why well run folk clubs are important

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Peter Stockport
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:53 PM

Ha! I've heard those comments from guest Elaine so many times!

I've got to say you're so wrong.
.
Anyone who sings or performs good folky material with ability, skill and confidence will get bookings. Somewhere.

If you don't get bookings then read the paragraph above again.


Peter

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:45 PM

Thankyou JIM. I agree with you, People should be encouraged to improve, mistakes are acceptable if you learn from them.
   Countess;[you should never sing or play out till you can]Ihave seen, even martin carthy make mistakes[ but no one would prevent him from singing his next song].The point is how you handle your mistakes, that is also the art of performance, and that is what aspiring performers should be noting, not to be embarrased,and not to make their audience embarrassed.
Elvis presley once forgOt the words to Are you lonesome tonight[ he laughed and said I must have sung this thousands of time] he handled it in a professional manner, NO ONE WAS EMBARRASSED.
Ina well run club[countess to make your point relevant ]if a newbie singer gets up and flops, what a good mc will do is put either his resident group on, or a strong, experienced ,reliable singer to follow which brings the evening up again . one of the best mcs I have encountered is clive pownceby WHO is associated with the Bothy folk club which has run for 42 years[ logically must be awell run club].what we should be looking at, is what are the ingredients of these long running clubs that are clearly well run.DickMiles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM

You never tell people they're no good, you encourage them to improve, and the only way they'll improve is work - practice, call it what you will. If they practice and don't improve, then you help them; if they still don't improve they have a problem, but it's their problem, not yours, and certainly should never be your audiences'.
When veteran singer and musician Packie Byrne found he could no longer sing he polished up his storytelling technique - last time I saw him he was still going strong. It's a little like the Monty Python sketch about the one-legged actor applying for the role of Tarzan - perhaps that's not what they are best suited to.
I think the most outrageously reactionary statement I have ever heard about singing is that we should hold back our better singers for fear of upsetting the mediocre ones - Jay-sus - talk about roll over Beethoven!
As for technique versus involvement; MacColl summed it up perfectly for me in an interview:
"Any art form, whether traditional music, painting, or whatever, must provide a challenge for the people who work in it, otherwise it dies." "The main objective for the singer is to create a situation that when he or she starts to sing, he or she is no longer worried about technique; they have done all that and can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself; to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Jim Carroll
PS countess - I'm afraid he wasn't being ironical

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:36 AM

Just becuase somebody is a performer, that doesn't give them the right to play at a club.
Very often, the organiser has to put on who they beleive will entertain their audience.
I don't think CD's always sell a performer. I think you have to see them live to see if they have the charisma as well. I have listened to a lot of Cd's and generally the style of the performer does not suit the style of my club. However if they are in my area, I make an effort to get to see them. There are a number of people who I have gone on to book, when having listend to their CD it did nothimng for me.
What amazes me, is that so many people say that a performer is crap, when in actual fact they are not, but obviously do not suit their style.
I have seen a lot of performers who I personally do not like and wouldn't book them for my club, but I can say in all cases they are very good performers, but do not feel they will suit the style of the club.
Likewise there are some performers who I would like top get, but in all honesty cannot afford them. I do not work and in all honesty cannot take on the risk of any loss personnally.
I pay a fixed rate and do not do percentage. That way I know what I have to recover and the performer doesn't get hurt if there aren't enough people at the gig.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Elaine
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 10:44 AM

And I'd also add that judgements are frequently made without regard to quality, if, indeed, we're finished with being empowered by our own sense of self satisfaction.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Elaine
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 10:37 AM

Novelty is an important element in any kind of change for the better, so the concept of a well-run folk club is important primarily because it is so novel, as there aren't any.

Those who run folk clubs become the enemies of performers. They don't start out that way, but after they get comfortable with who they will accept and who is 'not on the list' every other demo CD or performer just goes on the "throw them on the pile' category.

In fact, most people who start folk clubs or record labels start out with the best of intentions and end up being as exclusionary as the rest of the music business.

