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BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:00 PM Villan, I've already said I vehemently disagree with "that guy's" agenda. I have only posted in this thread because of the tone of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM GSS, so Sadam DID have nukes!? That is an amazing, history changing revelation! What happened to them ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM Well Carol, I am not prepared to listen to that guy. Whilst I support womens rights, I have enough on my plate with my health and having special needs with both my daughters, I unfortunately have to look at our survival. That doesn't mean that I am not interested in such issues. If you can support such issues then that is great. I am so anti BNP and am scared what damage they can do, together with such protest marches. However what with the concert venue I run and my own family issues, its as much as I can cope with. You may not believe this but I hate violence in whatever shape or form, that may be. That doesn't stop me getting angry. Les |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:31 PM "Like I said Lizzie you are not doing very well on this one." Ya know, you should maybe try living in Afghanistan, Dave. The way you talk to me and about me....I'm sure you'd find a few men over there who you'd *really* get along with. FKOFUCF YWH TN'OD OYU...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:43 PM Oh yeah? Bet you'd not have said a WORD about it if I hadn't pointed that out! Dick posted that at 7.56am....and it took you ALL that time, Dave..? Come ON, you'd have been there INSTANTLY if that had been me. Well such a statement is easily tested Lizzie, you posted a long link precisely like that one. Now point out where I said anything to you about it? Let alone instantly. As usual you talk a load of horlicks. Poorly researched horlicks. For the third time on this thread. Like I said Lizzie you are not doing very well on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM Are you willing to actually listen to the women in question, about what they want though, Villan, or are you, like Lizzie, of the more paternalistic school of thought that seems so prevalent in our Western countries, that the women in countries like Afghanistan are not able to make decisions for themselves? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:27 PM Finally the last few posts seem to be hitting at the point that women need to be protected against men who seem to think that they can treat women as second class citizens. To me that is a problem in this world and has nothing to do with religion. In our house we are all equal. I have to say that as I have a wife and 2 daughters :-) I am against the protest, but support womens rights, that are not influenced by what men dictate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM What the women in Afghanistan have said they want is financial support for rebuilding their country and society and for funding their efforts to make their lives better. I think that's a good start. I think we should let them tell us what they want. I don't believe we help them by acting all paternalistic with them, patting them on their heads, telling them we know what's best for them, and then cramming that down their throats. Let's start listening to them and getting our guidance on how to help from them. I think they are perfectly capable of knowing what's in their best interests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM OK, Carol, tell me this..... WHAT would you do to make women's lives not only better, but FREE, in Afghanistan? The Taliban stink. The War Lords stink. The country is ruled and filled with misogynists who are NOT going to set their women free.... So how do you help these poor women? How do you get to them? What do you do? Do you just walk away and leave them to these men who beat them, burn them, rape them? Do you leave a land where women have to turn to prostitution if their husbands die? Do you leave a land where women have TWO rights, The Right To Pray (but not in the mosque) and The Right to Obey Their Husbands? Does the West truly turn its back and leave them to their fate? Yes, the millitary, the war, is causing even more problems, but when that is all over and done with, those poor women are left to the non-existant mercy of those bastards! How do you not only educate the women, but educate the MEN? How do you break this terrible cycle of hatred towards women that has grown out of a Holy Book?????? This video contains highly unpleasant pictures of scarred and burnt women, so please do not open if it may upset you, but just think of what they are having to endure, each and every day.... The Women of Afghanistan..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM There is NO need to apologise, Dick. Don't give in to them. No-one has to read it if they don't want to, it really is that easy. >>>And for the record I think Dick was wrong to cut and paste a huge piece like that rather than provide a link.<<< Oh yeah? Bet you'd not have said a WORD about it if I hadn't pointed that out! Dick posted that at 7.56am....and it took you ALL that time, Dave..? Come ON, you'd have been there INSTANTLY if that had been me. And.....it doesn't worry or upset me at all that Dick posted all those words. Not one little bit. Now, back to Wootton Bassett, which has seen enough sadness these past months/years, without having to have the possible memory of anger and hatred on their streets.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM my apologies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM And for the record I think Dick was wrong to cut and paste a huge piece like that rather than provide a link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM Give me a chance, Lizzie. Good Soldier Schweik's cutting and pasting does indeed fly in the face of guidance in the Mudcat FAQs, and I am particularly surprised that he did it so soon after someone cited the relevant guidance. Presumably Max is more relaxed about the practice than when the FAQs were last updated, otherwise a moderator would have taken corrective action in respect of both Lizzie's and GSS's blatant transgressions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM Yes, it's still on.... It seems the local police want it to happen, but the Home Secretary has said he'll back any call for it to be banned, if the police ask him. Muslim Leaders condemn march........