BS: Explaining Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 07:10 AM

Wheww... you lot should be writing Mega-Novels....

Explain Americans? "Some good, some bad, and some ugly" - same as everyone else.... BUT = today is the 59th Anniversary Hiroshima Day remember the BIG BANG? - that started the US "Disposable Economy"

Mumble... Why bother "Explaining Americans"? From what I've seen you are as variable as everyone else in our overcrowded, resource depleting world (well you use more per head than most)

Cheers - Sam - Stewart Island (NZ) - as far as I can get from the sentiments expressed above... Mumble... Grump///

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 02:11 AM

DougR, its an election year. Americans as a whole are perceived to be upper-middle-class consumer gluttons who the rest of the world is mad at because of that gluttony. Some in that group feel entitled to everything they can consume, but many others don't. Some of us feel it necessary to point out that we can live within our means and have a good life without impacting the rest of the world so hard to do it. No wars were fought over the oil that went into the plastic cases for Don and Barbara's used video tapes. The books they own may have come from used book stores and library discards--so no trees were cut to produce them. They don't need to sit across the huge room to be able to see the entire picture on their television screen. Some Americans need to stop trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and instead learn to shame the Bushes into more responsible consumer ideals.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 01:32 AM

Well, I do have one question , Don. Why do you think it is necessary for Americans to explain Americans to Americans?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 11:37 PM

I hear ya, Scoville!

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Scoville
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 11:15 PM

I'm forwarding the article link to some friends. We're all trying to start lives on jobs that "pretend to pay" us (I got a $1 an hour raise today that might--*might*--keep me from going into debt).

A lot of us [Americans] aren't living it up. This goes for young ones as well as older ones (most of us don't have parents who can or will subsidize us to that extent). I live with my parents but I literally almost make enough to cover what I pay them for rent, my health insurance, car insurance (car was paid off in January, thank God), gas, and minor personal expenses (new scrubs for work, car maintenance, etc). I don't buy a lot of clothes (the secondhand stores here are almost as expensive as new, anyway) or books or DVD's or whatever, and I pay off my one credit card monthly (I mostly use it for said gasoline, anyway). I cannot afford a cell phone, cable TV, restaurant lunches, weekend trips, health club, etc., and when I do get a "treat" (usually music-related) I have to make sure the purchase isn't too close to the last $15 I spent on a CD or concert ticket. There is absolutely no way I could make it on my own.

I make well above minimum wage but I don't make a LIVING wage. I don't think it's greedy or materialistic of me to want to be able to support myself in return for an honest 40-a-week (or a little more; I don't mind some overtime). It would be even better if I actually liked the job instead of being treated like a child by my bosses and a moron and whipping-boy [girl] by our customers. I don't want a McMansion and a BMW, I just don't want to live with my parents until Hell freezes over.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 08:29 PM

I am moved, touched, and feel a real kinship to Don Firth. Our situations---and many other's too, I suspect, are similar. It all comes down to values--which Kerry and Bush still have not defined other than say---"values".

Other than having a helpful second income from your wife, Don F, (mine passed away a number of years ago) we are--as the song says---in the same boat brother. I am going to guess here that it was your wife who said---buy that co-op (as mine did years back about a house--luckily).

Mudcat surely brings out our personal feelings when the discussion is right---and it doesn't cost over 100.00 per 50 min. hour and lead to diatribes from certain people--they know who they are.

Living near the NYC area let me just refer to a few comments by Stilly River etc;---yes and no. Sure you can get around much more easily. The Metro Card--to which you refer--still costs (and they are raising it again)---a family of 4 wants to go to say the Bronx Zoo--Cost: $16 roundtrip transit; Admission: Perhaps 25.00 Food: either bring your own or figure 25.00 for fast food.   Same for Museums. I won't even mention live shows.

Growing up there I know most of those things (including college ed. were free--with the right grade average).

My point is that Social Security is a wonderful thing---but, unfortunately, you cannot live in this area with it. I imagine the same applies in the West Coast from where Don hails. I do add, however, that govt employees ( of NYS) have such a lucrative pension plan at taxpayer's expense that it pays for them to retire early ---go south and just smile.

