BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:43 AM

To keep to the point

I hope the protest is banned and that they kick that guy out of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM

And getting back to the thread title....


Taken from yesterday's 'Telegraph':



>>>>>>By Christopher Hope, Whitehall Editor
Published: 7:00PM GMT 05 Jan 2010

Comments 116 | Comment on this article


Link to this video The news came as fears rose of a possible violence with right wing demonstrators insisting that they would "defend" the Wiltshire town if the march was given the green light by the police and local council.

Local people also said they would blockade the town to stop the demonstration going ahead.


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Police called to maintain order at Al Muhajiroun meeting Anjem Choudary, the leader of Islam4UK, has caused dismay with plans to parade through the Wiltshire town famous for honouring service personnel killed in Afghanistan, with 500 supporters carrying empty coffins.

On Monday Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, said he would support any request to ban the march. Prime Minister Gordon also declared he was "completely disgusted" at the "abhorrent" protest.

But Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said he would be "surprised" if senior officers in Wiltshire seek to block the protest because any group has a right to march even if their views are "unpleasant and offensive".

He said: "Our view is we will have to deal with it, people have a right to march. People might not like it but that is the law.

"It can be the case that if you ban something it becomes more popular to turn up to. You then have a mass unlawful protest. It will be one that requires pretty clear thinking, but it is far too early really because all we have is the threat of a march."

So far more than 400,000 members have backed a campaign opposing the march on the social networking website Facebook in just a few days.

However a ban can only be enforced in law once the protesters have lodged formally their request for the protest.

Wiltshire Police assistant commissioner Mike Veale was meeting with local council leaders to discuss the march. A Wiltshire Police spokesman said no contact had yet been made from any group wishing to protest through Wootton Bassett.

Marches are banned very infrequently with just one order made last year in Luton. Prior to that the last march to be banned was also in Luton in June 2006.

Yesterday local people on the streets of the Wiltshire town reacted angrily at the prospect of the demonstration. They said it would taint the town's non-political image when they just want to pay their respects to the war dead.

Jane Read, 48, said: "I don't think it's right they should protest in Bassett. I'd barricade the street to stop them coming through if I needed to. All we want to do is honour our war heroes. They shouldn't be using the town for their own purposes."

Reg Hulme, 66, agreed. He said: "It would taint the town with bad blood. It's obscene and I don't think it should go ahead."

Another resident Alan Bennett, 65, said: "It's probably a publicity stunt." Sheila Pickett, 73, added: "I don't agree with it all. I don't see why they should come here."

The Union flag-draped coffins carrying Rifleman Aidan Howell and Sapper David Watson were driven through Wootton Bassett, in Wiltshire, for their repatriation.

Sapper Watson, 23, of 33 Engineer Regiment - a bomb disposal expert - and Rifleman Howell, 19, of 3rd Battalion the Rifles, were killed in Afghanistan in the last week of December.

Friends of Rifleman Howell, Steven Stratford and Pete Bell, criticised Islam4UK for suggesting Wootton Bassett as a venue for the march.

"If they want to protest they should do it in London against the Government, not here. Wootton Bassett is where the soldiers come back, all of them, as heroes," said Mr Stratford. Mr Bell said: "If they came to protest here there would be carnage."

The news came as supporters of the English Defence League said they would "defend wooton bassett from islamic extremists" [sic]. In a discussion on the Facebook website they said they would "not allow this to happen".

The group made a "genuine offer" to Mr Choudary offering to give him money to quit the UK and "relocate to a country (such as Saudi Arabia) that practices Sharia law. Britain isn't for you, you dont like it here, our western culture disgusts you." [sic]

There was also opposition from local Muslims in Wiltshire, with the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural Centre asking the police not to allow a planned march through Wootton Bassett to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said he would cancel the march if the Prime Minister accepted an offer to a televised debate with banned extremist Omar Bakri.

Mr Bakri, living in exile in the Lebanon, has branded British troops 'murderers' and said there was strong support for the march to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said: "If he agrees to that I will cancel the procession. Mr Brown can do it in TV studios in Britain to speak to Bakri in Beirut. If he really believes this is about the freedom of democracy he can have a debate about it."

Bakri, speaking from the Lebanon, said he would be happy to discuss the issues of Afghanistan and Iraq with Brown via a TV link up.

He admitted the Wootton Bassett march was a "publicity stunt" to drum up public debate about the illegality of the conflicts.

