Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM

Jim
As ever, songwriters write songs. Not many others had the time or the inclination, and is still thus!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 09:47 AM

Politics never made ANYBODY feel better.

Nonsense. The Scottish independence movement has consistently had exhilarating music, so did the anti-racist and gay liberation struggles in their heyday.

It's a downer (speaking as an enthusistic indy street musician) that the Scottish national struggle has been suspended until the plague's over, and we need to do something about that.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:21 AM

"I think the real problem is that people like Jim still see folk music as a vehicle to advance a political position."
Try responding to what I have said rather than throwing stones at it from a sake distance Ake
If you think folk song is the product of the educated elite - don't beat about the bush - just come out and say so

"I have stated my point of view. "
Me to - that's what were here for
The queue of people pleading the fifth on the grounds it might incriminate them grows longer and longer by the day
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

Jack asks "Who's doing this well? "

Well this is quite important.

There is so much going on online out there including individual artists, musicians, and singers promoting themselves for a variety of reasons. Some just like performing and getting the music out there but, for some, there are financial considerations.
As Jack says, local sessions, workshop tutors, festival organisers are all doing this sort of thing too.

I too find it hard to keep up with it all and there's still plenty of other musical things I can be doing at home without worrying about too much increased activity online.

However, I think most of us will be more discerning as to to which videos we check out, groups we join or follow and so on. So, it's possible that we might even become less loyal to our local clubs and/or sessions etc if we see that there's something better out there.
With The Internet, "the world is your oyster" so to speak but, with live music in the real world, your access is restricted to venues and events within travelling distance although we obviously make a special effort to visit some of our favourite festivals too.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM

I'm not arguing with you, Jim. I have stated my point of view. Everyone knows yours. Neither will change and to repeat those views ad infinitum results in rancour and insanity. I disagree with your standpoint but accept it is your view. If you could do the same you can draw a line under it as I am now.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:37 AM

I have spent far more time (and money) at festivals and workshops (all round Europe) in recent years than I have at folk clubs. Most of the ones I've been to before, and might have gone to this year, have compensated for the cancellations by organizing some sort of web-based content - video retrospectives, new album releases and previews by their most visible performers, Skype/Zoom tutoring and playalongs... it's been pretty actuve, more than I can follow. Some local sessions are doing the same in virtual pubs. Surely folk clubs need to do that if they are going to live through hibernation. Who's doing this well?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

I think the real problem is that people like Jim still see folk music as a vehicle to advance a political position.    Although this idea was shared by Ewan, Pete, Woody and the BNP, it is totally false and bears no relation to the music of the people, which was usually aimed at making themselves feel better through song and dance.    Politics never made ANYBODY feel better.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM

Sigh.....
"No-one has even hinted, let alone stated, that the English were not capable of, or indeed didn't compose songs."
Suggesting that 90% plus of our folk songs were originated from the pens of bad poets - the hacks - is saying exactly that - as is your equating loccaly made songs (when I raised the matter) as the scribbling of retired people with little else to do
What do you suggest our traditional singers were other than parrots repeating whet they had bought Steve
I agree entirely with Vic, though I dought if our meanings are the same - it is "racist" to suggest that the English people didn't make our songs as the Irish now obviously dis
What part exactly do you claim the singers had in the compostion of our folk songs Steve - have you really changed your mind
Ot maybe I misraed and you didn't say they had to buy them ?

Not only did the songs and stories sweel Ebgland/Britain - they were found in Europe
Britain was an Empire - it's soldiers, sailors, peddlers, Travellers, itinerant labourers..... covered the world
Stop making excuses - we know these songs proliferated wherever the English set foot - at home and abroad

If, has as been pointed out, it only takes one person to make a community literary, then equally it only takes one singer to spread a song wherever he/she travels

We don't know for certain who made our folk-songs - we never shall, we can only deal in probabilities
It is highly improbable that desk bound bad poets forced to work at a rate of knots under pressure could possibly have made songs as intimate and insightful of the rural human condition as is to be found in our folk songs
It is far likelier that those who experienced the events described did
It really never gets more difficult than that
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

I don't think I said folk clubs rely on the guest artist being booked ~

1 I think that it is a good idea that the young thruster professionals
should run their own clubs and attract their own audience, to rely
on folk clubs (see my definition above posting) creating an audience   
and
booking guests is a thankless task and should not be taken for granted
   
2 Many artist do rely on their good name and ability for bookings and
their attitude is "I am an artist I do not run clubs" ~ yes yes there
are a number who do! But do the artists NOT have a duty to be   
inclusive, to research and teach and be sociable towards younger and
older ppl as well as encouraging audience and club allegiance?

