Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:53 AM

Why is this thread still active?

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:49 AM

Well, Amergin doesn't mind all that much....

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: The Lighthouse
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:48 AM

Why does Bob have to refer to himself in the third person?? Thats a bit annoying according to Lighthouse.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:11 AM

...personally, I prefer the ones with the reservoir tip.

In many ways I was extrmely thankful that I blew out my ACl (knee) doing football when 15 years old and I never had to make the decision about going or not going to S.E. Asia. The repairs I had then lasted over 45 years. Now I've got a new right knee. Yes, I was a very lucky boy.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: mg
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

I don't know about anyone else but I doubt that i am even 5% healed.

mg

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: bbelle
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:32 PM

WOW! (My nicer term for OH, FUCK!) I just reread the whole thread and had the same reaction as the first time ... tears and a hard lump in my heart. I know what it took to post on that thread because I did the same thing on the ensuing thread about Viet Nam.

Maybe we should put this one to bed and go back and reread the Viet Nam threads. A little humbling is good for the soul, as is humility.

jenny

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:27 PM

McGrath & all-

You might appreciate Carl Schurz's take on Decatur's rather fatuous toast:

"My country, right or wrong: when right, to be kept right;when wrong, to be put right."
[ca.1899]

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:59 PM

WillH.......Sorry if I offended you by acting a bit paranoid, but I took your advice and reread the original post and I see that I may have been a bit clouded during the first reading and perhaps he was just speaking of the defensiveness which we all display towards home and family. But I always get a bit paranoid when tales are told that somehow are missing in the detail and I am especially untrusting of those who made the decision to leave, although the option was a decent one, without addressing the issue of why they did istead of fighting the battle right here. In any case, I have to agree that I too get a little discouraged over people who refuse to see the foibles and fallacies within their own countries and indeed within themselves. If that was the intent of the original post....good point.

Re: the "VietNam" thread that Kat referenced you too......If you read that thread you will find a true microcosm and cross section of attitudes and stories and lives from that time and the healing that each has found in the years since. I gave the first 80 or so posts on it (after some questioning and approval from others) to a friend who is a high school government teacher. He uses it now to teach that period of American History, using about a dozen of the postings as examples of the turmoil and angst faced by young people then. Its a remarkable thread.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:54 PM

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would think of saying, except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober".

G.K.Chesterton, from an essay he wrote called "A defence of Patriotism" - in this case the patriotism he was defended involved campaigning actively against his country England's involvement in an unjust and popular war.

The point he was making is that the more you love your country, the more you will try to stop it going wrong.

And here's another quote which is really saying something similar, using a district in London as an example:

"It is not enough for a man to disapprove of Pimlico: in that case he will merely cut his throat, or move to Chelsea. Nor certainly is it enough for a man to approve of Pimlico: for then it will remain Pimlico, which would be awful. The only way out of it seems to be for somebody to love Pimlico...as mothers love children, arbitrarily, because it isntheirs."

And if you love someone you do your damnedest to help them avoid mistakes. And to pick up the pieces when they do make mistakes.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Susan from California
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:06 PM

All the "My country right or wrong" reminds me of a song (that isn't folk or blues, sorry) by Little Steven ( of The E Sreet Band & HBO's The Sopranos) called "I am a Patriot" The song is a story through the eyes of an oppressed person-South African Back if I recall correctly, it's on an LP & I haven't had a working turntable in years :-( . Anyway, the chorus goes something like this

I am a patriot, and I love my country Because my country, is all I know. I want to run with the lions, Freed from the cages.....

At any rate, that's all I remember specifically yet it always reminded me that it is natural to love that place that we call home, despite any and all problems. And for the U.S. lack of universal health care, cynicism in politics, and a general lack of social justice leap to mind, I do love my country, just like I love my parents despite their shortcomings. And I hope that my children will love me in spite of mine.

If I can find the lyrics, and anyone cares, I'll try to post them.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: WillH (inactive)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:21 PM

Thanks for steering us there, Kat!! I printed it out, and will give it to some friends to read, as well. Funny thing, that he wrote in the second person--I guess everybody has to keep their own distance from what happened.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:01 PM

For those interested in what I consider to be the best thing I've ever read on Vietnam, by someone who experienced it, up close and personal, I would urge you to click herefor Big Mick's posting of February 27, 1999 9:20 a.m. on the Vietnams songs thread.

There are many other very fine postings there as well. I am not saying this discussin is not worthy, just pointing out some past treasures.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:12 PM

Your home shapes you, and you shape your home, and everybody feels proud and possessive about their own home, no matter what that home might be and what it's shortcomings may be. I think the man has a valid point, whether that home is a physical house, a family or a country, and whatver his motives may be...

