

People who have got used to exercising their own discernment minute by minute about what they're listening to won't welcome being asked to sit down and just accept whatever they're offered for a whole evening. Folk clubs started at a time when the alternative was a night in with the BBC Home Service. YouTube offers rather tougher competition.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:26 AM

"So, which, if any of the statements are untrue?"
Yo're dong it aagainfd Dave
You are ignoring everything I have said and demanding answers
You are even ignoring tha fact that I have just responded to one of our points about premises
The music id dying - it isn't surviving - how ban it be when people don't know what folk is any more
The "lrenative's" you are claiming aren't for folk song - I have been detecting an open hostility towards that for some time now - even on this forum - "outt of date, finger in ear, purist boring, not what people want..." are a few of the new-age folk phrases common now
Please respond to me arguments and stop pretending I haven't made them
nd stop

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

Observer, you have my utter sympathy. I don't know where you live but I have only rarely experienced what you describe. Whatever it is you are experiencing there are many places where 'The Voice of the People' can be heard and participated in. I cannot believe that Yorkshire, such a vast area, is some sort of mecca. What I can believe is that the metropolis might cause problems of the sort that Obs describes. I imagine lots of places where you can get the 'anything goes' scenario and a few dedicated folk clubs packed with the same old faces, but I could be totally wrong.

Jim, there has been no hostile takeover, though I concede that it could appear that way to some people. What has happened is that, as existing acoustic formats, people wanting to perform their own brand of music in a friendly amateur environment have been attracted to it. But this has also been a medium for introducing new people to our music. As long as our music still dominates, and in my experience it does, I don't see a problem.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:01 AM

So, which, if any of the statements are untrue?

200

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:56 AM

Please don't reduce this further by partonising me Dave - I will only construe it as being defensive
Venues have always been the problem, as has our ability to overcome it
You have ignored the real problem, as has everybody else - that a cloud of distortion and misinformation has been deliberately wrapped around the term "folk" in order to make it a cultural catch-all for anything people cant think of another name for but would like to perform publicly - that has become a hostile take-over and has edged real folk song off the satge many of us worked bloody hard to create
Dedicated people walked away from the scene because it stopped providing what they were looking for
The same would have happened if football grounds had begun to put on ice hockey or The Royal Opera House had begun to specialise in Big Ballads
We had our choice of what we listened to surgically removed gradually

It strikes me that if you spent as much time actually discussing the subject as you did defending the indefensible (somewhat insultingly) we'de get much furhter with these discussions and would have remained friends - I miss that feeling from you as much as I miss not being able to go out for a friendly pint
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:41 AM

I will just repeat in simpler terms for those who seemed to read a number of things into my earlier post that were not there.

Pubs and folk clubs have vastly reduced in number.
People have found alternatives to pubs and folk clubs.
Folk music has survived.

Which, if any, of those statements is untrue?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:29 AM

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:31 AM

Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well. It's about time some people did. Folk clubs were invariably in pubs in the UK. Any idea how many pubs were open 60 years ago and now many there are now? People have found other ways to socialise and folk music has found other ways to flourish.
if you think internet communication is socialising, ha ha,that is a very good joke,
if you think that open mics [where no one is listening to other performers is the appropriate form of socialising for this music] youare a smaller brained gnome than i have thought, open mics and people not bothering to listen to others are disrespectful ,the music becomes wallpaper music. i take on board some of steves other points and hope that which he says is not just confined to yorkshire

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM

"Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well."
Yup dave - bring on global warming, an increasing poverty gap and another minute on the doomsday clock
Our folk songs started to disappear when people started to say "I don't know what "folk" means any more and when or clubs reduced from the sever thousand they one numbered to only low hundreds they have become
What exactly do YOU mean by "folk song" Dave ?
As far as I can see from your arguments, it's no longer 'The Voice of the People' that gave the term its definition
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

Observer seems to sum up pretty much what I believe to be the truth and the problem
Our folk music was, among many other things, an enjoyable exercise in social intercourse, a way of coming together, not just to listen and to perform a music we had found (or had been given by those who found it for us) but to share it, pass it on and give it a future
We did that by talking about it, arguing its finer points and taking in what each other had to say, and (with a few notable exceptions) to remain respectful of each other while we did so
THat seems to have one with the clubs - I have never encountered such waves of bitter contempt from people I though I shared a love with as I ahve here
I have witnessed ageism, suggestions that, as I no longer live in Britain what I have to say about a music I have devoted my life to is no longer valid, dishonest accusations of being a racist by someone who refuses to qualify what I am being accused of....
Not so long ago I was accused of personally insulting people because I criticise the action (or the inaction) of EFDSS and saying what I thought about singers performances.... a list of ten so called personal insults someone who I once respacted put up
Like any art form, folk song should thrive on critical analysis - unfortunately Alex Campbell's "Good enough for folk song" seems to have won the day

