Folk Music On PBS

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:12 AM

Dammit Jerry, I'm gonna grouse when I feel like it! And by the way, where'd ya get that tie!?

Rick

P.S. Sort of off the topic, but I think it's a tad funny. Our local PBS outlet is WBEN Buffalo New York. About two years ago they started to realize that almost NONE of the American folks in the Buffalo/Erie PA. area were watching: Masterpiece Theatre, or any of their British sitcoms, and precious few were even watching MacNeill/Lehrer News Reports. So they started subtly aiming their fundraising at Toronto where probably the vast majority of their viewers reside. Now it ain't even subtle. They throw in all sorts of bizzare "Canuck happy talk" to make us think that they know Toronto very well. They don't....but we appreciate the effort. I'm afraid that the level of programming has gone wayyyy down though.....far too many repeats. Guess they simply don't have the bucks.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:52 PM

I didn't see the show in quesion, as it sounded hokey from the get go. However, I did see part of the 4 part series on American Roots Music tonight, and it was fantastic (IMHO). I even found out that Georgia Tom, one of the founders of the Hokum Boys later became the Father of Gospel Music as we know it today. What do ya' know.

They also had a very good show on last night about early jazz.

Could it be that there is a certain bias in depiction on PBS. Anything that was mainstream, or "white bread" seems to be glossed over and sort of presented in a non-serious almost "look how quaint they were" fashion. However, anything that comes from the "oppressed" groups, or a background that has an associated "struggle" is presented as genuine, significant, and important.

JAB

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:35 PM

I think that he's a genius, Stilly. I just wish he wouldn't try to do the history of the universe in ten easy installments..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:32 PM

I like Ken Burns. . . ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:16 PM

Whew!!!!! I just read this whole thread for the first time. and it's hard to sort it out. Don, it's great that you had already heard Folkways and traditional music by the time the Kingston Trio and the Highwaymen arrived. You and another 100,000 people. The rest of us who didn't live in a large, urban environment (like me) had heard Rusty Draper (I bet no one remembers him)Frankie Lane, a little Burl Ives and some ridiculously COMMERCIAL recordings by the Weavers (which I loved, and didn't turn my nose up at because they had strings in the background.) The first "traditional" folk singer I heard was Lonnie Donegan, and while I loved his music and still love it, he sure wasn't traditional in style. No one crinkles their nose that he had electric guitar on his albums, but they sure will if you walk into a folk festival today, with one. Like many kids who grew up in a more rural section of the country, folk music WAS the Kingston Trio, The Cumberland Three and the Tarriers. I came to love folk music and have a thirst for more because of them, just as kids ten years later heard Peter, Paul and Mary and the Highwaymen.

For those who seek the glory days of the sixties, listen to the CD re-issues of McDougal and Bleeker Street. Very little of that stuff holds up any better than the Kingston Trio, to my ears. Bud and Travis? C'mon. Even Fred Neil, who I heard many times, and really enjoyed. I don't think he was any more "folk" than the Kingston Trio. Just a much better guitar player and a fine singer.

Not having seen the program, I can't comment on it. I did hear the Kingston Trio ten or twelve years ago, and what bothered me is that they'd had too much to drink and didn't respect their audience... they knew they just had to start singing Tom Dooley, and they would re-awaken the old memory box, and they could play it as sloppy as Hell. I wasn't irritated that they played their old hits. I was disgusted because they seemed to care so little about the music. Maybe that's how most of the people feel on this thread who watched the program. I might have felt the same way.

As for the Doo Wop shows.... Puhleeeeezzzze, don't the unwashed public realize that Doo Wop is a term that someone made up much later, and it's really rhythm and blues? :-) I personally have enjoyed the series (but never bought the CDs, because I have the originals and enjoy them better.) So what, if they've gotten a little long in the tooth? Geez! When I saw Mississippi John he was kinda hunched over.. not at all like he was when he first recorded in the twenties. I was always kinda hoping that folk music was the one form of music where age was honored. I sure as Hell tried to sound sixty when I was twenty. Now you tell me that folks look funny, when they get older?

I suppose I don't have any problem with any of the opinions expressed here. I probably agree with most of them... even the ones that seem diametrically opposed. I don't look to PBS to give an in-depth look at much of anything... even the Ken Burns shows... they give an overview (I stopped watching the Jazz series, even though in many ways it was wonderful, because they tried to cover too much ground and ended up short-changing too many musicians. But for 90% of America, the Kingston Trio and the Highwaymen WERE folk music. Not Tom Paxton(who is a friend, but 95% of America has never heard of.)
For some, like us, the Kingston Trio and others were a door into a wonderful world of music that has enriched our lives. Why knock the door you came through? Maybe others will come through that same door.. or through REM or Counting Crows, or The Dixie Chicks. One thing I know that grousing all the time doesn't attract much of anyone.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,Argenine
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:23 PM

GUEST (" I don't know how old [Judy Collins] is, but I know she is definitely old enough to have lost the upper range--she is a very lucky singer.")