There are many very good/excellent guest artists looking for work ~ so why do they not get working on creating their own clubs and popularising the genre ~

Yes of course many look to different venues ~ is this the way forwards?

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM

At the beginning of the revival and well into the 60s the folk club was the life blood of the folkscene. For better or worse that is no longer the case. The folk clubs are only another facet of a widely diverse collection of venues and outlets. This will help it to survive, and in my opinion is a much healthier situation.

One aspect that is healthier is that instead of being tucked away in a private room in a pub the music is being taken out into the wide world where anyone can access it and come across it by accident.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:13 AM

Steve wrote
Don't be ridiculous!
It is more than ridiculous. It is evidence of racist eugenic thinking and should not go unchallenged by the moderators.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM

"I see no reason why the same shouldn't be the case with England unless they/we were a particularly backward race"

Same old mantra totally unfounded and illogical!

No-one has even hinted, let alone stated, that the English were not capable of, or indeed didn't compose songs.
We have repeatedly told you on numerous threads , and given examples, to show that they did and are still doing.

The point you totally cannot understand and will not take in is that because of their location and the lack of technology at the time (first half of 19th century) these songs had little chance of passing into the national or even regional corpus. When the collectors came along they were more interested in those songs that showed wider evidence of oral transmission as opposed to the locally composed pieces that showed little or no evidence of oral transmission.

For the umpteenth time, comparing 70s Irish travellers with early 19th century rural English is chalk and cheese, as regards what they wrote and sang.

'backward race'! Don't be ridiculous!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:19 AM

"it will keep going long after the clubs have passed into legend. "
It will surcive in books and archives - unless people encourage and take advantage of it it will not possibly "keep going" - there is now way it can
That is absolving the generation who re-discovered it from all responsibility for it
If everybody had done that it would have disappeared when it ceased to be part of our cultures
Ticking over in a few 'warm spots' is as far from "thriving" as you can possibly get
It is as "big" or "small" as the numbers involved Dave
That's a whole mixture of contradictions
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:17 AM

The problem isn't so much what happens to an individual club - some described here obviously have what it takes to survive - but a spiral of decline that affects them all. Less clubs within travelling distance makes a tour more expensive, which discourage a act from touring, which means less acts available, which means clubs get less attractive and more likely to close... that process can only be redirected by changes in the overall economics or culture of the folk scene. And the culture is the more flexible bit. I suspect we will see a closer integration of on-line performance and micro-venues which will largely replace the folk club institution - it won't be back to as it was before the 1950s but something new.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:56 AM

Folk clubs, as being discussed, came into being less than 70 years ago. Folk music, as we know it, has been around for hundreds of not thousands of years and it will keep going long after the clubs have passed into legend. Much like this discussion really. The folk clubs of the 50s and 60s are gone and no one can turn the clock back. We have moved on but as long as someone is singing and playing the music it will continue to thrive in spite of what people say and do. That is the important thing. Folk music is far too big to be stopped by individuals or constrained by either venues or definition.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:41 AM

folk clubs need dedicated organisers ,a reliable and pleasant premises with good acoustics,one that is not at the mercy of changing managers, a good set of resident singers and musicians, and good promotion.
recently [feb 2020]   i had two fantastic nights one at stoke on trent and the other at stockton, one of the organisers of the potteries folk club anne morris an experienced organiser sent me a personal message thanking me for a wonderful night. are you listening clive pownceby?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM

Sorry Ray - I like sone of what you say but I believe professional singers, far from being "a key" are a burden we all have to bear
If we relay on them why not stay at home and listen in comfort
We should take our sustenance from our grass-roots nature £young thrusters" sounds a little partonising to me - they are, or should be any revival's lifeblood
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:28 AM

Sorry Malcolm - I type far too fast and invariably send off my postings while doing something else
I'm afraid I don't accept 'typos' or suggestions that what I have to say is unclear as an excuse for not answering my points, which are, I believe too clear for some people
I'm disappointed that you should hide behind typos - you, of all people