You know it's true.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 10:20 AM

Oh, and all power to Jim Carroll for restating in public what I usually get kicked for saying. You should never sing/play out till you can. 'Caring deeply about the music' entails not disrespecting it by doing so, or letting loose in public anyone who isn't ready to perform. The 'f*lk club'; is not a rehearsal room, or shouldn't be. The only out-of-tune (moi?)/hesitant rendition I'll listen to is myself in the shower, learning to get it right before anyone else hears it. Of course 'certain standards' should be demanded. Alex Campbell was practising self-irony (I think . . . possibly . . . )

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:37 AM

Further to Jim Carroll's post, I would have to make one personal observation. For me it is not technical competence that makes an enjoyable performance, but rather the interpretation of the song. I would rather listen to an out of tune/hesitant rendition by someone who cares deeply about their song and who has taken the trouble to think about it and can inspire me to see even an old favourite from a new angle, than the owner of a beautiful voice picking a song simply because it enables shows them off. In a professional I would hope to see both comptenance AND insight (but still favour the second over the first!) but in the amateur participants of a folk club I would hope I could appreciate whatever people bring to a performance without demanding a certain 'standard'. After all it takes courage and commitment to do ANY floorspot - more so than many people can manage. Just a personal thought.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Cathie
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:32 AM

Hear hear Richard. I thought I was maybe feeling too touchy at Jim's post last night to comment.

from Cathy

New to folk, learning guitar, closet teacher from St Albans, female, fat and over forty five. Keen, but can't grow a beard. My own kids have had eyes opened to 'folk scene' and spread positive words.

Oh yes - and if I have sung at local clubs including 'Windward', nobody has asked for a refund.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:05 AM

At a momentary loss for something better to do, I was re-reading this thread (a practice to be commended to the myopic and blinkered), when my eyes fell upon some particularly nasty (not to mention ridiculous) comments from a bad-tempered professional Northerner - NB I know perfectly well who this person is and I come from further north than him), aimed at the Bard of Barking. Now Mr William Bloke would have made it easily on his own without any help from the so-called 'f*lk community'. But to suggest that he has 'never featured in the North' suggests a level of awareness below that of a reservoir in high summer. Did someone manage to sleep through the duration of the miners' strike and miss entirely the presence of Red Wedge? This was when B Bragg encountered the music of Leon Rosselson and Ewan MacColl and went on, subsequently, to perform with Carthys senior and junior. He even remarked recently that he was getting into Morris tunes. Talk to him and you'll discover in him a far greater awareness of the relevance of tradarts to people's lives than from any of the 'anything's good enough for f*lk just bash it out regardless of key or timing' brigade.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:45 AM

with some people, its the only practice they get. god knows we've all done gigs where we haven't practiced enough.

if you've never done a crap performance, you just lack self awareness.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:06 AM

Anus Horribilus!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:23 AM

If you spend your time telling people that they are not good enough, they will go away. That's how prog-rock eventually disappeared up its own arse.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

Interesting refrence to choirs earlier. In Penkhull, where I live, there is no folk club. But there is a pub session now and then, of a "good standard" I would say(following the Jim Carroll line in a recent post). And once a weeek in the church hall there is is a sort of community choir, or open-access group of singers, who practise harmony singing of old carols etc. Folk clubs are definitely not the only places to nurture traditional performance.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:16 PM

