Folk Club / Session Etiquette

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 19 May 12 - 03:30 PM

Best to assume that musicians and other singers want to join in. They've had a few beers, they're there for relaxed fun not a formal concert. That may mean some participants will be boorish, so best to be brief and clear from start about what you're going to do and what kind of participation you'd like. Actively inviting some very specific accompaniment (just 'drones' or 'drums' say) might be preferable to saying nowt and assuming the resident guitar hero won't want to spend the bulk of the song "discreetly" trying to figure out what key you're singing in..

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 May 12 - 03:24 PM

You should never have to - good manners should prevail if not artistic sensitivity.

This is a universal constant.

If one doesn't know the piece, just listen & enjoy (surely 70% of the reason for being there in the first place) then everyone's a winner.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:38 PM

"That's why I started playing spoons"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_11JDYcZX44
"This is all very well as long as you're quite prepared to politely tell someone what they are doing is unacceptable"
You should never have to - good manners should prevail if not artistic sensitivity.
"God's gift" sums these arrogant pricks in a simple phrase.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:10 PM

"Again, if somebody wishes to sing without accompaniment they should be prepared to state this before starting."
NO NO NO,people should not try and accompany a singer unless they ask the singer first.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:09 PM

With something like Mrs MacLeod, banging away in the right rhythm on A all the way through is a lot better than nothing.

You only learn what works by actually trying, and the Americana fanboys aren't willing to do that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:33 PM

Whilst agreeing with Joanne about etiquette being stated upfront, how can this be done at a session where people are coming and going at different times? A large unmissable notice perhaps?

Singarounds, just about everybody knows the etiquette, join in if invited, don't join in if not. Newcomers should soon pick up the situation and if not the organiser can easily slip in a general reminder when needed.

A 'session' is a session is a session, a free-for-all. Again, if somebody wishes to sing without accompaniment they should be prepared to state this before starting. Or perhaps bring a pitchpipe in a godforsaken key between two notes so nobody can pitch in with you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:24 PM

"From: Jack Campin - PM
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:46 AM

What will persuade me more than anything to never come back to a session/singaround is people NOT accompanying me.

Mostly I play Scottish traditional music, which is mostly dance music that was always intended to have an accompaniment. If you don't have a cello like Niel Gow expected, a guitar will do. But sitting there like a dumpling with a guitar propped up beside you and not even trying to figure out something to do with it while I'm playing a straightforward reel is just plain insulting. I get this from virtually all the local Americana fanboys, who have the whole chord sequences for American Pie and the complete works of Neil Young in their heads. And they can't even do Mrs Macleod? What's WRONG with you?"
jesus christ, this post beats everything, Jack would you prefer they joined in in the wrong key, or with the wrong chords, personally I am eternally grateful , if people who have never heard a tune before, do not join in, there is nothing worse than trying to play a tune and have some tone deaf idiot playing all the wrong chords

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:23 PM

As Keats said: one guitar at a time, and no bodhrans at all, that is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:19 PM

I remember doing a gig at Sharps Folk Club C#HOUSE back in the nineties,and while I was accompanying my singning on the concertina, another concertina player tried to join in, his chords were not compatible with mine, I was Flabbergasted, so this is not a new phenomenon

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:32 PM

I might like a glass of wine at a session - in the unlikely event of my ever going to one!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:26 PM

True words, Joanne - if I attend a new session, I'll either find out beforehand what the style is or have a quiet few minutes absorbing the "culture". I do tend to avoid the very "pure" sessions that take place, such as those where the tune and only the tune - played by everyone in unison - is ever required. I like to play guitar, and I've spent years accompanying musicians of all types, so a mixed bag of music - particularly with some improvisation from the company - is what suits me. If I do find myself at a rather "stricter" tunes session, then I reach for the mandolin... :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:24 PM

Many years ago (I estimate 1958), at one of the EFDSS monthly Sunday singarounds Peter Kennedy used to run, I remember the late Robin Hall trying to chip in on guitar as I was singing unaccompanied The Gaol Song, which was the way I liked to do it. I waved him down & he stopped. A few days later I met him again. "Ewan MacColl sings that song accompanied," he said accusingly, as if he had made some sort of knock-down point. I pointed out that if I wanted to do the same I'd have done it for myself, thank you.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: CupOfTea
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:55 AM

In my experience, the singarounds or sessions that have been the most enjoyable ones are when the day's etiquette/rules/customs of that group are stated up front, and renewed when latecomers are ready to plunge in. Of course it's not "cool" to do that - many would think everyone has ESP and knows how to behave, but when they don't, then what happens is aggravation. Without mentioning HOW it's going to work, it's much more likely it WON'T work.

What Will Fly said about the difference between a sing around and a session - that's his definition and interpretation of local etiquette. Some of the places I go vary from this considerably. Expecting a new singaround/session someplace else to work just like the one you're used to is one of those situations where it helps to have ESP or a very well developed sense of social niceties. Will likely has that, but unfortunately, folk music tends to attract a good number of people who DON'T have very good social skills, and without being told, are nearly guaranteed to blunder in a way that cuts into EVERYONES enjoyment of the time making music.

I've been the singaround victim m'self of a "professionalcuzIhavebandrecordings" guitarist who didn't "get" an acapella song. "But *I* can tell what the chords are!" sez he. ::: cue grinding of teeth:::: "IT"S ACAPELLA THERE ARE NO GUITAR CORDS!!!" I manage to get out without screaming too very loudly. I also stopped going to that session.

One of the things I find difficult is when one of *my* songs - something I've worked hard on having an arrangement for, and spent considerable time and love to polish- is done by someone else in a way that grates on my nerves. A classic of this is a band I otherwise enjoy considerably, but the male singers tend to shout/sing most songs, including "Grey Funnel Line," as if it were a shanty. It's their session, so I tamp down my aggravation and sing along or go get a beer. (and put on some Silly Sisters to clean out my head after...)

c\_/ cheers! Another chorus please!