We came together all those years ago to listen too and sing a particular type of song, many of us came to believe those songs to be far more significant than mere entertainment and we began to dig deeper
In the case of Pat and I, that included seeking out people who had a claim (though they may not have made it themselves) to be part of our oral traditions through either having participated in them or belonging to families who had
We spent over thirty years recording their songs and what they had to say about them and, largely based on what we learned, formed our opinions on where where they lay in the grand scheme of things
Some of what we had believed didn't hold water, much did, and we were able to add to that store of knowledge some things we hadn't known - Pat found something that had been staring people in the face about broken token songs that had gone unnoticed, and between us we found out masses about the way traditional singers had learned and passed on their songs and how they viewed them personally as singers (literally envisioned them, in fact!)

Probably one of our most important findings was that the people we met came from generations of natural song-makers who, contrary to the claims of some of our neo-scholars, didn't repeat songs they had been given like parrots, but in fact made many of them because of a desire to record what they saw and experienced - this has been overwhelmingly proved a fact in Ireland and to a lesser degree in Scotland; I see no reason why the same shouldn't be the case with England unless they/we were a particularly backward race

This is the nature of the beast we set out to capture - the remnants of a people's largely lost creative culture and oral history mixed into one enjoyable bundle
As younger people we enjoyed singing the songs - it sometimes took a little time to milk them for their full richness, but we got there in the end - I'm delighted to have lived long enough to see the Irish youth embark on the same path we did and again, I see no reason why that can't happen in Britain, where the ball appears to have been dropped at present
I still enjoy singing, I can't get enough of it, but more important than that, I'm pleased and proud to have something to leave behind in the hope that people will get as at least half much out of it as we did

I have vague memories of having met you on a couple of occasions - I seem to remember you having come from a similar background to myself
I had a pretty basic education and left school having been told by those who taught me that all people like me needed to get through life was the ability to count our wages at the end of the week
Luckily I came from background that taught me that wasn't enough -
My grandfather, a merchant seaman, believed that if you wanted to change the world you needed to educate yourself, so he helped set up the W.E.A among his fellow sailors - he became a fanatical Shakespearean buff, translated some of his plays into broad Scouse and was invited to give talks to students in his home town of Stoke on Trent when he was nearly 80
My dad was similar - an avid reader who wanted to make the world a better place, went off to fight Fascism in Spain, where he was wounded, imprisoned and tortured mentally for nearly a year
He came home to find he had been blacklisted via the authorities so he became a navvy, where he spent a great deal of effort trying to improve conditions
He never stopped reading and brought me up to do the same - he's another Shakespeare addict, as I have become - a family addiction

What I'm trying to say in my typically long-winded way is that I believe we stumbled across something extremely important and precious in our youth and, whether we like it or not, we bear a great responsibility for it (In Ireland they call it 'An geasach' (phonetic) - a binding commitment given as a gift)
It's our job to pass it on, whether we want to be bothered or not - I'm lucky enough to still want to be part of it

Should be enough typos in there to keep those who are inclined that way busy for a week :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:44 AM

Some interesting comments from the usual mudcat suspects

Will folk clubs survive post Covid 19? I thought was the question ~ but of course the wider longstanding questions are relevant

A number of pubs where folk music is an important source of revenue where I find the songs and the music are Doncaster Brewery Tap ~ where the pub brews and yes we sit in what was a Shop frontage ~ I reckon should survive

Fernandes Tap in Wakefield ~ real ale pub a good turn up of traditional style singers/musicians ~ and audience ~

Audience is vital for the on going survival of not just music performers but the pubs themselves

Polka Hop in Wakefield run by young folkies who attract the local Wakefield Morris and sword dancers and also musicians ~ while ever there is an interest in ppl gathering to make music, sing, dance and drink there will be a place and venue ~ all of course depends on continued interest

Concerty clubs are likely to hold and continue to hold Charity folk nights ~I know of two locally who make donations to Charities as a matter of course and attract audiences and enthusiasts on that premise

Professional singers are the key to Folk club continuance ~ many of the revival clubs were and continue to be run by the "young thrusters" there is and argumen that audiences are taken for granted and seen only as a source of income to pay for visiting professional and semi pro guests ~ this is another story!