She's at least 60, I'm sure, but beyond being "lucky," she is a throroughly trained singer (and was long before she took to folk music). That makes a big difference in how much of your vocal capability you lose as you age. I've known some opera singers in their nineties that could still sing circles around most of us!

And, yeah, guest, it does seem to me that The Highwaymen and The Brothers Four were kind of "one hit wonders" even in the heyday of the "folk music revival" of the 60s!

And BTW, PBS in my town is airing an Irish folk Christmas show tonight with Maura O'Connell, The Chieftains (I think), U-2, Jean Ritchie (I think), and a few others.

Yeah, Don, you mentioned another show tune that gets passed off as "folk" - They Call The Wind Maria. It's from "Paint Your Wagon."

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:50 PM

You are correct John. I always enjoyed the Overtures to Wagner operas as well as Tchaikovsy's symphonies when I was a music major. "Real musician Purists" scoff at these works as pure drivel. I still like them, as well as the pop folk groups you refer to. When the symphonies come up with their repetoire for the season ticket holders, they better damn well have some Brahms and Beethoven in there for the folks that pay the bills to enjoy. They can throw in some Schonberg to keep the musicians interested, but Beethoven pays the bills.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: johnross
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:42 PM

So it seems ass if we have two separate complaints about the PBS special:

1) The performers were all (or almost all) pop-folk acts rather than "real" folksingers.

and 2) They shouldn't call that stuff "Folk Music".

As much as it may be painful for the hardcore folkies to admit it, that early-sixties pop-folk was extremely popular, and an entirely valid genre for a nostalgia show. While dropping a Doc Watson or Tom Paxton into that crowd would have made as much sense as putting the Julliard Quartet into a Lawrence Welk special. It's just not what that audience wants to hear in that context.

So what do you call it? The people they wanted to reach think of that stuff as the "folk music" of their youth. Those people are ignorant cretins by our standards perhaps, but they're ignorant cretins who send money to public TV.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: BH
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:01 PM

Briefly, all this brings me back to the original thought I presented. Show what you are about PBS---true "folk", Masterpiece Theatre, Lehrer News Hour, Frontline, etc;   Give up on the "crap' for what that you (PBS) think attracts the masses---it doesn't. You (PBS) are a nice broadcaster and should be proud to represent that niche---and give up on second rate presentations to a dying generation of commercial pap loving people.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 08:49 PM

Thank you, Rick, for that post, It is refreshing to have a bit of reality thrown in the pot from time to time. I also agree that watching this particular show was a bit depressing from a quality standpoint.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 07:27 PM

Well I for one have nuthin' against "wealthy folk fans". These, my friends, are the folks who literally allow the musicians we DO like (the non-commercial ones) to keep playin' year after year.

Seventy five percent of my gigs are "House Concerts" and I guarantee you that a nice big house, a decent cover charge, a good room to sleep in and a well connected host, make for a much better evening (for the musician at least) than fighting a bar owner for some ridiculously low fee......and wondering if they could turn the TV down.

This has become a very interesting discussion, but if I can just ratify my point a bit.....my objection (as it was for the "Geriatric British Invasion" show) was simply that most of the musicians (not all) seemed horridly dated (because of material) and were REALLY outta shape, chops wise.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 06:05 PM

Please, someone kill Ken Burns and all those associated with their color-by-number docudrama lite.

PBS producers need to do some serious woodshedding time with the BBC documentary folk.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 04:11 PM

Please, not Ken Burns.   Ken burns sucked the life out of baseball and jazz in his documentaries.   Don't let him touch folk music!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 04:10 PM

Guest, What the hell does only 26% of Americans over 25 having bachelors degrees have to do with these people being elitist? I commend them for getting off their asses, stopping whining and getting the damn degree.   I suppose the next comment will be that it is entirely socioeconomic. In this day and age in the United States, using the "I didn't have the opportunity to get an education" doesn't cut it. I went back to school when I was 28 with 3 kids, a wife and worked 3 jobs parttime, went to dental school, graduated with $90,000 in student loans that by the time I got them paid off, the pay off was about $250,000, and I did it to better myself and family. YEs, it is paid off, and I didn't hide behind some excuses either. A famious quote, "I know men in the ranks that will stay in the ranks. Ehy? simply because they haven't the ability to ge things done." I know this is major thread creep, I again apologise

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 04:08 PM

Perhaps WE need to collectively urge Ken Burns to produce a documentary film on folk music: Past and Present. There's enough material here for at least a hundred episodes and it still wouldn't be complete.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 03:52 PM

