BS: Religion, which is the best one?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:12 PM

Of course I flatter myself Backwoodsman. No bugger else around here is going to. .

Back to the op etc. Whilst it is difficult to say which is the best religion, many of our contributors are showing us why Christianity isn't on any shortlist. With the exception of Joe Offer, who for his sins may be a good advert but Catholicism in general certainly isn't, the attack mode employed to ridicule anybody, even those being serious, who dares to challenge the moral authority of their cult is brutal, ugly and ultimately disturbing.

Don points out the difference between starting and responding. There is a third section. Prodding with a stick to get a reaction. Interestingly, I don't seem to have the monopoly on that approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:24 PM

""So why do the aetheists constantly find it necessary to insult and belittle the religious - "Your invisible friend", "We rational people", "Reject such mental aberrations",""

Are you saying, BW, that anyone who is being repeatedly attacked is not permitted to defend himself?

Because that is the situation here.

All but one of the recent threads has been started to attack non believers (I don't like the term Atheist, because it has been coined and used as a pejorative).

Only one has been started by a non believer.

If you are insulted, lied about and denigrated, are you not justified in returning like for like to those responsible?

You may choose not to do so, but if you do return insult for insult, surely the offender is the attacker, not the responder.

I am, though emphatically not a follower of any orghanised religion, not an Atheist.

I think that recent threads attacking Atheists are despicable and unjustifiable.

I have the greatest respect for those, like Joe Offer, who believe without proselytising. I have none for those who start an argument so that they may claim to be victimised by responses.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:04 PM

Sorry Grishka that you perceive I am "arguing" in some way (possibly,with you). For the first time. I am puzzled by the content one of your posts, that normally seem well thought out, clear and to the point.

Let me be clear:

As to my statements to pete, if that what you refer to - I was protesting his characterization of a group of people - that seemed "off the mark.

If it was my statements to your reference to "church members" and morality issues, I clearly stated that there are too many "confounding" issues to accept one piece of research (that you referred to) at face value.

My last post was mostly a piece of personal reflection (a story, if you will) and hardly was representative of a broad experience in many global societies.

Regardless, I believe I made my objection-point to pete - which he seemed to somewhat clarify (in a manner). So, that matter is in the past, with me, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:48 PM

Ed, I do not understand what you want to arguing for, but your arguments may actually support the very opposite. Think of it.

Pete, now you are much closer to the nature of morality than you were before. Notice the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 01:48 PM

totally agree, ed, with your families estimation of the church they attended. I wonder what they did with james 2 v 1-9 if it was preached.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:23 PM

yes musket, it was a genuine mistake and I apologize for not going back over the posts to check.

ed- I would say that the source of ones morality - influences in childhood - is not quite the same as the logical reasoning as to why to choose a moral path.
my thinking is that because we are all made in Gods image , there is a sense of morality , generally. in all people ,regardless of their affirmation or dismissal of God.
the atheist will of course reject such a concept, but can they logically anchor their morality on anything other than prior conditioning?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM

A good perspective Backwoodsman.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM

Musket, you flatter yourself if you believe the "imaginary friend" taunt is your personal possession - over the years there have been many who have used it on here, check out all the old threads.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with anyone else's beliefs, and I feel no need to insult or belittle those whose beliefs are different to mine. It's a big old world, and there's plenty of room for all viewpoints, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:29 AM

""Ed, in Austria (and in other countries), churches have formal membership structures - was that the question? The testees had filled in a form, also asking for income etc. Since it was all anonymous, some may have lied, but could not possibly have had any advantage from it.""

Grishka:
No, that was not my point - it was more that that church membership (or attending church services) has less to do with determining a religious belief today, than it did in earlier years. This relates to pete-7*s earlier claim that there is a direct relationship between a tendency to lie - among those with a belief in a god versus those no such belief.