However, one needs more than smiles. Culture, interests, books (as Don says), theater, travel, etc; are all part of the quality of life. We can get that here in the Metro NY area---but one does need the dollars for it. It is hard for those of great means--and I know some--to fully understand this.

In the interests of full disclosure---which Poppa Alligator has done---Many years back I went to municipal pools while others joined clubs. I never did. I am not saying this to brag---merely saying I did not want to spend the money--felt it truly a waste and a fake face one puts on.    I play tennis on municipal courts---with--strangely--people who are very wealthy and also belong to clubs (well, their husbands do anyway). I do admit to playing on private clay courts when I can find a partner---love the surface---but for $8 on 75 yr old courts---why not. Also makes me feel like a kid in 1945 again.

As to credit cards. So far---always paid on time to avoid any charges---this does not, by the way, make you a valued customer. More like a pain in the ass who is not feeding their profits. Famlilial values I guess---wish my own felt that way. Although, in honesty, one lives in NYC and is hard pressed to makes ends meet.

I suppose we should end by going back to the begining of the thread.    Americans do not live---as a general rule--"high off the hog". Civil Servants get great vacations, private industry less so. To keep up with our standard of living & expenses (in metro areas) many take on other work and less vacation.   How many of the Europeans with all the vacation can afford the cultural ammenites thir metro areas offer? That may answer a few questions about vacation and American values---which-=-==history tells us has been an ongoing and improving thing until recently when our European counterparts have opened their hearts (hopefully?) and minds (hopefully?) to a world of brotherhood/sisterhood. Our current administration aside---we have been there. And---again full disclosure---I came from Austria. Not a happy memory.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: GUEST,Don FIrth (on again off again cookie)
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:43 PM

Our big collections of CDs, records, videotapes, and books have been accumulated over a number of decades. Most of the new (?) CDs I get come from foraging in "Second Time Around," a used CD and DVD store a few blocks away. $5.95 to $8.95, with a seven day return policy in case the CD is defective. I've run across Richard Dyer-Bennet, Odetta, Paul Clayton, Pete Seeger, and Mary Black there, and classic guitar records by John Williams, Julian Bream, Christopher Parkening, and Narciso Yepes, and brought most of them home. Got the full length Lucia di Lammermoor with Luciano Pavarotti, complete with English/Italian libretto (2 CDs, $14.95). Barbara belongs to a club: no minimum purchases, buy one CD at regular price and chose a bonus CD or two.

We hit the used book stores. Any new books we buy usually come from QPB, or Amazon (bought through Mudcat—click on the Mudcat emerging from the banjo at the top of the page—so Max gets a cut), and we sometimes go to the annual Friends of the Library book sale. Once in a while I pay full price at Bailey-Coy, a small local book store. I think of the extra cost as a contribution to keeping them going.

In the big grocery stores and chain drug stores, buy the house brand. It's essentially the same as the big name brand (sometimes even made by the same company), and you save about 25% or 30%.

It ain't rocket science. It only takes about half a brain cell.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM

Poppa Gator, I really doubt if you and I would "Seriously" disagree all that much on the Bush Admin or the Neo whatever party you refer to. I basically am a pro choice, let gays do whatever they want, anti assault weapons, and many other areas, a social moderate. I just don't feel fiscally like any thing I have heard or read about John Kerry makes me think he has any particularly good ideas on solving any problems.

I am not a big George Bush fan, and I will support President Kerry if he gets elected. I do feel that it is being a responsible AMerican to support our president, whomever he or she is. I supported Bill Clinton, I voted for Jimmy Carter.

If there is anything to be taken away from my ramblings it would be that people will accomplish a lot more by doing something personally, and not by bitching about how life isn't fair, or the Republicans have caused all the problems in America including the recent Cicada infestation.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM

When I look back at some of the places I've lived over the years, I remember different patterns of spending and consumption based on what the community was like. Many small towns don't have rapid transit. Around here (in North Central Texas), the big towns don't have rapid transit that serves everyone--you have to live along certain corridors.

When I lived in New York City I loved the idea that I could hop on a bus or a train and get to within a few blocks of where I wanted to go. They have made it even easier with the weekly and longer passes that you just swipe in the reader and go. Driving there is insane. Going to places with good prices is always possible in NYC, though I haven't lived there in a long time to know if I'm doing better or worse as far as thrift stores and discount grocery chains. A lot of little neighborhood stores in NYC are expensive if you do your shopping there, and the bigger grocery stores don't appear to be much cheaper--they have you where you live. I imagine an expeditionary train ride out to one of the other boroughs might find lower prices.

