Lyr Req: Red River Shore / New River Shore

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red River Shore
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:15 PM

Must learn to close those < things.

Lyr. Add: NEW RIVER SHORE
PNFQ (in Fife and Fife)

1
At the foot of yonder mountain where often lay snow,
Amusements containing, while a pleasant wind blow;
I spied a fair damsel and she I adore,
She was a-walking on the New River shore.
2
Says I, "Pretty fair miss, can you fancy me?
My fortune's not great" - "That's nothing," said she:
"Your beauty is enough and you I adore,
And you I will marry on the New River shore."
3
As soon as her old father came this for to hear,
He swore he would part her from her dearest dear;
He sent her away where loud cannons did roar,
And left this young man on the New River shore.
4
She wrote him a letter containing these lines,
"If you'll look in the letter, these words you will find:
I'll come back again and you I adore,
And you I will marry on the New River shore."
5
As soon as her old father came this news to hear,
He still vowed he'd part her from her dearest dear;
He gathered a company of twenty or more,
To fight this young man on the New River shore.
6
He drew his broad sword and he waved it around,
Until seven out of twenty lay dead on the ground;
He wounded five more and wounded them full sore,
Thus gained his true love on the New River shore.

A. A. and a. S. Fife, 1969 (1982 Bramhall House reprint), pp. 160-161, with musical score, from MS. Coll. of the Pacific Northwest Farm Quad., Spokane, WA.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red River Shore
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:09 PM

The version posted by rich r, 24 June 99, seems to have been taken from J. Frank Dobie, 1927, Ballads and Songs of the Frontier Folk, PTFLS (Proc. Texas Folk Lore Society), pp. 158-159.

Two verses have been slightly changed:
Verse 6-
I drew my six-shooter, shooting round after round,
Till six men were wounded and seven were down,
No use of an army of twenty and four,
I'm bound for my true love on Red River shore.
Verse 1-
Repeated after verse 6.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red River Shore
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:03 PM

My footnote to the previous post:

The editor of the book "Anecdotes, poetry,...etc." seems to take it for granted that the diarist William H. Landreth composed the song (or poem) himself. The index entry for that song says:

"The new river shore, a ballad, by W. H. Landrith [sic], [page] 180"

I doubt it. More likely, he took it down from the singing of a fellow soldier. The incongruous last verse is enough evidence that the song has already been folk-processed.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE NEW RIVER SHORE (from Landreth)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM

From Anecdotes Poetry and Incidents of the War: North and South. 1860-1865. collected and arranged by Frank Moore (New York: Publication Office, Bible House, 1867), page 180-181:


WAIFS AND ESTRAYS.—After the retreat of Shelby's force from Boonville, Mo. A small bundle of papers was picked up on the street, left there by some systematic and sentimental Confederate in his hasty flight. First among the bundle was the log-book, containing a succinct diary of events, belonging to a rebel soldier....

THE NEW RIVER SHOOR—A BALLAD.

1. At the foot of yon Montain wher fountain do flow,
there is music to entertain me whar Plesent wind blow;
there I spide a fair Damsel, a girl I a doar,
as she was a Walking on the new river Shoar.

[That's enough of that! It's too hard to type—my Autocorrect keeps correcting it, and it's not worth the trouble to change it back. From here on I will use standard spelling. Anyway, the following will be easier to find with a search engine.--JD]

THE NEW RIVER SHORE—A BALLAD.

1. At the foot of yon mountain where fountains do flow,
There is music to entertain me where pleasant winds blow;
There I spied a fair damsel, a girl I adore,
As she was a-walking on the New River shore.

2. I asked her right kindly could she fancy me
Although my fortune is not great. "That's nothing," said she.
"Your beauty is enough and it is you I adore.
And it is you I will marry on the New River shore."

3. As soon as her old father, this same came to hear,
He swore he would deprive me of my dearest dear.
He sent me away where loud cannon do roar
And left my dear true love on the New River shore.

4. She wrote me a letter, and in this letter, these lines,
And in this letter, these words you may find:
"Come back, my dear jewel, for it is you I adore
And it is you I will marry on the New River shore."

5. I perused this letter; I perused it most sad.
There was none in that company could make my heart glad.
I drew out my broadsword and onward did go
To meet my dear true love on the New River shore.

6. As soon as her old father, the same came to hear,
He swore he would deprive me of my dearest dear.
He raised him an army full twenty or more,
To fight a young soldier on the New River shore.

7. I drew out my broadsword and wavered [sic] it round.
[There seems to be a line missing here.]
"There is no use, my little army, that you all know,
To fight a young soldier on the New River shore."