Well. Hmm. From the perspective of a geezer:—

My interest in folk music developed with early exposure. This exposure started when I was in my early teens (that would have been in the early Forties) with a couple of radio programs and a movie. One was Burl Ives, talking about the history of the Erie Canal, during which he told stories and sang songs. At the same time, a local character, Ivar Haglund had a radio program, telling stories about the early days in the Puget Sound area—and singing songs, accompanying himself on the guitar (The Old Settler's Song, e.g., "Acres of Clams" was his theme song). In the late Forties, I saw a movie starring Susan Reed, about a young girl from the Appalachians dragged off to sing folk songs in a New York night club. Then along came The Weavers. I became actively interested (learning songs and learning to play the guitar) shortly after I started at the University of Washington in fall of 1949. During my sophomore year, I met some folk music enthusiasts: Claire Hess, Walt Robertson, Sandy Paton, Dick Landberg, Bob Crabtree, and a couple of others.

I was hardly a member of "the elite." My father was a health professional, so we were doing okay, but we were not what anyone could call rich. In the early Fifties, tuition at the U. of W. was $53.00 a quarter for Washington State residents. So going to an eastern, ivy league college had nothing to do with it, at least around here.

For me and many of my contemporaries, the Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, the Limeliters, et al had nothing to do with our avid interest in folk music. By the time they came along, I had heard a lot of Folkways records and field recordings and had dug around in a lot of books. When these "pop-folk" groups came along, we recognized what they did as (to repeat myself) "folk-lite" and tended to regard them as usurpers—kind of phony at best. Compared to what we were used to listening to on records, this bunch was slick and gutless. A lot of the genuine folk songs they sang were subjected to pop arrangements ("filtered and made mild"), and others, such as Green Fields, Scarlet Ribbons, They Call the Wind Mariah, Try to Remember, etc. etc.), good songs though they may have been, were not folk songs at all, even though a lot of people were led to believe they were (I've got a little insight into this; I knew a guy who wrote songs for the New Christy Minstrels).

Granted, many people developed an interest in folk music as a result of the Great Folk Scare. But at the same time, a lot of people got a pretty screwed up idea of what folk music really is. This becomes pretty evident (I should probably go put on my Kevlar underwear before saying this) when you read through a lot of Mudcat threads and compile a list of songs of what a lot of folks here seem to regard as folk songs.

O-o-o-o-oh boy!! I'm in trouble now!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 03:40 PM

Oh, I wouldn't say there is no audience for folk music on PBS. The Irish music specials have done very well. Then there is Mississippi River of Song, Austin City Limits, American Roots Music, Los Romeros: The Royal Family Of The Guitar, Accordion Dreams, Amazing Grace with Bill Moyers, Buena Vista Social Club, Joe Hill, Rock Jocks: The FM Revolution, Welcome to the Club: The Women of Rockabilly, and some of the other aforementioned programs that PBS/PBS affiliates have produced, is indicative of there being no audience for folk music on PBS.

Quite the contrary, I'd say. And jimmyt, you were obviously not only very fortunate to be able to educate yourself with student loans, you have, if you are able to afford donations to public broadcasting, are doing fairly well now too. But that doesn't change the fact that in the 2000 census data, only 26% of Americans over age 25 had earned a bachelors degree. Even today, that is still a pretty elite group, to my way of reckoning.

As to this forum being representative of "the folk" people will likely be shocked to find that the educational background of Internet users breaks down about roughly to this (courtesy of Internet Public Policy Network):

Education:

56% of users are college educated, but 26% of all Americans are college educated (E-Marketer);
40% of users are white collar workers (professional/managerial), but white collar workers make up only 18% of the population (E-Marketer);
28% of users have no college education, compared to 52% of the total population (Mediamark);
19% of people with a high school diploma or less have Internet access, (they make up 52% of the population). Meanwhile, 53% of people with a college degree have Internet access (they make up 23% of the population) (Baruch College Louis Harris and Associates, 1998 cited in the Benton Foundation's Losing Ground Bit by Bit).

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 02:34 PM

Ah, yes, that's the ticket: less tolerance all around. That's what the "real" folkies of the Scare were after.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 02:31 PM

Ebbie, I think you missed the point Rick was making. Yes, this would be an absolute terrific show, but the audience would consist of us, and few others, and the fundraising would be poor. Complain as we might, but even public TV is income driven, and their is something to Boxoffice appeal.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 02:28 PM

" if you pledged at the $250 level, you would receive the 10 cd boxed set of the selections from the show plus scores of rock hits they had the audacity to call folk music. " Duane D, here in Juneau they set the amount at $350. Either way, I doubt they got many takers.

Rick, WOW! Let's lobby!