It seems to me as an observer of this discussion/cum brawl that one of the main requirements for the running of a good club has been either ignored, or at best sidelined, namely, good, committed, competent singing.
Since that night all those years ago I watched Alex Campbell stagger onto a Manchester stage, fumble for his guitar, struggle unsuccessfully to tune it and slur those immortal words "near enough for folk song", I have believed that the club scene has been blighted with the idea that standards are not necessary for the singing traditional songs.
This attitude was echoed perfectly in an earlier posting from Georgiansilver. With respect, we have no idea how these songs were sung in the tradition because, by and large, nobody ever asked the singers. We caught the tradition at the tail end, when most of the traditional singers were either dead or of an advanced age and past their prime as singers, many of them not having sung their songs for forty, fifty, or more years. If anybody wishes to base their assessment on traditional singing on this situation they are very welcome to; it's not my idea of the standards required for the handling of something as beautiful, important and complex as traditional song. For me, it displays disrespect towards the songs and contempt for the people who made them, preserved them and passed them on to us.
I am never sure about singarounds and would tend to visit them and judge them on the general standard of the participants – if the were all (or nearly all) crap I wouldn't go back.
Clubs proper, with a resident and guest policy, I believe, have a duty to both the music and to the punter who pays at the door (or puts money into a hat), to present their songs and singers at a high enough standard to be both enjoyable and understandable. It is up to organisers to ascertain that the singing never falls below an acceptable standard.
It lies within the abilities of all of us, with very few exceptions, to raise our singing abilities to an acceptable level of performance – as long as people are prepared to put the work in. If they are not, I would rather they stayed at home and sang in the bath. Nobody should be encouraged to "practice in public". If you want to bring on and encourage new singers, run workshops, or persuade some of your more experienced singers to help new singers develop; don't let them embarrass themselves in front of an audience. Indifferent singing in public is boring and unsatisfying; bad singing is embarrassing.
There are many aspects to running a folk club well, but unless a club starts and ends with good singing as its main objective it is doing no favours to traditional song; indeed, it could well be helping deliver it a death-blow.
I have no great interest in ballet, and a marginal one in opera, but I have to acknowledge that performers, organisers and others working in these pursuits have invested a great deal of time and effort into perfecting their art and have more than earned the financial support they have received; I don't begrudge them one penny of it.
Personally, I would not like to see my taxes spent on activities which are not taken seriously by those participating in them.
I can think of no greater pleasure (fun) than hearing a good traditional song well sung, and, when I was singing regularly, I can't remember enjoying anything so much as, on the few occasions when I sang at my best, making my songs work for me and for my audience.
Jim Carroll
PS Just to remind whoever used the term; "finger-in-ear" refers to the practice common for centuries (probably millennia) and throughout the world, of cupping the hand over the ear in order to stay in tune – not a major consideration for many 'folk singers' today, I'll grant you!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:50 PM

That's not a "Care in the Community Choir" Brad, is it?

Sounds like you're doing something right at the Carrington.
Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: bradfordian
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:30 PM

Irreverent, yes, it adds to the fun, but also, I trust, respectful, a fine balance, perhaps; & I'm sure we wound not countenance abject disrespect from our visitors. People come to listen or sing; there is an inteval for all the other socialising & complaining (if any).
I do appreciate that many venues do not enjoy such a convivial atmosphere as that at Carrington, but iit does take allsorts to make the folk scene, & I'm sure the less well run events wiil eventually wither, in which case, if there is still a demand there, a new venue in the vicinity may appear because there is always an interest in making music and it will find a way of expressing itself.

I'm part of a traditional male voice choir & there is no-one under the age of 465 (expect me!), so when these guys pop their clogs, the choir will dissapear because there is no demand for this form of music from the young ones. I'm also in a community choir, and this is quite healthy, so perhaps we are looking at evolution on the choir side of things! So does the folk music scene not evolve to cater for changing demands?

Brad

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:26 PM

Scrump's hit the nail on the head!! let's all support and enjoy our own favourite venues, whatever type they are, and stop arguing!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:33 PM

oh and by the way there is percy edwards imitator in the club,if you sing a song with a cuckoo in it,dont be surprised to hear a cuckoo.
   rumour has it, that its the ghost of percy edwards, he apparantly visited the club many years ago,and liked it so much,that his ghost has gone back to haunt the club. Does anyone else have a folk club thats haunted.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM

grenville blatherwick,is the correct spelling.
gren has been stalwart of the nottingham folk scene for 40 years and was also involved wuith the long running coop folk club, if you are in the area I recomMend you call into the nottingham carrington folk club. IT IS IN AN UNSPOILT PUB , gladstone arms ,[victorian probably]with several different real ales, plus grens famous curry, the atmosphere is irreverent, friendly and informal, I suspect Countess richard aND The levellers would feel very much at home there.DickMiles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:42 AM

Granvile Blatherwick? - You couldn't make it up, could you?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:24 AM

There IS room for all and if WE don't like them, then WE don't have to go there!