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:08 PM Is it on or not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM Now, isn't it strange. Dick can cut and paste vast amounts from a site and no-one bats an eyelid or makes a comment..but..if *I* do it, all hell breaks loose... Weird, huh? And *that*, peter is what proves to me that the hysteria is all part of the witch hunt.. And now, back to Wootton Bassett... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:56 AM and from a totally different source. this. Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein: The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984 National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82 Edited by Joyce Battle February 25, 2003 Print this page Jump to documents Washington Post "Live Online" chat with Archive Middle East Analyst Joyce Battle, "Iraq: Declassified Documents of U.S. Support for Hussein," February 27, 2003 Video Clip: "Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein," Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. [Windows Media Video (WMV). Opens in Windows Media Player] (Iraqi television; courtesy CNN) High Resolution (2.54 MB) Low Resolution (734 KB) The Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) was one of a series of crises during an era of upheaval in the Middle East: revolution in Iran, occupation of the U.S. embassy in Tehran by militant students, invasion of the Great Mosque in Mecca by anti-royalist Islamicists, the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan, and internecine fighting among Syrians, Israelis, and Palestinians in Lebanon. The war followed months of rising tension between the Iranian Islamic republic and secular nationalist Iraq. In mid-September 1980 Iraq attacked, in the mistaken belief that Iranian political disarray would guarantee a quick victory.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:50 AM where to start. firstly Carol has a good point,frequently when western governments interfere in other countries they create or exarcebate problems. In Africa western imperialistic countries created problems, by creating boundaries regardless of tribal boundaries. lets look at the Christian religion, the catholic church has been abusing sexually and physically, for years. the Christian religion were the aggressors in The Crusades. that does not excuse ther muslim religion,but it puts a different perspective on the two religions. KEITH A andMGM,Please google.arming IRAQ,A CHRONOLOGY OF US INVOLVEMENT,byJohn King ,march 2003. it states quite clearly that Iraq was supplied nuclear, chemical and other weapons by various western governments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:24 AM Lizzie, what makes you sound suspiciously close to the BNP is your readiness to use phrases like we have become almost second class citizens in our own land. I know a few UK muslims who don't feel that at all, and certainly I don't feel it myself. But perhaps it wasn't "us" you were speaking for? I'd post links and words to it, but some folks in here suffer Total Hysteria about that, I think you have misunderstood Lizzie. No-one in this thread, nor anywhere else on Mudcat so far as I know, has ever objected to people providing links to their sources. Au contraire, the practice is positively encouraged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Backwoodsman Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:26 AM 'The Bookseller of Kabul' (Asne Seierstad) and 'Three Cups of Tea' (Greg Mortensen and David O. Relin) are good reads, and provide insightful, non-hysterical commentary on some of the issues raised in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM And then there is the problem of the kind of track record the history of Western intervention in the Middle East has had. Whenever Western governments have gotten involved in the Middle East, the result has ultimately been greater repression rather than less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM "These people do not deserve to live. Anyone who could do that to an innocent child does not deserve to live, in my opinion..." And does it matter how many women and children Western governments are happy to eliminate as "collateral damage" in pursuit of them? If we're killing them, how are we any better than their "oppressors"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:10 AM I've already posted (twice) an interview with a feminist and women's rights activist who has taken signatures of women in Afghanistan in a petition telling President Obama that they want our (US) troops out of their country. I have read things written by Pakistani women who say that want Pakistanis to solve the problems in Pakistan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:03 AM What/which women have said this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:58 AM Well, Lizzie, the women of countries where that is happening, like Afghanistan and Pakistan, have said that they don't want the US or the UK to wage war in their countries. I think they are entitled to decide for themselves what they would prefer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:41 AM And what about their female children having acid poured on their faces, Carol,purely for going to school? Thank you, Dave, I am well aware, having worked in Harley Street during the 70s, that many Arab men wear long clothes. I have to say, that of the thousands of Arab men I *did* meet, I never met one wearing a 'veil' but...who knows. Their faces were always free to the air. They also were able to choose if they wanted to adopt Western fashion whilst over here, perhaps even doing so in their own countries too, although I'd presume most didn't, as being covered in the right sort of light coloured, light fabric, long clothes is more cooling in the summer, but it is not up to any man to dictate to any woman what she should or should not be wearing, nor to punish her if she refuses to do as she is told. There is a terrible culture of bullying within parts of