In the country I live in and the church I attended as a child, there was a registry used mostly for church income generation purposes. What you gave was published each year. Most of the rich families, who could afford large donations were eager to have their names posted. The majority of the low income people rarely wanted to see their smaller donations listed. (BTW, the church also sold pews at the front of the church, where the more well-to-do folks proudly sat - my family were contented to stand at the back, with the less deserving folks. My family could have paid to buy a front seat. But, my parents found the practice excessive and offensive).

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 10:52 AM

Ed, I heard about the study on radio (I think BBC), and it was referred to as university research on human behaviour. I suspect you misinterpret the point I mentioned, and the ideas behind my message. The emphasis is on the word slightly, so we may conclude that religion has something to do with honesty in daily behaviour, but much less and less directly than many think.

Buddhism is definitely a religion in Pete's sense of postulating a supernatural instance of responsibility. I do not know whether any of the few Austrian Buddhists were included in that research, which had quite a different purpose from testing religions. I would take the onus of searching for traces on the Internet if I had any hope for a serious discussion here on BS.—

Speaking of honesty: when Joe wrote To me, honesty is far more important than "truth.", he obviously meant a claim of truth by a religious doctrine. The word "truth" has changed its meaning since the 16th century, and should now only be used in contexts like criminal investigations. Joe's statements also seem to imply that he, like myself, denies religion any say on the results of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 10:43 AM

And the clincher......We used to consider it morally acceptable (in fact, a moral imperative) to send armies out to other countries for the express purpose of murdering non Christians.

Not true.
Are you thinking of the Crusades.
Mores were quite different in Medieval times, and it is not at all fair to call them "we."
And even so, "murdering non Christians" was never an objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:11 AM

I suspect that there are so many confounding factors, unless research was carefully structured by an unbiased source, it would not mean much- but reinforce people with an unrerlated agenda. For example. I have experienced very honest Buddhist people and it is not defined by many as a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 08:36 AM

As everyone knows, the "best" religion is the one that best accords with their understanding of the world besides giving them the best deal when they're dead. Within those reasoned parameters, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

Ed, in Austria (and in other countries), churches have formal membership structures - was that the question? The testees had filled in a form, also asking for income etc. Since it was all anonymous, some may have lied, but could not possibly have had any advantage from it.

As I wrote, a lot of experimental research is going on. I cannot claim to be an expert, but I have the strong impression that most of the commonly held ideas about moral behaviour have been falsified experimentally. It starts with the question "What is moral behaviour?" Most of us tend to give an easy answer, but the harder we think about it, the less we "know". The Bible or Kant or other classical moralists are not specific enough by far for, say, a "Martian" to understand it properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM

"Church members" is an an odd term for a research study to use? I wonder what they determined it to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:34 AM

Not "the atheists" Backwoodsman, just me. And I'm not even an atheist. I'm the one who keeps saying imaginary friend if you check. I'm the one who uses the term rational as opposed to religious.

You will also note I dismiss religion as superstition.

Yet I'm not an atheist.

Rather strange? Only to those whose comfort blanket (you missed that one) is blocking their ears and eyes.

No matter what nice things you can say about religion, it isn't rational to apply ancient stories to physically describe either gaps or alternatives to science. As the god concept is to use your imagination and find comfort in that, imaginary friend isn't such a big deal.

But atheist is a word cooked up by religious people as a term of contempt for rational people. It means without theological belonging. It means you are not a member of the club.

Well, I've been thrown out of far nicer clubs, far more respectable ones and certainly far more exclusive ones. Most of them don't allow you in wearing jeans. The religious clubs prefer you if you are desperate or vulnerable if you notice.

I believe the term to be salvation.

Apparently, shaking your head smiling at our pious friends is militant atheism.

No. Militant atheism requires a few timber poles, cross members, ladders and hammer and nails. I just prefer to marvel at sanctimonious hypocrisy. Nobody gets hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:03 AM

"So don't keep trying, in your customary disingenuous fashion, to claim a moral high ground for the religious, which simply does not exist."