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: WillH (inactive)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:07 AM

I don't know about anyone else, but I am disturbed about how paranoid people seem to be. If the post is a hoaz, I can't see what the point of it is. All he really said was that he left the country, traveled a bit, and that people everywhere were patriotic about their own country, and that he thought about that everytime he felt like saying patriotic things,

He did imply that he was a folksinger, and the way he cutsies things up and has a nice little point at the end makes me believe it. That third person thing too.

Anyway, Communist Bob has some real and very human things to say, even if you don't like his folkie style. and the people that responded to him said some very real, human, and important things to say. Somebody comes along and yells "Phoney" and then it turns into nothing but paranoid rantings

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:59 AM

I don't know if the original poster is genuine or not and I don't care. I do know that there were a lot of brave people in this country during that idiocy in Southeast Asia. And I do not mean just the boys who went off to war.

In 1970 I had to make that decision. I certainly had no interest in getting shot in a rice paddy. But I also didn't have the guts to abandon my homeland. I compromised and joined the Navy. Those who left, either for Canada or Viet Nam, showed what they were made of.

Leaving home is not to be taken lightly. The chances you take are dangerous and unpredictable. Those who went to war were faced with the likelihood of death or maiming. Those who went to Canada (and beyond) faced ostracism and rejection. There is no greater threat to one's wellbeing than that.

Our constitution makes us free to follow our hearts. Remember it says "..life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." Death, maiming, ostracism, all threaten those qualities of our life in America. We are free as long as there are those who question authority and flip off those who seek to limit us for their own ideals.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:03 AM

Hi Banjo Johney, :
You must have great health insurence. Last time I was in the hospital, and sent home less than 24 hours after major throat surgury and had to go back because of complications from that decision, made becasue of my lousey insurence, I thought the same about capitolizm! Things are pretty good until something goes wrong.
Stay well all,
Larry

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 02:50 AM

No, Mark, you definitely are not the only one. Sorcha, haven't you heard? The new Harry Potter book has been released for sale!

DougR

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 02:49 AM

Communism is failure.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:52 AM

Oh well. It makes interesting reading when you have been away from the library for a week.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:55 PM

Interesting PLP Guest........I said almost the same thing awhile back on that subject and I think that's why I'm a bit put-off now.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST,PLP
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:38 PM

If I read Bob's posts carefully, I notice that he doesn't quite say why he left, and he won't actually say he was a draft resister. There were a lot of people who showed up at meetings during the war, with stories like Bob's amd even better ones. Everyone was always welcome, but we kept an eye on them.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: bbelle
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:36 PM

No, Mark, you're not the only one.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: WyoWoman
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:36 PM

WyoWoman always wwonders about people who discuss themselves in the third person. She wwonders wwhat's up wwith that???

ww

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:10 PM

At least it's well written

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:08 PM

No Mark you're not.......I have mixed emotions about the poster's intent and unlike many other worthwhile discussions on this subject and its related branches, I don't feel too comfortable about the whole thing. Many of us have told our stories and our viewpoints and history are well known here. Its not that I mind the rehashing and the discussion, but it strikes me as this thread, unlike others, stems not from a legitimate question, but from an antagonistic stance.

If the first bite of the potato salad tastes spoiled, I ain't gonna' eat the rest.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: MarkS
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:38 PM

I guess I am the only one who thinks this thread started as an elaborate hoax.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:26 PM

I suggest you re-read Bob's posts, Guest.

I see no contradiction

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 09:20 PM

Could there be room for "She's good but not as great as she thinks though she could've been better than she'd ever guess if she'd 've only listened to the cries of her own offspring". Barry

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 09:04 PM

Sorcha, we are definitely the minority in Why-O-Myn!!

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 09:02 PM

Not from me, but a quote from my (in-voluntary) Cuban exile teacher: "I came here because it was and is the best place in the world right now. It may not be in the future, and it may not have been in the past, but right now, America is the best the planet has to offer." (about 1972-73). I don't know if he was correct or not, and I do not spout about "My country right or wrong". I cannot do Communisim, but I can and do, do Socialism. I know, I know, one is political and one is economical.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: bbelle
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:37 PM

REF

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:15 PM

Thank you, Bob, for starting this thread. It has the makings of a classic, with the thought-filled postings so far. I enjoyed the clarification on your nickname..reminded me of that old Peter Sellers' character, "Chance, the Gardener"..,which of course led to more thoughts along the lines of the other posters, esp. worker's rights and that misnomer *universal* healthcare.