So for folk clubs to survive depends on the attraction audience, and the nuts and bolts of how the club is run ~ it is not a matter of the guests booked attracting paying customers ~ for me in Barnsley the best guests are booked by the Local Authority entertainments ppl who have the bigger venues and can vary the entertainment and stand any losses whilst taking the profit (or increasing the contribution to fixed costs)

Folk scene is a wide wide animal with all sorts of facets

Folk clubs are ~I will define what I mean, a place where people congregate to sing songs play music and ditties that they (hopefully have learnt) to an audience of ppl who hopefully will embrace the performance ~ guest probably once every so often say once a month ish

A Folk club booking weekly guests is not to my mind a folk club ~ it is a Concert club ~ these should could and hopefully are run on a Club basis ~ it is hardwork and tasks need to be shared and this in turn should help the continued success of the venture

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:37 PM

Jim, I had a friend who a lot of people will remember who was a great singer and also a fierce man for the drink as the Irish might say.
One particular evening we had been celebrating being alive and at the end of the night he came out of the pub and as someone remarked set off for home in six different directions at once.
You seem to have the same problem when it comes to presenting your position with regard to the topic in hand. I get particularly confused when trying to interprit your typos and would ask that you self check your messages before pressing the send button - please.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 07:34 PM

Yes, I was wondering about those six years that the Corries "lasted"

1962 until 1990

Never really bothered with touring or performing outside of Scotland by choice according to Ronnie Brown, although if anyone wants to verify that they could easily consult his book.

I only sing songs that I like.

First thing is that I have to like the melody

Second is that the song has got to be about something, it has to tell a story.

After I have learned the song, I then take great pleasure in finding out as much as I can about it, but that part of it is purely for personal interest.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:31 PM

Where do you get "6 years" from, Jim ? I know it's "Wikipedia", but :
"The Corries were a Scottish folk group that emerged from the Scottish folk revival of the early 1960s. The group was a trio from their formation until 1966 when founder Bill Smith left the band but Roy Williamson and Ronnie Browne continued as a duo until Williamson's death in 1990".
There are several clips from "Fiddles & Whistles An'A'" on "Youtube", guests also included "Ossian", Dougie MacLean, "The Albion Band", Allan Taylor and "Crannachan". One of TVs better efforts.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:10 PM

Could be right John, as June did "Flash Company" and "Gamekeepers" Martin did "First Cut" and Andy sang "Golden Golden" with SW.
BTW I agree with your remarks regarding the Scottish folk scene I see nothing insulting in anything you have ever written here or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:59 PM

If I recall, that was an eighties TV progamme. "Fiddles, whistles and 'a'" for The BBC.
Filmed in The Pleasance but not connected with any of the local clubs. I went to a couple of the shows myself.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:50 PM

Hi John, I believe the Edinburgh University Club was pretty early but were they actual clubs or run as concert nights like ours?
I think I told you already, I have old video/DVD from the Pleasance featuring Silly wizard, Martin Simpson June Tabor the Macs and several others

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:50 PM

Oops, last post was mine

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:48 PM

The Corries only lasted six years? Ach well.


Ake,

I believe Scotland's first clubs might have been The Crown and/or The Buffs in Edinburgh circa 1958 but many others soon followed during the sixties.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:05 PM

"folk Police"
I swore |I wouldn't respond yto this insulting behavior - how world you respond if I refererd you to an anti-folk fascist ?
Folk song had died in Scotland too - the BBC set themselves the task of capturing what was left largely from from elderly people who were remembering what their parents and grandparents taught them - the main exception being the Travellers
Even in the Hebrides, Lomax and Ennis had to persuade the lady waulkers to pretend to be waulking the tweed
Maccoll was actually busking with Scots Ballads and songs in Gaelic outside Manchester cinemas in the thirties, but he was not part of a living singing tradition
Dead as a doornail despite the unqualified claims of our insulting friend
The lver for the club scene was a conscious effort by a few dedicated people, (now largely reviled by lesser mortals) using the findings of the BBC team
one of the great leaps forward was 'The Song Carriers' which turned the retirements of 'The Folk Boom' into a serous movement
Bert ws doing his best to ling British folk song with its international cousins - wonderful days when we midgets were riding on the shoulders of giants like MacColl, Lloyd, Parker, Lomax, Goldstein, Henderson, Norman Buchan.... and thankful for the lift
Where have all the heroes gone !!!
McGregor came tio folk in the early 1960s when he teamed up with Robin hall according to a talk he gave at Keele - up to that he was a trainee potter and a teacher, if memory serves
The Corries were formed around the same time, during the boom and only lasted six years

