Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:29 AM

True. But those sort of downloads can't be anything like the majority : the number's just don't add up. The point being that if the majority of illegal downloads really were just "curiosity/see what it sounds like" downloads, the record industry quite simply wouldn't have noticed. It wouldn't have even registered as a blip. Instead, it's taken a massive hit.

There's also something slightly spurious about that "road-testing" argument. At what point do you decide that, actually yes, this is an album you quite like and might have bought. A week later? 6 weeks later? a year later? 6 years later? There's a lot of imponderables there.

(and at least with libraries, there's a little loans royalty. it's titchy sure, but at least it's some kind of kickback to the artist)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:17 AM

Plus the brute fact remains that if downloading weren't around, they would HAVE to have bought it

That is not necessarily the case. Speaking for myself, recordings that I would download and/or borrow from a library and copy would be the ones I would be curious about but wouldn't immediately fancy buying. Or they would be ones no longer available for sale.

I can not imagine I am unique in this.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:04 AM

that was me above by the way.

"    People who illegally download music from the internet also spend more money on music than anyone else, according to a new study. The survey, published today, found that those who admit illegally downloading music spent an average of £77 a year on music – £33 more than those who claim that they never download music dishonestly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/illegal-downloaders-spend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html"

I've read that article and others like it. There's so much wrong with it.

When you really think about it though that argument's meaningless.

All it tells you is that people who really like listening to a lot of music tend to be the people who consume more of it. And that the big decline in music sales is proportionate: the people who always spent the most money on music still spend the most money on music, but there is simply less of it all told (due to downloading!). The ceiling is much lower.

I suspect that the music that they buy tends to be the music they can't immediately download - and that if they could immediately download it, they wouldn't buy it.

Plus the brute fact remains that if downloading weren't around, they would HAVE to have bought it. And anyway, is that article suggesting that, were someone to be caught out downloading and fined, they would somehow take revenge on the music industry by never buying any music again?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:56 AM

"matt, if you're even thinking of suggesting that I might prefer Tony Rose & Tony Capstick dead...

The B*lm*r situation makes things complicated. Nic Jones's first two albums have been reissued on CD - I've got one of them. The selling price is low, the packaging is cheap & I believe the disc itself is a CD-R (it doesn't play on my 1990s CD player); it's a fair bet that, as before, the royalties aren't going to the artist. So if I owe Nic the royalty for my downloaded copy of Nic Jones, presumably I also owe him in respect of my 'legit' Ballads and songs and my tape-of-a-tape Noah's Ark trap.

(I have a plan for dealing with this situation, involving Mollie Music and PayPal. If anyone can find a way to bung a few quid back through time to Tony Capstick, I'm all ears. And if they can dry the bugger out and get him singing again, that'd be good too. Sorry, I've been watching too much Doctor Who.)"

I was very careful to write "surviving" a few times in my posts!
I'm not suggesting you'd prefer anyone dead! It's just that I've read a few comments on the THTM website where it almost seems as if they prefer their "lost folkies" to be as lost as humanly possible.

It sounds like you know much more about the ins and outs of Nic Jones' back catalogue than I do. My attitude is simply that it really doesn't matter where you get whichever album from; it doesn't stop you from going to the website of Nic Jones or Dave Burland to see if there's a contact address to post a fiver to (or something). Put money in the hat. In my opinion, what you 'owe' someone is what you feel they've given you is worth. I like the busker model.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM

Illegal downloaders 'spend the most on music', says poll

Crackdown on music piracy could further harm ailing industry

By Rachel Shields

Sunday, 1 November 2009

    People who illegally download music from the internet also spend more money on music than anyone else, according to a new study. The survey, published today, found that those who admit illegally downloading music spent an average of £77 a year on music – £33 more than those who claim that they never download music dishonestly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/illegal-downloaders-spend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

This one's better; got a better write up too that mentions the protagonists by name!

Masstishaddu : Shekinah (remastered CD edition, 1999)

...the remastering job by Colin Potter, Masstishaddhu's Shekinah can be heard again and appreciated for its insanely mystical tone and occult allure. Everything about this release suggests esoteric happenings: the title, the cover, and the music all recall bloodied altars, unfathomable rituals, and mystical learning.