It also emerged that MPs from across the Commons have signed a motion urging action Mr Johnson and local authorities to prevent the march, which they said would be "a gross mark of disrespect to the soldiers that have died or been wounded".

Last night the council and local police said in a joint statement that no application to march had been received from Islam4UK.

A spokesman said: "It is the intention of Wiltshire Police to mount a proportionate response to any proposed march by any organisation.

"If the police reasonably believe that a procession may result in serious disorder, serious damage or serious disruption to the life of the community, the police may impose conditions with regard to the time, date and specific circumstances of the march."

However if these conditions were not considered yo be "sufficient to prevent serious public disorder, an application would be made, to Wiltshire Council, for a prohibition order. The consent of the Home Secretary is also required".
<<<<<<<<

Youtube Wootton Bassett interview

There is also a link to Gordon Brown talking about this on the Telegraph page, but I can't get the link to it to work properly...sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:36 AM

AsCarol says, there is no evidence of domestic violence being greater among certain ethnic groups (even westerners Lox).
Re honour killings, 12 may be the tip of an iceberg.
Police estimate at least 12 are dying each year in the UK but others will be hidden – forced suicides and murders made to look like suicide are widely believed to take place undetected. Women aged 16-24 from Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi backgrounds are three times more likely to kill themselves than the national average for that age and it is impossible to tell what pressures some must have been under. And for every woman who dies, it seems certain that there are many, many more living with honour-based abuse and hidden away in shuttered communities.
The full Guardian article is here.http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/oct/25/honour-killings-victims-domestic-violence
It makes clear that it is not just a Muslim problem, but all the examples given are.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

Oh, come on, Carol...it's incredibly rare for men to be stoned..

Lox, I didn't say the first video was about Iran, but it is about what happens withinand because of some of the beliefs of Islam.

And yes, I know 'The Prince & I' was set in Saudi, but many of the incidences in there also happen in other parts of the Middle East.

It's a brilliant book, although sadly a true story..written by a German Nanny who went to care for the grandson of the ruler of Saudi...Written around the time I was working in Harley Street, when nearly all of our patients were from the Middle East, so I identify very much with so much of what she wrote.

When her favourite Princess was stoned to death for running away with the man she loved, it shocked her to the core of her being and broke her heart and she left Saudi feeling she could not live amongst people who would behave in this barbaric way. She was desperately fond of her young charge and had come to be very much a part of the family within the Women's Palace...but when she discoverd that Prince Mohammed had ordered the death of his beloved Mishaal, that was it, she left there and then, writing her book later. At the time it came out it caused many waves of anger, because it told the truth and opened up the world of what was happening over there....

Young Mishaal was taken to the village square and stoned to death. Her lover (whom she had loved for years, despite her arranged and lovelss marriage) was beheaded.

Prince Mohammed was left with no alternative but to order her death, as he knew there would be outrage if she were excused the punishment that many other women had been sentenced to.

What shocked her most was that Princess Moudi, who was the mother of Prince Saud (whom she called Susu), the little baby she cared for, so accepted Mishaal's death, stating that Mishaal had brought disgrace upon the family and had known what the outcome would be. And Moudi had watched her die, despite being so desperately fond of her.

Would the man have been beheaded if he had not run away with a member of the Royal Family? Who knows.......

I can only begin to imagine the terror that anyone must feel about being stoned to death, let alone the agony of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:15 AM

"Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims."

This is a Roy Chubby Brown 'Joke/Observation'.


Paddy ... I mean Roger ... (woops) ... proves a point I made in a previous thread about Racist humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims.

This is a popular racist lie. Anyone with half a brain can find out for themself that there is absolutely no truth whatever to this piece of racist hate mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:02 AM

Paddy also only focuses on Muslim honor killings and either is not concerned about or is unaware of those that are committed by other groups. Seems to me if honor killings are bad, people would be just as concerned about those that are committed by other groups besides Muslims, but apparently, they are not. Apparently it's only Muslim honor killings people care about.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims.
Mr. Choudry should leave from the UK. We aren't a Muslim country.
He must obviously go where he feels welcome, and at ease, and his beliefs are those of the country in which he settles.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:56 AM

Hello "Paddy"

Can you provide any examples of honour killings by Moslems in Ireland in the last ... say ... 10,000 years?

That should be a wide enough span for you to find something.

Perhaps a link or a citation?