PBS FOLK MUSIC CONCERT, FEATURING:

Doc Watson
John Herald
Tony Trischka
Hazel Dickens
Cathy and Marcy
Jean Ritchie
Tom Paxton
Bill Staines
Jay Unger

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 02:17 PM

a lot of the last few posts pretty well sum up the situation: THey put this stuff on TV good or bad, and I will agree it was disappointing, for a reason, and that is to appeal to what you folks would probably call the "Vanilla flavored" folk enthusiasts. It is an attempt to target a group of folks that will probably have the resources to make a donation. I am one of those folks, I give to PBS and publec radio every year. I also happen to be a 55 year old white guy who's parents did not have the $ to send me to an east coast school, they were millworkers and I did it with student loans, which by the way I have paid back. I also like lots and lots of other artists that do not fall into the genre of those "commercial " groups that seem to make most of you sick. Someone bought their records, wonder who it was? I just get tired of the generalizations that rich white people have no redeeming social value to your community with the exception of paying high taxes and supporting every program that is available in the arts and social community. I have kept my mouth shut by and large on this site, and tried to listen to others view points, some of which I find valid, others I do not,but I do get tired of the constant references to rich white people being the enemy. Let's try to practice a little " we're all in this together" mentality rather than the stereotyping. SOrry to whine again today, but I just have to get this off my chest.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: pattyClink
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM

Johnross, I see your point, but yes, it actually is 'hurting us'. Most people very rarely hear folk music, it's not on radio stations and it's certainly not on television. So when someone passes this kind of junky production off as This Is/Was Folk Music, it can have a huge effect in having thousands of young people decide they hate folk music, turning off another generation of coulda been folk fans.

What's needed is not more tolerance of this crap, but for somebody qualified to stick a brilliant, well-done concept for a folk special under PBS's nose and dare them to produce it.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:31 PM

johnross said:

"We don't own the exclusive right to the words "Folk Music". And we're not the ones that the PBS nostalgia factory was trying to reach with this particular program."

I agree 100%, as you might have guessed reading the post just above johnross' there. But still, I did feel embarrassed for a lot of those performers, as it felt very exploitative watching "the PBS nostalgia factory" aspect of the program. And let's face it, the fans of that music have a lot more money than most of us posting here, so there is a reason why we aren't reacting positively to the program. If you learned about folk music "in college" in the 50s or 60s, you were from an elite, fairly wealthy community. There just weren't that many "folk" (regardless of how you define the word folk)whose families could afford to send their children for an east coast college education in those days.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: johnross
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:18 PM

My earlier comment ("feh") notwithstanding, it's not the Mudcat audience that was the target for that PBS clambake.

In the same way that the fans of Ornette Coleman and the fans of Kenny G both consider themselves fans of "Jazz" but have little in common, those of us who have been part of the folk revival over the last 40 years (see the last 50 posts in this topic) have a very different idea of "folk music" from those who still love the Kingston Trio/Limelighters/Brothers Four. And neither group shares their taste with the people who moved toward folk-rock in the mid-sixties.

But much as we might dislike the idea, the commercial folk-scare fans have just as much right to see their favorites as we do. And I suspect that there's more opportunity for us to see and hear what we call folk musc--at festivals, on college and public radio, and at folk clubs--than there is for the fans of the New Christy Minstrels.

So let those people enjoy themselves. It's not hurting us--in fact, if they play the occasional song written by a "real" folk singer-songwriter like a Tom Paxton or a Utah Philips, they're subsidizing us.

We don't own the exclusive right to the words "Folk Music". And we're not the ones that the PBS nostalgia factory was trying to reach with this particular program.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:18 PM

Well, I tuned in to Judy singing "Both Sides Now" and she sounded ab fab--truly, I was astounded at how good she sounded. The one and only time I saw her perform was at her infamous (well, to some of us with memories going back that far) Chicago gig, where the Marines in the front row got up and walked out when she started talking about the trial of the Chicago Seven. Her voice is as crystalline as it ever was, and she still has an amazing amount of her upper range. I don't know how old she is, but I know she is definitely old enough to have lost the upper range--she is a very lucky singer.

But my God, that program was awful--painfully so. I wasn't so embarrassed for Collins, McGuinn, and the Smothers Brothers, they all did fine. Apparently they were the only performers who are currently still enjoying professional music careers. As to the cynicism charge, well...what I found so painful was that PBS asked people who clearly shouldn't be performing in such a public way, to appear on this program. I was embarrassed for the others.

Now, as to this claim that this is how the boomer generation was exposed to folk music, I would have to strongly disagree with that statement. I'm not sure what the hell that music ever was, but it wasn't folk music. I got my television exposure to folk music watching very different music acts than the people on this program. From TV Gospel Hour, to Shindig (artists like Sam Cooke, Everly Brothers, Johnny Cash, Aretha Franklin, Byrds, Kingsmen, Lovin Spoonful, a ton of soul & R & B acts like Bo Diddley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, etc.)