Correct Don. The religious, in general, are no more 'moral' than the non-religious, IME.

So why do the aetheists constantly find it necessary to insult and belittle the religious - "Your invisible friend", "We rational people", "Reject such mental aberrations", et al. It may surprise some of our resident religion-slaggers to learn that the majority of people of faith are perfectly mentally stable, have had very successful and well paid careers, and some are even good guitar-players and singers (much better than some of the rabid aetheists I've come into contact with!) :-)

Beliefs that differ from one's own do not a lunatic make.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:30 AM

First posted onthe miltant Atheist thread, but apposite in relation to this one also:-

""Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

""musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?""

I do hate to see anyone entering into serious debate without even the most basic equipment.

All morality is variable Pete. It always has been and it always will be.

Morality is definable as what a society finds acceptable in the circumstances pertaining at any given time.

We used to consider it morally acceptable to marry girls as young as twelve years old, in ceremonies presided over by Christian priests. Now we don't!

We used to consider it morally acceptable to hang criminals for a whole variety of crimes, with a priest in attendance. Now we don't!

In other countries both practises are still considered moraly acceptable.

And the clincher......We used to consider it morally acceptable (in fact, a moral imperative) to send armies out to other countries for the express purpose of murdering non Christians.

NOW WE DON'T!

The most important point about this is that all these activities were considered morally acceptable, not just by God fosaken Atheists, but by Christians also, many of whom were excessively enthusiastic about the third example.

So don't keep trying, in your customary disingenuous fashion, to claim a moral high ground for the religious, which simply does not exist.""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

Actually there is a lot of experimental research being done on honesty and other aspects of social behaviour. I read about such experiments done in Vienna; one of the results was that those testees who anonymously stated that they were church members behaved slightly more honestly in the test than the others, on average.

As I wrote before, the relation between ethics and religion is much more complex than Pete and others may think. Another misconception, suggested by the thread title, is that religion is about distinct religions that come from "founders". A question "Language, which is the best one?" would be similarly unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 08:15 PM

Ok. Here's the deal pete. I have never lied to a school to get my children in and I have repeatedly said I support those that do. You read that as I had done that dastardly evil deed myself.

Are you genuinely mistaken or are you now lying in order to make your argument more convincing?

If you use your Bible as a guide to your moral outlook then your morality must be as variable as anybody else's, considering the inconsistent nature of the tales contained in it.

Meanwhile, we rational people must be raving hedonists with no anchor for our boats eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:43 PM

Pete, I suspect the concept of right oe wrong is instilled in all of us as children, by our parents, siblings,friends, school and community. Institutions like religion may have been a factor in many cases in earlier years- but less so in the west more recently.

Personally, I do not see a reasonable relationship between a belief in religion, a lack of on and "doing the right thing" (whatever that is defined as being in various situations.I hardly think using an example of one person on mudcat is a good or reliable sample to base a conclusion on.

I would like to see some evidence (research) to back up your statement?Or, is it only "a hunch" from the position you sit?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

ok ed- my contention is not that atheists are usually, or of necessity , liars , or immoral, dishonest, or anything else that might be considered "wrong", but that they have no ultimate authority for doing the "right" thing.
if there is no ultimate lawgiver, who is to say what is right and wrong?.
musket has freely admitted lieing to a school to gain an admission ,and why should he not?. he only has to justify it to himself, if no one calls him to account. that indeed was the context of my previous post.

neither am I claiming that as Christians we always do the right thing, but we do know who we are ultimately accountable to.


joe- I am sure that you know that a number of harmonies of the gospels have been written. i have one called "the life of Christ in stereo" had all 4 been too closely aligned , critics would be crying collusion .
this is not to say that there are not writing conventions of the time that selected material for teaching purposes- the 3+14 geneologies of matthew come to mind- and such things may appear contradictory to the modern western critic.
but how about responses to my questions?
is there any reason, apart from a-priori assumptions, why God should not get the first day off without creating the sun first.
He after all is the source of light and life, not the sun, which he would create, and some ancients erroneously credited as a god.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 02:09 PM

Don ~~ We all know about Abraham & Moses & Jesus being revered prophets to Islam, and the Jews & Christians being fellow "People of the Book". So I wonder why actual Muslim practice has always run so counter to what would appear to be the actual and intended implications of these particular teachings of the Prophet? Or why the Prophet so emphatically enjoined the destruction of these People elsewhere in his works?...