Ideally not one from the BNP website (its just that we've had a lot of those lately)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:55 AM

Lizzie, all of the statistics I have seen show that the percentages of women who experience domestic abuse are the same for all of the three major monotheistic religions. None of them is any better or worse than the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:50 AM

It's not only women who have been stoned to death in Iran for adultery. Men have been too. The government of Iran placed a moratorium on the practice in 2002, and again in 2008 after a man was stoned to death in a remote province.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/2507499/Iran-suspends-execution-by-stoning.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM

The second video is much better thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy 'Ginger' Galvin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:39 AM

There is a lot of truth in what you say Keith. I am just back from visiting family in Dublin and Tralee. When I was there the Guards dealt with the second honour killing of muslim women within three months.
When I was living around Manchester it wasn't uncommon.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:36 AM

Lizzie ...


1. Your film isn't about Iran.

Looks like Somewhere in east Africa.

Interestignly It does clearly state that Stoning is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran as a form of punishment.

So stoning is cultural not religious anyway.

Not the best evidence.


2. your book ... the Prince and I ... isn't about Iran.

It's set in Saudi Arabia.

Again, not the best evidence.


Looks like I'll just have to make do with my testimony from Shi'ite women.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

Stoning of Iranian Women - Youtube


Amnsety International has caused for this to be stopped...

So, do you think the Iranians will listen, Carol?


We do not stone our women here, we do not treat them in such an appalling ways.

We, here in the West, are seen as equal to men. We have human rights, we are seen as human, in the first place.

I'm sure there are some very happily married, and treasured, Iranian women. Sadly, there are many who are not and they do not have a choice of freedom. They have only a living death sentence of abuse, from their husbands and from their community.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

This is the kind of positive nationalism (with a stronger more-democratic United Nations) the world needs...

Poem 216 of 230: FOR PEACE

Reading of warred Afghanistan
    And its people's book, the Koran,
This bombarded generation
    Should, for peace, rebuild a nation
Involving one state/one culture -
    Living by the one native-law.
And, for peace in the Holy Lands,
    Three states bordered, for three faiths' hands.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:26 AM

No one can say that all Iranian women are treated well. But no one can say that all non-Muslim women in Britain are treated well by their non-Muslim British husbands, either.

But Iranian women don't have the mindset that Peter K describes as a general rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

Sorry, got my books muddled there....the young princess is in 'The Prince & I'....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:19 AM

Again, if you feel that all Iranian women are treated well, then read 'Not Without My Daughter'...or watch the film of the book, with Sally Field in. Read how the young Princess was stoned to death, purely for wanting to be with the man she loved.


The Stoning of Adulteresses (note that this doesn't happen to the men)


Yeah...lovely way to treat women, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:49 AM

Here's your answer Keith.



    "Domestic violence costs the lives of more than 2 women every week."



Thats more than a hundred a year.



Bloody westerners!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:42 AM

I notice the article doesn't give numbers for how many honor killings involve Muslims. You have just assumed that all honor killings are committed by Muslims, haven't you, Keith?

Honor killings are not a problem only with Muslims. Other groups do it also. You only hear about Muslims doing it, though, because it serves the interests of some people to spread hate towards Muslims, and those who need a group to scapegoat are extremely willing to help them do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:36 AM

How many women in your country are killed each year by husbands, fathers, and boyfriends who are not Muslim? I'm guessing more than 12.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:15 AM

We have about 12 honour killings of muslim women every year in UK.
They are women and girls killed by husbands, fathers or brothers.
They would probably have preferred life, I think.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_1.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:49 PM

I recently engaged in an exchange of ideas and views with a Shi'ite Moslem on the subject of Iran who missed Iran terribly for the status and respect that women enjoy there.

I am not saying that Iran treats women better, I am saying that a Shi'ite woman thinks so.

The rest of our conversation was so interesting and honest that I had no reason to doubt her for a second.

Certainly I have met many young Sunni Moslem Women who are proud of and derive great succour from their role within Islam.

Many see western women as being slaves of vanity and victims of corporate social propaganda concerning how women are supposed to look and behave, both of which involve a degree of self abuse, both physically, emotionally and spiritually.


There are many Moslem women who would see Islam as being a route by which western women could achieve otherwise elusive happiness.


As carol says, it is important to ask people how they feel before speaking for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:49 PM

slap and tickle, fair passion,texas queen,american light, elusive quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:45 PM

"From Princesses to Peasants....

I also dealt with interpreters, accountants, Embassy Officials of different countries.