8. So hard is the conquest of all womankind!
They always have ruled; they['re?] always confined.
They have children to squall and a husband to scold,
Makes many young lasses look weathered and old.

—W. H. L. [=William H. Landreth]


[The above-cited book contains a wealth of information for re-enactors and collectors of Civil-War songs, etc.]

Subject: Lyr. Add: New River Shore 2
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 05:28 PM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red River Shore
From: Richie
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM

Hi,

John A. Lomax collected Red River Shore for the Library of Congress from Mrs. Minta Morgan of Bells, Texas, in 1937.

A different version appeared in Cowboy Songs and other frontier Ballads in 1938 from Slim Critchlow, Utah Buckaroos, Salt Lake City, Utah.

Rcihie

Subject: DTADD: New River Shore
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 01:58 PM

Here's "New River Shore." It's quite different from the Red River version, but it's easy to see that they're the same song. Note that rich R has another version of "New River shore" hidden above (click).
-Joe Offer-

---

THE NEW RIVER SHORE

1 At the foot of yonders mountain
Where the tide ebbs and flows,
Where the red roses are budding
And the pleasant winds blow,

2 'Tis there I spied the girl
That I do adore
As she was a-walking
On the New River shore.

3 I stept away to her;
I says, 'Will you marry me?
'My portion is too small, sir.'
'No matter,' said he.

4 'Your beauty does please nie
And I ask nothing more.
And will you go with me
From the New River shore?'

5 So when her old father
These words came to hear
He said, 'I will deprive you
Of your dearest dear.

6 'I will send him away
Where the loud cannon roar,
And will leave you lamenting
On the New River shore.'

7 He raised for him an army
Of sixty and four
To fight her old father
On the New River shore.

8 He drew out his sword
And he waved it around
Till twenty and four
Lay dead on the ground

9 And the rest of tile number
Lay bleeding in gore,
And he gained his own true love
On the New River shore.

10 Now Pollie is married;
She lives at her ease,
She goes when she wants to,
Comes back when she pleases.

11 Now Pollie is married,
She lives in renown;
She is the grandest lady
In Baltimore town.


'New River Shore.' Reported by L. W. Anderson as collected by Delma Haywood from Mrs. Sallie Meekins of Colington, Albemarle Sound.


from the Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore, Volume II

---

In this message (click), Jean Ritchie says she recalls hearing a song called "New River Shore" sung to something like the tune of "Slane" (Be Thou My Vision). Here's the tune from the Frank C. Brown Collection. Can't say it works for me, but I can't figure how "Slane" would work, either.

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM

Adding a bit of documentation to Rich R's post of 24 Jum 99, the version A from Fife posted by Rich R was obtained from J. Frank Dobie, "Ballads and Songs of the Frontier Folk," Pub. Texas Folklore Society, and re-printed in Fife and Fife with permission of the Society.

Printed in parallel with it in the Fifes' volume, text B, "New River Shore," was from the manuscript collection of The Pacific Northwest Farm Quad, Spokane, WA. This song is also included in Rich R's post of 24 June 99.
These references are not mentioned in the Traditional Ballad Index entry.

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 01:06 PM

This appears to be the primary thread on "Red River Shore," but there are a number of posts about the song in this Pretty Saro thread. Looks like I'll have to do a bit of reading to figure out the relationship with "Pretty Saro."
-Joe Offer-

---

Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index:

New River Shore, The (The Green Brier Shore; The Red River Shore) [Laws M26]

DESCRIPTION: The singer is forced to leave his sweetheart (possibly due to manipulation by her parents). She begs that he return. When he does, he is ambushed by a band of men hired by her father. He wins the battle and goes on to claim the girl
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1927
KEYWORDS: separation love fight
FOUND IN: US(Ap,NE,SE) Canada(Mar)
REFERENCES (6 citations):
Laws M26, "The New River Shore (The Green Brier Shore; The Red River Shore)"
BrownII 85, "New River Shore" (1 text)
Lomax-FSNA 206, "The Red River Shore" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax-ABFS, p. 412, "Red River Shore" (1 text)
Fife-Cowboy/West 57, "Red River Shore" (2 texts, 1 tune)
DT 329, GRNBRIER* GRNBRIR2*
RECORDINGS:
Patt Patterson & Lois Dexter, "On the Red River Shore" (on Conqueror 7711, 1931; on MakeMe)
Art Thieme, "The Red River Shore" (on Thieme04 -On the Wilderness Road, Folk-Legacy Records)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Earl Brand" [Child 7]
cf. "Erlinton" [Child 8]
Notes: The title implies a relationship to "The Girl on the Greenbriar Shore," but the plot is noticeably different. One rather suspects that the latter piece is a fragment rebuilt almost from scratch (and then, perhaps, further modified by the Carter Family). - RBW
File: LM26

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:58 PM

Art, we are all alike. If it ain't writ down in front of me, it may as well be lost. In any case, it allowed me to add a few more verses to an old song; there are probably even better verses out there that we don't have yet. There should be a bawdy version, if cowboys really sang it.