"You say a song about farting in Church is a folk song"
That was a quote by an old man who described the hundreds of anaonymous songs being made throughout Ireland and taking root for a time in the rural towns
They hardly survived the memory o the events they described, but they fitted any definition I've ever come cross of folk songs - they represented a largely lost folk repertoire
Ireland hasd a living Tradition up to the 40s until Church and State combined with the Dance Halls act, which killed off most home-made singing and music artificially   
In England our folk repertoire was largely as dead as a dodo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM

John in the early sixties in rural Scotland there were no "Folk Clubs" We were known as "The Alba Folk Club" but there was no "club" ingredient, we were in truth a weekly organised concert of folk music, a few big name artists, a group, a couple of local amateurs and a huge quantity of hard liquor. These nights went on from eight o clock till sometimes the wee small hours, Even the bigger names loved the large audience, several hundred, and the opportunity to polish up their "patter". They were well paid for the effort most of them put into their performances, but these crowds did not come to be "educated, indoctrinated, or lectured", they came to have a bloody good night out through involving themselves in the music and engaging the big names in some hilarious banter. It was all about involvement, but todays population have other lonelier means of being involved.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:56 PM

"When the club scene started folk song as a living art was as dead ass Monty Python's Parrot "

In Scotland and Ireland too(I believe), there was always music and song around. Perhaps not all of the variety which we (now) or the "folk Police" might approve but it was always there.

Of course, the folk revival and clubs were very important but there was still a form of "living tradition" going on in Scotland and I'm not just referring to the "White Heather" type of thing. Not that the latter was all that bad either. We had people like Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor, The Corries, and quite a few more who actually predated the folk club scene although one or two clubs did emerge as early as the late fifties.

It's quite possible that folk and traditional music might have taken off in the sixties in some other way if folk clubs hadn't existed. It has certainly flourished and evolved in other areas in recent years beyond the club scene.

Of course, how the music develops won't necessarily suit everyone but folk clubs are only a part it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:38 PM

Jim I am not advocating fossilisation of the genre,on the contrary,I am saying that is what happened before folk clubs were invented.
Folk clubs bring people who appreciate the music together to perform it and keep it alive.The music of the people was both old and new songs and the singers reflected that.
Your take the view that songs should be trad or written in the style of old songs if not they are dismissed as pop rubbish.
You say a song about farting in Church is a folk song if it was written by a local ,and say modern singers only write pop songs that will not last,smell the coffee millions of songs have died over time who ever wrote them.
The only songs which last for many years are the best of whatever genre they are.
Kenny of course you are right when you say that folk clubs aren't the only place that people can share music but it a place that many people do, another way to do keep it alive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:27 PM

"You don't actually need a "Folk Club" to do that. Never have."
Well actually we have Kenny
When the club scene started folk song as a living art was as dead ass Monty Python's Parrot
It was preserved in aspic in books and an a few recordings but these were largely exhibition cases in all but a tiny handful of exceptions - it was doubtful if those within a few familiesd would survive that generation
It gave us an escape route from teh clutches of the 'Ink and Blue Toothbrushes' and all the other pap that was being foisted on us and gave us the opportunity to transform from passive bums on seats into creative and in some cases talented butterflies
I would come home from the docks, take off my overalls, wash and become someone else for a few hours - that gradually spread to take over my life
Apart from the responsibility some of us feel towards what we discovered, to rob our kids of the opportinities we had wold be pretty selfish
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:59 PM

"Will folk clubs survive?
Yes, as long as people wish to meet and sing and play together".

