BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM

Come on Old Guy. You started a great thread but the time has come to cast your vote. We gotta clear the way for the next round and the subsequent debate: VOTE   VOTE    VOTE

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM

Old Guy - The truth is that with digital photography, you can't believe any of the images you see anymore but you keep referring to
photos and fake "news" footage. Do you have proof of this or is this a general statement referring to all news coverage?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM

Hugo the expert on Lebanon:

Do the women vote in Lebanon?

Howcome Hezbollah goes around handing out those evil $100 US bills instead of Livres, Rials or Syrian Pounds?

Where did the $100 bills come from? Tehran or Syria?

Why is it necessary to doctor photos and fake "news" footage if the truth is so obvious?

Maybe you shoud read this book:
Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon
From Publishers Weekly
Fisk, a former Middle East correspondent for the London Times , details violence, sundry political factions, the 1982 invasion of Israel, the efforts of the multinational peace-keeping force and the taking of Western hostages. "A passionate and often angry book describing how Lebanon 'humiliated the West, brought shame upon Israel, corrupted the Syrians and destroyed itself,'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:20 AM

LOL! Fat Old Woody talking about "bullshitting gullible people"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM

1. NO
2. YES
3. NO

"Jarema Wisniowiecki" Didn,t he play in the outfield for the Red Sox?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM

1. No
2. Yes
3. No

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:50 AM

This is a time of terror, no voting aloud.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:36 AM

hugo, that last line WAS A JOKE! Get it? Don't be so serious. Grow a sense of humor and above all else vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:47 AM

I think you will find that very few women in Lebanon wear the burkha....that's worn in afghanistan which is several thousand miles further east.Just another example of the islamophobia among the zionist supporters on this site.Actually the Israels slaughtered christians,muslims and secularists during their invasion.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM

Jarema Wisniowiecki. Don't know why he seems to fit right into the present theme.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:14 AM

OK. Very Good. We've had a nice debate that has run on and probably equals any debate at the UN. AND we have accomplished about as much as the UN. Now contestants, the time has come to cast your votes as to the question, "Is Hezbollah Winning?" We shall ignore the question of winning "WHAT?" and only focus on winning "WHERE?" If you think Hezbollah has won on the ground, put a YES by the number 1 (see below). If not, place a NO by your number 1.

If you believe that Hezbollah has won in the main-stream American media, place a YES by your number 2. If not then a NO by number 2.

Thirdly if you believe Hezbolla has carried the day at this Mudcat Thread, place a YES by the number 3. If not, then a NO by your number 3.

A word of caution to those who may be of the female gender who support the Hezbollah postion. Your are not allowed to vote. You are to remain ensconced in your burkahs with veil in place and keep silent.

1. NO
2. YES
3. NO

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:36 PM

Try reading about Muhammad taking Mecca. What is a Hudna?

This ceasefire is a Hudna.

I think that is more germaine to what is happening in Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:36 PM

And you're right about the bridges--one of Israel's more stupid moves. That's the sort of thing perceived as senseless destruction by most Lebanese--the argument of preventing resupply of Hezbollah doesn't cut much ice with them. It just turns their anger toward Israel--and their support to any group that opposes Israel--e.g. Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM

Old Guy--try doing some reading about World War I--especially about the interlocking alliance systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:24 PM

Ron:

One of Hezbollah's justifications for the attack was because Israel is still occupying land that Lebanon claims was taken from them even though it was taken from Syria. I don't see how taking more land fixes anything.

Any retaliation that is not premeditated is belligerence which is what the Lebs are claiming.

I think the Christians and non Hezbollah supporters are more pissed off at Hezbollah after the destruction but how would we know with Hezbollah faking the "news" you see coming out of Lebanon.

From what I gather, you can't tell the Hizbollah fighters from the innocent civilians because they don't have uniforms. 90% of the innocent victims might not be innocent. They were told to leave because the shit was going to hit the fan. Even leaflets were dropped. Why didn't they leave if the were not Hizbollah?

Then there is the Martyr thing. They are told their life will never be worth a shit because of the evil enemy. If they die they will help their country, go to heaven and be honored as a Martyr.

I think WWI started when Archduke Ferdinand got assassinated on a bridge in Sarajevo.

They got archdukes in Lebanon? They sure don't have many bridges left.

The only way Hezbollah is won is by bullshitting gullible people into thinking they won.

Let them pound their chest and mount an even fiercer attack and see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:14 PM

There are plenty of other mistakes to be made.

Interestingly enough, I've read recently--believe it was in the Economist--speculation that the ceasefire may in fact last longer than expected--since Hezbollah won't be eager to jeopardize their new position as heroes of the Arab world--and since they also now have responsibilities---I gather in the reconstruction activities in Lebanon.

But it also would not be smart for Israel to start up the war again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:06 PM

The Israelis made some mistakes.

They will learn from them.

