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BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 01:56 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 19 May 04 - 12:45 AM "Apparently no one has any definite evidence as to the actual nationality of the executioners." exactly. no one has any verification that the video is not a fake either. there are plenty of speculations on that citing evidence in the video itself. and the details behind the last few weeks of nick berg's life seem very hard to discover or verify either. so why does everyone have such strong opinions about something that is completely unverifiable and the stories behind it confused and at odds? because it is a brilliant piece of propaganda that allows the consumer of such to pour out his/her predjudices and hatred with chilling self-righteousness. enough to justify the killing of innocents. we live in a dark time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 18 May 04 - 09:27 PM I already said, anyone who feels it necessary to engage in name-calling is welcome to do so on some other thread. It makes for negative energy and isn't good for the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 18 May 04 - 08:53 PM Calling someone a name is definitely rude but... uncalled for? It is pale compared to the names Martin has called me and others. I rarely call people names but, in Martin's case, he deserves it. Besides that, I actually enjoy pushing Martin's buttons so that he can respond and show his true colours. There is nothing worse, in my opinion, than a Jew who treats others with the same kind of disdain that Hitler showed for Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 18 May 04 - 09:42 AM COOL IT PLEASE with the Nazi stuff. It is rude and uncalled for. Surely you are all intelligent enough to be able to think of better words than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Wolfgang Date: 17 May 04 - 12:41 PM Yes, McGrath, the Tehran Times site which remains a Tehran site even when reprinting an article from somewhere else. However, thanks for directing my attention to my post so I can correct a different mistake: 'Arab' was the wrong word for a site from Iran. Persian or, even better, Iranian is what I should have posted. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 17 May 04 - 10:54 AM Trust no-one, believe no-one, for that way lies madness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 May 04 - 10:10 AM Interesting link to an Arab site. Which was that Wolfgang? If you mean the link to the non-Arab "Tehran Times", so far as I can see the article is taken from an American source. The business of Nick Berg being pulled in by the American authorities, then released and subsequently being picked up by the people who killed him - it has overtones of the kind of incident that happened in the Civil Rights struggle in the Deep South. The idea that there might at times be some kind of working collaboration between American agents and a freelance terrorist group is not something that can be ruled out. Odd alliances can occur - remember how, during the Iran-Iraq war, while the US was in most ways effectively backing Saddam's Iraq, there was Ollie North, off on the side arranging to supply Iran with weaponry in order to finance terrorists in Nicaragua. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 17 May 04 - 08:48 AM No problem Dianavan, nice response and I'm glad we're friends again! Johnny :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 17 May 04 - 01:36 AM He's a credit to his people |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 17 May 04 - 01:30 AM I think Martin is a Jewish Nazi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Jack the Sailor Date: 17 May 04 - 12:57 AM So Mr. Powell just got back from Jordon where he apparanty criticized Arab leaders for not "showing outrage" at the killing of Berg. Can you imagine the gall it must take to do that? Was he not 600 times more upset that they did not show outrage for the deaths of Nigerian Christians? Martin Gibson, you may not be a NAZI but you sure are a hate monger and a bigot. Oh and for bringing your dead relatives into the arguement. What shall we call you? How about classless neocon? I understand where DougR is coming from, In WWII the Japanese and Germans were called subhuman. Certainly in my lifetime the Communists were labeled godless savages and worse. Doug watches Mr. Murdoch's Propaganda channel does he not? But I was saddened see Doug bring our dear departed into this messy and unkind debate. I hope he decides to think twice before ever doing that again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 16 May 04 - 11:48 PM I guess that makes you an Arab hating Jew. Am I surprized? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Once Famous Date: 16 May 04 - 10:18 PM You know, dianavam I don't give a shit if Nick Berg's killer was a Jordanian or an Iraqui. Either way, he was a Jew hating Arab. Right Lupis Rex? What was that sound?? Oh, it was your head popping out of your ass. Smear you? Hardly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 16 May 04 - 09:43 PM Strollin Johnny - Thanks for the clarification. I, feel bewildered by the number of stories floating around out there. I, do, however stand by the facts stated above. At this time, all stories seem to agree on those three facts. Maybe someone can blue clicky something to change my mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 16 May 04 - 08:59 PM Dianavan, why insensitive? Read it again. Did I say 'profit', or was the word I used 'benefit'?. They're not the same thing, 'profit' intimates an element of 'enrichment', whereas 'benefit' implies simply 'compensation', and I chose my words very carefully in order to try to avoid unjustified accusations of the kind you've made. And did I not say, in the very next sentence, that I'm not casting aspersions on Berg's family's honesty? I merely stated the fact (a real fact, not a piece of propaganda I've been fed that suits my personal agenda and which I then regurgitate as 'fact') that, in a highly litigious society like the USA with it's well-developed compensation-culture, it's not unreasonable to assume that the family will seek a suitable level of compensation for the loss of their son? I've been at pains, in this thread, to express my genuine sadness at the death, not only of this young man, but every other death that's resulted from these adventures that the US and the UK have embarked upon, and I've also expressed my heartfelt sympathy for his family and friends. So, am I a realist? I'll hold my hand up to that, no sweat. Sympathetic? Yep, that too. Insensitive? I think not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 16 May 04 - 11:10 AM SOP - Read this: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/15/iraq/main617643.shtml Sorry about the clumsy link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Wolfgang Date: 16 May 04 - 11:09 AM Interesting link to an Arab site. In my eyes, it demonstrates once more what this five months old thread was about: A very Arab obsession Paranoia and wild imaginings can be comforting when faced with overwhelming state power and pure brute force....The question that must challenge the Arab world today is how to check this dangerous slide into paranoia and self-defeating religious bigotry. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: robomatic Date: 16 May 04 - 11:05 AM You know, still relatively soon after the event, it's foolish to jump in with confident statements such as implying that Berg was a profiteer, even saying he was stupid. I however am ready to believe he was an innocent guy in the wrong place. Is there proof of that? I don't know. In the incredibly mixed up world that is Iraq at present, the perpetrators could be a splinter group with a room, a videocamera, and access to an uplink. I believe several hard core Islamic fundy organizations went to the trouble of disavowing responsibility. I think most people come out of this thing with the same views they had going in, only more strident and less prone to compromise. It does not relate to the prisoner issue, which is entirely separate. The horror of it all is more than a really nasty beheading video. It's the situation wherein an innocent person is treated as a 'thing' to make suffer, and offered up as a video sacrifice, which makes us feel as we watch it horrified, sad, and somewhat guilty and defiled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: S O P Date: 16 May 04 - 10:56 AM di-van: Asserting Berg's father has proof of anything is a use of the word 'proof' I'm not familiar with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 16 May 04 - 10:55 AM Strollin'Johnny - No, I am not certain that the family is telling the truth. I am saying that with all the misinformation out there, I am following very closely, the actions of the family. It is the family who is most closely involved. I also believe that most parents would want justice if a child was murdered. They are the ones that have to 'come to terms' with the death of their son. Of course, they might be lying too, but I think that suggesting they might profit from their son's death is insensitive, to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 16 May 04 - 08:13 AM At least one news article referred to the killers as "Iraqi militants." I believe I linked to it earlier. Granted, that has come to be inaccurate since more news has come out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 16 May 04 - 02:05 AM Dianavan, the question of the thread title was dealt with right back in post no. 5! We're fed so much bullshit by all sides in this crock of crap I don't understand how you're able to make such positive judgments about who's lying and who isn't. You're right that the media tell whichever fairytale suits their owners/sponsors political persuasions, but why are you so certain that the family are telling it 100% the way it is? Won't they stand to benefit hugely financially if they can prove that US Goverment forces effectively sent the lad to a horrific death, rather than that he was an unfortunate fool who put himself in harm's way? NB - not saying the family are lying, or that Berg was a fool, I don't have enough (accurate) information to make a judgment. What I am saying is that this was a tragic and unforgivable event in a long catalogue of tragic and unforgivable events, that we're being subjected to propaganda from many many sources, and that truth has become indistinguishable from lie. Those of us who claim, very publically, to have a hotline to the truth may eventually find they too have been right royally hoodwinked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 15 May 04 - 05:55 PM Don - I am not attesting to the accuracy of any newspaper article. What I am saying is that it is not far-fetched to question the details of the murder of Berg. I linked the article because it neatly outlined my suspicions regarding the timing of this event. I also think it is important to understand the moderate Iraqi perspective. If we believe the U.S. version of the story, the murderer was a Jordanian not an Iraqi. I was disagreeing with the title of the post. Nobody has claimed that the murderer was Iraqi. As far as the detention of Berg, previous to his murder, it is Berg's father who has the proof that the U.S. did, in fact, detain him. The U.S. tried to lie about that saying it was the Iraqi police who detained him. In the end, the U.S. admitted that they had detained him for questioning. They only released him when the father threatened to sue for unlawful confinement. I'm not sure, but I think he will still sue the U.S. government, including Rumsfeld. At least thats the last I heard. At this point, I am more willing to follow the accounts of a father's quest for justice, more than anything the media wants us to believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,JTT Date: 15 May 04 - 05:47 PM Beheading someone with a butcher's knife. Alas. I suppose all of those men had mothers, all have consciences, and somewhere they're going to have to face what they've done. Dear God, what a thing to have to face in the dark of the night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: CarolC Date: 15 May 04 - 05:46 PM Blue clicky for dianavan's link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 15 May 04 - 05:46 PM Johnny, Thats a bit of an argue point too I guess. My schepticism lamp gets lit pretty easily these days. I trust what most factions say to have a glimmer of fact in them. About the only people I distrust out of hand is Bin Laden and his cronies and International Answer and their cronies. And even if there is a glimmer there, They, the universal they, subvert it to meet their own plan. I don't know who to trust to tell the truth so I guess I trust no one. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 15 May 04 - 05:07 PM I'm not sure about Dianavan's 'Fact' no. 1 either Don - has anyone confessed to being the individual who perpetrated the killing? We didn't see his face, and we could be being lied to again. Oh what a tangled web we weave............... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 15 May 04 - 04:43 PM Ebbie, I just this minute read the article in the Tehran Times. Diana, I guess this still begs my point. Why is this article anymore accurate or complete than one from The New York Times or The Christian Science Monitor. And I concur with you and have no doubts on facts 1 and 2. I'm not sure about 3 for reasons of the very question I am asking. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Ebbie Date: 15 May 04 - 04:34 PM Here's what I get: "Due to technical problems you can not see TehranTimes at the moment.Please try again later." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 15 May 04 - 04:06 PM Fact #1 - It was not an Iraqi who did the beheading Fact #2 - Berg's dad blames the Bush admin and Rumsfeld Fact #3 - The administration lied about detaining Nick Berg ...and for those of you who choose to continue the propaganda, scratch the surface and you will find much, much more. Read this and see if you still believe what the U.S. has to say about Nick Berg or anything else about what they're doing in Iraq. Forgive my clumsiness. I am just learning how to use the blue clicky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 15 May 04 - 03:19 PM Well, that's the other thing. The only real conclusions I've been able to make are: 1)Nick Berg is dead and 2) nobody seems to know exactly what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 May 04 - 02:24 PM The one thing that is clear from this whole war is that "the experts" are not very well informed either. Even when they are actually trying to tell the truth, they persistently get it wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 15 May 04 - 09:55 AM Don, that's always been my problem with the news. I don't know what to believe because there's too many different things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 15 May 04 - 07:39 AM "The crux of the mater" Jeepers is that Freudian? Will I ever spell czech? Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 15 May 04 - 05:44 AM Don, you beat me to it! Lots of 'expert' opinions in here, being made by non-experts who've taken their lead from whichever piece of political hyperbole and mileage-making rings their chimes. We're being fed crap daily - how do any of us know who's lying and who isn't? I certainly don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: S O P Date: 14 May 04 - 11:54 PM The one thing we all believe is the video. And the body. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 14 May 04 - 10:50 PM Dianavan, Here I am breaking into this mess again. Re: Safe passage, depending on who you choose to believe Brerg was offered safe passage but refused it. Others claim it was otherwise. I doubt any of us has anyway to know for sure. Everyone, And this is the crux of the mater for much of the right versus left, convervative versus liberal debates. Who do you believe when listening to news? Both sides spin it all over the place so I don't think either point of view is adequately informed and neither sides leaders or directors can lie straight in bed. And for a bunch of school teachers, students, Doctors, Moms and Dads, and every walk of life types in this forum we are a pretty remakable bunch of skilled political scientists who have all the facts at hand. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: CarolC Date: 14 May 04 - 10:41 PM S O P, in the case of Sudan, it has been clearly established that oil is a big part of the problem. There is a lot of conflict about who the beneficiaries of oil revenues should be, and a lot of people are being displaced from their homes so that oil can be drilled for in those locations. I haven't spent enough time looking into the Nigeria situation to be able to say if oil is connected in the same way, but it won't surprise me if it is. The religious issues are certainly a part of what is causing the violence, but in the case of Sudan, where the conflict is also between Muslims and Christians, oil is at least as much of the problem as religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 10:34 PM This story describes al-Zarqawi as a "senior Al-Qaida operative." 