And it's only a click away!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM

Working Musician - might I suggest that any inconsistencies in my approach arise from you misunderstanding what I wrote back there. Fact is bootlegging is part & parcel of the music industry & the most interesting recordings are very often the unofficial ones. Which reminds me, does anyone have a copy of the original radio broadcast of Anthems in Eden they might share with me? Or maybe it's part of the Within Sound sets Pip has linked to...

When I say a lot of us are in a similar position I mean that many of us did records in the past which are no longer available at realistic prices (one I was involved with goes for £100+) and have, therefore, found a place in the blog scene. I find it quite heartening to be honest. Here's a Dark Folk album we did back in 1988 for United Dairies, which actually saw a CD reissue ten years ago in the USA, but I never saw a penny for either, though in both cases I received a few free copies:

Shekinhah : Masstishaddhu : 1988 As one comment has it: This is the most fuckedup abyss of daarkness i've ever heard. Sounds about right!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:01 AM

THTM will remove uploads when an artist complains it's there without permission but it takes a while and even then, there are plenty of selfish users who just put them back up. I mentioned to Pete Coe that some of his back catalogue had been posted (carefully not mentioning that I'd had a sneaky listen) and he was not a bit pleased and got them taken off. Ex-Leader/Trailer artists are up and down with remarkable rapidity and I would imagine that this stems from Celtic keeping a close watch and squealing when ill-gotten gains from their CD-R re-releases might be threatened. This matters not a lot to the artists themselves as they are getting nothing out of it either way, except that "free" downloads could prejudice future legitimate re-releases. What is unforgiveable is the uploading of recordings made from live and outtake performances compliled specifically to circumvent the Celtic impasse and generate income. This is not just unethical - it's theft.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:00 AM

matt, if you're even thinking of suggesting that I might prefer Tony Rose & Tony Capstick dead...

The B*lm*r situation makes things complicated. Nic Jones's first two albums have been reissued on CD - I've got one of them. The selling price is low, the packaging is cheap & I believe the disc itself is a CD-R (it doesn't play on my 1990s CD player); it's a fair bet that, as before, the royalties aren't going to the artist. So if I owe Nic the royalty for my downloaded copy of Nic Jones, presumably I also owe him in respect of my 'legit' Ballads and songs and my tape-of-a-tape Noah's Ark trap.

(I have a plan for dealing with this situation, involving Mollie Music and PayPal. If anyone can find a way to bung a few quid back through time to Tony Capstick, I'm all ears. And if they can dry the bugger out and get him singing again, that'd be good too. Sorry, I've been watching too much Doctor Who.)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM

"A lot of lps come up all the time on ebay and I generally prefer to get them that way."

And original pressings are, in fact, a limited commodity (in the case of some old folk albums, very limited indeed). It is the contrast of the limitless commodity represented by the download, which effectively makes mass consumption possible with little benefit to the artist, and which removes any demand for re-releases which might actually provide some remuneration for the artists, which is morally dubious.

And if the artists/original labels have not approved their music for download, it's bloody rude as well.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:48 AM

just to reiterate, I wasn't suggesting that the albums can be easily bought, I was suggesting that you can contact the *people* who made them remarkably easily these days.

(Assuming they're alive, of course.)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:35 AM

"Tony Rose, On banks of green willow
Nic Jones, The Noah's Ark Trap
Capstick, Burland and Gaughan, Songs of Ewan MacColl

Any suggestions where I can buy these?

The idea that all this stuff is legitimately available is just not true - lots and lots of albums are gone and aren't likely to come back, and scrupulous uploaders like the guy at GJIKMT are doing us all a favour."


The important thing for me is whether or not you've given any of the surviving musicians you mention above any money or not. Or posted a link with a contact email address on the website you used to acquire them, with the suggestion of doing that. (Or even just sent them an email to tell them how much you enjoyed their album - there are other ways of 'paying' people besides giving them cash.)

It sometimes feels on those sites as if some of the users prefer their folkies dead, because it further abstracts the product from having any connection to a producer of it who works and eats and sleeps and does all the things that require money.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM

A lot of lps come up all the time on ebay and I generally prefer to get them that way. For everything else sites like Ceol Álainn are there. In fact I am quite sure whoever runs it outbid me on some of the lps that are up there. I do think it's a service to have Bobby Casey's 'Taking Flight' etc available. There are grey areas though, I know that too.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Working Musician
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:26 AM

That last guest post was me. But as I'm posting as a guest anyway, it doesn't make much sense clearing that up!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd - Surely you can see the difference between Peter Bellamy bootlegging himself and selling it at gigs for his own profit and a website which offers illegal downloads of dozens of artists? Surely, you can see there's a massive leap between those two positions.