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:46 AM

What will persuade me more than anything to never come back to a session/singaround is people NOT accompanying me.

Mostly I play Scottish traditional music, which is mostly dance music that was always intended to have an accompaniment. If you don't have a cello like Niel Gow expected, a guitar will do. But sitting there like a dumpling with a guitar propped up beside you and not even trying to figure out something to do with it while I'm playing a straightforward reel is just plain insulting. I get this from virtually all the local Americana fanboys, who have the whole chord sequences for American Pie and the complete works of Neil Young in their heads. And they can't even do Mrs Macleod? What's WRONG with you?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:48 AM

Keith - if that had been me, I'd have played my accordion in public as often as I wanted - after firmly telling the ceilidh band to collectively fuck off.

I enjoy a free-for-all as much as the next man, but Manners Makyth Man - and the Next Man.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:46 AM

And I forgot to say - if I happen to break into a song at a session, I always make spaces for the accompanying melody instruments to take a solo if they want to. In the style developed by Bob Wills of course. "Play away fiddles, play away!", etc.

It's all good fun, with the casual accompaniment of the till, orders at the bar, the buzz of conversation from the locals, someone breaking off from playing to greet an old acquaintance, people coming and going.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: selby
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:44 AM

Heres one that happened to me some 30 years ago I learnt to play accordion (not very well) to take the load of the only 2 floor singers our folk club had. Some people came from a ceilidh band and played a couple of tunes and sang a couple of songs. I was playing my little set told everyone what i was going to play and the ceilidh band joined in, excellent until i moved into the 3rd tune of my set and they played something completely different, that I didn't know then told me it was a better tune than the one I had learned. Did not play accordion again in public.
Keith

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:41 AM

I don't know what people expect from a session. There's a subtle difference between a session and a singaround - the latter being a gathering where people perform in turn, and the former being a general joining-in - and I think that everyone in the company should know which applies. If someone at a singaround invites everyone to join in, then it becomes a session for the moment. If someone at a session really doesn't want others to join in - which may be a perfectly reasonable wish - then I think that should be made clear before the start of the performance.

I don't thrash all the way through a session myself - it's actually good to stop and listen and relax and get a beer at points during the evening - but I make absolutely no objection to anyone joining in with me. If this means - like Tuesday just gone - that I get a snare drummer, a bohran player and a bones player accompanying me very loudly, well that's the name of the game! (It wasn't the greatest sound in the world to be honest, but it's what I expected from the evening).

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:41 AM

What's this about the free beer, Steve????

It seems to me that many instrumentalists don't understand us who sing unaccompanied. They play along uninvited, and attempt to correct our tempo and regularize our meter. Once you're singing a song, it's hard to stop and set restrictions on accompaniment and such. In our song circle, instrumentalists are asked to play only on their own songs, and when invited by the singer to play. Making a rule ahead of time, solves a lot of problems.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:30 AM

I've noticed, entirely unscientifically, that the more respectful and diffident the would-be joiner in is the better they are when they do join in. The buggers who think they're God's gift, get their feet under the table for the night, join in on everything whether they know it or not and drink the free beer are invariably rubbish.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:29 AM

Part of being a good musician is knowing when not to play, sadly a lot of people don't know this. some people just thrash away regardless, I remember someone singing ' Raglan Road ' and some twat banging away on his bodhran all the way through,, he did get told and has not been back.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Geoff
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:26 AM

This is all very well as long as you're quite prepared to politely tell someone what they are doing is unacceptable. Because otherwise, how else would new people know? If you're rude about it you're just propagating an unwelcoming atmosphere which will just make the tradition die out if left unchecked.

There's a balance to be had. Remember they're not doing it to piss you off but because they're enjoying your music and want to "help out", however misguided it might be!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:10 AM

That's why I started playing spoons. Youv'e no idea how fiddle and guitar players hate it when you accompany them, especialy on the slow tunes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: JHW
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:43 AM

Agree. One in particular of the singaround/sessions I go to had players that tended to this. My logic is that if I've tried to make my accompaniment interesting I'd rather folks heard it my way. Joiners in certainly won't hear my efforts and they'll deny real listeners the chance.
This may seem extreme but on one such occasion I stopped the song, put the guitar in the box and left (without fuss).
I happen to be pretty deaf in my right ear so can only just hear what I'm playing myself! I'm lost if someone else joins in.
The MC there now prefaces the evening with a reminder to all that if they wish folks to join in they should make that clear (and several do). If there is no such invitation then don't join in. Works fine.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:16 AM

Couldn't agree more - and would extend it to the 'Singalongamax'crowd who take it as a god-given right to join in with the singing, whether they know the singer's version or not.
An annual cull maybe!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,loki
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:09 AM

I think Mr Ashtray is quite right

Subject: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:00 AM

For sure we've been here before but last night I had cause to tell someone that their efforts to accompany me weren't necessary, causing a modicum of offence in the process.

Imagine that; some fecker stomps all over my song & they take offence when I tell them to stop.

But how hard is it? If you don't know a song, just listen to it. Just because you have guitar on your knee the entire night doesn't mean you're duty bound to join in with everything - like those singers who feel they must 'sing along' with other singers in order to show their appreciation of your efforts. Or witness bodhran players who feel the urge to bash along. Arrghhh!!!

Knowing is a good thing. Listening is also a good thing. Musical sensitivity and sophistication are good things too. It makes for great nights, just as great nights are ruined by clumsy attempts at joining in assuming that it's all good enough for folk when nothing could be further from the truth.

S O'P - Still smarting.