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:53 PM

And in the "PRETTY SARO" thread, I somehow said that my version of the song "Red River Shore" was from Ms Minta Morgan of Balls, Texas. That was a typo!! She was from Bells, Texas.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:36 PM

Again, people, I'm sorry I forget so damn often and repeat myself in these threads. It's part of my malady and that's no joke. Thanks for your patience.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 06:41 PM

The version in John and Allan Lomax, Cowboy and Other Frontier Ballads, 1938 (and later) eds., pp. 181-183, differs in some verses from the extended version offered by Rich r.
The first three verses are the same. Verse 4:

Her cruel old father did thus interfere,
Saying he would deprive her of the dearest so dear;
He would send him away where the cannon do roar
Away from his true love on the Red River shore.

Verse 5 ("She wrote me a letter ...") is the same as verse 4 in Rich r, Verse 6:

I read this letter through till it made my heart sad,
And none of my fellows could make my heart glad;
Now I'm not used to stoppin', and you may be sure,
I'm bound for my true love on the Red River shore.

Verse 7 is essentially the same as verse 5 in rich r except that the fight will be on the Red River shore (not New River; a little confusion with a genetic predecessor here). Verse 8:

I drew my six-shooter, spun around and around,
Till six men were wounded and seven were down.
No use for an army of twenty and four;
I'm bound for my true love on the Red River shore.

(Again, Red River, not New River, shore). Verse 9 is the one added by harpgirl, above. Verse 10:

Hard luck in the world for all womankind;
To those who are single the world o'er I find-
Confined with their parents until they are wives,
And stay with their husbands the rest of their lives.

These additions are occasioned by a post by Art Thieme to the thread "Info on Pretty Saro:" Pretty Saro
In an answer to his post, the version on the Max Hunter website, sung by Mrs. Lucy Quigley, Arksansas, is also recommended. The cowboy used a Winchester in her song, a more effective weapon than a six-shooter. Red River Shore

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 12:23 AM

Art, my guilt tells me it counts..but what the hay!. and some OOO's too, back at ya! Abbynormal

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 12:03 AM

No recent affairs, sad to say---unless you count a cyber one Ms. Harp

XXX

Art

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 11:32 PM

Rich beat me to it Art, but the last verse in the Lomax book goes
Such is the fortune of all womankind
Thery are always controlled, they are always made mind
Controlled by their parents until they are wives
Then slaves of their husbands the rest of their lives...
leukoencephalopathy just munches on your short term memory anyway so you would rapidly forget any recent affairs you might engage in!!! *grin* YSA...harp

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 09:49 PM

Ain't it nice to be reassured, Art? Thanks, rich r!

By the way, folks, I didn't mean to steer any of you away from Art's recording of the song! Far from it. Shucks, I was the one who urged him to record for Folk-Legacy. I'd met Art in Chicago when he was still a pup, but didn't realize what a super presenter of traditional songs he had become until I heard him again when Lisa Null brought him to a festival she produced here in Connecticut. Bowled me over, he did.

Get 'em to order the LP, Art. I suspect Mudcatters are the kind of folks who keep their turntables working because of all the great LPs they collected in the 60s and can't find now as a long file of zeros and ones. Caroline and I are the same way. Hundreds of beloved LPs that may never see digital daylight.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: rich r
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 09:36 PM

Art,

Your mind is still sharp as a tack. "RedRiver Shore" is indeed in Folk Songs of North America, AND it does contain the verse that you include! Furthermore in that book it is listed as being on p 298 of Cowboy Songs. The only slip is that it is the 1938 edition of Cowboy Songs which was somewhat revised and expanded from the 1910 edition. You can relax now.

rich r

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 06:15 PM

It's always amazed me how "floater verses" show up in various songs all over the many traditions. It's a big part of that oral tradition PROCESS that makes searching through the manuscripts and recordings so much like a true treasure hunt. I could swear that Alan Lomax had this verse as a part of "Red River Shore" when he printed it in __Folksongs Of North America__. Alas, I can't check it as I don't have that volume any longer. (Was part of the big potlatch when we moved recently.)