Your first line - "I think a lot of us are in similar positions here" if you are implying that a lot of us are in similar positions where we stand on this issue, please, let me make it perfectly clear that I am nowhere near the position you're taking and I can't see many others who are on this topic.

Then you end with a little dig at folk club organisers, folk festival organisers and folk artistes for seemingly all expecting something for nothing. What complete hypocrisy considering what you're advocating is exactly that - something for nothing.

If musicians cannot rely on the support of their fellow musicians even - what hope is there?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:23 AM

Pip, the only thing I'd reiterate, in mitigation of the points you've raised, is the point that Matt made regarding the fact that that comprehensive file sharing of these titles may undermine future official re-issues. And I also think it's not a bad idea, if someone is going to go to the trouble of setting up a file sharing site like the one above, that they include some means of compensating the artists - and even the label, who, after all, invested in the artists and made the original recording available in the first place.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:22 AM

these people are rarely so 'lost' that they can't be found with about 3 clicks of a mouse

Here are a few albums I've acquired without paying:

Tony Rose, On banks of green willow
Nic Jones, The Noah's Ark Trap
Capstick, Burland and Gaughan, Songs of Ewan MacColl

Any suggestions where I can buy these?

The idea that all this stuff is legitimately available is just not true - lots and lots of albums are gone and aren't likely to come back, and scrupulous uploaders like the guy at GJIKMT are doing us all a favour.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:14 AM

Small clarification. I wrote:

At the end of the day it's no different from taping an album you've borrowed from a friend.

What was in my head, but didn't make it to the keyboard, was

it's no different from taping an album which is no longer available that you've borrowed from a friend.

I agree completely with the comments about pirated versions of currently-available albums. Many, many folk albums currently aren't. I've acquired several albums without paying - either by downloading or by borrowing tapes from friends. Is there any other way I could have got hold of those albums? Barring a lucky find in a second-hand shop, no. Will I replace my mp3s with legit CDs, as and when legit CDs become available? Yes, finances permitting.

A great example is the Within Sound box set, which I'd dearly love to own. Unless and until it's reissued, being able to get hold of the tracks which are in the box set and aren't available anywhere else doesn't seem like such a bad thing. (The relevant post is here.)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:08 AM

This site still includes, within the Comments thread below the feature, a link to a free download of Jim Causley's Fruits of the Earth. This seems to actually be a response to the effrontery of Doug Bailey from Wild Goose records sending them a take-down notice and explaining that the album is stiill commercially available.

Nice.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:58 AM

Yes, I agree it's a minefield of conflicting thoughts and feelings.

I admit to not being much of a downloader myself, I have enough to listen to. Sometimes I see people put up stuff for whatever reason of themselves and I think it's all to aggrandise themselves, the old 'look at me how great I am for making this available to you'. I also see people put up stuff for the genuine love of it. And a few shades in between too.

Fact remains that music doesn't exist if it doesn't get heard. And I like to think there's more to playing music than a bit of money changing hands.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:47 AM

I don't really have much patience for the "they got ripped off by record companies anyway" argument.

It's the first thing serial downloaders always say. Fact is, however bad their deals were, they got *some* money out of it.

You mention Peter Bellamy "bootlegging himself". Well quite right too - fair play to him. But the crucial point is he got some money out of it.

What I find is really depressing about the rampant download sites is they way they spew out all this self-righteous cant about 'championing lost figures' but that they never put their money where their mouth is. All too often it's self-serving sophistry anyway - these people are rarely so 'lost' that they can't be found with about 3 clicks of a mouse.

There are so many possibilities with the Internet for re-instituting the kind of convivial, "face-to-face", direct-from-the-maker kind of trade.

Imagine how surprised and pleased one of makers of the albums mentioned above would be to receive an unsolicited payment for an album downloaded without his/her knowledge.

If it happened more often, it would totally alter the antagonistic nature of musicians versus downloaders.

But it would never occur to serial downloaders, who have forgotten there is any people on the end of the abstracted product to consume: just more names on an impossibly hyperinflated iTunes library that would take 20 lifetimes to properly engage with.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:43 AM

Take it from me, pipers rarely get paid.