Exactly. It seems the only concern is that folk clubs as we know them today will die out, leaving nowhere for people to learn to become performers, and a lot of empty arts centres with nobody to play in them because they don't know how to.

Perhaps this concern is unnecessary, because if people in the future after we've gone, want to learn to sing and play music, they will start their own equivalents to folk clubs (perhaps under a different name, but does that matter at all?), just as somebody must have had to start the folk clubs of the 1950s onwards.

If people don't want to learn to sing and play music, then that won't happen. But I think they will. Should we worry either way?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: bradfordian
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:25 AM

Cap'n B, thanks for the accolade for the Carrington Triangle Folk Club in Nottingham. Pity a good debate has degenerated once again, but here's my two pen'orth in support of this old fashioned midlands club. (It seems that the geographical focus is on Swindon (grin).) There are of course many factors which go into the making of a successful club, some under our control -- like management of the club, policy,ethos,ambience, others not -- like the unctionality of selected room, quality of refreshments, accessibility, attitude of landlord(or renting body).
The Carrington (which I reckon is a club of the 60's) has a good body of core supporters who enjoy a room with lots of atmosphere,
a policy of giving everybody the chance to sing or recite, a monthly guest, the most wierd (compulsory ;-) ) & entertaining raffle in the folk world, FREE vegetarian curry and good (tho slightly pricey) beer. Oh BTW, we just love to join in with the singing, and I'm sure many of the singers quoted above will, I'm sure agree that their experience at the Carrington was positive and enjoyable.

Now all of this would not have been achieved without the rock upon which all of this is built. And this is Granvile Blatherwick - Gren to all of us. It is he who has persisted in underpinning the success of the club by being its M.C. & Chief Curry maker, and indeed next year celebrates 25 years of so doing. Gren is not the perfect folk club M.C. but we love him just the same and he is supported. I've only been going to this club (& the Robin Hood ex Dave & Ruth Cooper, also in Nottingham) for about 12 years, tho I started in 1965 at the Bradford Folk Club which was a smaller rival the the more renowned TOPIC (still going strong) All the crap about the P.E.L.s messed up some of the good work, but I guess we've come thru it (we now feel, unfortunately,that we have to make everyone members)
but at the end of the day, it's a great club, and I doff my cap to Gren, and everyone who has been to the club and had a great night. And so may it continue. Also, its up to us the punters to get out there and support our kind of music in whatever venue we prefer, and if our kind of preference doesn't exist locally, maybe we should do what our 1960's pioneers did and start our own prefered medium where all will come and join in.
In my well run folk club there is a great nights entertainment at a very small cost. Tho few people smoke in the clubs these days, my preference would be for non-smoking, but as smoking is allowed, I can deal with it, because I am, as are most people, adaptable.
Going to a folk club led me on to country and morris dancing and thereby the community element flourished (including rambles which would terminate in appropriate merriment) I go to the club because it meets my needs, but I appreciate there are people interested im our kind of music who don't care for this type of venue, then they should find or create their kind of venue. There IS room for all and if WE don't like them, then WE don't have to go there!

Bradfordian

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:40 AM

countess richard sent me a personal message, explaining much of what she is campaigning for. I would like to thank her for doing that, as it caused me to go back and review this thread. I think we see a couple of dynamics at work here. I will try to sort it out, as I see it, for those interested. To those not interested, please forgive me and skip by.

It seems that the central question, that has risen from the initial assertion, is whether the folk club is germane, and will it survive. Dick Miles asserts that it is the entry point, and the critical community building block. countess richard feels that these clubs had their time, but they are now "past their sell by date". It seems she feels they are on a steady path to extinction. I don't find the two positions exclusive, nor do I agree the clubs are on a path to non existence. As in all things, you simply have two paths. And these venues are evolving in their own way. I know that when I do the small venue gig with a stable, aging audience, I love it. They are there to hear me and are appreciative. I enjoy watching the floor spots perform. Given that some are not the greatest performers, but that is part of this thing called the folk process. The great value lies not in the performance, but in the interpretation, something that the glitzier joints almost never have. Theirs is a world of polish. The folk club is a world of ordinary folks singing the songs. Each has its place. The poorly run venues will follow the evolutionary path to destruction. As to attracting young folks, I believe that to be an incomplete statement. I am not interested in just attracting young folks. I am interested in attracting young folks, like Sam Pirt (UK) and Elizabeth LaPrelle(USA), who are interested in preserving and enhancing the folk arts.