We always start our clothes search at the thrift store, and what Don describes above is true--it's amazing how many things have barely or never been worn. I can typically walk away from a couple hours of shopping there with the kids for about $60. That seems to be the amount we always land on, but for that cash, I leave the store with dozens of garments. Pants, shirts, sweaters, skirts.

There is a frugal little grocery chain in this area called "Save A Lot." It has brands that one wouldn't always recognize in the big grocery chains, but they are all comparable quality. They don't carry every flavor a brand may make. They run specials when they get something unexpected and can sell it at a discount.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

Ooops -- one more thing: even though we owe on our mortgage and will continue to do so longer than we'd like, we too have *no* credit card debt. Thank God for small favors!

Almost unAmerican, isn't it? Probably at least unPennsylvanian!

Pardon my disorganization in the previous post. I moved a couple of paragraphs around, and wound up discussing "my *other* main source of entertainment" before rather than after mentioning either that evil cable TV or my library-book habit.

Also, while in confessional mode, we pay a monthly bill for broadband internet access at home (no more expensive than a 2d phone line, true, but a luxury nevertheless), and $20/month for unlimited DVD rentals from www.netflix.com. I really recommend Netflix to anyone who lives where they can get it, i.e, some but maybe not yet all of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 05:57 PM

jimmyt, we don't disagree here at all -- I certainly take no offense at anything you've said in this thread. (I know we disagree -- seriuosly -- about the Bush administration and the neo-GOP, but that's something else entirely.)

Don, I'm trying to do pretty much the same as you. I'm about ten years from "retirement" age, although with no pension to look forward to except the inadequate SS, I'll probably continue working, one way or another, until the day I die.

We recently refinanced the house -- necessary in order to reroof the house, repair some nasty termite damage, and put in central air/heat (pretty much a necessity in our climate, and cheaper to run than window A/C units). The new mortgage won't be paid off until I'm 69 and Peggy is 65.

My other main source of entertainment is reading -- three to five books a week, usually -- but I never buy a book; I'm such a regular library patron that I never have to show my card, they see me coming and pull the books I have on hold by the time I reach the desk. (If I *did* use bookstores to feed my habit, I'd need another full-time income!)

Unlike some of you Mudcatters suffering from "G.A.S.", I'm perfectly satisfied with one musical instrument, my 1969 Martin D-18 guitar. Sometimes I daydream about turing it over to a luthier for a "tuneup" plus installation of a preamp/pickup deal, but so far it hasn't become a high enough priority to actually spend the money.

Confession time: Our worst "luxury" expenditure is cable TV. Ten or twenty years ago, who'd have thought we'd be paying a monthly bill for TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

That is inspirational, Don, and exactly what Im talking about. I have instilled in my childern that it is OK and even pretty smart to use a dredit card for purchases, but PAY IT OFF EVERY MONTH.

I have an ex- son in law with over $60.000.00 in credit card debt. I wonder how anyone can be that stupid, but then I also wonder what in the hell lenders are thinking when they allow this crap to happen. Both the idiot as well as the lenders have made stupid mistakes and somehow it will trickle back to us, the population of AMerica to somehow foot the bill for this type of fiscal irresponsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

I'm retired and my income is my monthly Social Security check. Barbara works somewhat less than full time (full time=40 hours a week) at the Seattle Public Library (but enough hours so she qualifies for retirement bennies for her and health insurance for both of us). We have a minuscule amount of money set aside in savings accounts and mutual funds, but if we didn't have income coming in, it wouldn't last up a short hill. We both write (and enjoy writing immensely), and we've both had things published, but any pay we've received for our writing so far has been minimal (but hope springs eternal). Adding Barbara's and my annual incomes and comparing the total with the statistics I've heard and read, I learn that we are below the poverty line. Well below.