'Course it's from yesterday, so it's probably old news. Click here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 10:28 PM Apparently the Jordanian murderer has AQ associations. At least that's what I've understood from the news reports, which may or may not be accurate. I also read that Berg was offered a flight back to the US and refused. Again, that may or may not be accurate. Drudge has links to several stories regarding Berg's murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: S O P Date: 14 May 04 - 10:24 PM Isn't Nigeria where there was a series of riots and loss of life over a statement on the internet regarding Mohamed and the Miss World Pageant. Want to work that in with oil conspiracy? As far as the U.S. committing the Berg atrocity, some people will say anything, and there are some people who will believe it. How about that one about who was REALLY responsible for piloting two airliners into the Twin Towers, a third into the Pentagon, and a fourth into the ground? Who's it going to be this week? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 14 May 04 - 09:23 PM "The sad thing is that, while I don't actually think this was a put up job by agents of the US administration, I wouldn't actually be that astonished if it turned out it was. That's not anti-US bias, it's a recognition of the fact that dirty tricks can get quite remarkably dirty." Thanks. I too, do not actually believe it was set-up but I also believe that the admin. is putting their own spin on it. The murderer was a Jordanian not AQ. Why didn't the Americans give Berg safe passage and what was the connection between Berg and Moussaoui? I doubt if we will ever get the straight information on this and I also doubt if we will ever punish those responsible for the torture of Iraqi prisoners. Wasn't it Rumsfeld who in 2002 stated that these were not actually POWS and that the same rules did not apply? What kind of a message was that to give to the troops. He left it pretty wide open didn't he. The trouble with the Bush admin. is that they do not actually know their enemy. They chased Bin Laden (AQ) and bombed Afghanistan in the process. Then they decided to blame Saddam (not AQ) and bombed the Iraqis. Now I hear rumours about Syria being on their hit list. I have also read statements that the tribal differences in Iraq are less than the differences between Protestant and Catholics. Why is it that we are alway being told that U.S. has to be bring democracy to Iraq? The Iraqi people want the U.S. to go home. They are not interested in Christian missionaries either. A Jordanian terrorist beheaded a U.S. businessman who was there fair and square? I doubt it. I think people should consider all of the angles. There is nothing wrong with questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,petr Date: 14 May 04 - 08:11 PM cnn did report a bizarre connection with the unfortunate Berg and Moussaoui (the so-called 20th hijacker) apparently on a bus or something Moussaoui & Berg sat next to each other. And somehow Moussaoui and Berg shared the same password to some account. the action intended is to instill terror. (more than anything it backfired, as it takes attention away from the Abu Graib prisoner abuse. It certainly does little to promote their cause except perhaps with the most diehard islamic extremists. Even Hamas and Hizbollah condemn it. whatever you want to call the terrorists that murdered Berg, - they were undeniably cowards(why not take off the headgear?) and racists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Pogo Date: 14 May 04 - 07:49 PM " The murder of this young man was a calculated action intended to achieve certain effects. Quite what these effects are intended to be is uncertain. " Can't remember who said this. But I believe we've seen the effects it intended played out right in this thread. That's all... :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: CarolC Date: 14 May 04 - 07:20 PM Never boring, bengi. What's your point? Wolfgang, oddly enough, just a little while ago I was reading the following article from Reuters. I was thinking to myself as I read it, that it reminded me a bit of a thread someone posted sometime in the last few months about a similar sort of conflict in Sudan. In that thread, someone said the reason the US hasn't done anything to help is because there isn't any oil in Sudan. I thought that was worth checking out, and when I did, I discovered that Sudan does indeed have oil, and that the oil is a big part of the basis for the problems there. So after reading the article by Reuters about what's going on in Nigeria, I did a search and discovered that Nigeria is one of the world's leading oil producers. Is this a coincidence? I don't know. My gut says maybe not. Nigerian Muslims Recount Horror of Attack Excerpt: "YELWA, Nigeria (Reuters) - Hafsat Garba wept as she recounted how heavily armed Christian militiamen, stripped to the waist and wearing charms on their arms, invaded her home town. The 36-year-old mother of two was one of hundreds of Muslim women abducted by the warriors during a two-day assault on the central Nigerian town of Yelwa in which hundreds were killed." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 May 04 - 06:57 PM I agree with Nerd there, and that's why I think it unlikely that it's a put-up job - not because I think there could never be elements within the regime that might be capable of sinking to that level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 05:51 PM Fair enough, Nerd. Thanks for your enlightening post. I am at least a little less confused now. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 14 May 04 - 05:41 PM Like Big Mick, I think it's exceedingly unlikely the beheading was orchestrated by the US. Those who ordered it would need an operative who could convincingly be mistaken for a known Arab terrorist, who was willing to cut another man's head off with a knife, and whom they could trust to maintain complete secrecy about it afterward. Quite apart from how dirty they're willing to get, would they gamble their careers on such a person, if they didn't have to? This is quite a trick to be pulling out of their asses, and it could easily backfire on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: beardedbruce Date: 14 May 04 - 05:39 PM True, Wolfgang. IMO, the lack of action in Rwanda will be a greater shame to the Western powers than anything we do, or don't do in the Middle East. |