Mve from folk clun to the impersonality and irregularity of festivals, concerts and what the media hashed up was bad enough - but I-pods COME ON
Over the last few weeks I and many millions of others have been screaming up the wall because we have been deprived of human contact - now there is a gleeful rush to sentence our music to a life (if that's what you dare call it) of social isolation
I wonder how many would be as happy to see live theatre, football and all other sports and pleasures we have always enjoyed suddenly shrink in size to fit it onto a small, plastic screen
Maybe there is a mjority for that, I'm rapidly beginning to cease to understand what's happening to our once vital enjoyable world
Jim Carroll




The

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:31 AM

Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well. It's about time some people did. Folk clubs were invariably in pubs in the UK. Any idea how many pubs were open 60 years ago and now many there are now? People have found other ways to socialise and folk music has found other ways to flourish.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:51 AM

Ah folk music via Youtube and social media, hmmmmmm, I somehow doubt it. As Jim Carroll has been trying to put across what "folk music" is it would appear that he is met with arguments and points of view of those who are being deliberately obtuse.

Now it would appear the way forward is predicated upon owning a laptop, Tablet, I-pad, Smart-phone, or whatever. Now that means that I do not have to trawl through the absolute mountain of absolutely horrendous renditions of songs and tunes that you can find on Youtube, etc, because let's face it you are listening to a recording and if you are listening to a recording you might as well listen to the "original" [Example: If you can listen to Paul Brady sing and play "Arthur MacBride" why on earth would you ever want to listen to Joe Bloggs halting and hesitant rendition of the same song].

If I go to a "folk club" I do rather naively expect to hear folk songs, however it has been a long, long time since that was the case and even in "folk sessions" now we get people ridiculing Folk music as "that miserable, boring stuff" and declaring they "If people sing it it is "folk"" and yet another evening, afternoon is lost to 60s and 70s "pop" songs that are basically "busked" because those playing and those joining in can only remember one-an-a-half verses and the chorus. This weakness they try to cover by stringing songs together as a medley. But here modern technology comes to their aid as you see the ranks of tablets, I-pads and phones come out and these "performers" can now deliver a complete song that they cannot be arsed to actually learn by reading through the lyrics, with appropriate stops to scroll down the page of their "absolutely essential, can't play without it device".

Folk Clubs will survive for those who want to listen to "folk music", hopefully those who ruined it will be enticed from the scene by concentrating of churning out their dross in the privacy of their own homes to throw out there to be discovered and forgotten on Youtube, Facebook, etc.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:14 PM

Live music venues of any kind will help artists to gain experience and develop their skills and stage craft in front of actual audiences.

Of course, you might wish to argue that's no longer important. However, those who wish to perform online on a more permanent basis will need to do so in a professional way. People will soon tire of amateurish videos broadcast from musicians' bedrooms.

Conversely, doing a good video in a domestic setting is a skill you don't automatically learn from performing on stage - it takes a different attitude to create an involving performance cold with no audience, get the camera angles right, and script your act to have just the right amount of talk with the right attitude. There are lots of videos by people with folk club stage experience who take too long to get on with it, perpetrate excessive self-deprecation and give you a screenful of boobs and boogers from belly level.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:54 PM

Well said Some Bloke and Steve. My involvement with folk music only occasionally involves going to a folk club

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:50 PM

Granny's Attic, Cohen in particular. The Young Uns. Alice Jones, Sam Martyn. Come on ,folks, let's make up a good list.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:45 PM

That's of there's face masks available to put on when not even medics can all get them.

Subject: RE:
From: JHW
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:17 PM

Will folk clubs survive? How are we going to sing with a facemask on?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM

"I'm excited by the young acts we book at our concert style club, spend time listening on Youtube to wonderful new interpretations of traditional ballads by young people "
Please name some of them. I'd love to be excited by them too.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:56 PM

Folk song venues which are designated as such were there to drw people in to listen to folk songs - old and new
Play them down (as has become the thing here - a change from recent finials that there was anything worng with the club scene0 and you lose your magnetic centre
hat anybody would want to ageist name calling is beyond my comprehension other than to realise that the insulted is lacking in several things, including an answer and good manners and certainly "common sense"
Why foul up a discussion with this garbage fellers ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:26 PM

With respect, Dick, you are only seeing folk clubs and Paying venues. There is a whole grass-roots scene out there and young people are definitely involved. They are largely locally based like ours. Generally speaking our performers perform free for our own events but charge a fee for other organisations and out of area gigs.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:04 PM

Too much common sense there, remember this is Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 01:51 PM

Folk music exists regardless of the arena it is heard in.

Its interesting of course that those used to function rooms in pubs are now seeing Youtube and social media as an outlet as if it's something new.

Welcome to the folk music platform that has been enjoyed for a number of years now by younger performers and listeners. Vastly far more of them judging by "followers" than half a dozen pensioners in a circle claiming to be the town's only "folk music outlet."

The question of whether folk clubs survive is being asked by those who see pubs as their social outlet. Folk music is surviving and evolving nicely where those who will carry it on congregate. On line, festivals and sit down concerts.