As to countess richard's approach, it is my belief that she is basically a very intelligent, very committed, promoter of English traditional music. While I have never met her in person, my guess is that she is a force wherever she goes. Sometimes that leads to making pronouncements that a person probably wishes they hadn't made in quite the way they made them. I think that is what happened here. She assured me that she has great respect for all performers, and has great respect for Dick Miles. I wish she had said that here in the same way she made the initial comment. When I reread her initial post, I still feel it crossed the line. But one can see from the follow on posts that she was backing up from that.

What I really take from this, and lie in envy of, is the passion of my English/British friends for the perpetuation of trad arts. Each and every one of you has my gratitude for what you do, and the passion you bring to our folk arts. Here in the States we have pockets like this, but there are far too many major cities without active groups. And there are far too many rural area letting their heritage slip away. Would that we had arguments, or should I call them spirited debates, as to which type of venue would survive and prosper.

Well done, and all the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:51 AM

I'm not entirely sure that a performer who books into an arts centre or other larger venue will necessarily pull a bigger crowd. When Jez Lowe performed at the City Vatieties in Leeds he played to around 20 people. Whenever he plays at the Grove Folk Club, in the same city he fills the room (65-70 paying punters). Ho hum.

A local venture that has taken off is the concert series at Saltaire Town Hall but they book guests that get pushed by Mike Harding and Froots (Sharon Shannon, Dervish, Lunasa etc.). It's a successful evening but they haven't, as yet, taken a punt on yer typical folk club guest.

As to singarounds, locally, at least, they are flourishing. Places like Korks, Otley and the Abbey in Leeds are packed with singers and musicians (and people who just come to listen, funnily enough) every week and are consistently exciting.

I reckon anywhere that allows live music ought to be encouraged. Try a venue out, if you like it, tell your friends, if you don't, don't go again. Easy, really.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:29 AM

Scrump - I think your points are well made, but I'm not sure you can generalise because there are too many variables involved. Living in the North East I am very lucky - there are many well run clubs within easy travelling distance - so many that I haven't got time to go to as many as I would like.

Amongst the ones I would highlight as offering a great experience to their members (and everyone else who comes) the format goes from a little intimate singaround room where, when a guest is booked, they simply sing three or four extended 'floor spots' through out the evening to a concert club where there is just an elected support act for the main guest with just a few singers nights through the year. In between are several clubs which have the floorspots/guest/break/floorspots/guest format. I would hate to pick a favourite ... I would also hate to identify which was the best attended/most successful/most enjoyable to participate in. But most of these clubs have run for a considerable number of years and my feeling is that they have evolved to suit the needs and tastes of their own members (and isn't that what any 'club' in any sphere is in business to do?) and that newcomers to folk will gravitate towards which ever format suits them best.

So where countess richard has suggested that folk clubs need to evolve by finding different formats or venues, I would suggest that todays 'well run' clubs have already evolved, and are continuing to do so, but by serving their own supporters rather than attempting to appeal to a mass audience for the sake of growth. Surely this would only be a mistake as an approach if audiences dwindled below a viable number. But in this area this does not seem to be the case, and in addition we seem to gain a small but steady number of new members who are welcomed and incorporated, and who express their delight at the experience they find.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:34 AM

At Swindon club the evening is split into 4 segments. A singaround; guest; more singaround and guest continues.

On some occasions the singaround can be the highlight of the evening, on others there may be some dire singing but that is never a case for a put down or not being asked to sing (or play) again but usually for the person to realise and to practice ready for the next attempt. Many off key reditions in their early days have blossomed into good performers. In some cases it took years....

It can be a uplifting to watch someone go from nervous wreck to confident and accomplished.

Agreed with the last part. I just think that approach is risky for the organisers, because people paying to see the guests might not be as patient as you regarding waiting for some of the 'dire' folk to become accomplished. You could have people walking out and not coming back.