They won't make the same mistakes twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM

Well, Mr. Guy-- (can I just call you Old?)--you have admitted the Israelis did not go "all out". This perception has caused a lot of discontent in Israel--it's as if they could not decide whether it was purely a military campaign or also a political maneuver. As a result they wound up doing neither well.

Also, if you don't think solidifying opposition against you, which Israel did do with its destruction of Lebanese infrastructure (and accompanying "collateral damage") is a negative development--you should think again.

And it was totally unnecessary--seizing border territory, in response to Hezbollah's provocations, would have incurred much less opposition from Lebanese in general--and not inflamed the Arab world. So it would have been a temporary solution--this is the Mideast---attempts at permanent change can easily backfire. Consider Mr. Bush's campaign to push democracy--in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories. Not precisely the results he wanted.

From what I read, Israel's attack on Lebanon far from the border was also premeditated--it was hoped that this would raise opposition to Hezbollah by Christians and others who would resent the destruction Hezbollah had brought on Lebanon.

And it worked--for a few days.

Then, as the civilian death toll rose, the tide shifted against Israel. And the continued bombing solidified that trend.

As I said earlier, Hezbollah miscalculated--but Israel did also--and the latter was far more serious.

And if you think "going all out" is the solution, you must have been a big fan of World War I--that's how it started. Now, as then, the other powers will not sit idly by.

Good thing your power to set foreign policy is limited, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:24 PM

The Amnesty International report is a two parter. The first part is about what Israel did and the forthcoming second part will be abut what Hezbollah did.

Stay tuned

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM

sIx -

Sure enough, fair point! I know I know I depart from the thread topic sometimes, I see connections between all sorts of things and have to see where they lead... but I'll try to desist in future!

BTW - (and this is the last one, promise!) : true, the Apaches didn't have wiping out the white man off their agenda, they just wanted to be let live as they always had, free to go where they pleased in their own land. And look what happened to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

From Amnesty's site:

Lebanon
In Lebanon, hundreds of civilians were killed by Israeli forces in attacks on residential areas causing massive destruction. Others were killed in attacks on vehicles as villagers were heeding the calls by the Israeli army to leave their homes in South Lebanon.

On 7 August, more than 50 civilians were killed in one of Beirut's neighbourhoods, Shyah. Amnesty International (AI) delegates in the country visited the area the day after Israeli bombardment and found a scene of utter devastation, with bodies of women and children still being pulled from beneath the rubble. Israeli forces had not issued any prior warning to the inhabitants of the impending air strikes. Shyah, had been considered safer than other districts and people who had fled their homes from other parts of the country, had sought shelter there.

As more areas were targeted by Israeli forces the number of displaced people grew: a month into the conflict about one million people – a quarter of the entire population of Lebanon – had fled. Since the ceasefire, many are returning home, but tens of thousands have no home to return to.

Israel
In Israel, some 40 civilians were killed in attacks by Hizbullah on towns and villages, including Haifa, Kiryat Shmona, Nahariya, Safed, Ma'alot and Acre. Hizbullah launched thousands of rockets into northern Israel, many of them in areas populated by civilians. AI delegates who visited the north of Israel to investigate the attacks found evidence that some of the rockets used by Hizbullah contained thousands of metal ball bearings. These increase the potential for fatalities as people not in immediate vicinity can be killed or seriously injured by the spray of ball bearings.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:29 PM

"Civilian victims on both sides of this conflict deserve justice. The serious nature of violations committed makes an investigation into the conduct of both parties urgent. There must be accountability for the perpetrators of war crimes and reparation for the victims."

"Amnesty International is calling for a comprehensive, independent and impartial inquiry to be urgently established by the UN into violations of international humanitarian law by both sides in the conflict. It should examine in particular the impact of this conflict on the civilian population, and should be undertaken with a view to holding individuals responsible for crimes under international law and ensuring that full reparation is provided to the victims."

Two parts of the report that will no doubt be overlooked by some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM

Here's a link to the amnesty international report.

The environmental damage inflicted by Israel will plague the Lebanese for years to come.

I wonder if Israel will help pay for the clean-up and reconstruction?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:37 PM

Actually the Israels were held up by the Lebanese resistance led by Hezbollah who turned their border villages into strongholds where the Israeli soldiers had to fight for every house.The surrounding hills were also occupied and it meant that the Israeli got ambushed with RPG s and anti tank missiles,snipers and landmines.

Almost all the villages were gutted by Israeli shell fire ,tank round and machine gun bullets.The devastation has been immense but the Israelis lost tanks,armoured bulldozers and men.They will try again but I dont think the ground war will resume in the immediate future.More likely the Israelis will continue tio destroy the civilian targets mentioned in the Amnesty Report issued today.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:54 AM

Well mr Davies, I disagree with you. In my oppinion, the only thing the Israelis did wrong is they did not go all out in ther retaliation. They were held back by Olmert who is evidently not a warrior.