My dad write me a letter when I was about 14/15. I had lamented to him about all of the boys I knew who were going off to that Vietdamn war....he wrote back and said basically that it was, in his opinion, imperfections and all, still the best thing going in the "whole ball of clay" and that he reckoned we were better off trying to stay here than go elsewhere. (He had promised me we'd move to Canada if Nixon got elected!) At 83, he is still of this opinion...I am not sure that I can agree, faced with no health insurance and a company that doesn't give a damn about its employees, we are coming to some major decision-making times...

Thanks, again, Bob...

kat

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: bbelle
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:06 PM

Thank you, GUEST, because I was thinking exactly the same thing. Must be a slap in the face to have someone make up a story about a situation that caused anguish for those who felt it necessary to leave the US and for the families they left behind.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:57 PM

I'm sorry to burst your bubbles, but Communist Bob's story sounds pretty phony to me.

I was draft dodger and I was in Canada from 1969 until 1977. It was Carter who let us come home. Ford did nothing for us.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:33 PM

I was sitting this morning with an old friend, a rather famous Irish song writer, who I wont name without his permission, but we were reflecting on the funny places we have lived and what we saw, and I think the one that made us laugh the most was how, in the land of the free and home of the brave, the MOST FREE NATION ON EARTH, with the best democracy etc. there is no party for the majority, there is no labour party, due to decades of overt political repression for the most part forgoten by the people here with their great schools and free press. I don't mean just mcCarthizm , but the whole picture the tens of thousands of internments, the palmer raids, the ruined lives, and the lesson that if you stick your head up, you get shot or jailed or beaten. Yup, Communist Bob, I like you keep comming home, not only because it is home, but because so much of the worlds problems begin here as they once began in England. The colony has become the coloniser, but we do it with a coke can and a child tied to a factory job in Asia, so the average Joe doesn't see or care. Welcome home Bob, stay active. Change will come or we will all die with the planet American capitolizm is killing.
In One Big Union
Larry
PS Forget revisionist history in the Patriot, how bout a film about Shay's uprising, eh?

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:47 PM

As an American who grew up an expat but now isn't (except by culture), I also have noticed that in any country, third-world or industrialized, anglophone or not, there are always patriots. One of my very best friends believes that patriotism is the root of all evil, as it promotes We Are Better Than You thinking (which is only one step from either And So We Are Gonna Beat You Up, or No You Ain't So WE Will Beat YOU Up). He is very anti-sports, too, for the same reason. I have been having a harder and harder time arguing with him...

As an aside about Quakers and America: I always found it odd that my Quaker father and uncle, conscientious objectors during WWII, were forced either to be guineapigs for medical experiments (Dad's choice), be an orderly (shovel s**t, my dad said) in insane asylums (nobody's choice) or rot the whole time in jail (Uncle Greg's choice). Where is the freedom of religion there? Why couldn't some of the choices have been build schools, or roads, or other helpful but not specifically punishing community service? After the war, dad could not have a glass of wine with dinner (the cure they tried for the hepatitis they gave him didn't work) and had scars on his arms and legs (the cure they tried for the frostbite they gave him didn't work) and ok, I'll stop now. Maybe my friend has had more of an influence on me than I thought...

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:41 PM

Bob forgot one thing--he always tells people he came back because he wanted to live in a ranch house with a barbeque by the pool. An aunt told him, "You should have gone to Vietnam and got killed--then at least we would be proud of you."

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: WyoWoman
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:34 PM

There is no Shangri-La. It's up to each of us to grow as much as we can where we're planted and do what we can to ensure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. And I consider that posterity to include the other members of the human race who occupy this planet. I'm pretty keen on some level of capitalism, but firmly believe that some people, regardless of what system they operate within, will use, abuse, exploit and otherwise mess with anyone and anything they can get away with. So, Checks and Balances is the name of the game.

Right now, the balance is against the workers of the world, and that we need to work more toward getting human necessities met in workplaces all over the globe. Doing this while keeping profit incentives in place for the capitalists is do-able, and desireable. Just not as easy as wholesale exploitation ...

WW

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:29 PM

Well, Bob isn't sure that he should have started this thread--just meant to make a point, and not have to justify a few things that happened a long time ago--but he opened his mouth, so here are a couple answers--

Bob was one of those who could not take advantage of the general amnesty, because there were other issues pending. These issues took some work to resolve, and, having come an active Republican family from Ford's district, we got some help.

There was music to be faced on the return (not folk music), and it was faced. There was a piper to pay, and he was paid. Our family is still broken up into speakers and not speakers, and the Communist brothers don't live there anymore.

In case you are curious, the Nick comes from being called "That Communist, Bob----" by detractors, and not any real political affiliation. Bob has always found it amusing.