I also was introduced to folk music through tv programming for what was once called "music variety shows" which featured country music acts--from jugband to old time to bluegrass to hillbilly to rockabilly, from Roy Rogers and Gene Autrey and the Sons of the Pioneers, to Porter Waggoner Show to The Johnny Cash Show, Smothers Brothers, The Glen Campbell Show, to K-Tel commercials, etc.

But the "Folk Scare" artists of my youth, with the exception of Judy Collins, Roger McGuinn, Peter Paul & Mary, and the Smothers Brothers, weren't the people on the program in question. I don't really know who those dweebs were, as they were never really on my or my siblings radar musically when we were growing up, except that when "Tom Dooley" came on the radio, we'd turn it down or off.

The American "Folk Scare" artists of my youth were more likely to be seen on the rock/pop musical variety shows on tv. They include artists like Odetta, Seeger, Guthries, Ochs, Baez, Judy Henske, Barbara Dane, Fred Neil, the Farinas, Carolyn Hester, Dylan, Buffy St. Marie, New Lost City Ramblers, Koerner Ray & Glover, Tom Rush, etc.

Then, through the "folk rock" scene, I became familiar with British and Irish music--Bothy Band, Planxty, Steeleye Span, Pentangle, Sandy Denny, etc.

So, how I came into folk music as an American teenager is actually pretty damn complex, as the music came from so many sources--tv & radio, but also movies, live performances & concerts, through direct exposure to black gospel music, white church music, "ethnic" music (as we called the music we sang to at home and danced to at weddings and funerals) like polka music, swing, etc. Folk music, as I define it, came to me in my youth from all around me, really. But maybe I see it that way because I've never put up walls around the music I love that I know either was the roots of certain types of music, or a shoot that sprang from the root.

I just know that the majority of acts on that program didn't reflect "folk music" to me at all. Rather, it seemed to be that upper middle class, white college music of the late 50s and early 60s that got a lot of airplay on MOR stations. It ain't what I was listening to late at night in the dark that came out of Little Rock, I can tell you that!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:39 AM

Barney,

Yes "Generic Folk Song" was fluff, but that isn't the only "new" song they've done. I was pointing out that the blame belongs on the producer, not the group.   

Over the years the Limeliters have added songs from Phil Ochs, Harry Chapin, Stan Rogers, Bill Staines as well as originals from Red Grammer when he was with the group. I also would not fault them for singing old songs. Most folk songs are "old". I truly enjoyed their most recent CD.

Yes, the blame is on the producer - not the artists. The image the PRODUCER gave us was slanted. The special was not very well produced. I don't want to judge ANY of the performers based on that broadcast.   Yes, the performers agreed to do the show but it is extremely doubtful that any of them had any sort of editorial control. PBS and the producer would not agree to that. The concept and the pitching was fine, the execution was not. I would love to peak at all the material that did not make the broadcast. I bet we would have a slightly different opinion.

Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Genie
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:32 AM

(Tried to post this last night but gave up 'cause I couldn't get back on to the 'cat.)

Rick, "If only the brothers had mentioned their fight to get Pete and "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy" on the tube.....and even if....."my heart be still"...Roger
McGuinn had sung it on this program. Just imagine, a song that was completely relevant in the sixties AND currently."
Yeah, Rick, just imagine!   I'd have called in a pledge for THAT show!

Duane D, not only did they have the "audacity" to call rock numbers "folk," but they had the Bros. Four doing "Try To Remember" (from "The Fantasticks!") as
a "folk song," too.

Ballyholme, if you mean that old recordings of some of the great dead guys (and gals) would have more 'life' than the music of some still-extant folks, I'm with
you! I mentioned Ochs and Van Ronk because they were the only ones you cited that I was certain were deceased. (By "Hurt," I'm guessing you mean
Mississippi John. And at the moment I'm not connecting the name "Proffit" with anyone but a member of our local school board. [Could be the beer, or
maybe the Alzheimer's. Who knows?])

And, SINSULL, I LOVED the Doo-Wop retrospectives! Most of those folks still sound great (even if they are fat and bald)!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:28 AM

On the other hand....Picture this friends:

PBS FOLK MUSIC CONCERT, FEATURING:

Doc Watson
John Herald
Tony Trischka
Hazel Dickens
Cathy and Marcy
Jean Ritchie
Tom Paxton
Bill Staines
Jay Unger

Damn, what a show! Now wouldn't you stay home to watch THAT?

Now...Pan to a 1000 folks (of a certain age) in the audience.....follow their lips as they sing along to "Nottamun Town", "The Lone Pilgrim...."....Oops, they don't appear to know the words.....Hmmmmmmm, looks like they've never heard of any of these folk performers either.