But—

We live in a large apartment in a nice old building on Seattle's Capitol Hill (one of the nicer areas of the city) that has been a co-op since the late 1940s. It has historical status; there's a brass plaque out front. Barbara and I were lucky (I prefer to say "smart") to buy in here when we did twenty-seven years ago. Our share is long since paid off, and we have no mortgage. Our monthly co-op dues and maintenance fee is about one-sixth to one-eight of what we'd have to pay for a similar apartment if we were renting (and if we could even find one that isn't already occupied by someone who's making mega-bucks at Microsoft). That helps a lot.

We drive a 1999 Toyota Corolla, which has a little over 13,000 miles on the clock and is in practically brand new condition. As of a month or two ago, we own it free and clear.

Barbara looks for bargains. She hits the specials at grocery stores (shops a lot at Trader Joe's) and she shops judiciously at second-hand clothing stores. She always looks good. Some people, it seems, buy a $60.00 blouse, pay for it with one of their ten or twelve credit cards, wear it once, decide they don't like it, and toss it; Barbara comes along and buys it for $5.00 cash. She picked up a batch of fairly heavy plaid shirt-jackets for me (Land's End or Eddie Bauer's, I think) for a ridiculously small amount of money. Someone had bought them, wore them maybe once or twice, then sent them to the second hand store. They were in pristine condition. They're really comfortable, they look nice, and I wear them a lot, especially in cooler weather.

By the way, we have one (1) credit card (actually, one for each of us, but the same number, same account). We use it carefully and pay it off, in full, every month, thereby avoiding interest charges.

We have a 13" television (we also get cable—expanded basic) and a VCR. We watch television selectively (Nova, Masterpiece Theatre, Mystery, NOW with Bill Moyers, a couple of others:   I've lately been watching Cold Case on CBS on Sundays—and we both watch Red Green). We don't go to movies much:   we either rent videos or, mostly, Barbara brings them home from the library. We buy a few. I have the complete LOTR. She has the BBC production of Jane Eyre with Timothy Dalton as Rochester (actually, we've got a whole bookshelf full of movies we've bought or been given, and some stuff I've taped off TV). I'm thinking about getting a DVD player. We have a new 400 watt "bookshelf" mini-system: a Sony MHC-GX450 (AM/FM tuner, CD player with a 3 CD tray, dual tape decks, and a sub-woofer)—about $200—that could blow the walls out if we cranked the volume up. Nearby is a fairly huge pile of CDs (folk, classical, jazz, miscellaneous) that we've accumulated over time, not to mention about nine feet of vinyl records (I'm not kidding—by actual measurment) and a functioning turntable.

Then there are the books. Boy, are there books! Between our combine accumulations, we have so many full bookshelves lining our walls that, if the building's walls were to fall out, we probably wouldn't know it. Thousands of books on just about any subject you could name. They're not just for looks; we're both voracious readers. And with Barbara being a librarian, they're well organized. We can find what we're looking for (at least she can). Plus, I play the guitar, Barbara plays piano and organ, and both of us sing.   Our entertainment needs are well taken care of.

Speaking of entertaining, although we're not really wild-eyed party animals. we frequently have friends in (Barbara is a super cook), and fairly often we go to various parties and such, including songfests at Bob (Deckman) Nelson's and Alice Lanczos's. Right now, Barbara's cousin and her husband from Lincoln, Nebraska are staying with us for a week or two, sleeping on our fold-out couch (quite comfortable, actually).

I could go on, but you get the idea. We feel that we live a rich, full life. Lots of options. And we are debt-free. Let me say that again:   we are debt-free.

We know of people (and we actually know some people) who are making $60,000, $70,000, $80,000 a year, but who are so far up to their bummies in debt that they don't know how they're ever going to get out, and they're practically getting ulcers over it. They have huge thirty-year mortgages on their houses or condos, they sweat to meet the next payments on his new SUV and her new mini-van, and their eight credit cards are maxed out. They're both working extra hours to try to make ends met, and they're so worried about finances that they can't really enjoy watching their brand-new 52" digital flat-panel high-definition television.

I don't get it. As Americans, where did Barbara and I go wrong!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM

poppa gator, I absolutely agree, but my point is, however inadeguate I seem to be at making it, is, "well, we all gotta start somewhere," Everyone has a role in the big picture ,and trying to put it all on our lack of healthcare, transportation, time off, etc may well be the case, but everyone can do their part to make positive change. It is not enough to just say, "we need change, and it is all the other guy who needs to do it." I am not trying to be inflammatory in my dialog and I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 03:19 PM

It may well be true that *some* (hell, many) Americans fall prey to materialism & usury, but *all* of us have to live with the industrialized world's worst conditions for the average working citizen.