I meant detractors ofcourse. I was distracted and pre-coffee.

Sometimes I have some misgivings about the site I linked, Ceol Áilainn. On the other hand, most of the artists who's lps are up there never got anything much at all for the initial release. As I said, the downloads are there and it's up to every individual to decide whether or not they want to avail of them. If anyone is going to call in the lawyers, that's their prerogative.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:34 AM

I think a lot of us are in similar positions here; a fair few of my old albums are now freely available on-line in this way, but then again I don't remember getting much money from them back in the day and on this point, and many others, I remain philosphical. I wonder what percentage of each sale Mr Pegg got from And Now it is So Early? anyway? And how many were pressed? 500 perhaps? Or as many as 1000? Which puts it into the realm of the seriously endangered. How many here have even heard of this album, let alone seen a copy? How nice it must be to exist in the realm of Pure Principle alone...

It is well known that Peter Bellamy was reduced to bootlegging his own albums from the Topic & Argo vaults during his lifetime, such was the generally apathy that existed with respect of his singular genius. I have several, bought from his own fair hand at various gigs. I also have in my keeping several audience tapes of Bellamy performances - including the first ten minutes or so of what is quite possibly his last ever gig before his tragically premature passing. The official product was released some months earlier as the Songs & Rummy Conjurin' Tricks cassette, but nice though S&RCT is, he's on much better form on the audience tape. If anyone would like to hear it, I'll put it up on a file-share...

Interesting thread though, if only for what it reveals about the anal-retentions of the folky mindset. I must say, I can't say I'm too surprised, and this despite years of being ripped off by folk club organisers, folk festival organisers and folk artistes - a lot of whom expect something for nothing, but such is the human way!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM

Indeed, Matt. Having a look through the sites I have found a number of recordings by friends of mine, none of whom is getting rich from this music and all of whom deserve to be paid for what they do, regardless of whether the recording is a bootlegged live performance or an out-of-print commercial release. If you claim to love this music, have a bit of respect for the people who make it.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:10 AM

let's try that again more coherently:

you don't have to recognise or agree with the arbitrary contingencies of legality, or their codification via copyright, to recognise the fair exchange of paying somebody for a service they've provided.

Download what you want, from wherever you want it, but make sure you pay the piper.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: alex s
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:10 AM

Pay 'em - they earn little enough these days. Bookings are becoming scarcer and fees are down in many cases.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:08 AM

"Distractors will bring up Copyright issues."

yeah, damn those pesky "distractors". Always "distracting" people by pointing out that they haven't given anything in exchange for what they've been given.

you don't have to be recognise or agree with the arbitrary contingencies of legality, or their codification via copyright, to recognise the moral right of wanting to pay somebody for a service they've provided.

Download what you want, from wherever you want it, but make sure you pay the piper.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:02 AM

it took me precisely 4 seconds to find this link:

http://www.bobpegg.com/nupage1.htm

the page has a phone number and postal address.

So you now know where to post the cheque that will enable you to enjoy the album you have downloaded even more, knowing that you have reimbursed the maker of it for the time, effort and, therefore, money he invested in it.

Of course, as every good anarchist knows, there are plenty of currencies besides money. You could always offer him another service, such as washing his windows. Or perhaps even proselytising to the unconverted on websites such as "Time Has Told Me" about the necessity of paying people for nice things they have done for you, or about how the word "free" has been hijacked by a generation of passive consumer-capitalist couch-potatoes to simply mean "taking everything you want and never giving back anything at all".

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:58 AM

Ceol Álainn is another site of the same sort. Distractors will bring up Copyright issues. The recordings are there anyway. Mostly Irish Traditional from the sixties to eighties.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Working Musician
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:36 AM

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd - It seems to me that Topic are one label who'd have every right to sell deluxe digitally remastered re-edited editions purporting to be an improvement on previous editions. Afterall, Topic, I'd venture to say, are hardly a Pop label (i.e. top 40 / X-Factor) are they? I'd say, that ploughing money back into Topic is almost Charity work! - of course my tongue is in my cheek - but they're one of the good guys, the way I see it.

Of course, one doesn't have to buy it or steal it - one can just leave it well alone - the same way The Beatles in Mono has barely entered my conciousness.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:30 AM

"All this is way off thread. What we want to here here is not (yet more) dreary folk-righteous pontificating on the morality of bootlegging, but a celebratory list of freely available downloads of long out of print albums whose very existence might be considered legendary."