As a BTW: inconsistencies in the Judeo-Christian Bible & other holy books can be written off as due to multiple authorship over an extended period. That won't do as a theory with regard to Islamic teachings, will it? It is all the Prophet's work, eh?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 12:00 PM

So, for you, there's a conflict of truth & honesty?

Sometimes, not always. A lot of people think telling a lie is the opposite of telling the truth - indeed there's a UK TV show that makes that assumption. But, as I think it was Aquinas averred, a lie is the intention to deceive, and therefore not strictly dependent on whether what is said is true or false. Hence the famous statement that a minister was being 'economical with the truth' is lying, since the intent was to deceive. Similarly, if I ring you up and say one of your loved ones is in hospital after an accident, and I am intending to deceive you, I am lying, even if, unbeknown to me it happens to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 11:02 AM

""Take the teachings of Muhammud. Every Christian is bound - by the teachings of the bible - to view Muhammud as a "false prophet"!
Likewise, Muslims don't believe Jesus was the son of god!""

You've put your finger, inadvertently, I'm sure, on one of the most important differences betwen Christianity and Islam.

Islam does not regard Jesus as the Son of God, but it does regard him as a genuine prophet. By the same token, it does not portray Muhammed as a divine being, but simply as a prophet.

Islam is not institutionally inimical to Christianity, referring to Christians as ""People of the book"""".

The pity of it is that the reverse is not true. Christianity is inherently anti Islam and a large proportion of the history of Islam is one of pesecution by Christians.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:43 AM

Ah, former enemies getting in bed together!
I think we have them on the run!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM

So tell me, Tunesmith, why are Christians bound to view Muhammad as a "false prophet"? And why can't even a "false prophet" have wisdom to impart? Millions of people have followed his teachings for well over a thousand years. Guess there must be something to what he has to say, huh? If nothing else, reading the Holy Qur'an with an open mind can help us understand and respect a huge portion of the world's population. I've read parts of it, particularly those parts that are purported to require violence - to see the Qur'an as a call to violence, takes a fundamentalist point of view.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 09:16 AM

It really is a laugh!
I was glancing through a book on Islam beliefs and the writer said that the references in Islam teachings to the killing of homosexuals is of dubious origin!
What a laugh!
Every "religious" book is of dubious origin! Very dubious, indeed!
Take the teachings of Muhammud. Every Christian is bound - by the teachings of the bible - to view Muhammud as a "false prophet"!
Likewise, Muslims don't believe Jesus was the son of god!
Dubious, dubious, DUBIOUS!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

So, for you, there's a conflict of truth & honesty?

I'd appreciate further clarification

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:17 AM

I'd agree with Joe, Mr H. "Truth" is, as they say, rarely plain and never simple. Even in the sciences, "truth" is always provisional, and in mathematics it is simply self-consistency, not some absolute. Honesty, on the other hand, while clearly only about a single individual (or more precisely about the relationship between speaker and listener), can have an 'absolute' quality that "truth" can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

'honesty is far more important than "truth."'???

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 02:58 AM

He has my vote.
Is that how it is done?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:56 PM

For his can do spirit, rational thought and progressive attitudes, I believe Joe Offer would make an excellent Pope, as good if not better than the current progressive Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:36 PM

Paul Burke, why should I have to defend my religious faith to you? You push your nonbelief on me like you were a Jehovah's Witness on my doorstep. All I can say, is that it works for me, and it brings joy and richness to my life. If it's a delusion, what the hell? It's healthier than drugs. I am fascinated not only by my own Catholic tradition, but also by Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, and various Protestant traditions. I find them to be rich, interesting, colorful, and full of both wisdom and foibles. Whether they are truth or not, is something you can argue with Pete. To my mind, "truth" is highly overrated, and smacks of ideological narcissism. To me, honesty is far more important than "truth."