You don't actually need a "Folk Club" to do that. Never have.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:25 PM

It would be artificial to create the old ways Derrick and would defeat the purpose of taking folk music up in the first place
To do so would be to fossilise the music which would almost certainly noy survive the presentt older generation
You are not seriously suggesting that youngsters gather at home and sing folk songs, are you ?
Pop songs are transient and seldom live their sell-by date
We are talking about the same people's culture, 'The Songs of the People' aren't we ?'
I'd have thought EFDSS were the l people to stand on the platform waving their rasen d'etré off into the sunset
Nobody would do that if they believed the genre unique and important
Once yopu believe that to be the case with folk song you don't attempt to tailor performances tyo suit anybody - you make the best job of what you have and hope it's good enough to draw new people to it

I know traditional song and music can work for the younger generation - I've only got to turn Irish television or radio to see and hear them wallowing in the largely unadulterated stuff - yes - and experimenting with it
It has now re-rooted here for at least another century I would guess
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 11:50 AM

Found the below on the internet and it brought this thread to mind:

"Extinction is often caused by a change in environmental conditions. When conditions change, some species possess adaptations that allow them to survive and reproduce, while others do not. If the environment changes slowly enough, species will sometimes evolve the necessary adaptations, over many generations. If conditions change more quickly than a species can evolve, however, and if members of that species lack the traits they need to survive in the new environment, the likely result will be extinction." (from PBS)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 11:42 AM

Will folk clubs survive?
Yes, as long as people wish to meet and sing and play together.
The people will enjoy what ever kind of folk they personally enjoy.
Some clubs will lean heavily in the traditional direction others will lean the other way.
Most clubs are a mixture of both and appreciate both types.
This is what most audiences did in the past ie before clubs when they met in homes, pubs, harvest suppers, et all.
the singers learned songs old and new which they liked and taylored a performance to suit the varied tastes of their listeners.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:56 AM

I find much of this both revealing and depressing
Iv'e spent years being told that I have no ight to an opinion and folk clubs are healthy
Now I'm being told that they are more or less finished and that I have to rely on I-phones
Who is a girl to believe !!!
I-phone see a litle like pleasing yourself by masturbating -and why sing into them when you've always got a rubber duck in the bath awaiting your attention
I relied eye-contact and listener response to help my judge if my songs were working for others - we shared opinions and information at our clubs, we requested songs from the singers
I can still remember queues of people during the interval and at the end waiting to talk to the unapproachable Ewan and Peg, both had to apologise regularly for not being to fit in all the requests
Our songs were, I believe, made for sharing emotions and experiences - they were a social necessity which thrived on human contact
Lap-top, I-pone - nah - I might as well take a leaf out of Shirley Valentine's book and talk to the kitchen wall

Pepsi always made me fart - it used to be 3d a bottle in the Cavern until some local humourist spread the rumour that it made you impotent
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:13 AM

Which virus?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:03 AM

I almost agree with Jack C although, in the great scheme of things, most folk clubs are probably more at the smaller end of the spectrum.
So, they may have a better chance. Certainly the more cosy and community variety. Even Edinburgh Folk Club could fall into such a category since they moved to a smaller venue a few months ago.

Then medium sized venues but I reckon many people will be very cautious about attending larger events until they are very sure that the virus has been eradicated.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:42 AM

I wish all pubs had those Pepsi machines like there are in Harvester pubs. I get pissed off with the expensive and lousy choice of non alcoholic drinks. I don't know what its like in other countries, but in England you will lose your driving licence if you drink over the limit and drive.

The americans were lucky having folk clubs in coffee houses. There were a few in England, but the majority were in the upstairs rooms of pubs - totally inaccessisible for disabled folk music fans.

Its stuff like this and the loudmouths who look like they've been arseholed since 1954 that need a re-boot. Some changes have been good for our society - like the tightening up of the drink driving laws and awareness of the needs of disabled people. Many of us seem to have ignored them.

Also nice comfortable chairs would be good.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:31 AM

"How many professional singers will they be able to support?"
The revival was set up to avoid the need for professional singers - who needs them - we never did
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:22 AM

" I can't see many of them making it " Sadly Jack I think you're right. There's no need for a designated space a lot of songs sung would be perfectly acceptable in the bar.We gathered together in a separate room for a reason. Our music wasn't main steam.

Things will be different when they sound the all clear.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

The boom in on-line performances provides a basis for a recovery to start with gatherings in private homes - then sessions and house concerts in small venues, whichever ones are still open. The larger the scale, the longer the recovery will take, more because of financial risk than infection risk - and given the additional hit of Brexit, folk stadium concerts are probably gone forever.

