BS: The RAF leaves Germany

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM

Little Hawk, that's what I was trying to say: I don't hold any grudges because I don't think I (us Germans) are entitled to any. Terrible things happen in any war, that's why most sane and level-headed people are pacifists unless faced with the necessity to defend themselves. On the other hand, I wouldn't blame any of the countries attacked by the Germans for holding grudges right after the war. As I see it, however, there's a lot of change in the attitudes to the war and their own conduct of it on all sides, and I hope it'll make for a better understanding and good will all round. (My) Last Post on the subject, but do email me privately any time.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 08:04 PM

Suzanne - You're right, it's too complex a matter to disentangle with a few short email messages on this forum. I think we probably agree on most of the essential points anyway. Perhaps I will email you later about it. It is not my desire that you should hold grudges against the Czechs or the British or anyone else...nor that they should hold grudges against Germans either.

Cheers,

Little Hawk

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 07:21 PM

My father, who was the senior Canadian officer in NATO Headquarters in Fontainebleau in the 1950s tells the story about the year (55-56 I guess) the Germans were first allowed into the strategy sessions of NATO. It happened that their first appearance coincided with one of the standard war gaming exercises that the Allies were working through. They were horrified to discover that the basic working assumption was that Germany would be flattened by nuclear weapons to prevent the Russians crossing the Rhine. The war game was modified the next year so the Germans could participate somewhat more happily.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 06:30 PM

Sorry - as the originator of this thread I grovel if anybody takes this as an attempt to reopen old conflicts.

The thought was raised by one 80 year old ex sgt Air Gunner in my local pub who had spent his time in the Mid Upper Gun Position of a Lancaster in 1944/45, and had reinlisted in the peacetime RAF in 1946. He had been stationed in W Germany in the 1950's as a WO1. Frank has fond memories of his time there. Including his marridge to a local girl.

I would suggest that the leaving of Bruggen deserves some comemoration in Song.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:40 PM

Rollo, I don't think it was just a feeling. I'm quite certain that long after 1950 the German government was still obliged to consult the Allied High Commissars at least on any foreign policy decisions they made, and that they were able to veto any decisions.
Little Hawk, I don't agree with your conclusions although much of what you say is correct. Of course no two wrongs make one right. We know this. But ask a world that has been plunged into the bloodiest war since 1618 to remember this and treat the perpetrators wisely! And how were they to know which Germans were guilty and which weren't? Even the Germans found it hard to decide in many cases. Behaving like they did was more of an achievement than you give them credit for.
No, I don't think anyone from my family ordered any people to be gassed, but I don't know what my father (who was 22 when the war ended) did and witnessed in Russia because he died too soon for me to ask him, possibly as a late consequence of his treatment in a Czech POW camp. Should I hold this against the Czechs? My mother was a schoolgirl when the train that took her to school every morning was shot at by low-flying British planes more than once. Should I hold this against the British?
These things are far too complex to disentangle by eMail. If Canada wasn't so far away and I less afraid of flying we might one day get the chance to discuss them face to face. As it is, I think we should let it rest. Or if you like you can eMail me at [e-mail].

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Rollo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM

Wotcha, it is not so easy as that.

Of course the NATO forces were stationed in western germany according to the role of FRG being part of the NATO, and Germany being a major arena of the "Cold War". But we had still a nagging feeling of being "no independent state". We were the "western allieds`s Germany", our kinfolk in the east were "the russian`s Germany. And indeed there many tasks where we felt that we were not masters in our house. For example, I grew up in an airforce low flight training area. There are rules. E.G. airplanes are not allowed to go deeper than fifty metres. They are not allowed to overflight townships in low flight. But there were many cases of NATO partner machines going over our town so deep they nearly sheared chimneys and roofs off. I remember a machine going so deep directly above our house every single window was tingling and the roof tiles were rattling, too. But calls at the air base brought no result - the officers telling us "Sorry, but we cannot intervene. This was a NATO flight, no Bundeswehr. They needn`t to follow the rules, if they don`t want to, so far no foreign NATO pilot has been disciplined for ignoring them." Well, one day one of their planes went so deep it tore down a high voltage transmission line.

Of course american PERSHING on german soil were not placed there to keep us quiet. But nevertheless it were Relatives of us, living over the border,who were threatended by the missiles. Irony of fate: Our relatives were terrorized by deep flight planes, too. They lived near a soviet airbase.