Michael, it seems to me that there is a certain pitiable futility in looking for Noah's ark on Mount Ararat and seeking archaeological evidence that the Hebrews were in Egypt and that all those plagues really did happen. And from what I can see, such quests lack intellectual honesty, since the seekers cannot conceive that what they seek to prove might not be factual. Not that I'm about to stop them. It's good for the economy of Egypt and wherever Mount Ararat is (Turkey, right?).

Pete, how do you explain all the discrepancies among the four evangelists? My explanation: they weren't writing for historical accuracy. They were writing to convey their own experience of Jesus Christ, and every relationship is different.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:27 PM

Plagues eh? Reminds me of The Two Ronnies sketch when Ronnie Barker said that a plague of locusts has collided with a load of frogs coming in the other direction. Police are appealing for Jehovas Witnesses.

Having been spending the last two days being dragged around Buddhist temples here in Bangkok I have been picking up on how local guides and others explain their beliefs to we tourists.

I particularly picked up on various people pointing out statues of Buddha sitting on a serpent. They all without exception have called it a mythical serpent. Not a real one, not an extinct one but a mythical one. When looking at wall paintings about the life of Buddha people have spoke of "stories attributed" where unrealistic claims of fantasy were required.

Reminds me of the Maori guides in New Zealand who prefaced most of their speeches with "we traditionally believe. .."

Both seem more refreshing than "truth" a word used by the Christian faith far too regularly for many intelligent people to be taken in by. As I said many times on these threads, the Joe Offer model may be one many non believers could be comfortable with, but it is a small faction in a relentless jealous cult.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM

"You can waste your time and money looking for Noah's ark on Mount Ararat and seeking archaeological evidence that the Hebrews were in Egypt and that all those plagues really did happen, or you can spend your time looking deeper into the Bible for its meaning."
.,,.
Just out of interest, Joe: why "or"? Who made the rule you can't do both?

~M~

Devil's advocating, of course; since, as no sort of believer, I don't have a dog running in this particular race. It's just that part of my 'legendary pedantry' has the effect of my going all sort of pins'n'needles-y at an illogicality, only curable by my pointing it out. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 05:06 PM

it brings an experience of serenity and peace and a feeling of unity with the One

I think you should perhaps reflect whether your feeling of "unity with the One" is not perhaps self delusion. Your feelings can be mistaken; and how on Earth do you know that other people, with a feeling of unity with their God as sure as yours but an opposite conclusion as to action, can therefore not have had an experience as moving for them as your own?

I'd suggest that people should have the courage to reject such mental aberrations.

It's an abandonment of self or the apotheosis of self esteem?

Subject: RE: BS: Religon, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:08 PM

OK Pete, exlain?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:45 PM

ed- you are entitled to your opinion, but if you would like to discuss what I posted ,as maybe you read more into it than was there, that would be good.
if , however you just wanted to sound your objection and leave it there, that's your prerogative.   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:16 PM

joe, I hear what you are saying , but I don't see a contradiction between the NT writing for meaning being inconsistent with being factual. luke for example gave the historical context at the beginning of his account. you may know btw, that critics used to say that was inaccurate, till archaeology confirmed its veracity.
jesus said " if I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" similarly if we cant trust the bible as factual, why trust its moral and spiritual message?
day and night before the sun? hardly difficult.
all that is required is a a source of light and a rotating earth.
do you think that would be a problem to God , joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 05:42 AM

