BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:36 PM

My edition of the OED is old (1920s), and lacked the reference to Garrick. Thanks, Burke. I would like to get the online version, but I can't justify it on retirement income.

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:52 PM

they are described that way in English too, petr; but also figurativly "green" for jealousy or envy.

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

I should say that in Czech if someone looks green, they look quite sick (about to throw up)

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:38 PM

along with green recruit, theres green with envy red with rage, yellow with cowardice, theres also black humour

my favorite Nabokov quote, " it wasnt blackmail it was more like mauvemail"

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: pavane
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:21 AM

Thanks for the OED entry, that must be the definitive word (Unless anyone knows better...)

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:26 AM

Interesting coincidence. Just today I read this:

"Lecturing is gymnastics, chest-expander, medicine, mind healer, blues destroyer, all in one." -- Mark Twain, in a letter to Sammy Moffett, 15 Aug 1895, quoted by Andrew Hoffman, in "Inventing Mark Twain: The Lives of Samuel Langhorne Clemens," 1997.

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:10 PM

Maybe it comes then from observing the cyanosity of corpses or something? Seems a lot older than the "usually credited" date, who's gonna tell'm?

As an interesting aside, "les bleus" (the blues) in French would refer to a bunch of newbies, raw recruits - who'd be called green in English...

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Burke
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:00 PM

Did someone say OED? "the blues" is older than Irving.

blue a 3. fig. a. Affected with fear, discomfort, anxiety, etc.; dismayed, perturbed, discomfited; depressed, miserable, low-spirited; esp. in phr. to look blue. blue funk (slang): extreme nervousness, tremulous dread; also blue-funk school, a jocular perversion of 'blue-water school'; blue fear, a variant of blue funk.

a1550 Peblis to Play ii. 6 Than answerit Meg full blew.
c1600 Rob. Hood (Ritson) II. xxxvi. 84 It made the sunne looke blue.
1682 N. O. Boileau's Lutrin I. 316 But when he came to't, the poor Lad look't Blew.
1783 AINSWORTH Lat. Dict. (Morell) I. s.v. Blue, He looked very blue upon it, valde perturbatus fuit.
1840 DISRAELI Corr. w. Sister (1886) 15 Great panic exists here, and even the knowing ones..look very pale and blue.
1861 Sat. Rev. 23 Nov. 534 We encounter..the miserable Dr. Blandling in what is called..a blue funk.
1871 MAXWELL in Life (1882) xii. 382 Certainly is the Homeric for a blue funk.
1883 Harper's Mag. Mar. 600/1 I'm not a bit blue over the prospect.
1883 STEVENSON in Longm. Mag. Apr. 683 The very name of Paris put her in a blue fear.
1908 Daily Chron. 24 Feb. 4/6 The identification by Mr. Harvey, M.P., of the 'blue-water school' with the 'blue funk school'. Ibid. 20 July 4/3 The Jingo..is a nobler being than the disciples of our 'blue-funk' school.

12. the blues (for 'blue devils'): depression of spirits, despondency. colloq.

1741 D. GARRICK Let. 11 July (1963) I. 26, I am far from being quite well, tho not troubled wth ye Blews as I have been.
1807 W. IRVING Salmag. (1824) 96 In a fit of the blues.
1856 G. J. WHYTE-MELVILLE K. Coventry viii. 89 The moat alone is enough to give one the 'blues'.
1883 Harper's Mag. Dec. 55 Come to me when you have the blues.
1887 'J. S. WINTER' That Imp ii. 11, I wonder you and Betty don't die of the blues.
1960 New Statesman 27 Feb. 274/2 The post-election blues are beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:52 PM

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Blue Devils,
or A fit of the blues. A fit of spleen, low spirits. Roach and Esquirol affirm, from observation, that indigo dyers are especially subject to melancholy; and that those who dye scarlet are choleric. Paracelsus also asserts that blue is injurious to the health and spirits. There may, therefore, be more science in calling melancholy blue than is generally allowed. The German blei (lead) which gives rise to our slang word blue or bluey (lead) seems to bear upon the "leaden downcast eyes" of melancholy.

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:27 PM

Pene Azul is correct according to the Oxford English Dictionary. It is supposed to have been derived from "blue devils."

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:50 AM

I have read a reference in a Civil War diary - the girl's brother wrote to her and said, what have you given Mr. Magner the blues about? (Mr. Magner was her sweetheart, but as it turned out, she didn't marry him. Oh well.)

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Brían
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:19 AM

I think there might be a connection with the 4 Cardinal Humors: Blood(Red), Phlegm(Green, Yellow),Melancholy(Black bile). People's body fluids were thought to govern their emotions.

Brían.

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:49 AM

According to this FAQ:

The word 'blue' has been associated with the idea of melancholia or depression since the Elizabethan era. The American writer, Washington Irving is credited with coining the term 'the blues,' as it is now defined, in 1807. (Tanner 40) The earlier (almost entirely Negro) history of the blues musical tradition is traced through oral tradition as far back as the 1860s. (Kennedy 79)

Jeff

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:46 AM

According to The Cassell Dictionary of Slang and I quote "The OED's first citation is from a letter by the actor David Garrick (11th July 1741): 'I am far from being quite well, tho not troubled with ye Blews as I have been.'" Unquote. So tomorrow July 11th is an anniversary of sorts. Obviously the word must have been in use before that in order for Garrick and the person he was writing to, to be familiar with it. As Garrick was an actor I wonder if it had a theatre connection?

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: pavane
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:27 AM

Anyone with a subscription to the online OED? Maybe that would tell us. Just curious because I found a reference to the blues (and the browns) in a song c1840

Subject: RE: BS: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:23 AM

Pavane,

I seem to recall that the term "to have the blue devils", meaning melencholia dates back to at least the Regency period (I think it's in Grosse's Dictionary, but I can't find my copy, so I'm afraid I can't confirm that.

regards

Walrus

Subject: How old is 'the blues' meaning sadness?
From: pavane
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM

Does anyone know when 'the blues' first came to have its present meaning, in terms of emotion, which was (subsequently?) applied to the music?