AN APOLOGY:
It always drives me nuts when I realize I've mad a mistake in researching a song--especially when I've included that bit of info in the notes I did for an album. That is why, when I just looked up the song in John Lomax's 1910 book __Cowboy Songs__, I not only didn't find the verse, but I DIDN'T FIND THE SONG "Red River Shore"! It was probably _Folksongs Of North America__ where it was located all along. (Sorry, Sandy to realize this at this late date 15 years after the fact/album.

If someone has that book PLEASE let me know if the song is there encased and whether or not the "Such is the fortune of all womankind" verse is in it???!!

Thanks in advance,

Art

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 12:57 PM

I think many of us know the verse you're thinking of as part of "At the Foot of Yonder Mountain," a song Richard Chase learned from old Horton Barker (see the Golden Vanity thread). The text may be found under that title in the DT. I'm sure Cecil Sharp (please note the lack of the "e" at the end of his name, so many people write it as Sharpe, which it ain't) also collected the song in Appalachia, but my books are on the other side of the house, making it hard for me to look it up. I remember hearing Andrew Rowan Summers sing in, back in the dark ages. He recorded for Folkways, all stuff from the Sharp collection sung with dulcimer accompaniments.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 10:08 AM

what a wonderful song! I will definitely learn it. Nightowl that verse is from the Waggoner's Lad but it's verses are widely used...that is one of the charms of Art's approach to folk music...harpgirl

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Night Owl
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 01:37 AM

Art...the last verse of your posting is the first verse of, I believe, a different song???? same song????...talk about senior moments (premature of course!!) Can't remember if it was recorded by Joan Baez or not but includes a verse:

"My parents don't like him

They say he's too poor

They say he's not worthy

To enter my door

Can't remember the rest...

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: rich r
Date: 24 Jun 99 - 12:10 AM

If you want to hear the song, get Art's album. As a bonus you get 12 other good songs and if you get the LP you get two (I say two) large pictures of the grinning countenance of Art probably conjuring up his next pun. So you have plenty to choose from, I add three other text versions of the song. The first two are printed in "Cowboy and Western Songs" by Austin E and Alta S Fife. The third one I transcribed from a recording by none other than The Kingston Trio. The K3 version originally appeared on the rather forgetable Decca album "Something Else". The song was reissued on CD in 1996 by Folk Era Records (FE 6017). That CD is really a reissue of the K3 album "Children of the Morning" with four extra tracks taken from the "Something Else" album. Even Folk Era did not consider "Something Else" worthy of reissue in its entirety. So pick the verses and lines you like best.

A. At the foot of yon mountain where the fountain doth flow,
The greatest creation, where the soft wind doth blow,
There lived a fair maiden; she's the one I adore,
She's the one I would marry on Red River shore.

I spoke to her kindly, saying "Will you marry me?"
My fortune's not great" - "No matter," said she.
"Your beauty's a plenty, you're the one I adore,
You're the one I would marry on Red River shore."

I asked her old father would he give her to me.
"No sir, she shan't marry no cowboy," said he.
So I jumped on my bronco and away I did ride,
And left my true love on Red River side.

She wrote me a letter, and she wrote it so kind,
And in this letter these words you could find:
"Come back to me, darling, you're the one I adore,
You're the one I would marry on Red River shore."

So I jumped on my bronco and away I did ride
To marry my true love on the Red River side.
But her father the secret had learned,
And gathered an army of twenty and four,
To fight this young cowboy on the Red River shore.

I drew my six shooter, shooting round after round,
Till six men were wounded and seven were down.
No use of an army of twenty and four.
I'm bound for my true love on Red River shore.

B. At the foot of yonder mountain where often lay snow,
Amusements containing, while a pleasant wind blows.
I spied a fair damsel and she I adore,
She was a-walking on the New River shore.

Says I, "Pretty fair miss, can you fancy me?
My fortune's not great" - "That's nothing," said she.
Your beauty is enough and you I adore,
And you I will marry on the New River shore.

As soon as her old father came this for to hear,
He swore he would part her from her dearest dear;
He sent her away where loud cannons did roar,
And left this young man on the New River shore.

She wrote him a letter containing these lines,
"If you'll look in the letter, these words you will find.
I'll come back again and you I adore,
And you I will marry on the New River shore."

As soon as her old father came this news to hear,
He still vowed he'd part her from her dearest dear,
He gathered a company of twenty or more,
To fight this young man on the New River shore.