Ooh, I think it's pretty cheeky to claim it's "off-thread" to raise questions about money and copyright in a thread that's been crowing about the wonderfulness of magical "free" albums. And I think you know damn well it is.

That's a disingenuous "we" as well. Speak for yourself mate. I, for one, DON'T want a "celebratory list of freely available downloads of long out of print albums". What's "celebratory" about the fact that the people who made these long out-of-print albums aren't receiving any money from their shiny new digital "availability"?

I do hope you're going to contact the Peggs, and Martin Carthy and the other surviving musicians you mentioned to give them some money. It's ever so slightly more effort than clicking "DL", but it's really not much more so.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:22 AM

PS - Seems odd for a music founded on the bootlegging of Traditional Singers to take such a high attitude to bootlegging in general. It still goes on - The Voice of the People series, and the forthcoming CDs from The Kennedy Archive - material hitherto knocked out on shoddy cassettes & CD-R editions for top-whack. Seems the ideal place for such recordings is on-line, as with the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection - freely available to one and all, with complete notes. But no; we'll get them packaged up in deluxe digitally remastered re-edited editions purporting to be an improvement on the Kennedy editions - and available only to those who are prepared to shell out top-whack all over again...

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

oh and I think it's a disingenuous thread title:

"free rare old folk album downloads"

To describe something as "free" when it's being given away without the authorisation or knowledge of the person who made it is very misleading.

It also encourages a "take without paying" attitude. There's nothing stopping you getting in touch with Bob Pegg, or many of the other names you mention, and giving them a fiver via paypal.

I'd have a lot more patience with unauthorised copyright-infringing download sites if they encouraged people to do so. Or if they had the courage to contact the musicians whose product they distribute. Or if they volunteered to set up paypal accounts for them, or at the very least posted up a link to their website.

they never do. but they do often ask for donations to pay for the webpage space.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

Time Has Told Me has a lot of albums that are still in print.

But more to the point, the argument that just cos something is out-of-print, it's fair game is a bit spurious.

For all they know, a label might be planning on re-issuing an album on CD. It robs labels of the power to reissue things.

I mean, Topic are in the process of reissuing their back catalogue currently. I don't imagine all these websites will scrupulously check their records and take down the links to these albums.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:10 AM

Sorry to disagree with you S'oB.
Many musicians (from many countrys/genres)have been ripped off over many years.
If we just talk about the UK folk scene. Name one artist who earns over 15k a year....?
Downloading for free is just a rip off.
I'm very happy that you have a 28 CD box of Sun Ra recordings....Hurrah!
I've got hundreds of John Peel and Andy Kershaw sessions...So?
Would I release them commercially????? No Bloody Way.
I admit I haven't looked at the sites that have been referred to yet. Maybe I will,but if the name Dave Bulmer or Celtic Music turns up. I will be very angry.
Bootlegging of impecunious artists work (without their agreement) is a despicable act.
End.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 04:55 AM

All this is way off thread. What we want to here here is not (yet more) dreary folk-righteous pontificating on the morality of bootlegging, but a celebratory list of freely available downloads of long out of print albums whose very existence might be considered legendary. How often do you find a vinyl copy of And Now it is So Early? Or else the Standard Library Music LP featuring some choice Third Ear Band sessions recorded in 1968 under the name of the National Balkan Ensemble? I bought the album from Japan years ago, but have since passed it on to fans of the band who wouldn't otherwise get to hear it. It's now quite freely available (along with other rarities) HERE & elsewhere.

In popular music, bootlegs are very much a part of the cultural reality; cherished unofficial recordings of studio demos, radio sessions, & concert recordings are part and parcel of the experience & celebration of the music. Likewise in Jazz - I'm presently on with the 28-CD box set recorded off the mixing desk during a Sun Ra Xmas & New Year residency 1980 / 81. Such recordings capture the wild diversity that exists contrary to the Official Product - they are field-recorded cultural document, a feral archive of wonders that make life just that little bit more worthwhile somehow. Seems odd, therefore, that this aspect of things is almost entirely absent from Revival Folk Music - one can but ponder!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Working Musician
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 04:05 AM

There's been a fair few ding-dongs on Time Has Told Me comments boards regarding the ethics of illegal downloading, in general and from sites such as THTM. Although they have now removed links to Nic Jones downloads (of his readily available recordings) they'll only do it if you spot it and ask them.