Net result? 67.35 collected in pledges! Dubya would be thrilled.

Aww what the heck, let 'em have what's left of The Kingston Trio.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Barney the Fifer
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:05 AM

Ron Olesko,

What I said was that these groups didn't APPEAR to have learned a new song in 35-40 years. That's the impression you got from watching the show.

And I guess that Generic folk song that the Limeliters did might have been new. But it was a trite piece of fluff that was more denigration than wit.

I also said that I know that some of the artists, like Judy Collins and Rogere McGuinn, have progressed. You just couldn't tell from the show. And you can't blame it all on the producers. These artists all agreed to the concept and did shill bits on the show and inserts for the pledge breaks.

As to Glen Yarborough, he was either lip-synching or singing along to a pre-recorded orchestra and choir. He was alone on the stage but you could hear the orchestra and choir. It sounded exactly, I mean exactly, like his recording from 35+ years ago.


One thing that bugs me about PBS is that they regularly trot out folk music specials for their fundraising weeks. But its rare to find folk music there the rest of the year.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:52 AM

Hold on, there is a lot of generalization going on here.

First of all, you saw an EDITED broadcast. A producer (apparently one with little knowledge of folk music) decided what "highlights" to present.   The producer's purpose was to put together a show that might catch the interest of a viewer, not necessarily the sages of folk music that dwell here at Mudcat. The second purpose was to raise money for PBS. The producer decided those goals could be accomplished by having Glenn Yarbourgh sing his hit (was he lip syncing? I'm not positive.)   While I think the show gave the wrong impression of the folk revival, I do understand what the producer and PBS was trying to accomplish.   I was not inspired to donate after watching this show.

To say that these groups haven't done a new song in 30+ years is not correct. I have played recent recordings from the Limeliters.   They do have an audience that enjoys their music and yes, they do have to cater to that. You won't see the Limeliters headling Falcon Ridge but they will continue to perform around the country.

Roger McGuinn is writing great songs and giving outstanding performances. If any of you saw him at the Philadelphia Folk Festival you know that he isn't the lounge act that this TV special perceived these artists to be.

Be thankful that TV's still have dials - or buttons.

Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Barney the Fifer
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:39 AM

Jimmyt,

When I said it was a poorly done appeal to rich and aging pre-boomers and early-boomers, I was referring to the fact that it was a fund raising special aimed at a specific demographic group who are now in their fifties and sixties. I used the word rich becuase the special was so devoid of artistic merit that it's usefullness was only in its appeal to specific people with money to throw at PBS in gratitude.

I do not believe that anyone's financial status predetermines their musical taste. In fact, I'd bet that most rich people are not big fans of the Brothers Four.

And Stilly River Sage, I disagree that fans don't let the artists progress. I've seen Peter, Paul and Mary many times and they always include a lot of new songs in their concerts.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:31 AM

Mister and I caught part of it while we were waiting on another show to start. We both agreed that some of what was shown, was not what he & I consider to be "folk" music. However, I have secretly had a crush on Tommy Smothers since I was a little kid, and I loved seeing them. (chirp chirp)

We enjoyed seeing Roger McGuinn, even if he did play old Byrds hits.

I have to say that our PBS affiliate in Nashville has a pretty diverse program slate. There's something for everyone. Nashville Public Television separated from government funding a couple of years ago, and is now entirely funded by the community.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM

Barney, What is the "rich and aging" reference supposed to mean? Are we to infer that "rich people have no musical taste? or that they in fact make donations to PBS? or maybe aging pre-boomers and early boomers make donations? or they also have poor musical taste? Sorry, but again, I get the feeling that there is an implied thought that if you are wealthy, you have substandard musical tastes.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:22 AM

Trouble is that the "fans" won't tolerate new songs from these folks--they're all stuck in a time warp. Remember Rick Nelson's song "Garden Party?" There have been others making similar observations.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Barney the Fifer
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:23 AM

The show was an embarrasment. Watching a bunch of 60+ year olds who didn't appear to have a learned a new song in 35-45 years.

Glenn Yarborough lip-synching "Baby The Rain Must Fall" was the worst. Did he think we wouldn't notice the missing orchestra and choir of backupo singers?

Now I know that Judy Collins and Roger McGuinn have progressed past what they showed on the show, but you sure couldn't tell.

It was a poorly done appeal to rich and aging pre-boomers and early-boomers.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:21 AM

Stuff that airs on TV to the usual audiences is aimed at getting the biggest bang for the buck...er, the biggest buck for the bang, in this case. They go for the most popular, not necessarily the best (in our opinions) music or even the truth. Music isn't bad just because it's popular, but a show aimed at the widest audience is probably not going to include the obscure (to most) gems we love. Taking risks isn't good for finances.