I got to know the sharks and the kittens of the Middle East. I got to know a whole mini Middle East society.

I talked to body guards (with their guns) and to Heads of State, who would come to see us after hours....when we 'mere women' were told to remain in our office, as the Ruler of Oman did not want to see us.
Of course, I always made sure I walked straight into the waiting room, and said good evening to them all....

I bartered, I argued, I cuddled, I uplifted, I offered my shoulder to cry on.

I had Princesses giggling in my office, because men were outside...and I dealt with the deeply unhappy beaten wives, who spent their summers 'doing Europe' searching for the cure from an illness they didn't have, because the illness was the beatings they had to endure. Their summer appointments were their one respite.

I spent Ramadan at the Saudi Health Office, patiently trying to explain to the crooked regime there that yes, they did owe Mr.Phelps Brown well over £100,000 for patients seen in just a few months...and I rebuffed the 'You show me some honey, and I'll show you the money' request from their bastard of a slimey Chief Accountant....

I was friends with Bassim and Hisham who always looked after me when I disappeared into the Embassies...and I worked out pretty fast that the Kuwaitis were lovely people, as were the Egyptians...The Qatari's pretty much did as they were told, the Libyans were pretty darn loopy and papered their Embassy walls with Harley St. bills which they never did pay...The Saudi Health Office eventually rumbled their crooked accountant...and years later he was returned to Saudi, in disgrace...Dr. Juma Bilal and Dr. Solomon, both heads of the United Arab Emirates Embassy were also friends of mine..Juma in particular was a real sweetiepie, who went out his way to inform me that the Saudi Health Office were telling lies about the doctor I worked for..

The womenn called me 'Habibi' and loved the fact I wore kohl on my eyes...and we'd laugh and joke, or mop up tears, whatever needed doing in their lives....

I learnt also that most Arab men felt that most Western women were/are sluts...and treated them accordingly. I never flirted with any of them, never gave them cause to treat me with anything, other than respect."
and you say you can build a new high speed railway for 33 billion.
can you tell me who will win the 3 .50 at kempton tomorrow.
you have five runners,here they are.
        43-22-        
Ajjaadd

b g Elusive Quality (USA) - Millstream (USA)

4, 9-13 (28) (Katy & Lol Pratt) (Drawn 2)
        

T Powell

S Drowne
2                0302-        
American Light

b g Statue Of Liberty (USA) - Break Of Dawn (USA)

4, 9-13 (26) (Tick Tock Partnership) (Drawn 5)
        

D M Simcock

M Lane (3)
3                        
Slap And Tickle

b f Exceed And Excel (AUS) - Common Rumpus (IRE)

4, 9-8 (Lucky Seven Stable) (Drawn 3)
        

S C Williams

W Carson (3)
4                63-        
Fair Passion

b f Trade Fair (GB) - United Passion (GB)

3, 8-7 (65) (Angie Conway / Whiteman Partnership) (Drawn 1)
        

D Shaw

Hayley Turner
5                3833-        
Texas Queen

b f Shamardal (USA) - Min Asl Wafi (IRE)

3, 8-7 (12) (Mr M Channon) (Drawn 4)
        

M R Channon

C Catlin

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

"John MacKenzie and Lizzie Cornish are both displaying a complete ingnorance of how women think in Islamic societies."


Peter, for nearly 10 years I worked in Harley Street, back in the 70s, when the people of the Middle East had no hospitals of their own, or only a very few. The pavements of London at that time, were thronged with black. There I came into contact with thousands, (over the years) of women, of all ages, from all parts of the Middle East.   

From Princesses to Peasants....

I also dealt with interpreters, accountants, Embassy Officials of different countries.

I got to know the sharks and the kittens of the Middle East. I got to know a whole mini Middle East society.

I talked to body guards (with their guns) and to Heads of State, who would come to see us after hours....when we 'mere women' were told to remain in our office, as the Ruler of Oman did not want to see us.
Of course, I always made sure I walked straight into the waiting room, and said good evening to them all....

I bartered, I argued, I cuddled, I uplifted, I offered my shoulder to cry on.

I had Princesses giggling in my office, because men were outside...and I dealt with the deeply unhappy beaten wives, who spent their summers 'doing Europe' searching for the cure from an illness they didn't have, because the illness was the beatings they had to endure. Their summer appointments were their one respite.