Only the signing of the peace treaty and the reunion of germany at last ended this feeling. Since then it is something different to be german. Only since then I can whole-hearted agree to european unity, because now it is my own decision to vote for a state that does give up more and more of its souvereignity.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Wotcha
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 09:50 PM

This thread demonstrates the common misconception about the presence of NATO forces in Germany. The British and American occupation forces left Germany upon gaining its sovereignty in the early 1950s (except for Berlin which was occupied until 1990 ... and I don't think many Berliners were complaining about that in 1948).
NATO forces (British included) were present in Germany based upon treaty allowing their "presence" to counter a serious threat from the Eastern Block that arose in 1954 (the date the modern stationing arrangements began). The Cold War was the reason why we were there ... not occupation.
Germany,its neighbors and allies are free today, because the troops were there performing an often misunderstood and thankless task (Think "Life on a Soldier's Pay"). Now it's time to move on.
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:53 PM

"Deserve" has got nothing to do with it. A wise victor treats the ordinary citizens of a vanquished nation with mercy, and with the same consideration he would wish to receive if he was on the losing end. Otherwise, where is the moral high ground he claims to stand on himself whilst out "saving the world"?

Clemenceau was eager to give the Germans what he thought they "deserved" in 1918, and in 1940 France received the German response to that in full measure as a reward for their shortsighted and punitive policy. They were utterly defeated and occupied for several years...s pretty miserable experience, and they could indirectly thank Clemenceau for providing the perfect conditions in which to eventually incubate the Nazis.

Two wrongs never make a right. Did you order people to be gassed, Suzanne? Did you burn them in ovens? Are you any less human than me or the next person? I trust not. Ordinary Germans (I am not referring to the Nazi leadership but to the general population) deserved the same humane treatment as do all other peoples, regardless of historical events.

I say this as a Canadian who has no German family connections, past or present. My father is a Czech who fought hard against the Germans in WWII, and my mother is English-Scottish Canadian. We either recognize that we are all one or we get caught in the cycle of vengeance forever.

So peace be upon you, and I don't think "it wouldn't have been any worse than (you) deeserved" to implement the Morgenthau Plan. I consider people like Morgenthau and Clemenceau to be pretty much like the Nazis themselves in their basic intent...just under another label, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 05:46 PM

Yes, it was on the news all over Germany as well, and made me feel just a wee bit nostalgic, though basically I agree with Peter T. (As a Scottish friend of mine would say in his perfect Denglish, "genough is genough!")
Just one thing: Quite apart from soaking up all the folk music the British Forces Broadcasting Service had to offer in the late 70s and early 80s, I do believe that the attitude and behaviour of the British (and U.S.) occupying forces in Germany right after the war did a lot to steer (West) Germany on the path it has since taken, towards democracy and Europeanism, and that is something I'm grateful for. What would have become of Europe if the Morgenthau Plan had been implemented (though it wouldn't have been any worse than we deserved!)?

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 04:12 PM

Auf wiedersehn, Tommies! (I hope I spelled that right...) Let's hope we never see a replay of the terrible events that brought you there back in the '40's. I have not forgotten London and Coventry, Hamburg and Dresden. Enough is enough.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: bobby's girl
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

I spent three fun-filled(ie very drunken!) years in Germany at RAF Wegberg & Laarbruch in the 70's, and I have to say I cried when I watched them marching out of Bruggen on the news.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 10:38 AM

I am now a civil servant employed by the Department of National Defence; nearly 30 years ago, I joined the Canadian Forces, in which I served seven years, including time in Germany. Canada pulled out of Germany in the mid-1990s. These days, young CF officers come to me with ancient photographs taken five years after I got out asking "What's that thing? Who are those people?" I know now how my Dad felt (ca. 1960) when a recruit asked him, "Please, sir, what's a U-boat?"

Soon, that will start happening to you RAFfers ... get braced.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 10:08 AM

60 years after the war, about bloody time. Well earned rest, chaps.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: The RAF leaves Germany
From: jets
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:58 PM

I realy do not know why I feel so strongly about the fact that the RAF is at last leaving Germany.Perhaps because it closes the book on the past.

Subject: The RAF leaves Germany
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:54 PM

News Item.

Today the Last Two Royal Airforce Squadrons leave Germany, restationed back to the UK.

This must call for a Ballard, and no pleeeese no more rewrites of Bless them All

Any thoughts ?

Gareth