As for our history of being nice to shows that include folk or folk-like music - remember discussions of 'Riverdance'? 'Brother Where Art the Kossoy Sisters on the CD'? Ken Burns' Jazz series? Ow...

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:10 AM

Barry T, You managed to casule what my feelings about this were without getting on the whining soapbox I did (I am sorry, I think I was retaining water yesterday) I think it was a little like a situation a couple weeks ago, I was at Epcot with my grandchildren, and in the France part, there was one of those crepe stands you find on every corner in Paris. Well, I thought about how great they were in Paris, stepped up and ordered a chocolate crepe, and it was nothing like the original ones I have eaten in Paris. A great disappointment. OK I guess I am rambling again. time to get back on my medicine. Sorry if I overreacted in yesterday's post. Jim

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Barry T
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:12 AM

I agree with Don Meixner... that it was a nice trip down memory lane. For a few moments I was in my university youth again, filled with fond memories of good friends and great times triggered by specific songs. I didn't care particularly if it was official folk or commercial folk or any-other-adjective folk. It was music that I liked back then and still do. That's all that counts to me.

I remembered the lyrics and could sing along with most of them from start to finish. After 30 years, that says something about those songs. See if that happens with today's pop drivel!

Quality of performance? Probably a C+ at best... but I still watched it!

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 11:41 PM

Rick, Flaming Himself!!

Hey Fielding, do youse 'tink dat Duane's so smart 'cuz he agrees wit youse?

Ya....probably. But at least he REMEMBERS the old 'Hoot'nanny' Show. Remember how many great folk performers refused to go on 'cause they wouldn't let Pete Seeger on'? The Producer said "P.S. couldn't Hold an Audience!!!"

Cheers

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 11:36 PM

Jeez, DUANE! ONCE AGAIN you hit a home run! All the things that I tried to skip around a bit, you just came out and said. Bravo. And once again, you nailed a couple of "between the lines" things about that show that are SO accurate.

You don't say much, but yer a smart guy!

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Duane D.
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 11:20 PM

I don't know how this program was presented in your respective localities, but it was used as a fundraising attempt here on channel 21 (cable)WLIW (Long Island, NY)PBS. I found it, at best, to be reminiscent of what I remember of the Hootenanny TV show I watched religiously as a kid. This was my introduction to what was considered (commercial)folk music of that era, before I learned better. What made this program experience worse, were the people who were trying to raise pledges during the long breaks, who didn't know their folk music from a hole in the ground. And, if you pledged at the $250 level, you would receive the 10 cd boxed set of the selections from the show plus scores of rock hits they had the audacity to call folk music. BTW, the producer of the boxed set was some young guy in his twenties, who obviously wasn't even alive when this music was new, and doesn't know any better. I'm disappointed with PBS's ignorance(or naivete).

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 10:31 PM

Nice to hear Alex Hasilev and his back up band. The Brothers Four were still OK. Some was a nice trip down memory lane. Mostly it was pretty lame. I wanted more and better. Oh well.

Don

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Sandy McLean
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 09:57 PM

I have not seen the show in question so my comments are on past PBS folk legend / fundraising specials.
There was one on Woody done quite some time ago that I have on tape and often watch. It has Arlo discussing his father with some of Woody's friends such as Pete , Rambling Jack Elliot , Sonny Terry etc.
They would then jam with Arlo on some of Woody's songs. There were also later singers whom Woody influenced such as Joan Baez , Judy Collins, and Emmylou.
There was an excellent one on The Weavers , and another on Leadbelly.
They were great shows and perhaps they will be repeated some day.
My only complaint is that they only air this stuff when they are fundraising.
                   Slainte,
                      Sandy

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 09:49 PM

Wow, this IS a negative thread ain't it? You'd think that at least fifty percent of the Mudcatters would say "Hey, give 'em a break, they did their best, I'd like to see YOU do better job yadda yadda yadda....."

But sometimes a project is simply So cynically done, and So poorly sung, and so blatantly commercial that almost ALL folks see through it. I love PBS (and CBC in Canada) but I doubt they'll get the donations they expected from this show.

Look I don't think all poetry has to be Shakespeare, but watching the Smothers Brothers WHO DO KNOW BETTER, introducing Barry McGuire (still) singing "Eve of Destruction" as if it were ever important, and not simply 'dreck' of the highest order....well, I found that sad.

If only the brothers had mentioned their fight to get Pete and "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy" on the tube.....and even if....."my heart be still"...Roger McGuinn had sung it on this program. Just imagine, a song that was completely relevant in the sixties AND currently.