I spent Ramadan at the Saudi Health Office, patiently trying to explain to the crooked regime there that yes, they did owe Mr.Phelps Brown well over £100,000 for patients seen in just a few months...and I rebuffed the 'You show me some honey, and I'll show you the money' request from their bastard of a slimey Chief Accountant....

I was friends with Bassim and Hisham who always looked after me when I disappeared into the Embassies...and I worked out pretty fast that the Kuwaitis were lovely people, as were the Egyptians...The Qatari's pretty much did as they were told, the Libyans were pretty darn loopy and papered their Embassy walls with Harley St. bills which they never did pay...The Saudi Health Office eventually rumbled their crooked accountant...and years later he was returned to Saudi, in disgrace...Dr. Juma Bilal and Dr. Solomon, both heads of the United Arab Emirates Embassy were also friends of mine..Juma in particular was a real sweetiepie, who went out his way to inform me that the Saudi Health Office were telling lies about the doctor I worked for..

The womenn called me 'Habibi' and loved the fact I wore kohl on my eyes...and we'd laugh and joke, or mop up tears, whatever needed doing in their lives....

I learnt also that most Arab men felt that most Western women were/are sluts...and treated them accordingly. I never flirted with any of them, never gave them cause to treat me with anything, other than respect.

And I still have the beautiful scarf Sheikh Assaf gave me, the Worry Beads that Mr. Ali Bin Ali gave me, which he held to his heart...

The women interpreters told me much about their countries, about their lives....

I have always loved people from the Middle East...and I got to know many of them...but I also know that many of the men think very differently to western men...treat their women differently....see women as belonging to them.

I saw the spoilt Princesses, doing their European Tours of doctors and hospital appointments, filling their days with buying Western clothes to wear at home, inside their palaces, or going to Harrods...dropping gold bracelets to the 'peasants' (me) from their grandfather, Sheikh Al-Thani, the wise old man of Qatar...

I watched the Arab women walking behind their men, hidden in their black outfits, their leather masks hiding all but their beautiful eyes...and how their eyes betrayed their lives....sometimes sparkling, but so often like Alice's Puddle, telling of never ending tears....

So don't tell me that I don't know about people from the Middle East...because I have a strong affinity with them...I held their babies, held their hands, held their souls, whatever they needed most.

There *are* some women who prefer to hide behind their robes. There are many who do not. Women should be free to be who they want to be..not forced to wear burkhas all their lives, or have acid poured on their faces purely for wanting to become educated..

May I politely suggest you also read 'The Prince and I' and 'Not Without My Daughter' for an insight into how women are treated in Arab society...

Inshallah...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Peter K, where do you get your information about how women in Islamic societies think? I don't think that applies in all Islamic societies. I know it doesn't apply in Iran, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

John MacKenzie and Lizzie Cornish are both displaying a complete ingnorance of how women think in Islamic societies. Many such women - I would say most - believe that women are inferior to their men. They actually prefer to shroud themselves from public gaze and feel comfortable and secure when so dressed. For them it is perfectly reasonable that a husband may have four wives (so long as he has the means to maintain four households.)

They see nothing paradoxical in a convention in Shia communities whereby any man convicted of rape is required to marry his victim. If you point out that such a requirement is likely to be abhorrent to the victim, they will respond that "she should have thought about that," believing that such victims have invariably contributed to their own misfortune.

Likewise many people of both genders in the middle-east regard democracy as an alien and suspect method of governance and are much more comfortable with (often royal) dictatorships. Thus there is a widespread view in the region that Saddam was a good leader. The logic behind that was a belief (albeit misguided) that his murderous excesses would not reach them,f and a majority did manage to live reasonable lives. They compare that with the alternative that has been thrust upon them - many hundreds of thousands killed almost indiscrimately, and relatively stable (and sometimes west-leaning) countries massively distabilised by the influx of displaced Iraqis. (In Jordan's case, for instance, more than two million have been absorbed into a country that had a population of less than one million.)

Such thinking may be a million miles away from attitudes that prevail in the west, but it is deep-seated and the west should by now have found better ways to deal with it than by waging wasteful and brainless wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:02 PM

You asked me what I would have us do in Afghanistan, and then you criticized me for answering the question as you asked it. My answer was and still is that I would have us do whatever the people of Afghanistan want us to do. I would go even further and say that I would have us do whatever the women of Afghanistan say they want us to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie - PM
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

So Carol, what would you have us do in Afghanistan?