A safer approach, I feel, is to have singarounds/sessions as separate evenings from guest nights. The people who 'graduate' from the singarounds/sessions can then support the guests on guest nights - or eventually even be booked as guests themselves. That way, the punters on guest nights will be happy, and you still have the same opportunity for beginners to have a go on singaround/session nights. This is the model for some clubs I know.

Is there any disadvantage I haven't thought of? Is it perhaps more difficult to attract people to the singarounds/sessions if there's no guest? Maybe some club organisers could comment?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: julian morbihan
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:00 AM

My thinking keeps coming back to the major difference between arts centres and "traditional" folk clubs is that one is exclusively for listening and the other for having a go yourself.

At Swindon club the evening is split into 4 segments. A singaround; guest; more singaround and guest continues.

On some occasions the singaround can be the highlight of the evening, on others there may be some dire singing but that is never a case for a put down or not being asked to sing (or play) again but usually for the person to realise and to practice ready for the next attempt. Many off key reditions in their early days have blossomed into good performers. In some cases it took years....

It can be a uplifting to watch someone go from nervous wreck to confident and accomplished.

To countess Richard (small c / big Rs - sorry feeble joke) do you sing or just listen? And not just joining in the chorus.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:03 AM

If I'm 'out of order', so be it. If people can't take off their rose-tinted spectacles and look dispassionately at a few home truths, then English folk music as a participatory form will die with them.

I feel at times that enjoying folk music in a boozer, retiring to the bar for a chin-wag with an ould mate(s) when there's someone singing stuff that I'm not intested in,(it DOES happen), is to be a weirdo.
Maybe a bit like an extreme minority pastime ( with apologies ) like a steam engine enthusiast or somesuch.

Bingo!

I think you'll find that that sort of participation in music is an extreme minority pastime. When I go to sessions and singarounds in various parts of the country I tend largely to see the usual suspects. It would surprise me if the actual number of active participants (as in singers and players) ventured into the low thousands. There are probably ten times that number in the UK doing line-dancing or some other faux-American hoofing. And fifty times that number who will have a go at the karaoke night at their local pub. Pub quizes? Thousands or more.

The pub session or singaround, enjoyable though it is, seems to me to be doomed. Music sessions - on the basis of a group of people booked to play "Irish" music - are maybe less endangered, provided the players keep themselves in a neat corner and don't frighten or drown out the punters, but singarounds run counter to the whole ethos of modern pub-going. In that sense, I'm afraid the issue is commercial.

Think of the great singarounds you have known. Invariably they've been at festivals where sheer weight of numbers prompts publicans to allow their pub to be used for a couple of sessions in the course of a year. Otherwise there are precious few still running as glorious and noisy celebrations of traditional song in a bustling pub, with breadth and harmony enough to raise the ceiling. People come from all over the country to the Sheffield carolling because it is so rare.

It's sad, but you only have to look at the effort needed to keep the Anchor in Sidmouth as a singing venue, or to keep the excellent Herga club going through its peripatetic existence; licensees and brewers don't like folk music because they're unsure of the licensing implications and because they would rather attract free-spending 18 to 30 year olds who will eat as well as drink than a bunch of weirdos, many of whom will nurse a drink for hours and contribute mere pennies to the till.

Thus, on those rare occasions when a publican can be found who doesn't automatically say no, singarounds are often relegated to little-used and uncongenial back rooms, where anything above a feeble dirge is likely to cause the stacked and broken chairs to topple and the piles of unusued promotional ashtrays to crack. Let's face it, so many folk venues present a pretty dismal prospect to the newcomer.

And what's with the sensitivity about beards? I remember stewarding at Towersey when a small child came up looking for her father. "What's he look like," she was asked. "Er, he's got a beard," she said. "Hmm, that narrows it down a bit!"

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:33 AM

A fascinating thought, countess.

A quick google revealed 634 pages (mostly about linguistic or criminological analysis) using the word "inclusory").