Actually, where I live the faith schools are no better than the secular schools. Even if they were, I wouldn't support them as I want my son to be able to make his own mind up about religion rather than being brought up in one regardless. Personally, I don't accept the notion of god, but I won't and can't force that on him, though I will discuss it if he asks. Meanwhile, it beggars belief that the state (via our taxes) pays for faith-based education when the majority of people do not subscribe to any particular faith. And if your nearest local state school has a selective faith-based admissions policy, who can blame those parents who lie in order to access it for their children? After all, they are paying for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:24 AM

Paul Burke,
I, also, have a very low opinion of that arsehole screaming at the cripple to believe and be healed, that shitbag machinegunning children for the glory of God, those black garbed women humiliating and torturing girls for the service of Mary, the holy jailers dragging tortured dissidents to the fire while the surplice- clad chanters looked on. I abhor that kind of conduct, and I have never done any of those things. Don't ask me to defend them or to identify myself with them.

All I said is that I've practiced my religion all my life, and it's good for me. If that's what I do and I'm a decent person who makes a good contribution to society, then leave me alone - and don't include me in your generalizations. I'm not trying to recruit you or preach to you.

This experience of God I've spoken of, is what the Buddhists call Nirvana and the mystics call ecstasy. It's an abandonment of self and a focus on the Other, and it brings an experience of serenity and peace and a feeling of unity with the One. I'll bet "that shitbag machinegunning children for the glory of God" hasn't experienced that. Peace and serenity do not seem to be part of the sort of religion that you and I despise.

---

pete from seven stars link, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I am not denigrating Scripture in any way. The so-called "factual" aspect of the Bible really doesn't matter. If we find out some day that God really did create the world in seven days, what difference would it make? Yes, it would prove you and other fundamentalists right and boost your ego and maybe get a born-again Republican in the White House, but what value is that? What's important is the message, that God has been involved with this world since its very beginning, and that "God saw that it was good." [Note: NOT depraved].

You can waste your time and money looking for Noah's ark on Mount Ararat and seeking archaeological evidence that the Hebrews were in Egypt and that all those plagues really did happen, or you can spend your time looking deeper into the Bible for its meaning.

My view of scripture is taught in most Catholic, Episcopalian/Anglican, Congregationalist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian seminaries. Only the born-again "bible colleges" teach your fundamentalist point of view. In those other seminaries, the name "Scofield" receives no respect, and KJV is obsolete.

If you'd like to see another perspective, I'd suggest William Barclay's Daily Study Bible, a classic biblical commentary that's written for all to understand. Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible is another good one.

How do you tell which parts of the Bible are written in mythical or allegorical language? Well, most of it is. Only the unimportant parts are historically accurate. The New Testament is closer to history, but even then the Gospel writers are writing primarily for meaning, not for exacting historical accuracy. If you don't accept this description of the style of writing of the scripture writers, then you have to do a silly dance around the facts to try to explain all the inconsistencies. There's an easy answer: the scripture writers didn't care about being consistent and accurate, because that wasn't their purpose. They had a message to convey, a message that was of vital importance to them.

Is it more important to love God and neighbor, or to prove that Noah had an ark? Oh, and how is it that God created light and darkness on the first day and didn't get around to creating the sun and the moon until the fourth day? And how could there be evening, morning, and even days before there was a sun and moon?

My answer is to read these things as beautiful, poetic stories that help me approach the wonder of God. I need poetry to take me to God - prose and historical "facts" just won't do the trick.

I don't dwell on the theoretical or intellectual stuff when I teach Bible studies, and I do my best to bridge the gaps between liberals and conservatives. I insist that my students "respect the integrity of the story" and that they not over-intellectualize. I teach them to seek the meaning of the passage, and not to get bogged down in arguing about fine points. Studying scripture is not about proving the other guy wrong. It's about opening yourself to the message of what you're reading.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:33 PM

Ooh... Those atheists, they don't half lie! Not like those nice Christians eh?

After all, nobody has said they are a Christian when they don't believe in all that fairy tale nonsense have they?

Better a sanctimonious hypocrite than a honest liar I suppose?