Sorry Carol, I meant this post, which amounts to the same thing, almost.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

John, please show me where you asked me what would happen if we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:23 PM

Rhetorical reply Lox. What I said im[plied that listening to them changed nothing, not that I didn't listen. Please read what I posted.

Carol, circular argument, it started with my asking you what will happen if we leave, you haven't answered the question.
You have told me what you would like to happen, I have told you it is unlikely to happen, given the status, or lack of status of women, in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:19 PM

Rhetorical reply Lox. What I said im[plied that listening to them changed nothing, not that I didn't listen. Please read what I posted.

Carol, circular argument, it started with my asking you what will happen if we leave, you haven't answered the question.
You have told me what you would like to happen, I have told you it is unlikely to happen, given the status, or lack of status in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

"No good me or you listening to them Carol"

How can you possibly know unless you have heard what they have to say?

Its like saying: - no point in me looking in that dictionary, I don't know what any of those words even mean ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

It certainly does if what they say they want is for our militaries to leave their country (which is what they are saying).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM

No good me or you listening to them Carol, we don't live in their country. What we think or say, doesn't affect their situation one whit

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:07 PM

John, I suggest that you listen to this...

http://www.miptalk.com/?p=325

This woman is a feminist and a human rights and women's rights activist. She spent time with the women in Afghanistan listening to what they had to say about what they want. And she brought a petition back with here, with their signatures, that she gave to President Obama. If we really care about what the women of Afghanistan want, we need to listen to and take heed of what they have to say. Listen to the talk in that link I provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM

They were never listened to before Carol. I'm not sure you have got the right idea regarding the second class citizen status that most Moslem women have to endure. They have no voice, they are owned by their husbands/fathers, and they have no rights, under the laws of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

John, if you have read any of my posts in this thread, you will know that I am saying that we need to listen to what the women in Afghanistan are saying they want.


No, Villan, and I have said numerous times that I condemn it. But it is a response to imperialism and in the case of Israel, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, so regardless of how I feel about it, it's not going to go away until the imperialism, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are stopped. Stopping these things is the only way to save the lives of those innocent women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

>>What I find utterly despicable is sending women and children into groups of innocent people and blowing themselves up.

I get so angry that anybody could allow such a thing to happen, no matter what group they are.<<

Have you no comment CarolC or are you using the politicians way out. Just avoid it.

Its utterly despicable and there is no excuse in the world for it.

Do you condone it CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Well that's almost certainly what will happen Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM

Why would you say that, John? Please show me any post of mine that would lead a reasonable person to suggest that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:08 PM

By the way, Lizzie, it has been established that most of the claims of the government of Israel that they were only targeting houses with weapons being stored in them have been shown to be false. And the government of Israel itself admitted that they were targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure for the purpose of punishing the people of Gaza and making them suffer.

You actually support the very kind of people you say you hate. You support people who kill innocent civilians, including women and children, for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with self defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM

I think you mean, let the men of Afghanistan decide what is best. With no input from the women of course.
Don't you Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:00 PM

John, I think we should let the people of Afghanistan decide what should be done.

That woman is not a reporter, Lizzie. She is a women's rights activist who has spent time living among and advocating for the women she is speaking for. She has done what no one else has done, not even your government... she has made it possible for their voices to be heard. All your government (and mine) has done is cram our own agendas down their throats.

But as I said, you don't really give a crap about what the women of Afghanistan want. You only care about what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM

"knowing that Israel will target those houses to stop her own people from being killed...and then they'll get a bad press about it..."

Oh yes, poor old Israel - the innocent victim in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

Sorry, my darn compooter went wizzy again...

As I was saying....

In my book, they're all as bad as one another..and to support any scum who pour acid onto the faces of young girls is abhorrent. Ask *those* young women what they think of the men who rule their lives, Carol.

I don't want to hear it from some American reporter...I want to hear it from the young women who've been scarred for life, who are forced to wear outfits some of them loathe, who have hard, punishing lives....

And as Villan said above...the cowards who now use women and children as suicide bombers in war, are the lowest of the low, second only to those who store their weapons in the houses of families, knowing that Israel will target those houses to stop her own people from being killed...and then they'll get a bad press about it...

It's all a clever game to these men.   They don't give a damn about the suffering of the innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:36 PM

I watched the video, Carol. Apparently the Taliban aren't as bad as the War Lords because they merely imprison them, rather than rape them, she said...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

So Carol, what would you have us do in Afghanistan?