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:37 PM

Hiya JT , maybe we're being socially engineered to gather in music Halls which generate money for others outside the Folk music genre.
The standard of establishments and arrangements to which we might want to subscribe maybe don't mix.
I feel at times that enjoying folk music in a boozer, retiring to the bar for a chin-wag with an ould mate(s) when there's someone singing stuff that I'm not intested in,(it DOES happen), is to be a weirdo.
Maybe a bit like an extreme minority pastime ( with apologies ) like a steam engine enthusiast or somesuch.
Anyhow , good wishes to all the said "weirdos" (including steam enthusiasts of which I have no knowledge)I'm sure we've all met loads of different likeable individuals which is an important part of the whole subject.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:46 PM

Forgot again. 07:40 is from JT.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:40 PM

Betsy

Nevertheless, you still hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Shepherdlass

The Davy Lamp sounds just like what I was advocating a few posts back. Why then does it have to be the exception to the rule? Or is it?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:03 PM

To Guest JT - It should have been obvious I was talking tongue in cheek / realism , whilst still trying to address the question.
To Shepherd lass - fair play - Davy Lamp - is one of those wonderful exceptions one is bound to find find in English in all its' forms.
Countess Richard - is there anything pleasant about you ?

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:31 PM

I am not a countess with a capital C. It's how I registered. Don't you know Child #68 and can't you visualise the agenda of someone so treated by Young Hunting?
Who is this Grumpy Guest person anyway? How is it any of their business that I have been at the funeral of a musician followed by a gig (in a f*lk club as it goes, but one of the best) and have certainly not been 'keeping quiet' at his/her (presumably 'his') behest?

Fancy being satisfied at being 'at least competent'. I wasn't so I don't. Perform any more, that is. And as I don't write professionally any longer either so I am free to speak as I find and say what I like. For rather a lot of decades I have attended venues in a multiplicity of guises all over the UK and Europe. I don't regard it as 'being self-important' to say that I know by now if a venue is working for the performers, the punters and the music because I've been up there, I've stage-managed and I've reviewed.

'Inclusory' doesn't exist as a word. However, those who bang on about 'inclusiveness' mean inevitably 'lowest common denominator'. Sod that. If 'elitism' is to be equated with excellence, long live elitism. Don't play out till you can. Value your cultural heritage and add to it, don't abuse it. And keep it relevant by moving with the times, knowing your audience and keeping abreast with what they want.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:25 PM

Kitty

With a few exceptions it's the same throughout the land."Not sustainable for the future" applies to an ever increasing number of clubs whose membership has remained static since the 60s and 70s. Well run they may be in the eyes of the regulars but its only a matter of time before it's a case of, "Will the last to leave turn out the lights."

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:58 PM

CB

Comments on clubs that aren't well run do actually help to pinpoint what makes clubs that are well run.

Gervase's comments weren't out of order. The whole point about cliches is that they have a basis in reality. In my area, the problem is that most of the people at the folk club are people who were going to folk clubs in the 60s and 70s, and it's not sustainable for the future.

Kitty

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Mr Grumpy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:44 PM

The Countess (with a capital "C") has happily been quiet for a bit.

Countess, you are coming across as a self-important Countess indeed.

Folk music is inclusory, not elitist, and I think that is a matter of definition.

I don't often come out in this guise these days, but while I am (in real life) hardly ever a paid performer, I think I am usually welcomed as at least competent at what I do, at folk clubs.

How wonderful are you?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:03 PM

OK Apologies. Did I know you knew Breezy, although I guess there aren't many that don't know Breezy :-)

He was very good when he played up at Market Rasen Folk Club. We were all impressed with him.

Howver if gervase means it then OK give gervais the flack.

Howvever I thought it was amusing. >>fat bearded teachers [women as well],how many women have beards for god sake<<

Come on you fat bearded women teachers,come out of the closet. LOL

My granny had a beard, however she wasn't a teacher and she was 93

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:48 PM

Villan         look ive known john breeze for forty years, and consider him a friend of mine.
i was taking exception to gervases comments about folk clubs being full of fat bearded teachers [women as well,how many women have beards for god sake]BREEZY said gertvaise said it all ,so he appears to agree with him, how am i being unfair.
breezy runs a club fair play to him, i have BEEN praising club organisers on this thread, but I am Entitled to disagree with him, neither have I denigrated him as a performer. WHen he has done it for 46 years likethe Pooles at Swindon. THEN HE WILL HAVE REALLY EARNED MY RESPECT.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM

Sorry, forgot to add JT to post 01:36PM

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:27 PM

One of the most respected venues in the world is The Ark in Ann Arbor, Michigan. There is not one legendary folk performer that isn't aware of it, and most will play it at the drop of a hat. They do a very eclectic mix, and the secret to their longevity, IMO, is that they stay relevant, while mixing in the trad stuff. The crowd travels from three States and two countries to go to these concerts. So, in the main, I agree with countess richard.