He drew his broad sword and he waved it around,
Until seven out of twenty lay dead on the ground;
He wounded five more and wounded them full sore.
Thus gained his true love on the New River shore.

C. At the foot of yon mountain where the big river flows,
There's a fond creation and a soft wind that blows,
There lives a fiar maiden, she's the one I adore.
She's the one I would marry on the Red River shore.

She wrote me a letter, and she wrote it so kind.
And in that letter, these words you will find.
"Come back to me, darling, you're the one I adore.
You're the one I will marry on the Red River shore.

So I jumped on my bronco and away I did ride,
To marry my true love on the Red river side.
But her pa knew the secret, and with twenty and four,
Come to fight this young cowboy on the Red River shore.

I grabbed my six-shooter, spun round and around,
Till six men were wounded and seven were down;
I can't fight an army of twenty and four,
When I'm bound for my true love on the Red River shore.

At the foot of yon mountain where the big river flows,
There's a fond creation and a soft wind that blows,
There lives a fiar maiden, she's the one I adore.
But never will marry on the Red River shore.

rich r

Subject: RE: Red River Shore
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 23 Jun 99 - 11:48 PM

Alan Lomax himself recorded "Red River Shore" on his LP called "Texas Folk Songs." Interestingly, the Canadian Folk Music Bulletin printed a song some years ago called "Where the Ghost River Flows" that used the same melody. The collector had recorded that one in Calgary. Darned nice song, too. If started off as almost a parody of "Backward, Turn Backward, Oh Time, in Your Flight," a wonderfully sentimental Victorian piece that you can find in the old collection published as Heart Songs. If you ever run across a copy of that book, grab it! It's a gem.

Sandy

Subject: DTADD: Red River Shore
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Jun 99 - 10:50 PM

RED RIVER SHORE

This is a cowboy song version of "EARL BAND" -- Child #7 This is close to the version printed in 1910 by John Lomax, as sung for him by Mrs. Minta Morgan of Bells, Texas (__Cowboy Songs__ , New York 1910)Alan Lomax used to sing it around, but he sang "bronco" where I sing "broomtail". I changed it to broomtail when a woman from Winfield, Kansas told me that "broomtail" was the way they had sung it as kids. She ought to know since Winfield sits right a-straddle of the old Chisum Trail. I recorded this song on my old LP for Folk Legacy Records __Art Thieme-ON THE WILDERNESS ROAD__ (FSI-105) I still have a few of the vinyl LPs and a bunch of the cassette of this. Either would run you $11.00 (postage included. E-mail: [e-mail]

ART

_____________________________________________________

At the foot of yonder mountain where the fountain does flow,
There's a fond creation where the soft winds do blow,
There lived a fair maiden--she's the one I adore,
The one I will marry on the Red River shore.

I asked her old father would he give her to me,
"No, sir, she won't marry no cowboy," said he.
So I jumped on my broomtail and away I did ride,
Leavin' my true love on the Red River side.

She wrote me a letter and she wrote it so kind,
And in this letter these words you will find,
"Come back to me, darlin', you're the one I adore,
The one I will marry on the Red River shore.

Well, I jumped on my broomtail and away I did ride,
To marry my true love on the Red River Side,
But her dad learned our secret and with twenty and four,
Came to fight this young cowboy on the Red River shore.

I drew my pistol, spun round and around,
Six men were wounded, and seven were down,
No use for an army of twenty and four,
I'm bound for my true love on the Red River shore.

Hard is the fortune of all woman kind,
They're always controlled and they're always confined,
Controlled by their parents until they be wives,
And a slave to their husbands the rest of their lives.

Art Thieme

Subject: Red River Shore
From:
Date: 23 Jun 99 - 10:14 PM

I have an old newspaper cliping that has been torn. I believe that it was in a Boston newspaper around 1920. some of the words are as follows, to what tune I do not know."Your beauty's a plenty, your the one I adore; You'er the one I would marry on the Red River shore." I ask her old father, would he give her to me? "No, sir, she shan't marry no cowboy," said he. So I jumped on my bronco and away I did ride And left my true love on the Red River side.

She wrote me a letter, and she wrote it so kind. And in this letter, these words you could find; "Come back to me, darling, you're the one I adore, You're the I would marry on the Red River shore."

So I jumped on my bronco and away I did ride To marry my true love on the Red River side. But her dadknew the secret, and with twenty and four Came to fight this young cowboy on Red River shore.

I drew my six-shooter, shooting round after round then ????????? it is missing. any information on the rest of the words would be appreciated. Thanks Peter