We don't have adequate public transporation and therefore *need* our cars, our health coverage (if we have any at all) is expensive and limited, and we get *way* less paid time off from work than our counterparts across the pond.

Living within one's means and resisting the lure of every new gadget that appears on the Shopping Channel does *not* help one get a quick convenient ride to work, better hospitalization coverage, or more vacation time.

It sucks!

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM

TTCM, yer a gormless dickhead, ya know that?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM

Don,

I'm glad I spotted this thread just before it fell off the bottom of the page. It looks like a good article. Thanks for the link.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:40 PM

Awww! You guys are so sweet... sheesh, $20 max and I'd get a really pretty secondhand dress, another $10 and I can make sure it's clean before I use it. I just want a NICE dress, not the huge fluffy white "Bridekenstein" thing. (Which wouldn't go with my guy's best jeans and t-shirt anyway! And no, he is not wearing a tux, by BOTH our choices. *grin*)

But yeah, a lot of the poor are poor because they don't understand how to use money. But some are poor for other reasons.

Seriously, when I get a leg up I'll be quite ok, because I do understand money. My only debt despite being poor all my life, is the $659 for emergency dental work from last month. And we're not paying that back until quite a bit after the wedding!

There is poor and stupid. I'm sure some of that is desperation though. Especially if you have kids it might be difficult to say no to what all their friends consider to be bare basics, if you're too frazzled to realize what you're getting into. Things cost less if you can get them at once, but that doesn't work if you need it immediately... like a car to get to work in an area where transit sucks. So then you get it on rent-to-own and pay twice as much as someone with more money would have paid, because of the interest. I knew a young mother like that, working a min-wage job and not having enough to feed her kids because just getting to work cost so much. The world is weird that way.

And if you're going in over your head just to get a plain table and a decent stereo, why not go in over your head a little more to get a sweet dining set and surround sound? I guess that's how they think. I'd rather not get in over my head though, I've seen that.

What are the choices though? Give in and die a little more each time you go to work, give in and be on welfare which is even worse, or try for something meaningful that may never pay enough to actually support even the most basic basics of health, home, food, clothing, transportation, creativity, and communication?

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:05 PM

Saulgoldie, I am constantly trying to simplify, downsize, make experience the issue, not stuff. I fail pretty miserably at it, though because in the consumer world we live in in the US, it is very difficult to compete, keep my business competitive, etc unless I fall victim of this very materialistic society.

I can at least appreciate the simple life as being more valuable than having the newest videophone, palm pilot or SUV. By the way, although the US is the mother of all materialism, I see more and more Europeans falling in to the same traps.

What I see also, though are folks who are in poverty who wouldn't be if they had prioritized their spending. The other night on my local news, they were telling the story of a poor victim of loansharking practice in our area whic is basically under the guise of writing post dated checks to a company who will give you an advance on your check. People get in to this habit and continue to write more and more checks paying 35-40 percent interest until they are hopelessly in debt. I do not condone these charlitans who do this practice and prey on the folks, but When they interviewed this lady, she had a satellite TV, a new car, a sunbed, an incredible stereo system, plus all the other junk you can imagine. At some point, don't people need to take SOME responsibility of their own actions?

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:49 PM

jimmyt, I think you nailed it. Too many Americans are too willing to sacrifice well-being for material. And to tell you the truth, I think an awful lot of that material is totally unnecessary, or so shoddily made that it isn't even worth the effort of carrying it home.

Some people do consciously choose to live more simply with less waste and clutter, though. Not sure where the engine of this whole consumption machine lives. Perhaps figuring that out could be a start of a quiet social revolution. And those can't be fought with any Patriot Act-type laws or enforcement!

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:30 PM

Shucks... Gorsh.... but yes, actually I can sew a pretty seam and I'm more than happy to help, if JimmyT will stump up for my air fare!!!

Actually, I'd help anyway!