Her early comments to Dick were, IMO, uncalled for. Seems as though an apology might be in order.

Mick

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:18 PM

Dick
I hardly think that is fair about Breezy. I have a lot of respect for what he does and wish a few other moaning bastards would get off their arse and put the effort in that he has clubwise.

I also like what he does as a performer.

Les Worrall
Market Rasen Folk Club

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: shepherdlass
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:12 PM

Something struck me as soon as the folk clubs v arts centres debate kicked in. Some venues (notably Washington's Davy Lamp) have the best of both worlds - professional performance space that links with other art forms AND the intimacy of a club. Is either of these extremes better than the other? How long is a piece of string?

It seems to me that the healthiest thing for performers, organizers and punters alike is to retain a mix of venues - some that pay the performers' mortgage; others that allow for new musicians to come through.    The best folk club organizers are more than equal to the best professional arts administrators - equally the worst of either category can ruin enjoyment of the music.   Surely both styles of presentation have their place - and each feeds the other. The one thing that seems absolutely certain is that people still want spaces where they can participate in music - you just have to look at karaoke and open mic sessions to see that. So are folk clubs really inherently old fashioned?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:10 PM

gervase, spent considerable part of his thread discussing clubs that are not well run[irrelevant to the thread],then stereotyping club goers as fat bearded teachers [what about the women and yourself breezy].AT SWINDON FOLK CLUB I was one of two bearded people out of thirty, I am neither fat nor a teacher.
perhaps ST ALBANS FOLK CLUB IS FULL OF FAT BEARDED TEACHERS[ WOMEN AS WELL], if it is you might lose your audience by agreeing with gervases comments.
breezy, what percentage of your club is women, 45 per cent AT LEAST I suspect,more likely FIFTY PER CENT[ How many women have beards]and how many are teachers.
[no sorry Gervase didnt say it all ,what he said was a half truth.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:02 PM

Do you mean this Breezy LOL

>>Oh, and just to annoy people - 100! <<

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:50 PM

Gervaise said it all

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:36 PM

No one is denying that dedicated members of the fraternity put their hearts and souls and sometimes their sanity into running folk clubs. What is increasingly obvious, to me at least, is that, in the main, they are fighting a losing battle. Lesser mortals would throw in the towel and say, "stuff this for a game of soldiers" when week in and week out the same ten, as Bernard described, stoically turn up for a guest who should logically deserve a full house. The same guest appearing at the nearest arts centre will probably attract an audience of at least one hundred. Why? That audience is, in all probability, attracted from the same catchment area as the club. Perhaps the answer is for the club and the arts centre to get together and form some sort of affiliation. Instead of having a them and us situation, would it be possible to work together to everyones' mutual benefit?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:27 PM

well run means [to me]that those people [be they ten or thirty], got something out of the evening, that perhaps inspired them creatively or and provided pleasure and enjoyment.It is not necesarily about bums on seats, or being commercial,although it can be that as well.
COUNTESS RICHARD seems concerned about being more commercial,I am undecided on that.I certainly dont think replacing folk clubs with art centres is the way forward,. Iam sure she is well intentioned, but I think that solution will kill the music,and it is not one, as a performer I wish to see
commercialisation of folk music is a dangerous road it generally ends up with the music becoming compromised.
However I do know people who were introduced to folk music by the spinners and fairport convention, and steeleye span., in my opinion the bestcommercial group were the weavers [ but then they had a political belief rather than a commercial reason for playing to larger audiences.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Grab
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:43 PM

Oh, and lest anyone misunderstand, I've *been* that geek... ;-)

Graham.