Islam, I'm afraid....not just by the men, but by the fanatical women too. If you read 'Not Without My Daughter' you'll learn about the Iranian women police who travel around in their vans looking out for women who are not suitably dressed. This happened to the author herself, who despite being American had to adopt the full dresscode, as she was living with her husband's family at the time. She had a tiny part of her leg showing, just above the ankle, where her gown had got caught up without her knowing one day, when she was out....She was put up against a wall and screamed at by hysterical women, brainwashed from birth to behave this way.... Yes, there are many cultured parts of the Middle East, with many, many highly cultured and intelligent people, but there are also parts that are filled with shitty control freak religious zealots who'd scare the hell out of me, because I know what they are capable of. I learnt, a long time back, that many Arab minds function very differently to the Western mind. When you brainwash children from birth to hate Westerners, as happens out there in some countries, then you have walking bombs, because that hate goes so deep that the child who becomes the adult isn't even aware of it...It's like they're hypnotised...and when the fingers are clicked, they behave just as they've been trained to... And to those who will now scream "Racist!" at me, I am talking ONLY of the Extremists here...and yes, you also have complete nutters in other religions, because they are brought up, brainwashed in the same way...and few are able to break out of it... "Give me a child until he is seven and he is mine for life" I think the Jesuits say..... What you have to do is educate the children, but of course, you can't educate the female children, because if you do, they run the terrible risk of acid being thrown on them by the Taliban. These people do not deserve to live. Anyone who could do that to an innocent child does not deserve to live, in my opinion... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:22 AM As a father, given the choice, I'D wear the burka. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:17 AM We crossposted, 999. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:16 AM Nope. That doesn't look right, either. As a mother, I can say that given a choice between wearing the burka, or having their kids blown up, most mothers would choose the burka. And if Western countries decide to wage war against their countries just to "liberate" them from their burkas, that is a very real possibility for them. But as someone who is not a Muslim, and does not live in a Musim country, I am not in a position to say how the women in those places who do wear them feel about it. And no-one who isn't in their position can really say how they feel about it either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:14 AM "Anyway, if you ask those burka-wearing women in those countries if they would rather wear the burka or have their kids all blown to hell by US or UK bombs (in order to "liberate" them from their burkas), I'll be money they would prefer to wear the burka." Those are your words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:13 AM And you ARE in a position to speak for them? Right! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:09 AM I should rephrase what I just posted. No one except the women who wear burkas are in a position to say whether or not they would prefer to wear them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM You're not in a position to speak for them, 999. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:01 AM They would likely prefer neither. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:40 AM Anyway, if you ask those burka-wearing women in those countries if they would rather wear the burka or have their kids all blown to hell by US or UK bombs (in order to "liberate" them from their burkas), I'll be money they would prefer to wear the burka. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:03 PM Well, this is kinda nice...but if those lads had to wear a full body burkha on a hot day, I bet they'd be complainin' like hell.... Your cultural experiences must be very limited. Lots of men wear full clothing in hot climates. Including a veil. Limited research again Lizzie. Not doing very well on this thread are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: akenaton Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM Oh My! the contradictions of "liberalism"....seems they are all in danger of disappearing up their own arseholes! Common sense and reason is the answer children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM "I still worry about any religous zealots who feel they have a divine right to insist that I had no choice BUT to wear one.." But who is insisting that you should? No one is. Many Muslim women say that they enjoy the freedom from vanity and body fascism which comes of not having to conform to western ideas of how women ought to look and dress. Personally, I don't think there's anything more depressing, twisted or oppressive about the burkha than there is about the increasing cult of cosmetic surgery in the west. Who are we to tell these women that they are being oppressed, when in our culture it has become completely normalised for women to starve themselves and carve their bodies and faces up in order to achieve some elusive ideal? Who has created that ideal? Who has told women in our ever-so enlightened society that there is one perfect way to look, and that it is right and normal that they should mutilate their own bodies in order to try and achieve it? These concepts come from industries in which men call the shots and women are commodities. Many of the women who mutilate themselves in this way end up looking like side-show freaks, and for what? Like the majority of women who wear the burkha, these cosmetically "enhanced" women will also tell you that it's their choice to do what they are doing. But the pressure is clearly coming from various social and societal factors, and quite often from the men in their lives. And look at the way that pornography has become so normalised, with top-shelf magazines now being freely on sale in WH Smith's and little girls saying they want to grow up