Rick

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Lane
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 09:30 PM

Well... I missed the show and will see it on the repeat airing on Wednesday. But this thread has pretty much killed my enthusiasm, thanks. Jeez.... Mudcat has changed from the postive group that I used to see.... Hey, we've all played and listened to engough music to know that there is some we enjoy listening to and other that we don't, but its the vast variety of music and people playing music, some wonderful, some horrid and others in the middle... that makes it folk music. Heck, I've made a few people cringe as I played around the campfire as I learned - but they always said something nice, or said nothing at all...

Eliteists? Maybe its not PBS or the musicians from the 60s and 70s that I still happen to respect.... maybe the elitists are a little closer to home.

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 07:26 PM

Jimmyt - it is good to vent!   I agree with you about elitism. Your point about judging the performers on appearance was well put. It is not fair to make easy jokes about their wrinkles and toupees. That is not right. Take the music for what it was.   While I would not want a steady diet of it, some of it can be fun. It is chewing gum, but there is nothing wrong with that.

This has been said elsewhere, but some of these groups were the first "boy bands". Perhaps N'Sync owes more to them!

It's odd when you think about it. Back then groups that went "commercial" were frowned upon.   Today's generation of singer-songwriters seem bent on finding that commercial success. The only difference is today's crop of "folk" artists are not compromising their art.   I'm speaking in general, there are exceptions of course.

Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: BH
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM

For what it is worth---I thought the show was pure "crap".

That said, I have to admit that some of those groups were what turned people---me included-- on to "folk" music---though, as it turns out they were really '5os and '60s commercial music that sold---and sold because of one of the groups that could not be represented---The Weavers. In hindsight--they were also commercial but with a difference once they left the Gordon Jenkins aegis.   Now I am getting too pedantic.

As to PBS. It is the annual---or it seems the almost daily shell game they play.   The Fund Raiser---present what they perceive the people want---then do their real quality programming in non fundraising times. Perhaps for truth in Advtsg they should do Nova, Frontline,etc; specials and pitch for that.

As to the filmed Audience: A standing ovation for every performer who graced the stage.   Perhaps they might have given one for the Brothers Four's bad toupees. That was pathetic.

I must say I pledged nada.   For my local NPR station I do---at least their fundraising is an honest presentation of what they do---as is the station I am affiliated with---like it or not this is what we do--that is our statement. You pledge for what you get.

And on radio you cannot see the bad wigs either.

PBS, sadly, wants to be everything to everyone. Does not work.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 05:58 PM

Well, maybe they just happened to get the folks that were willing to come on? I agree that this was disappointing, however, I think there is a tone of "elitism" about any group that had commercial success that I find annoying. Sorry, just had to vent. I agree with you, though Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 05:54 PM

Jimmyt,

I too listen, and play on my radio show, SOME of the artists that appeared on the show. I have a deep respect for the Kingston Trio and I think that the Limeliters have ALWAYS been good. The Limeliters continue to this day recording decent music.

I don't fault anyone for singing folk songs and getting others to sing. That should be applauded, even if their motives were commercial.   

I don't think anyone is faulting the program for showing aging performers. The problem that I had with the show is that they tried to pass it off as the "best" of what folk music had to offer during the folk revival.   That simply isn't the case. They presented a slice of a very commercial sound of folk music of the day. Where were the Greenbriar Boys? the New Lost City Ramblers? Pete Seeger? Joan Baez? any one of dozens of folksingers that represented folk music during the 1960s?

The fault we had is that the image they tried to present was not 100%accurate.

Ron

Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 05:38 PM

I also saw the show and was, I admit, a bit disappointed, as I also am when I have seen the old Do-woppers, a little sad, however, I think we need to keep in mind, that , Damn, people, these folks in both shows are getting a little old. WHat do you want to do with them, take them out and shoot them just because they happen to be getting a little long in the tooth? Oh yes, perhaps this music wasn't exactly "protesty enough" to suit some of you, perhaps some of these folks haven't "made any contributions"since the 60's, but they did make them then, and I for one, enjoy that type of music, as I do many many other types. If I had a chance to go hear a nostalgia group that I had liked back in the 60's I would probably do it, but I would also go hear a young singer-songwriter. Would I be a little disappointed at the nostalgia group? maybe, but hey, not every singer songwriter happens to be setting the woods on fire either. I suspect that the reason they put these shows on is that people...maybe not as "sophisticated musically"as you, but people, like to watch them. I imagine most folks are a little disappointed deep down, but they are still the ones who did the music in 1962 or whenever, and I think a lot of folks are willing to cut them a break and say, hey, he's not as young as he used to be. I play this music all the time to lots of audiences who are tickled to death to hear old weary old songs like Greenback Dollar and Tom Dooley. LOTS of folks (is it OK if I use the word folk here?) enjoyed Kingston Trio, Limeliters, Peter Paul and Mary. It was deep enough for them, although maybe a little too "commercial" for the folk masses, it beat Living Strings in 1964.