As someone pointed out, you can look at these things in different ways. Out of respect for people still living who should have gotten over this a long time ago, that is all I have to say.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 01:55 PM

My country, right, or wrong. gag

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:48 PM

Scabby, that just about says it for me. July 4th came and went with only a few sparklers in the yard at this house; we don't tend to wax patriotic but we also know how to appreciate the good things we do have. I feel for Doug because I know so many who were emotionally wounded by the whole Vietnam experience, and every stupid politician (and that's about all of them) who has ever done a stupit thing just rubs more salt into those wounds. I'm becoming a Quaker, and choose not to pledge the flag, but it's not out of lack of respect for the republic for which it stands.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:37 PM

But isn't it the case, as Bob suggests, that we can all be extremely myopic when it comes to our own country's shortcomings and also its virtues?

I'm not speaking of any one country here, just all nations... we all know the things that we hate about our own country... but if someone else levels the self-same criticism(s) then we bristle, the hackles are raised, and we feel compelled to defend what we would criticise ordinarily.

Equally, visitors, or commentators from elsewhere can see strengths or virtues of which we are either unaware or unappreciative.

People on the 'Net often ask me "What's Scotland like?".

I have to confess I don't really know - I'm standing way too close to be able to tell you. I can speak from the heart about the things that I like and dislike, but when it comes right down to it.. you don't pick and choose members of your family on the basis that you like or dislike their personal habts or attributes.

Your family is your family, and you might fall out with your brother or your mother from time to time.. but you are still connected to them by something more than choice, more than liking, more than even common interest..

To me, my country is like my family. It may drive me crazy from time to time, but nevertheless it's the only country I'll ever call home.

And just as you would think very carefully before saying to a friend or an acquaintance, "Hey, your mother's a fat, rude old sow isn't she?" , I would be careful about criticising too readily another person's homeland...

Even if I know your brother's an aggressive overbearing bully - I probably wouldn't hassle you personally about it...

So let's all enjoy our national families and try to be nice to other people's, too..

Cheers

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:33 PM

I'm sure he came back because it was home.

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:32 PM

I do have one question, Bob, which is:why did you come back? Just curious.

DougR

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Jed at Work
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM

We're glad you're back, Bob!

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Mini Me
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:18 PM

Dear Bob, Glad you got to come home. Your thread will be interpreted in a number of ways. Typically, each side or party will have it's own thoughts and opinions. I'm glad you shared your's with all of us . All the best.

Mike Strobel

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:13 PM

Well I was about to make that same point Mike.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:08 PM

"When Gerry Ford gave the invite, we caught the next tramp steamer."

I assume that you're speaking of the general amnesty granted to Vietnam War-era draft resistors. That was given by Jimmy Carter. Ford's pardon was for Richard Nixon.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: Communist Bob speaks about 4th of July
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:02 PM

Old Bob is coming out of the shadows, where he usually sits, (because you all know more than he does, and usually say it better), because the discussion in the 4th of July/Colonials thread hit a bit close to home for him.

Bob and his family had differences with a white haired old Uncle on a certain little war, so they headed crossed the nearest foreign border to a land where the beer, whiskey and cigarettes were better, and the people never told you to get a haircut. Course things being what they were, the Uncle still found ways to mess him, and so Communist Bob, his brother, with guitar, banjo, and backpacks headed out for ever more remote countries.

Well, we boys wandered a bit, from one country to another, call us exiles or refugees, or fugitives, or as many did(and occasionally do), cowards. Hot countries, cold ones, neat countries, messy countries, countries where you could speak out, and countries where you kept your mouth shut.

Well, here is the point of the story, about everywhere we went, we were among sympathetic types, and sat up all night talking about the war and imperialism and every damned thing. And almost everywhere we went, after we were all talked out, usually about 4 am, someone would start to talk about how the country we were in was really the cradle of intellectual freedom and political change and had been the one true home of everything wonderful, beautiful and good, from art to poetry to to social equality to the invention of the wheel.

Well, of course, we were guests, and didn't ever dare say a thing when this flow of patriotic half truth and shellac started to flow. The thing was that it happened just about everywhere we went, and it came from people who, we knew, pretty radical political and economic views.

When Gerry Ford gave the invite, we caught the next tramp steamer. Bob wishes he could say that Amerika (as Bob spelled it, in those days) was the most wonderful thing he had ever seen, but the truth was that in the middle 70's, everything and everybody looked like Hell, still, it was Bob's Hell, and that counted for something.

To this day though, Bob fights all the urges to say stirring and patriotic things, especially after big meals, and especially on holidays. He knows there may be a couple of people at the table who see it for what it is.