to be Page 3 models or pole dancers. So are we really so much more sorted than the women who wear the burkha? Are we so much more enlightened that we can sit here and preach about them? I'm not so sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM Anjem Choudary is a crank with a couple of dozen of crank supporters. He runs a website that makes claims that Islam4UK is some sort of "organisation" - it is not. It is just Choudary. He is media savvy and the media just love to lap up everything he has to say. Note that the muslim residents of Wootton Bassett who turn out to honour the dead get only a footnote in the column-miles dedicated to this subject - and it took Keith A of H to notice it and bring it here! Lizzie and others. You are as damned stupid and malicious as are the press organs that grind this tired old crap out time after time. Choudary is a non-story that appeals to some people's baser instincts and the reactions of Lizzie et al tell us more about their dark sides than anything else. Why should the 200,000 or so peaceful Muslims in this country have to flagellate themselves and beg for Cornish mercy every time a crank like this pipes up? It's as crazy as suggesting that every Brit or Yank should commit harakiri for the mass murdering lawlessnes of Blair and Bush. Get a grip people, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:54 PM yawnnnnnnnnnnn..... Well, this is kinda nice...but if those lads had to wear a full body burkha on a hot day, I bet they'd be complainin' like hell.... Queens of Islam Now even though I've reached an age and er...a shape...where a full body burkha seems one helluva great idea, I still worry about any religous zealots who feel they have a divine right to insist that I had no choice BUT to wear one.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:34 PM "Well, yes, of course. So that means if someone's going to organise a 'profoundly unpleasant, misguided and provocative' march, then you tell 'em they can't...." And that's free speech? What about the various causes you champion, Lizzie? Not that you seem to get beyond the ranting stage with most of them, but what if you decided to have a march to raise awareness of your inflated water bills, or your mother-in-law's bath handles, and people where you live found it "profoundly unpleasant, misguided and provocative" - should you be allowed to go ahead? Or is it a case of one rule for you, and another for people with whom you disagree? Please provide evidence for the ways in which you have become a second-class citizen in your country, and real (not fabricated by tabloids) examples of Muslims and other immigrants receiving rights and privileges that you do not. "And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol...." What - that it turns out that they think like you? No - there lies the danger of buying into the white-eyed paranoia of the tabloids, who whip up hysteria to sell their papers to gullible morons, who then base their political "views" on misinformation and outright lies. You may find that you're keeping some pretty nasty bedfellows. But this is what comes of not fundamentally understanding the principles of free speech or the basic tenets of British democracy. Oh, the irony. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:28 PM Well, yes, of course. So that means if someone's going to organise a 'profounly unpleasant, misguided and provocative' march, then you tell 'em they can't.... Problem solved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM ...because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land. Are you fed up with this country, and in what way have you become a second-class citizen? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Smedley Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM And if you have to treat everyone equally, then the profoundly unpleasant, misguided and provocative Choudary has the same right to protest as every other citizen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM "The way it was framed sounded like it could have come directly from the BNP." And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol....because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land. You have to treat *everyone* equally, otherwise you create far more problems than you could ever dream of. ALL of us in this country are as important as each other...and I have no problem with skin colour or religions, other than when religions are used by murderers and terrorists to hide behind. Thank God, whoever your God may be, that the Mega Mosque in London seems to have been stopped from going ahead now..because even the local Muslim population of Newham complained about that one.... I'd post links and words to it, but some folks in here suffer Total Hysteria about that, sooooooooooooooooooo you can all look it up yourselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM Surely this is not, or should not, be about Moslems, Christians, Imperialism or any such. Is it not about a specific protest and whether it is right or not? Whatver the cause?... ...They just view that suggested protest as, at best, tasteless and, at worst, hurtful to those who have lost people in the war. It could have been just about the protest itself. Had the disagreement with the protest been framed similarly to the way you have framed it above, I would not have posted to this thread at all. But it wasn't. The way it was framed sounded like it could have come directly from the BNP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:11 PM MtheGM, you are correct. We will continue to disagree. I maintain that when Western governments stop interfering in the affairs of Muslim countries, even the most extreme of Muslims will be far more concerned with what goes on in Muslim countries than in Western countries, and all of their energies will be spent in the Muslim countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM I must say, Dick, that it seems most unlikely to me that any western government with a modicum of the sense it was born with would ever issue an export licence for such a transaction as you seem to postulate here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM How could I prove a negative? You made the claim,so come up with something please. |