Therefore they did not gain anything. Nor did they loose anything. The stage is being set for round 2 and maybe this time they will go all out.

It seems that they are afraid of the bad pr generated by Hezbollah courtesy of MSM.

I think it is notable that Iran is not in such good financial shape despite oil revenuse. An economic emabrgo would bring it to it's knees but Russia and China and others would not participate.

That's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM

Honest - It only showed 399 when I posted !!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

400 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:54 AM

Amnesty International today issued a report accusing the Israeli military of committing war crimes in the Lebanon.In particular it pointed to the bombing of the civilian infrastructure and the killing of innocent people in the attack on the Lebanon.
It is to deal with Hezbollah in a separate report.
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM

"Anglo-Saxon" helicopters or other agents of death & destruction "

'The Hughie' helicopter.

'The minuteman rocket"

'The Abrams" tank

'the Bradly' tank

to name just a few.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:07 AM

I thought they were from Poland.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM

"Funny, ain't it, you don't see "Irishman" or "Anglo-Saxon" helicopters or other agents of death & destruction "

Oh yeah, what about pole-axe eh? eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:04 AM

"bankruptcy"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:38 AM

Old Guy--

I have no doubt that you will cut and paste when it pleases you. And your selfishness in that regard can be considered abusing our hospitality.

I note with interest that you have not contradicted my analysis of how the Israelis themselves see the outcome of the recent war.

So much for your bald statement that nothing has changed in the balance between Israel and Hezbollah.

It's also interesting, as Peace notes, that you seem to have no recourse but to fall back on the typical Bushite accusation that anybody who does not agree with you is part of the "hate America crowd"-- which establishes more clearly than anything else could the bankrupcy of your position.

As for "itching for a fight"--I just happen to be interested in facts--which are easily obtainable from certified leftist rags like the Wall St. Journal.   And I also don't seek to bury my debate opponents in long excerpts easily obtainable elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

folks basically. And I smoked lots in the '60s and '70s.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 12:01 AM

I do not hate America. I think America--meaning the US--could do much better than having Bush lead the country, but Americans are good

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:59 PM

but out of respect for the Native American tribe these helicopters are named after, I would recommend capitalizing the word Apache.

Or, the U.S. government could show REAL respect for the indigenous peoples by not naming the damn machine "Apache" or the missle "tomahawk" & etc. in the first place.

Funny, ain't it, you don't see "Irishman" or "Anglo-Saxon" helicopters or other agents of death & destruction ... wonder why that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:55 PM

RD youre just itchin for a fight. I never said you advocated not supporting Isreal and I don't smoke.

That seems to be a common phrase here as if everybody smokes dope and anyone not following the hate america crowd is accused of smoking something else.

I will cut and paste when it pleases me and you are invited do whatever you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:40 PM

"power and prestige"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:27 PM

Apache also means a Parisian gangster or thug

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:21 PM

Old Guy--"not worsened or improved it's (sic) situation"

Fascinating that the Israelis themselves seem to disagree with you. Olmert pressed to resign. Protests by soldiers in the streets. Yup, sure sounds like nothing has happened--no change, just like you said.

And you're right--gullible people-- for instance the Wall St Journal--which every day points out how Hezbollah has risen in the Arab world--especially in prestige amd power in Lebanon.


What are you smoking?

And please point out to me exactly where I advocated that the US not support Israel with foreign aid--if you'd be so good.

But thanks for refraining from cut-and-paste. There, that didn't hurt much, did it? See, you can do it.

I wonder if you can refrain from cut-and-paste twice in a row. It would be a new record for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:35 PM

Sorry, six,

sometimes I put the course before the hart.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:12 PM

"Isn't Shambles an Old Guy?"

Hmmmmmm .... good analogy.





but then ... so am I.


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

Isn't Shambles an Old Guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM

Hezbollah have nowhere near the abilities of the Apache. So let's forget THAT analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:57 PM

Official history of the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:50 PM

Nick .... ok, i know ya had to throw that in :).

LH ... The Apache's mandate wasn't the total destruction of the white settlers ... no comparison the Hezbollah at all.

Let's stick to the subject of the thread and leave the indigenous people of north america out of it ... or maybe start a new thread ... how about that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM

Well, the Apache didn't have the support of Iran or Syria.

As to the question posed in the thread title, Hezbollah HAS won round one. Israel's approach to the war was stupid and ill-considered. When they have time to reflect, I think they will come to the same conclusion (as some of Israel's citizens and soldiers already have).

The second round will have to be very different. Israel needs to take an etymology lesson and give study to the word 'hashish' and its origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:22 PM

Salute the Apaches, sort of the Hezbollah of their day...opponents of US expansionism!
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:17 PM

The AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopter was designed to be tough and survive under combat conditions. Much like The Apache themselves. Certainly amongst the finest guerrilla fighters the world ever produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:10 PM

OK...but why are helicopters named after Indian tribes?????