Folk clubs are in the middle of this spectrum. It might take more energy and commitment to restart one than can be found. I can't see many of them making it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 08:23 AM

The question could be; How many folk clubs will survive?

How many professional singers will they be able to support? Will folk singers in future be amateurs and semi-professionals? Would this be a bad thing? Where would they find their audience, if they actually need one?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 08:14 AM

Can we return to the real 21st century folk scene rather than Jim's reimagining of the 20th please.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:32 AM

"This was happening right from the 50s and through. Some places it happened but not in others."
On the contrary - while some clubs ogged along, many maintained their own standards and no lonegr had to depend on outside help - the standard became particularly high in some and never fell below what was acceptible in many otherse which is why Alex Campbell developed his "good enough fro folk"   jibe to annoy 'the purists'
When those standards began to fall there were comments in the mags (still have many of them)
Folk Review published an article (from Fred Woods I think) which led to s long, long debate on everything people thought was going wrong with the clubs - I still have them
Shortly after that audiences declined, clubs began to close, labels and other outlets disappeared... the rest is history
That happened i London, Birmingham, Manchester and other cities and also in some of the smaller places we had dealings with - Pat noticed this as she was booking secretary for 'The Singers Club
It was around then that, when she tried to get Walter Pardon booked she was told, "We don't do that sort of thing, we're a folk club'

On line is fine - but it's impersonal and remote and basically uncontrolled and uncontrollable in both quality and content
The social side of the club scene was never too important to me but some people here and elsewhere have put it up sometimes as being as important as the music
Nevr get that from your I-pod
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

>>>Standards were bad and getting worse and people were turning up at folk clubs and not heaing folk-songs<<<<

This was happening right from the 50s and through. Some places it happened but not in others. I and many others here have stated that as City dwellers like you were, if we wanted it we could always find traditional song clubs where that medium dominated. In the 60s in Hull we had 2 main long-lasting folkclubs in the same pub. One was an anything goes, the other dominated by trad folk music. The trad one went on into the 90s long after the other had folded, and even then the trad one evolved into 2 clubs out into the sticks where trad continued and still does dominate. I see similar patterns in other areas which we've told you about constantly and you ignore. Then there are all the sessions, singarounds, concerts, festivals that thrive in the cities and elsewhere, even in these sad economic conditions. They WILL come back after the pandemic.

And by the way, enthusiasts are going to great lengths to run events online. More power to them, until we can get back what we had, and for Godsake give them all the support you can.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:52 AM

Hmmm, I suppose most here were around at the start of the fifties and sixties "folk boom".   The truth is, that very few who attended our weekly concerts were in the least interested in the history of the songs, they came for the emotional kick that wasn't present in the popular music of the time.
Some people here, and one in particular should start to understand that our population has changed out of all recognition regarding how they respond or are entertained. Our generation felt a connection to the music, as we recognised the hardship of life; it affected us all and if it didn't kill us it made us strong. At the time, our music also engendered a sense of community through the plethora of chorus songs constructed many years before for that sole purpose,
Times have changed, let the clubs die in peace, there is always Mudcat to ease the pain of our more sensitive brethren.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:45 AM

'Research and performance have always seemed inseparable to me' Then you are in a very very small minority. On here I can only think of Brian in that category. I suppose I do know the background to all the songs I sing but that is a biproduct. I definitely consider my performance and research as 2 separate but very enjoyable things. Perhaps if the likes of Bert had done the same we might have had a lot more clarity from him.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:33 AM

Steve - the main causes of the decline of the scene are both obvious and were predicted - what happened later may have had numerous reasons
Standards were bad and getting worse and people were turning up at folk clubs and not heaing folk-songs
What remained has proven to be non-sustainable
That makes total senswe to me
If I want to hear Ed Shaeran songs I go to the master, not the sweeper-up
If I want to take pot luck there are other, better organised laces for that

I think it's common sense to think that the more you learn of the song the more you are likely to want to sing or listen to it again
Research and performance have always seemed inseparable to me
Now we have the internet and forums like this we are able to add constantly to both our knowledge and enjoyment of the songs - it would be a crying shame to waste that
I have recently added around a dozen 'must-learns' to my list from my Irish Child ballad work
Jim