Luckily, my lads went to a school that didn't have any religion built in other than studying it in abstract. So... Contrary to the spin and bullshit Keith has just put out, I have never said I'm a Christian when I'm not in order to get into the school of choice for my children.

But I would.

And I totally support the thousands who do.

After all, the Church of England claim there are so many Christians despite church attendance suggesting otherwise, lying about being Christian seems to start at the top, and when in Rome.......



pete. Ever thought it is all "allegory?" Just a thought. If lying is something Christians don't do mate, your club is smaller than I thought. Do you tell kids creationist nonsense? After all, that's all lies.....

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Big Phil
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:51 PM

Religion, which is the best one?

In a word - none. They are all a pain in the arras.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:43 PM

""it is hardly any surprise if an atheist lies ,keith, though probably many don't make a practise of it. they have no ultimate authority ,after all, do they.if Christians are liars they are inconsistent with their faith.""


What a pile of broad, inconsiderate rude, illogical and condescending BS that statement is! I am embarrassed that a (so called) Christian "good person" would put that pile of crap (figuratively posting) forward. I ask that Atheists, (no, I am not in this group) see it that it as merely "one persons" skewed opinion (a Christian gone astray, may I speculate), and is not a view reflective of the all in the Christian faith's opinion of Atheists and non-Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM

it is hardly any surprise if an atheist lies ,keith, though probably many don't make a practise of it. they have no ultimate authority ,after all, do they.
if Christians are liars they are inconsistent with their faith.

oh joe, so how do you decide what is allergory and myth among the narratives in scripture. obviously there are many scholars who see no reason to denigrate the historical narratives as being mythological . seems to me it is the starting propositions that guide the theologian. which of the church fathers saw millennia in gen 1 ,or dismissed the miraculous elsewhere as fable?.
and do you think the first followers of the way gave their lives for a myth?
as to tax payers,-there will be a lot of them in your country that are unhappy about paying to have their kids taught evolution myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM

if this were a multiple choice question, my answer must be "none of the above".

what is your defnition of "best"? Best at putting power into the hands of a select few who control access to "god(s)? Or best at dividing people into Them vs. Us? Or best at practicing hypocrisy?

Religions are under no constraint to promote the betterment of mankind and/or the planet, or to practice what they preach if the original founders had that in mind at the beginning. And most folks prefer the religious belief system that they grew up in and feel comfortable with... imho, based on my experience with religion and the folks who practice it.

And then there are those for whom religion is uncomfortable at best and find they are quite content without it. And also darn sick & tired of having to deal with those who feel it is their mission to "save" us from our ill chosen path. Then it would be really nice to believe in hell so we could consign them to it. But.. no such luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:19 PM

The best religion is, of course, π-ety, of which religion I am Pope.

Joe: playing the good guy/ bad guy thing again, I'm afraid. Yes, you have probably had deep experiences, which you believe informs your attitude to other human beings, and you attribute to God. But that arsehole screaming at the cripple to believe and be healed, that shitbag machinegunning children for the glory of God, those black garbed women humiliating and torturing girls for the service of Mary, the holy jailers dragging tortured dissidents to the fire while the surplice- clad chanters looked on... all these would have claimed exactly the same motivation for their actions. I put it to you that your social beliefs would have been much the same had you been of any other religion or none at all, and so would theirs, and you can't tell from the evidence whether the "true" God is theirs or yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 01:13 PM

Faith schools consistently do better here, which is why atheists like Musket are willing to make liars of themselves and their kids to get in, depriving deserving kids of their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Claire M
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hiya,

In answer to your q, Joe; yes! 1 man hung on my chair insisting that I'd be healed, & it took my friend shouting that I wasn't interested to get him to go away.

1 was a carer; he was v good @ his job but he told me my disability was God's choice more than once.

When younger, I went to various youth clubs that I didn't realise were religious until long after I'd left them. I went w/ another disabled girl. There was a shocking lack of things for either of us to do then.