I find Americans are best not explained.... just appreciated when a good one comes along.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: GUEST,TTCM
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:15 PM

There is no need to explain Americans, you are all fat lazy and worthless. You are all parasites on this earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:15 PM

count me in, MAry I'll add another $25 toward the cause. Don't want Hesperis marrying without a pretty dress.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:12 PM

liz the squeak is a wonderful seamstress

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: mg
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

Who can sew here? I'll contribute $10 for the dress if others can too..for $40 worth of material we can make you a nice dress...or someone can..I can't sew worth beans... mg

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:01 PM

The comparison doesn't take account of unpaid overtime. It can't.

A wedding costing $23,000??? LOL, we can't even afford that for a car or a piece of land somewhere. We'll be getting married on $300 maximum, and most of that just for the ring and licence and a nice dinner. I don't even have a pretty dress!

We've been struggling with the whole work = life thing lately. I've gone into entrepreneurship, which of course means that I'm not actually making money yet even though the business itself is doing ok. If I could busk a bit we'd get by. He has a job and it's a good one, but he can only work part-time and it has no meaning at all for him.

So we're trying to find alternative ways of living and working and earning money. It's an interesting stuggle, but better than just giving in. The problem is that most people who look for alternatives have already worked for a couple of decades and already have the basics like a house and car, even if those are mortgaged. When they downshift their lives, it frees up resources. We're downshifting our lives in order to survive at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:36 AM

So you're saying that Japan has gotten to be just like the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 08:49 PM

the article states that americans work longer hours and have less vacation time than the Japanese? I certainly doubt that. I remember in one class I taught in Japan, I asked people to describe an ideal vacation - if money was no object, the answer was Im sorry but I can only take 3 days off this year. And the comparison probably doesnt included the vast amount of unpaid overtime that the Japanese workers are expected to do, which makes up a large part of their economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:47 PM

Sorry to be a naysayer, but Americans are not willing to live like Europeans, ie no 2 car, 6 telephone, 2 1/2 bathroom, timeshare, materialistic way that many Americans believe is their God given right. I always hear about what this group has,(paid sick days) another group (long extended vacations) but in the end, Americans want it both ways.

Our system is based on stuff. Not on conditions. I have a friend who practices medicine in Denmark. He enjoys a terrific lifestyle based on the system of government there. He also lives in a very meager humble home compared to most middle class folks in AMerica. AMerican physicians would never put up with this, although he works about 1/3 to 1/2 the hours his counterpart in America does We need to rethink our value systems, perhaps as a nation of consumers, but much of the problem lies in what the workers demand, not in what is thrust upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM

Why do Americans settle for two weeks of paid vacation? because in order to take more vacation they would have to quit their job, which means it wouldn't be PAID vacation - and approx 60% of Americans are currently one paycheck away from broke.

I get three weeks paid vacation annually- I will not get a fourth week until after I have 10 years in my current position.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:28 PM

Great article. I like it plenty -- more people need to understand just how screwed up our system is, and how truly screwed most of us are.

Europeans get to enjoy at least four weeks of paid vacation, in addition to their sick leave, etc. Why do Americans settle for less than half as much? Why, in fact, do so many fear to leave their posts even for a lousy two weeks?

A related point I learned recently, regarding the widely publicized fact that curernt gov't tax policy benefits the richest 2% of us at the expense of everyone else:

26% percent of respondants (to a particular poll) believe themselves to be in the top 2%.

I was amazed to read this; I thought human nature was to bitch and moan, but apparently these days wishful thinking trumps bellyaching.

Subject: RE: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM

Don, Excellent article. I have saved it so I can read it in its entirety. Just for curiosity, though, who do you not think will agree with this? I guess no-one would like to admit ths cold hard facts this article brings out, but so far in glancing, there is lots of truth in it jimmyt (Conservative capitalist)

Subject: BS: Explaining Americans.
From: GUEST,Don Firth (still cookie-less)
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:08 PM

My wife discovered this in Pacific Northwest, the Seattle Times Magazine. Good article. It may take a moment or two to load and it's a bit long, but it's well worth the read.

I think it will help to explain Americans to Americans—and give our friends across various borders and both ponds an insight into Life in the Good Old USA. And it will give you a good idea why a lot of Americans have nervous tics.

Don Firth

P. S.:   Some folks here won't like it, I'm pretty sure.