I agree absolutely with Ian Anderson's last line -

"They're not the only ones doing this, but I'm annoyed by the way they hide behind the righteous cloak of being "enthusiasts". Enthusiasts have respect and don't steal."

Websites and website such as these seem to be ran by people who love music but have no regard for musicians welfare whatsoever. I'm amazed to see people on Mudcat advocating visiting it and - yikes - defending it.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ian Anderson
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 07:46 PM

The people behind the Time Has Told Me site have a very bad track record in terms of putting stuff up for free downloads without consulting the copyright holders or the performers (whichever is most appropriate)

I can confirm this from personal experience. They're continually having to be asked to take stuff down, some of which is even bad dubs from old vinyl copies when the material is currently available decently on legitimate CD re-issue - and even on releases owned by the artists themselves. The only good thing I can really find to say about them is that they do take the stuff down when asked, but it seems they can't even be bothered to run simple checks to find artists - many of whom are easily traceable these days through the wonders of the internet - to ask first before posting. I was particularly upset to find them putting up a badly dubbed copy of a crap album I did to get out of a major label contract in 1969 and had hoped had vanished without trace. If I wanted it heard again (I don't), I would have made sure it was at least re-mastered properly from the original tapes - and would also have earned something for the indignity!

They're not the only ones doing this, but I'm annoyed by the way they hide behind the righteous cloak of being "enthusiasts". Enthusiasts have respect and don't steal.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 07:16 PM

Hmm...I think I'll do as Don and give it a pass. Thanks, anyway. I'd be steamed if I found someone did this with my brother's symphonic music, even though we haven't been actively producing CDs in a number of years.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

a good percentage of what they offer is currently commercially available

I'm pretty sure that's not the case with GJIKMT - or, for that matter, with the Peggs' Sidney Carter album.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 06:19 PM

I guess I'll pass.

D

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 06:02 PM

Whatever the case, I shouldn't think And Now it is So Early is scheduled for an official CD reissue any time soon - which is a shame because it's a charming little album as anyone will discover if they follow the above link.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Kev Boyd
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Pip Radish wrote: "they're run by enthusiasts and dedicated to putting otherwise unavailable music"

I've never heard of GJIKMT before but I've had issues with THTM for a while as they claim to offer "out of print and rarities" but a good percentage of what they offer is currently commercially available. In at least one instance I'm aware of they've offered a new album by a currently working act within eight months of the official release.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Anne Lister
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

The people behind the Time Has Told Me site have a very bad track record in terms of putting stuff up for free downloads without consulting the copyright holders or the performers (whichever is most appropriate).
Yes, it's great to get a free gift, but please check with the people who came up with the music in the first place as to whether the downloads are legitimate or not.
And the analogy of taping an album you borrowed from a friend is a good one - that's not a legal practice either, and might well be depriving the performers of a sale. Just because it can't be detected or stopped doesn't make it legal or fair. A lot of folk performers depend on sales revenues of their recordings in order to subsidise more recordings. If my friends like albums that I play them, I encourage them to buy their own copies rather than copy mine.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:31 PM

Hi Pip,

That may be philosophically so but here in the States the RIAA doesn't feel the same. People have down loaded recordings to replace stuff they already own and have worn out. Like recording a back up of a bit of software. This practice is at issue.

Before I go adventuring into that website I'd like to know I won't be selling my house to pay for a song about a Shepard.

Don

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM

I can recommend both Time Has Told Me and Good Job I Kept My Turntable - they're run by enthusiasts and dedicated to putting otherwise unavailable music back in circulation. The guy who runs GJIKMT is extremely scrupulous about only making available albums that aren't on sale any more - I've seen him take down links not only to albums but to individual tracks when he's been notified that they're still out there. At the end of the day it's no different from taping an album you've borrowed from a friend.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:16 PM

Nothing is for nothing. I don't go near sites like that

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:13 PM

With all the worry about file sharing of late is this download with out concerns of the file sharing cops?

Don

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 04:53 PM

Look for the small DL - click on it and it'll take you to the download page; choose the Free option. If it's busy, go back & try later!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM

I must be dense. I didn't find anything to click on to listen to...what am I missing or, did I misunderstand? Thanks!