I'm misty eyed and nostalgic for the upstairs rooms with candles in wine bottles every bit as much as the next person. But survival of the genre is a different discussion to survival of the platform. I'm excited by the young acts we book at our concert style club, spend time listening on Youtube to wonderful new interpretations of traditional ballads by young people that have never had a bloke with trousers up to Jim's tits telling them they are doing it wrong. It's brilliant and exciting.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 05:09 AM

The basis of the scene was the tradition - not purist, but it was the foundation the scene was built on
When that was abandoned the scene headed for collapse
Our archive encompasses far for that the tradition - workshops be revivalists, workshops on song-making, loads if new songs in traditional style... what a folk archive needs to be
Still can't find a home for it in Britain - Wonder how Walter Pardon with take to his new home in Ireland - he'll certainly be far more appreciated than he has been back home lately
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM

so they may survive how much folk music will be played and how much popmusic or popsongs played with acoustic instrumentsand how much contemporarysongs of angst and personal relationships with a vaguely folk sound is open to conjecture ,i am not optimistic.
my memories of good nights where people particpated in chorus songs and listened to old story ballads, i think commercialism of the music will mean these aspects will diminish, very sad,i fear it will become more them and us, more like popmusic, the stars and the passive consumer. i am glad that i was there in the thick of it when i heard good tradtional singers and the majority of folk people appreciated it

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:55 AM

the aspect of the uk folk revival which remains closest to its roots is dance particularly morris dance imo

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:51 AM

As far as I'm concerned,, the impossibility of bequeathing folk material is as much a sign of the run-down state of the folk scene as are the clubs.quote.
well the folk club scene has always had a broad spectrum ,some of those people are not and never have been interested in tradtional materia, i think that proprtion of clubs or people has increased not interested intrad by about 40 per cent over the last 50 years. my impression based on gigging in folk clubs over the last 46 years is that the clubs or more importantly orgnisers of clubs, is that it is now about 65percent to 35percent, not interested in trad material 35 percent interested, that is on the ENGLISH folk club scene, i think that agents by their nature push the more commercial aspects of folk music, which is by its nature of commercialism, takes us away from the roots of the music which is tradtional folk music
46 years ago my impression of the uk folk club scene was 65percent interested in the roots of the music 35 percent not, so commercialism and folk club and folk festival orgnisers have altered the proprtion.
the mantra ...........      
bum on seats takes us away from the roots of the music and agents and organisers by promoting that aspect are partly responsible.
the uk folk scene particularly the english part is being driven by the forces of commercialism away from its roots

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:16 AM

Steve
I sincerely hope things ahve changed radically at Cecil Sharp House
During my time in \london they were turning away major collections such as that of Leslie Shepherd (Broadsised and books) because there was simply no room - much of what they had was crammed into cupboards, much unexamined, never mind catalogued
We spent years searching for somewhere to leave our large collection and Library and totally failed in the UK - we couldn't give our sound archive away
We tried the Working Man's Library in Salford (who have dedicated part of their space to MacColl), but they neither have the staff or funding
WE didn't try Newcastle in vew of hahat happened to other University-based folk Departments - I can't remember whether it was Sheffield or Leeds whose newly appointed head peremptorily closed down her long running folk department, describing them as "tree-huggers)
We also suggested there might be a club willing to take our digitised sound archive as a resource for its members
One club refused our of hand, another could find no-one prepared to bell the cat
In the end we were lucky to ask Limerick Uni. World Music Centre who has welcomed the Library and collection and has suggested that they might be able to put sore recordings on line and use it to expand their already established Traveller section - there was talk of a 'Carroll/Mackenzie Library - I'm not sure I want that to happen

As far as I'm concerned,, the impossibility of bequeathing folk material is as much a sign of the run-down state of the folk scene as are the clubs
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:11 AM

yes.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 04:45 PM

Hi SPB, likewise I have a room full of books and a loft full of folders, thankfully mostly reasonably catalogued and sorted. I know which bits are scarce and which are unique and the local material will go into our local folk archive and any scarce stuff like my broadside collection and sheet music will go to EFDSS. Very few of the books are particularly rare and the majority will probably go to auction or charity. Whenever I have a cull I sell off anything interesting and the rest goes to charity or mates. What I am getting at is if you have any rare print or manuscript or if you have done any personal research or taken on someone else's archive this needs to be separated off and offered to either an institution or another archive. Far too much important material gets binned. I have possession of material that belonged to Nigel Hudleston, the folk song collector, and some of Malcolm's folk material and writings. What I did with some of Malcolm's books etc is I passed them on to younger researchers which is one good way to preserve them.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 03:30 PM

i enjoy performing, whether it be in folk clubs, community centres,or busking, last friday i sat in avery quiet bantry square and played tunes for 40 minutes just to cheer people up. when i am feeling ok i enjoy sitting at home and playing as well